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nacradriver

And So It Begins

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Excellent - the house is on fire so we need to concentrate on WHO* started it.

*pun intended.

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Another help the White House with a diversion and a spurious claim divorced from national response that will go no where. 

Republican Governor Parson no shelter-in-place order in place until 6 April, after resisting the move for weeks. Even then loopholes for non-essential businesses to remain open, and undermined his own policy, calling it a “piece of paper”. Medical experts and local leaders within his state pleaded with him to take action as the number of cases rose.

Ranking in slow inadequate response high.

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34 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Another help the White House with a diversion and a spurious claim divorced from national response that will go no where. 

Republican Governor Parson no shelter-in-place order in place until 6 April, after resisting the move for weeks. Even then loopholes for non-essential businesses to remain open, and undermined his own policy, calling it a “piece of paper”. Medical experts and local leaders within his state pleaded with him to take action as the number of cases rose.

Ranking in slow inadequate response high.

Let me guess, you are a regular guest over in the PA thread title Fuck the Republicans...

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3 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

Let me guess, you are a regular guest over in the PA thread title Fuck the Republican...

Never been to that sewer. Just a factual observation and I'm not American so couldn't give a shit really red or blue though politically I'm more red than blue so call it very impartial.

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PA is only a sewer if you post bullshit. Educated and informative posts are treated accordingly otherwise expect to get skewered like a shish kabob. Also it helps to put some folks on ignore - Mikey is the poster boy for that.

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I stay away from PA to protect my sanity. Those guys would eat me alive.

Sometimes it’s at risk her too.

Republicans and Democrats I know are equally appalled at both parties right now, but the President is leaving them in the dust.

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

Excellent - the house is on fire so we need to concentrate on WHO* started it.

*pun intended.

Rather: let's debate the water bill. 

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1 hour ago, nacradriver said:

First in what may be a long line of many

Missouri AG files lawsuit against the Chinese government over COVID-19 response

https://www.kmov.com/news/missouri-ag-files-lawsuit-against-chinese-government-over-covid-19-response/article_69a5ffd8-83ee-11ea-8146-e302081d5c03.html

China will be a bit hard to collect from but just wait until the suits against politicians, the media, employers, et al get going.  The big firms are probably gearing up for it.

I got COVID from the pizza guy.  Let's sue Papa John's! 

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27 minutes ago, Jules said:

China will be a bit hard to collect from but just wait until the suits against politicians, the media, employers, et al get going.  The big firms are probably gearing up for it.

I got COVID from the pizza guy.  Let's sue Papa John's! 

Add these fancy new tracing apps to that thought and your chances are soaring.

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34 minutes ago, Jules said:

China will be a bit hard to collect from but just wait until the suits against politicians, the media, employers, et al get going.  The big firms are probably gearing up for it.

I got COVID from the pizza guy.  Let's sue Papa John's! 

I am going to sue Honda.  That is the car the guy drove up in and they have deeper pockets. :lol:

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34 minutes ago, Jules said:

I got COVID from the pizza guy.  

Won't work. Many deranged sluts have got the clap from pizza guys but none have ever been able to prove it.

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

PA is only a sewer if you post bullshit. Educated and informative posts are treated accordingly otherwise expect to get skewered like a shish kabob. Also it helps to put some folks on ignore - Mikey is the poster boy for that.

I must pop over for a look and what Happy Jacks theroy on the Virus is. I am sure it started with 'The Virus is just the flu' and 'Donald says its just one case' to fawning about how lucky the US is to have such a great president during these troubled times. Wait - aren't Mormons immune from the virus? 

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16 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

I must pop over for a look and what Happy Jacks theroy on the Virus is. I am sure it started with 'The Virus is just the flu' and 'Donald says its just one case' to fawning about how lucky the US is to have such a great president during these troubled times. Wait - aren't Mormons immune from the virus? 

If you really want to dive down the rabbit hole just read Mikey Woofsey but don't go alone or without proper precautions = meaning booze and drugs.

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3 hours ago, nacradriver said:

First in what may be a long line of many

Missouri AG files lawsuit against the Chinese government over COVID-19 response

https://www.kmov.com/news/missouri-ag-files-lawsuit-against-chinese-government-over-covid-19-response/article_69a5ffd8-83ee-11ea-8146-e302081d5c03.html

" Chinese authorities deceived the public, suppressed crucial information, arrested whistleblowers, denied ..."

