Controversial_posts

Most egregious cheats?

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Inspired by my own trolling comments on the Keel mod thread, what are some of the most over the top (or maybe under the radar) examples of sailboat racing cheating over the years?

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Water ballast in IOR boats in the AC. 

Williwaw, Louisiana Crude and Acadia cheat in SORC in the 80's

Italian J-24s with lowered mast steps to increase rake in the 80s

Donald Crowhusrt doing donuts off Brazil, reporting false positions  while he was supposed to go around the world. Of course that one did not end well.  

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So not sure it was cheating or accepted by the rating board but...

When I was racing a New York 36 there was one here that was way faster than our old girl which was pretty dialed in.

One day at the yard I noticed the fast NY36 hauled.

Deep Keel

deeper custom rudder

carbon rig and bulkheads I was told

We rated the same 

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29 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

what are some of the most ... under the radar ... examples of sailboat racing cheating over the years?

Stacking.

If you talk with racers about this, all too many don’t even know that Rule 51 exists. More than a few of the remainder quietly acknowledge cheating engaging in the practice, but defend it on the basis that “everyone else does it” and “the Rule is unenforceable”. Of course, the first ‘argument’ is not true and the second could also be said about using the engine ...

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US Olympic Finn trials in 1984. Have a throw out to spare, so start way prematurely and camp all over your only threat to dive him to the back of the pack and insure your series win.

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Beer ballast

 

Ballast.jpg

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The cheats at the high end of the sport are bad enough, but it's the local yocal races that get me.  Why in the hell would folks cheat against their fellow club members, neighbors, etc.?  Examples:

 On the Chesapeake, a guy was rated with a fixed 3 blade prop. He had a midseason haulout and another local sailor saw his folding 2 blade martec, and checked up on him.  Banned from racing on the Bay for life.

Another Bay guy in a night race who shall remain notoriously nameless for his rule breaking reputation. Turned his running lights off in an upwind night race that was moonless, windy, and very dark, black hulled boat (for those who know the Bay, what black hulled series of boats come to mind with green trim? This was before he got really big boats, this one a 40 footer).  We saw him fortunately at the last second to avoid a t-bone. As we crossed we yelled where's your running lights, his reply, "that's stealth". 

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9 minutes ago, bgytr said:

On the Chesapeake, a guy was rated with a fixed 3 blade prop. He had a midseason haulout and another local sailor saw his folding 2 blade martec, and checked up on him.  Banned from racing on the Bay for life.

Surprised anyone called him on it. I know know of at least three boats out of spec with the sails/equipment claimed on their phrf certs, and sometimes people whisper, but I have never heard of a protest on it.

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1 minute ago, Controversial_posts said:

Surprised anyone called him on it. I know know of at least three boats out of spec with the sails/equipment claimed on their phrf certs, and sometimes people whisper, but I have never heard of a protest on it.

A 3 blade fixed vs a folding prop in light to medium winds such as the Chesapeake is killer.  If you don't nab the cheating f**kers you get what you deserve, just like in business and politics.

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1 minute ago, Controversial_posts said:

For sure, but how did they go about it? Protest at end of a race, or take pictures and contact phrf? Seems the kind of thing to cause no end of local controversy.

The prop was back in the IOR days.  From what I heard the protester was a buddy of one of the local racing officials, called him up and he came down to the boatyard.  Done deal right there.

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22 minutes ago, bgytr said:

Another Bay guy in a night race who shall remain notoriously nameless for his rule breaking reputation. Turned his running lights off in an upwind night race that was moonless, windy, and very dark, black hulled boat (for those who know the Bay, what black hulled series of boats come to mind with green trim? This was before he got really big boats, this one a 40 footer). 

Karma took care of that though... (and the Chesapeake tunnel and whales)

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52 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Beer ballast

 

Ballast.jpg

Ha, "provisions!"  I crewed on such a boat, thankfully on deck

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36 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

Surprised anyone called him on it. I know know of at least three boats out of spec with the sails/equipment claimed on their phrf certs, and sometimes people whisper, but I have never heard of a protest on it.

As bgytr implies, sailing is a self-policing sport. But all too often, people just shrug and blame the race committee.

1 hour ago, Cristoforo said:

Wow  20 seconds early and told people  he would do it beforehand  

It was all the other guy’s fault:rolleyes:

45 minutes ago, bgytr said:

(F)or those who know the Bay, what black hulled series of boats come to mind with green trim?

getImage.gif?ID=100000474

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In'82, I did Newport - Bermuda on Flyway, X-Williwaw (Peterson 48, IIRC) that cheated the tilt test in the rule with lead shots in the spreader tips to appear more tippy than she would otherwise have been.  DC was driving Williwaw at the time, and proclaimed innocence of any knowledge of this.  BN fell on his sword and took one for the team.

https://www.nytimes.com/1981/07/24/sports/owner-of-williwaw-banned-for-2-years.html

Harvey Ward, the professional captain of Williwaw, one of the country's foremost ocean-racing yachts, has admitted cheating, and the 48-foot sloop's owner, Seymore Sinett of Plainfield, N.J., has been suspended for two years, the sport's governing body disclosed yesterday.

 

Sinett was disqualified effective July 15 in what is believed to be the most severe penalty ever handed out in yacht racing. Dennis Conner, who skippered Williwaw in the Southern Ocean Racing Conference last winter, was found ''to have no involvement in the rating compliance failure,'' according to a statement issued by the United States Yacht Racing Union. Conner also was the helmsman of Freedom, which won the America's Cup last fall.

 

The action was the result of a 14-week investigation by a special three-man committee appointed by the Yacht Racing Union to determine why the handicap ratings of the yachts Williwaw and Acadia rose substantially when they were remeasured after the Southern Conference ended. Williwaw's rating rose a foot and Acadia's increased 1.2 feet, prompting the removal of both from the United States team in the Admiral's Cup series, which begins in England next week. Burt Keenan of Lafayette, La., Acadia's owner, was given a continuance by the Yacht Racing Union until Aug. 1. After that, the union will issue a ruling. Used Hose to Fill Bilges

 
 

Ward, who was the paid hand responsible for staying with the boat and maintaining it, testified that, before the handicap measurement of the boat last July, he had used a hose to fill the bilges with water ballast and that extra gear, not normally carried when racing, was placed on board.

 

Ward, who had left Sinett's employ last month, told Robin Glover, chief measurer for the international Offshore Racing Council, who is acting in the union's behalf, that he had added the water and the extra gear in Sinett's presence.

 

Sinett heatedly denied this yesterday and asserted he had no knowledge of any extra weight being added to the boat. Nevertheless, under Section 19 of the rules of yacht racing, the owner is held solely responsible for the validity of the yacht's rating certificate. In issuing its statement, the Yacht Racing Union said it found Williwaw's rating discrepancy to be ''substantial and without mitigating circumstances.'' 2,400 Extra Pounds

 
 
  • Thanks for reading The Times.
Subscribe to The Times
 

It is possible to load a boat so that it floats deep and heavy for its official handicap measurement and then to remove some weight for racing.

 

The yacht racing union said that 2,400 pounds of weight were added to Williwaw for its July 1980 measurement, but that the boat didn't race the Southern circuit with this weight. The racing union determined this amount by viewing the full hull lines of the boat on a computer screen and comparing them with the measurement points on the boat's rating certificate.

 

Sinett said the only reason the boat was remeasured in July, after its original measurement in May, was ''because we had a lot of new fittings on the deck. We reinforced the whole thing and this put on a lot of weight.''

 

He said that there was not extra gear and that it was impossible to put much water in the bilge because the floorboards are close to the bottom. He also said that, if there had been water in the bilge when the boat was measured, it would have affected the boat's righting moment, a factor that is measured for the rating certificate, but it didn't, he said. Yacht's Owner Banned

 

The owner of the top ocean-racing yacht Williwaw was banned by the Yacht Racing Union for two years for handicap irregularities. A21.

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The stories of IOR cheating were legion.  And ultimately helped kill off the top end series races of that era.  

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Did the Gloucester Schooner race, and it was light air.  Owner ran the boat with the engine on until just before the start, when he shut it off.  Since we were the only really good light air boa, we would have won handily probably, without him doing this.  No cheers, just jeers at the Awards, and most of us never set foot on his deck again.

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1 hour ago, Al Paca said:

Australia II

 

The winged keel was brilliant, and not illegal!  Followed those races driving the smaller Boomerang with owners guests, and still have the syndicate flag...

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34 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

Did the Gloucester Schooner race, and it was light air.  Owner ran the boat with the engine on until just before the start, when he shut it off.  Since we were the only really good light air boa, we would have won handily probably, without him doing this.  No cheers, just jeers at the Awards, and most of us never set foot on his deck again.