Gee I wonder how many countries you could sub in for "Chinese" in that sentence.

There is a reason the US is unwilling to sign on to any supranational judicial authorities ..."  After the court ruled that the United States’ covert war against Nicaragua was in violation of international law, the United States withdrew from compulsory jurisdiction in 1986 to accept the court's jurisdiction only on a discretionary basis.... However, such enforcement is subject to the veto power of the five permanent members of the Council, which the United States used in the Nicaragua case.”

If the US or constituent elements believe they have a case against China then by all means sue...but first rejoin the community of nations that honour the International Court of Justice. Of course there might be a few that line up to sue the US...say maybe for the misuse of ordinance in Yemen...or....

It does seem clear China misreported at least initially information re. Covid 19, and probably is currently under reporting. On that basis today's news would suggest the UK is an even greater offender of under counting and under reporting...Oh and any one who actually believes US data is representative...has clearly not been noticing the lack of testing for the US numbers to actually be near the total ...

Probably a pretty good case to be made against the US administration ineptitude and inaction but surely that noise can wait until we at least get past the first wave

 

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42 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Won't work. Many deranged sluts have got the clap from pizza guys but none have ever been able to prove it.

Did they have an App?

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Won't work. Many deranged sluts have got the clap from pizza guys but none have ever been able to prove it.

I’ve seen several film shorts depicting such things

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31 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I’ve seen several film shorts depicting such things

I dare not ask?

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 There’s a friendly place or two on the web that’s always playing the pizza delivery guy movies. Different “talent”, same ending

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

If you really want to dive down the rabbit hole just read Mikey Woofsey but don't go alone or without proper precautions = meaning booze and drugs.

:lol: I don’t do ignore, as yet, but Mikey has really jumped the shark on this. Makes Trump look reasonable...

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

:lol: I don’t do ignore, as yet, but Mikey has really jumped the shark on this. Makes Trump look reasonable...

Mikie Woof Woof is an acquired taste...  He is like the cousin that comes over during the holidays and..........  well as my mother would say "bless his little head."

I wouldn't mind drinking some beer with him..

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2 hours ago, nacradriver said:

Mikie Woof Woof is an acquired taste...  He is like the cousin that comes over during the holidays and..........  well as my mother would say "bless his little head."

I wouldn't mind drinking some beer with him..

Usually I would agree with you, normally enjoy his rants. But at the moment he is more like the old unmarried uncle that turns up, gets pissed, insults everyone, then shits his pants while sitting on the best chair after falling asleep.

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7 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Did they have an App?

Yep.

Pizza Pizza- App Design – Jessica Rasmussen

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2 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Yep.

Pizza Pizza- App Design – Jessica Rasmussen

only counts if there is a "Large salami" option

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8 hours ago, KC375 said:

It does seem clear China misreported at least initially information re. Covid 19, and probably is currently under reporting.

Probably a pretty good case to be made against the US administration ineptitude and inaction but surely that noise can wait until we at least get past the first wave..

What the Missouri AG has filed is hilarious. Declares Chinese misreporting ceased on 11 January and Missouri ''shelter-in-place" order was issued on 6 April.

Anyone getting sued for the missing 3 months or can't they find those months??

Can't see Donald sitting in Nuremburg..sorry the Hague.:lol:

 

 

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11 hours ago, Gissie said:

Usually I would agree with you, normally enjoy his rants. But at the moment he is more like the old unmarried uncle that turns up, gets pissed, insults everyone, then shits his pants while sitting on the best chair after falling asleep.

There is a drug I mean an APP for that :lol::)

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21 hours ago, KC375 said:

There is a reason the US is unwilling to sign on to any supranational judicial authorities ..."  After the court ruled that the United States’ covert war against Nicaragua was in violation of international law, the United States withdrew from compulsory jurisdiction in 1986 to accept the court's jurisdiction only on a discretionary basis.... However, such enforcement is subject to the veto power of the five permanent members of the Council, which the United States used in the Nicaragua case.”