???

If the engine was off before the start what was the problem?

What is someone arrived late and had to motor out to make the start?

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

???

If the engine was off before the start what was the problem?

What is someone arrived late and had to motor out to make the start?

Motorized propulsion off at the prep.  

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Don't forget the Thomas-I Pumped er...  I-Punkt affair...

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Gran Prix racing, where measurement is a battle and can be cheated by subterfuge is to be expected, just like in the Tour De France, Formula One and stock car racing.

But cheating in PHRF club racing raises my hackles.  There's way too many participants that sign their cert knowing full well they're not in compliance  To wit (in a light air venue):

  • A boat that removed their prop and did the summer series by sailing in/out of their dock.
  • Same boat using spinnakers that were 3' long on the luff & 4' long on the foot, with a pole that was 2' oversize. 
  • Same boat boat running a 165% light #1 genoa without  declaring it. 
  • Same boat with a new main with oversized roach so he couldn't tack without slacking the backstay.
  • Same boat ripped out all the doors, cabinetry, stove, toilet & batteries (1 Group 24 for the race).

This boat is a season champ apparently because of superior sailing skills.  How can that be?  Well, he's on the PHRF rating committee so no one would dare challenge him concerning "minor" issues.

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1 hour ago, blurocketsmate said:

Ha, "provisions!"  I crewed on such a boat, thankfully on deck

Only one can of sprite ? 

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34 minutes ago, axolotl said:

But cheating in PHRF club racing raises my hackles.  There's way too many participants that sign their cert knowing full well they're not in compliance  To wit (in a light air venue):

The only solution is to name and shame.

But if we are not willing to even do that on an anonymous internet forum, there’s no chance of calling them to account in person. And it’s demoralizing the honest sailors.

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55 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

What an idiot. Do you even sail? Everyone thinks you’re an asshole. I checked with them.   Go back to PA 

And read RRS 42

If you can read  

Jerk with 51, 000 posts and no friends and internet muscles  

 

(Typical Sloopy statements) 

:lol:

We all know you're an asshole - no need to keep reinforcing it.

I don't race by the way.

If you ever went near the sailing forums you'd know exactly what kind of boat I have - and the ones I used to have over the past 45 years.

Off to the phantom zone moron.

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We had one special Schock 35 rated 90.  It was purportedly known as the shallow draft version.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

???

If the engine was off before the start what was the problem?

What is someone arrived late and had to motor out to make the start?

 

He intentionally ran the motor to hit line at the start going faster than the other Schooners, who were sailing without power assist just before the start.  We did not arrive late.  He did this to hit the line at speed that others did not have.  I don't recall if he shut down the donk at the prescribed time limit, but the intention to cheat if possible was there, for everyone to see.  And we would have won without cheating likely, because most schooner SUCK going to weather in light air.  This one was particularly good at it...................

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39 minutes ago, axolotl said:

Gran Prix racing, where measurement is a battle and can be cheated by subterfuge is to be expected, just like in the Tour De France, Formula One and stock car racing.

But cheating in PHRF club racing raises my hackles.  There's way too many participants that sign their cert knowing full well they're not in compliance  To wit (in a light air venue):

  • A boat that removed their prop and did the summer series by sailing in/out of their dock.
  • Same boat using spinnakers that were 3' long on the luff & 4' long on the foot, with a pole that was 2' oversize. 
  • Same boat boat running a 165% light #1 genoa without  declaring it. 
  • Same boat with a new main with oversized roach so he couldn't tack without slacking the backstay.
  • Same boat ripped out all the doors, cabinetry, stove, toilet & batteries (1 Group 24 for the race).

This boat is a season champ apparently because of superior sailing skills.  How can that be?  Well, he's on the PHRF rating committee so no one would dare challenge him concerning "minor" issues.

Can't you get a local measurer to confirm sail dimensions?

if the sail measurements are that much different from the declared ones the local PHRF database should automatically spit out the adjustments to the base rating upon submission.  No need to discuss what or what is not a minor issue.  No discussion at all actually.  At least, I believe that is how our local PHRF works.  is yours significantly different in approach?

A bit or a lot different when it comes to hull and foil mods.  That is much more subjective.

But as far as sail dimensions go, it should be pretty straight forward.

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51 minutes ago, axolotl said:

Gran Prix racing, where measurement is a battle and can be cheated by subterfuge is to be expected, just like in the Tour De France, Formula One and stock car racing.

But cheating in PHRF club racing raises my hackles.  There's way too many participants that sign their cert knowing full well they're not in compliance  To wit (in a light air venue):

  • A boat that removed their prop and did the summer series by sailing in/out of their dock.
  • Same boat using spinnakers that were 3' long on the luff & 4' long on the foot, with a pole that was 2' oversize. 
  • Same boat boat running a 165% light #1 genoa without  declaring it. 
  • Same boat with a new main with oversized roach so he couldn't tack without slacking the backstay.
  • Same boat ripped out all the doors, cabinetry, stove, toilet & batteries (1 Group 24 for the race).

This boat is a season champ apparently because of superior sailing skills.  How can that be?  Well, he's on the PHRF rating committee so no one would dare challenge him concerning "minor" issues.

You gotta protest a major cheat like that.  Get him removed from racing or blame yourself.

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8 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

He intentionally ran the motor to hit line at the start going faster than the other Schooners, who were sailing without power assist just before the start.  We did not arrive late.  He did this to hit the line at speed that others did not have.  I don't recall if he shut down the donk at the prescribed time limit, but the intention to cheat if possible was there, for everyone to see.  And we would have won without cheating likely, because most schooner SUCK going to weather in light air.  This one was particularly good at it...................

Well, if he did shut it down in time, then what he did was perfectly legit and sounds like a smart albeit non-Corinthian strategy.

Crikes, you must be in an area that has few truly light air days.  I think just about everyone has tried to pull that one off many times in our area.  Gun the engine then shut her off at the prep.

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2 minutes ago, bgytr said:

You gotta protest a major cheat like that.  Get him removed from racing or blame yourself.

+1

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1 minute ago, 12 metre said:

Well, if he did shut it down in time, then what he did was perfectly legit and sounds like a smart if a bit non-Corinthian strategy.

 

It was years ago, but I don't think he shut it off soon enough, but even if he did, it was certainly Non- Corinthian.  This was the only Schooner in the fleet that was a light air performer. Enough so, that myself and 2 or more other crew members never set foot on that boat ever again.......

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17 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

Well, if he did shut it down in time, then what he did was perfectly legit and sounds like a smart albeit non-Corinthian strategy.

Crikes, you must be in an area that has few truly light air days.  I think just about everyone has tried to pull that one off many times in our area.  Gun the engine then shut her off at the prep.

Did he turn the propulsion off at prep or right at the start?

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I recall a certain J-125 that could not keep a steady relationship with the same propeller.  Went through at least three break ups.

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One of the positives for ORC is that it discourages lying to some extent.  Unlike PHRF, where you know that going just an inch over on some measurement is huge 3 or 6 sec hit, with measurement rules its more difficult for the skipper to see specific “penalties”, so he’s maybe more incentivized  to report accurate numbers.

It also helps that the sailmakers’ reputation is on the line with sail measurements.

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12 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

One of the positives for ORC is that it discourages lying to some extent.  Unlike PHRF, where you know that going just an inch over on some measurement is huge 3 or 6 sec hit, with measurement rules its more difficult for the skipper to see specific “penalties”, so he’s maybe more incentivized  to report accurate numbers.

It also helps that the sailmakers reputation is on the line with sail measurements.

Compared to phrf, ORR ORC are all positive.

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Event cosponsors with enough corporate clout to clean slate rules re boat maintenance/conservative preservation of boat between legs despite OTHER participants being aware of the limitation and limiting themselves.  

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1 hour ago, Cristoforo said:

I don’t recall what happened there. Even if it ‘fell off’ accidentally, they were still sailing out of compliance with their certificate.  Nothing was done ? 

 

It happened on the way to Hawaii.  Twice, I believe. Motored out of the harbor to the start, towed in to Ala Wai after the finish.  Magic.

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59 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

Well if there is a guy who doesn’t know rules and the law, that’s him.  But I think he claimed it was just a practice sail. 

 

it's a joke son....

and what about that woman psychologist  who did the same

Quote

Same boat ripped out all the doors, cabinetry, stove, toilet 

 

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J Boats with (ultra?) high modulus Carbon masts and standard modulus IRC certificates.