If the US or constituent elements believe they have a case against China then by all means sue...but first rejoin the community of nations that honour the International Court of Justice. Of course there might be a few that line up to sue the US...say maybe for the misuse of ordinance in Yemen...or....

You don't seem to understand . .

The USG does not accept Intl law on a "discretionary basis." They reject it in toto. Ask John Bolton, or check out the hilarious Hague Invasion Act. 

Being Exceptional means that we (US) get to sue them; but they cannot sue us 

And the US was guilty as sin in the case of Nicaragua in the 1980's - mass murder by the US govt. went totally unpunished; and it happened again with the Invasion of Iraq in 2003; torture in Iraq and Afghanistan; openly violating the NPT. It is a very lengthy list. 

Vets For Peace (but this post is from me alone) 

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22 hours ago, KC375 said:

 

Gee I wonder how many countries you could sub in for "Chinese" in that sentence.

 

In this magnitude... not many

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49 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

You don't seem to understand . .

The USG does not accept Intl law on a "discretionary basis." They reject it in toto. Ask John Bolton, or check out the hilarious Hague Invasion Act. 

Being Exceptional means that we (US) get to sue them; but they cannot sue us 

And the US was guilty as sin in the case of Nicaragua in the 1980's - mass murder by the US govt. went totally unpunished; and it happened again with the Invasion of Iraq in 2003; torture in Iraq and Afghanistan; openly violating the NPT. It is a very lengthy list. 

Vets For Peace (but this post is from me alone) 

To much of the “west” the US is like a big brother who protected you through high school, for which you are eternally grateful. But now that you are both a bit older you think he act’s like a dick at times, made all the worse by your previous adulation...but at the end of the day he’s still family you just wish he wouldn’t embarrass you among the community of nations.

My (actual not figurative) brother has done a lot of “rule of law” work, mostly in post conflict situations, for the UN and other international organization, NGOs and QANGOs in the Balkans, Afghanistan, and Africa...much of it sponsored or partly funded by the US.  As he says “What? You would have preferred the Soviet Union won the cold war?”...well that kind of trumps all else (except maybe Trump)...but you can still wish for better.

After winning the cold war the US had a few unchallenged decades to role model norms of behaviour for a dominant supper power. Unfortunately for the US and the rest of the world the behavioural norms of the US are not ones we will want China and possibly India following. As I remind my two youngest (Americans), and my American friends among the 56% nonMAGA...it’s up to you to rescue your fellow citizens from / persuade to leave the dark side.

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3 minutes ago, KC375 said:

My (actual not figurative) brother has done a lot of “rule of law” work, mostly in post conflict situations, for the UN and other international organization, NGOs and QANGOs in the Balkans, Afghanistan, and Africa...much of it sponsored or partly funded by the US.  As he says “What? You would have preferred the Soviet Union won the cold war?”...well that kind of trumps all else (except maybe Trump)...but you can still wish for better.

Well, your brother has a point, just not a very good one. 

The apologists for the US national security blob used to make that argument all the time - that their vicious assaults on the innocent were justified because the USSR was worse. But run that by the Iranians (1953) and Guatemaltecas (1954), and lots of others who paid the price for that US arrogance and see what kind of reaction you get. 

And yes, in some ways, US international behavior after the Cold War is even worse. 

What the hell are we doing in Yemen allied with Saudi ? 

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47 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Well, your brother has a point, just not a very good one. 

The apologists for the US national security blob used to make that argument all the time - that their vicious assaults on the innocent were justified because the USSR was worse. But run that by the Iranians (1953) and Guatemaltecas (1954), and lots of others who paid the price for that US arrogance and see what kind of reaction you get. 

And yes, in some ways, US international behavior after the Cold War is even worse. 

What the hell are we doing in Yemen allied with Saudi ? 

I'm sorry if my post came across as propaganda for foggy bottom and langley...a lot of evil has come from there, some of it well intentioned application of quick fixes to difficult problems that made the problems worse. I'm sure you've read Legacy of Ashes which covers some of those disasters. Well there is much to criticize, I believe in trying to keep perspective. Were it not for the Marshall plan...were it not for the US in Nato and Norad...some of us who enjoy the luxury of being sanctimonious would probably not be living in democracies with market economies. Unfortunately thanks to the US many who were in emerging democracies stopped being in democracies (as recently as 2013 with Morsi in Egypt). One of my business partners is a south American who resists visiting the US, the country that imposed dictatorship on his youth.