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14 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

Is-this-OK-by-RRS-49.jpg

Excuse my racing ignorance here. Whats the rule being flaunted here? (Aiding sail directly/beyond confines of the deck/gear.. Pumping the sail?)

New to racing. Thanks. 

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31 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

Also having a minimum 3 point adjustment is stupid.  Why not 1 or 2 or 4 or 5 points? 3 points is 10% on a J111 versus 3 pct on a shitbox  they are racing against 

we had two requests for protests and asking for a physical measurement of 2 competitor boats sail dimensions. . Both protests were asked for by members of the area  PHRF Comm against boats they raced and lost against the weekend before.   With no basis  other than a hunch the sails were too big. You can't make this stuff up. Thats the best advertisement for ORR.  

 

Not all areas have min 3 sec hits.  Locally, we have sail area adjustments in 3 sec increments.  Other adjustments can be as little as 1 second.  i.e. a local Dash has a 1 sec adj for an open transom - not sure why other than just to do something.  Apparently the conversion actually added a bit of weight.  

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4 minutes ago, FixinGit said:
23 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

Is-this-OK-by-RRS-49.jpg

Excuse my racing ignorance here. Whats the rule being flaunted here? (Aiding sail directly/beyond confines of the deck/gear.. Pumping the sail?)

New to racing. Thanks. 

Crew substantially outside the lifelines, using the standing rigging for support.

I would guess they are getting ready either to gybe the spinnaker or take it down. If a takedown, the jib is not up yet so flying the guy (using the the human body as a spinnaker pole to get a few more moments of power out of the spinnaker) is really really premature.

The best cheat I personally have indulged in was taking the screws out of a competitors rudder, after he ran us down on the race course not once but twice then lied his ass off in a protest hearing. My wife was crewing with me and she dissuaded me from taking more strong and direct steps. In a way, this was better because it fucked him over for the whole travel series. >25 years ago so now I can tell it.....

FB- Doug

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not a racing cheat, but taxation: a guy hired his own crew & had a 40' Lapworth design built. Aluminum through out. Hollow keel profile, filled with tungsten (powder?millings?) in an oil solution. At some point after his death, kids can haul the boat, cut the keel open & have 4 tons of tungsten to sell. Fill the keel cavity back up with lead, re-launch boat.

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6 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Crew substantially outside the lifelines, using the standing rigging for support.

I would guess they are getting ready either to gybe the spinnaker or take it down. If a takedown, the jib is not up yet so flying the guy (using the the human body as a spinnaker pole to get a few more moments of power out of the spinnaker) is really really premature.

The best cheat I personally have indulged in was taking the screws out of a competitors rudder, after he ran us down on the race course not once but twice then lied his ass off in a protest hearing. My wife was crewing with me and she dissuaded me from taking more strong and direct steps. In a way, this was better because it fucked him over for the whole travel series. >25 years ago so now I can tell it.....

FB- Doug

Thanks for the explanation.

And the indirect heads up on justifiable vengeance for a running down. :D

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10 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

We tried to get 1 second increments but apparently it’s written in the Old Testament somewhere  we could not. Sometimes Change is hard for people who have been running a PHRF committee for 35 years and don’t race.  

I believe the 3 sec thing was derived from the old phrf handicaps based on minutes/mile rather than sec/mile.  PHRF handicap increments were .05 min/mile or 3 sec/mile.  For example my old HF 27 was 2.25 but when they went with sec/mile, it became 135

That was in the late 80s or early 90s in our area.

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2 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

"The best thing about cheating is it's like you win twice!"

  --Tom Blackaller

When Buddy Melges won the USYRU Sportsmanship trophy he was heard to say “sportsmanship is just cheatin’ fair” 

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Before it was known as IRC, it was called CHS. During that time, a 1/4 tonner here in Manila had the IOR bustle filled in.  So I asked the owner if he notified CHS for a new rating TCF? He snorted.  Went out and cleaned up. So I cleaned up his rating by notifying CHS with photos. 

his rating was adjusted upward, he shrugged his shoulders, then sold the P.O.S.!

did he learn? So he buys a Sydney36 from an owner that ran a pro program which under PYS awarded them a high rating. So rightly he asked his rating to be adjusted for an amateur crew. So done.  After several bad races, he asks for another adjustment. Well,,,ok, done. 

then, coming off the start line just to leeward of this boat, I noticed that his Genoa was sheeted to the gunnel and not to the proper inboard Genoa track.  Yup, you guessed it. Another adjustment request!  DENIED 

he later starts playing with the keel, again without notifying IRC.  By this point, he just could never win. No matter how he cheated. He just sucked as a sailor. He was not banned since sailing then was too small to loose a boat.  
 

we had another owner who sold his boat. That boat was weighed and came in 500kg lighter and the new owner was pissed.  This same owner later sold his second boat that turns out that Wire Shrouds were declared in the IRC Cert., not SS Rods that the boat is rigged with.  Huge rating increase for another new owner.  

And there is more.  So sad that one boat owner, refuses to race in a particular bay knowing the cheating that goes on.  And surprisingly, the amount of effort that goes into cheating could make one a better sailor.  

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6 hours ago, Al Paca said:

Australia II

Dennis Connor with a small television on board getting wind information from the broadcasting blimp in the sky.

Dennis Connor having wet sails down below on a windy day - sails he was never going to use.

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2 hours ago, FixinGit said:

Excuse my racing ignorance here. Whats the rule being flaunted here? (Aiding sail directly/beyond confines of the deck/gear.. Pumping the sail?)

New to racing. Thanks. 

it was discussed in this thread..  http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/214287-ticky-tack/   

basically hanging outside the lifelines holding onto the sheet..  permissible in certain circumstances

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49 minutes ago, George Hackett said:

The amount of effort that goes into cheating could make one a better sailor.  

^^^ This ^^^

2 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

But I think he claimed it was just a practice sail.

Practicing what, exactly? <_<

 

1 hour ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

[W]hat about that woman psychologist

Not a psychologist, although that was always implied. She had a Ph.D. in physiology (quite irrelevant to any of the issues she so freely opined on).

Is she still involved in racing? I hope not.

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22 minutes ago, Svanen said:

 

^^^ This ^^^

Practicing what, exactly? <_<

 

Not a psychologist, although that was always implied. She had a Ph.D. in physiology (quite irrelevant to any of the issues she so freely opined on).

Is she still involved in racing? I hope not.

I wondered when that would come up!

still involved, racing her J125 and not racing with Kenny

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2 hours ago, FixinGit said:

Excuse my racing ignorance here. Whats the rule being flaunted here? (Aiding sail directly/beyond confines of the deck/gear.. Pumping the sail?)

New to racing. Thanks. 

Only muscles being flaunted.

Not sure if any rule is being flouted.

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Saw my share of rule bending in  an effort to win however, personally I resisted temptation as I was always reminded of Paul Elevstoms sage words...

“You haven't won if, in doing so, you have lost the respect of your competitors.”

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24 chapters worth Of cheating and backstabbing up to Perth...

BAE928D9-3F06-46AF-B1E5-0535C5F902F1.jpeg

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26 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Only muscles being flaunted.

Not sure if any rule is being flouted.

Good pick up... Like my Rules knowledge, my English is lacking often two....... Fuck!.... ah well. :) 

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35 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:
3 hours ago, FixinGit said:

Excuse my racing ignorance here. Whats the rule being flaunted here? (Aiding sail directly/beyond confines of the deck/gear.. Pumping the sail?)

New to racing. Thanks. 

Only muscles being flaunted.

Not sure if any rule is being flouted. 

Currently rule 49 "Crew Position"

I think that's an older photo and this rule is one of the favorites to be re-written. Crew can't be in any position outside the lifelines, sails not to be sheeted outside the lifelines other than by a legal spar, unless specified by class rules (ie boats with a trapeze) crew cannot suspend their weight from the rigging.

At one point it was the fashion on Great Lakes J-24s to roll tack by having the bow & mast man swing outboard from the shrouds, the argument was made that they were only doing it momentarily and it was to "aid steering." I am not fond of J-24s anyway and this struck me as very dubious, did it anyway because you had to to not get buried on the first beat. Some time in the early 90s about 5 or 6 top J-24s got DSQ'd in one of the big races for it.

FB- Doug

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14 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Currently rule 49 "Crew Position"

I think that's an older photo and this rule is one of the favorites to be re-written. Crew can't be in any position outside the lifelines, sails not to be sheeted outside the lifelines other than by a legal spar, unless specified by class rules (ie boats with a trapeze) crew cannot suspend their weight from the rigging.