What are you doing in Yemen...well I think you are right to look to Mosaddegh and 1953. Kermit Roosevelt did the US no favour. In choosing to steal a few oil wells the US ended up forgoing a relationship with a society reaching back to the Persian empire and instead chose one dominated by fundamentalist Bedouin tribesmen with values still in the stone age...and that gets you to made in the USA ordnance killing innocents in Yemen. I can both love the US for the freedoms and standard of living it allows me while rueing the evil it sometimes rains down on innocents.

 

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14 minutes ago, KC375 said:

I can both love the US for the freedoms and standard of living it allows me while rueing the evil it sometimes rains down on innocents.

 

^ This. It has become the norm to forget the first part and labour on about the second. As your friend said, it would have been a very changed world had the Cold War ended differently. 

But a new Cold War is brewing with the emergence of China. Not the same rules, less sabre rattling, more economic jousting. The outcome this time could go very wrong for those interested in a vestige of democracy. 

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6 minutes ago, Gissie said:

...

But a new Cold War is brewing with the emergence of China. Not the same rules, less sabre rattling, more economic jousting. The outcome this time could go very wrong for those interested in a vestige of democracy. 

That is what keeps me awake at night. That is why I urge my children to spend time in China (and also to a lesser extent India) to understand the  powers that will shape their world in their lifetime. China like the soviet union is party driven state. Unlike the Soviet Union, China has size and a succesful economy so a much stronger competitor. (Note there will be some issues as the one child policy demographic issues plays out)....walking away from the transpacific partnership was such a strategic blunder...

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

That is what keeps me awake at night. That is why I urge my children to spend time in China (and also to a lesser extent India) to understand the  powers that will shape their world in their lifetime. China like the soviet union is party driven state. Unlike the Soviet Union, China has size and a succesful economy so a much stronger competitor. (Note there will be some issues as the one child policy demographic issues plays out)....walking away from the transpacific partnership was such a strategic blunder...

China is also making use of the blind hatred of Trump to quietly push forward with its own dodgy stuff. Most of the world, including the US, rails against everything the orange man does. Meanwhile the true bogey man slides around the edges un-noticed.

As for the transpac partnership. Best thing for us and probably Aus as the US were just being demanding assholes wanting full protection of their major industries. Also, from memory Hills was going to drop out as well due to push back on their demands. Hope my memory is correct or I will need my flameproof suit on.

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6 hours ago, KC375 said:

..some of us who enjoy the luxury of being sanctimonious would probably not be living in democracies with market economies. Unfortunately thanks to the US many who were in emerging democracies stopped being in democracies (as re

First, I want to say that I respect what you are writing, and I read it with close attention. 

Secondly, are you saying that it is merely coincidental that nearly all of those US interventions just happened to all be on the side of the authoritarian reactionary right?  

Ask your Chilean friend

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10 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

... are you saying that it is merely coincidental that nearly all of those US interventions just happened to all be on the side of the authoritarian reactionary right?  

Ask your Chilean friend

My colleague was not Chilean but I’ve met many Chileans who share his antipathy to the US. Although interestingly I’ve also met some who feel the US saved them from communism.

I think a lot of the dumber US foreign policy interventions from WWII until the 90s were very reminiscent of the carpenter whose only tool is a hammer, every problem becomes a nail.

There was real reason to fear one party communisim or the soviet union’s expansion efforts. Looking at quality of life in South Korea compared to North Korea suggests that was worth taking seriously.

If you are a passionate gung ho action oriented adventuresome young man (i.e. CIA) and the evil, godless, red commies are the enemy ...then anything that smells like a broader role for government (say like Scandinavian countries today) smells like selling out to the Russians.

If you want to make a difference right now and you don’t have a long view of history or much thought about unintended consequences then nondemocratic changes of government seem an appealing approach.

With those starting conditions its easy to see how “left of center governments” are more likely to be the targets of intervention rather than right wing authoritarian ones.