At one point it was the fashion on Great Lakes J-24s to roll tack by having the bow & mast man swing outboard from the shrouds, the argument was made that they were only doing it momentarily and it was to "aid steering." I am not fond of J-24s anyway and this struck me as very dubious, did it anyway because you had to to not get buried on the first beat. Some time in the early 90s about 5 or 6 top J-24s got DSQ'd in one of the big races for it.

FB- Doug

I cant find the reference to suspending weight off the rigging.

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We were racing across western L. Erie in 20kt+ in the early 2000s. I was on a Kirby 25 (LEPHRF 171) and a Shark (LEPHRF 228) just ROCKETED past us to the low side.... Sharks are good heavy air boats, but not that good. There were 2 guys on deck... 1 driving and one trimming the Genoa from the low side. another guy below on the low side. The boat was still pretty level and really fast despite flying a 155 and not depowering the main. When they passed us we could see what looked like a 55 gallon drum hanging just under the cabin top on the high side. I walked over and took the guys a beer after the race. They had an exceptionally large (probably 55 gal.) gas tank on a pulley system so they could lever it to the high side on each tack. They called it their "big air gas tank."

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2 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

I cant find the reference to suspending weight off the rigging.

As it's currently written, the wording is that the crew shall use nothing but hiking straps or battened shorts "to position their bodies outboard."  There's also Rule 42 "Propulsion" but that covers movement, not steady-state position of crew. It's standard practice, when gybing or dousing, to have a crew lean outboard and hold the guy while the pole is shifted, but this usually is only for 30 seconds or less.

I no longer have a library of old rule books except for my father's 1932 one autographed by Mike Vanderbilt, and that one has some -really- different rules in it although most of the basics are mostly the same.

 

4 minutes ago, ajbram said:

We were racing across western L. Erie in 20kt+ in the early 2000s. I was on a Kirby 25 (LEPHRF 171) and a Shark (LEPHRF 228) just ROCKETED past us to the low side.... Sharks are good heavy air boats, but not that good. There were 2 guys on deck... 1 driving and one trimming the Genoa from the low side. another guy below on the low side. The boat was still pretty level and really fast despite flying a 155 and not depowering the main. When they passed us we could see what looked like a 55 gallon drum hanging just under the cabin top on the high side. I walked over and took the guys a beer after the race. They had an exceptionally large (probably 55 gal.) gas tank on a pulley system so they could lever it to the high side on each tack. They called it their "big air gas tank."

 

I'm pretty sure that's not kosher.

I'm not the main rules guy here, though! And I don't want to be! I just come here to see pics of girls tits!

FB- Doug

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8 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Beer ballast

I could sort of sympathize if it was good beer. 

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10 hours ago, Mr Moab said:

Water ballast in IOR boats in the AC. 

Williwaw, Louisiana Crude and Acadia cheat in SORC in the 80's

Italian J-24s with lowered mast steps to increase rake in the 80s

Donald Crowhusrt doing donuts off Brazil, reporting false positions  while he was supposed to go around the world. Of course that one did not end well.  

Oh come on now, WTF, if your weren't pushing the window for IOR measuring you weren't there.  That was how the game was played on the Grand Prix circuit.  Loved when Blackaller came back after the Crude incident with the boat re-named Mea Culpa.

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9 hours ago, Al Paca said:

Australia II

Seriously?

Of course you can provide some facts to support that outrageous slur...

A2 Different? Yes. Illegal? No.

The skirts were raised at the finish for anyone to see snd guess what? Nobody successfully protested.

The USA team was totally caught napping, and A2 sailed by Aussie legends, outsailed the USA boat and won the Cup!

Fair and square.

Maybe you might like to retract, to avoid unnecessary future financial hardship?

 

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3 hours ago, cosmicsedso said:

Seriously?

Of course you can provide some facts to support that outrageous slur...

A2 Different? Yes. Illegal? No.

The skirts were raised at the finish for anyone to see snd guess what? Nobody successfully protested.

The USA team was totally caught napping, and A2 sailed by Aussie legends, outsailed the USA boat and won the Cup!

Fair and square.

Maybe you might like to retract, to avoid unnecessary future financial hardship?