I think many unfortunate American foreign policy blunders started out as well intentioned efforts at promoting US self interest and values, combined with poor judgement and impatience. Too often those blunders were perpetuated to avoid embarrassment. (How many more died in Vietnam after the first Whitehouse briefing that the war police action was unwinnable). The US got so very much right in post WWII Germany and Japan its fascinating that those lesson were not adequately ingrained in future interventions.

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

My colleague was not Chilean

A while back we had two high school exchange students in our home - great kids. Later we visited Chile to attend their weddings; it is a country of proud feisty people and great natural beauty. 

In my opinion, all gringos should know about the REAL history of their country - not just that which has been whitewashed. 

Two of the better authors on the subject are William Blum (ex-CIA) and Chalmers Johnson (also in Vets For Peace) 

Both have passed away, but their books live on. Both were as feisty as Chileans. 

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30 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

A while back we had two high school exchange students in our home - great kids. Later we visited Chile to attend their weddings; it is a country of proud feisty people and great natural beauty. 

In my opinion, all gringos should know about the REAL history of their country - not just that which has been whitewashed. 

Two of the better authors on the subject are William Blum (ex-CIA) and Chalmers Johnson (also in Vets For Peace) 

Both have passed away, but their books live on. Both were as feisty as Chileans. 

I love the US and I wish more Americans understood the mixed impact of past (and current) foreign policy. I think my previous post that painted some blunders as merely well intentioned boy scouts acting impulsively may have played down some aspects of money/economics/commercial self interest in US adventurism. I think there is a mix of trying to do the right thing for the right reasons and just getting it wrong but also what is the expedient thing to do for the money. Would the US be in bed with a Wahhabi regime and absolute monarchies in the gulf states were it not for oil? How did the US end up more or less picking sides in a dispute about who are the true successors to Mohammad? Is that something Americans should die for or US ordinances should be deployed on behalf of?

Sometimes the interventions really makes a positive difference – Balkans would be a very different place without the interventions in the 90s...probably the effect was improved by it being a multinational (NATO) intervention.

But greed shouldn’t be excluded. I sometimes thought of running for office but kept coming back to why be a politician when you can own one. (Unfortunately I’ve not put myself in a position to counteract the Koch money). Many interventions were about securing oil and or protecting “western” assets even though those assets may not have been obtained under the fairest terms. But sometimes the US did the opposite...see stopping the Brits and French from taking back the Suez canal. The US really did play a positive role in supporting and accelerating decolonisation (of other countries empires) after WWII. On the other hand you have the overthrow of Hawaiian Kingdom and eventual annexation in 1898 through the efforts in Central America on behalf of United Fruit et al, where business and economics have been driving forces, often wrapped up or hidden behind the need to save the world from the red menace.

It is a messy messy world and you can never know what would have happened if you didn’t do xyz... How differently would things have played out if the US had supported democracy the process rather than a particular side/outcome in Iran, in Egypt, in the Congo, in south and central America?

Vietnam was a costly blunder much more to the locals than to the US but as far as long run and wide spread damage its hard to find  worse than the overthrow of Mossadegh.

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In short: the success of "Banana Republic" as a brand is proof-positive that 99.44% of Americans know fuck-all about their own history.

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On 4/23/2020 at 1:57 PM, fastyacht said:

In short: the success of "Banana Republic" as a brand is proof-positive that 99.44% of Americans know fuck-all about their own history.

Or are comfortable with the “banana republic” business model applied to international affairs...some people believe the role of foggy bottom is simply to maximize short term (i.e. one generation) economic outcomes for the US, US companies, US investors...that is a model with thousands of years behind it...it is really only since WWI that the idea of a more "enlightened" approach has been around – the idea of doing good for good's sake and or the idea that being a leading power in a better world is better for the leading power than being a dominating power in a mutually impoverishing world.

Before there was “America First” or “Make America Great Again” there was manifest destiny, there was the British Empire, The Dutch East India Company, The Roman Empire (in the self interest of Rome but Pax Romana did a lot of good)...Akkadian empire.....

The idea of doing right now the right thing for yourself and your people is really the norm of history rather than the idea of holistically how to make the world a better place so we all benefit

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I remember Banana Republic as a catalog. It had hand drawings of surplos clothing found around the world. The most astounding one I will never forget? Khakis from Spain under Franco--in surplus!

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