 

liberty getting new measurement certificates between races.  I think the NYC tried to say the draft on A2 deepened when she heeled over so was illegal, what measurement doesn't change when the boat heels over. They knew they were fucked and tried anything to stay alive.  But all credit to DC he did make it a contest

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Much simpler where I live part of the year 

something about port tack 

 

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11 hours ago, longy said:

not a racing cheat, but taxation: a guy hired his own crew & had a 40' Lapworth design built. Aluminum through out. Hollow keel profile, filled with tungsten (powder?millings?) in an oil solution. At some point after his death, kids can haul the boat, cut the keel open & have 4 tons of tungsten to sell. Fill the keel cavity back up with lead, re-launch boat.

I doubt his insurance company will see things his way if it sinks.

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18 hours ago, Mr Moab said:

Water ballast in IOR boats in the AC. 

Williwaw, Louisiana Crude and Acadia cheat in SORC in the 80's

Italian J-24s with lowered mast steps to increase rake in the 80s

Donald Crowhusrt doing donuts off Brazil, reporting false positions  while he was supposed to go around the world. Of course that one did not end well.  

I've sailed a lot on a Hightension 36...(used in the one ton cup '78) two 200 liter water tanks (one on each side of the boat) with a valve inbetween... (we've never used it.)

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We (club not me)  had an oversized spinakker for 10 races in a series, protested every night, protest committee could not get the owner to bring the kit in for measure. When we finally said all your results are tossed, bring us the kite, it was "destroyed" in a training day incident the next morning. We actually kicked him out of the club.

Fixed certs and folding props happen every season.

We now have a 40yr old boat with a brand new rudder of a completely different design, built in a custom shop, he rated all season same as the other couple "same 40yr old boat" , had no idea he needed to declare the change. Former sailing instructor, offshore racer.....

and this is at the 4kt club level racing, it goes on forever.

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14 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

Also having a minimum 3 point adjustment is stupid.  Why not 1 or 2 or 4 or 5 points? 3 points is 10% on a J111 versus 3 pct on a shitbox  they are racing against 

Don’t forget the bias offset in PHRF numbers. It is usually around 500, so the J111 would be 530 seconds per mile. In that case a change of 3 is minor...
 

The bias is there to bring the numbers into a range that’s more comfortable for human brains (roughly 0-200).

alex

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Sailed a Farr 40 OD,  3rd & 4th owner.  First 2 owners were at international level in the class,  3rd & 4th owners club level.

4th owner discovers that a particular rock is slightly shallower than the keel on a booze cruise with family & mates.  Keel attempts to get out of way of rock by becoming a lift keel.

Insurance assessors first question on inspecting the boat on the hard is,  when did you add the extra weight to the keel?  Neither of the club level owners were aware that there was extra lead,  on questioning earlier owners,  (who had dry stored the boat),  it seems to have been an error at the factory.  They are sure that beyond careful preparation keel is stock and that their professional maintenance crews had not noticed the issue!

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50 minutes ago, crankcall said:

We (club not me)  had an oversized spinakker for 10 races in a series, protested every night, protest committee could not get the owner to bring the kit in for measure. When we finally said all your results are tossed, bring us the kite, it was "destroyed" in a training day incident the next morning. We actually kicked him out of the club.

Good work. Your club has more balls than most. 

All too many clubs, when faced with such behaviour, choose to look the other way. Generally this is because the bad actor has an argumentative, confrontational personality and the club directors don’t relish going through the necessary steps for expulsion.

 

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seems like small potatoes now after reading some of these other posts but there was this well known SoCal boat builder with quite  a successful record on light air overnighters who was turned in by one of his crew for charging his batteries with the transmission in gear. Banned for a year. There was also a story going around he'd been previously flicked from a local series for a folder when his certificate stated a solid two blade prop. Don't know how that one came to light.

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7 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

I think SloopJohnB would be a cheater if he raced.  I checked with many long time Anarchists  who know him and have said so. 

Did they say he was an asshole?

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1 minute ago, Cristoforo said:

Muy Grande pandejo!  Goes without saying. 

He’s actually a nice guy in person.

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I actually believe he must be because there’s no way he could be as big an asshole in real life.

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17 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

I think SloopJohnB would be a cheater if he raced.  I checked with many long time Anarchists  who know him and have said so. 

Wrong SJB

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On 4/25/2020 at 4:14 AM, Al Paca said:

Australia II

AWWW Diddums, still not over it?  

 

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Mark Richards, - MY AIS MOMENTARILY INTERMITTENTLY FAILED

RQYS Commodore - Starboard gives way to port

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23 hours ago, mccroc said:

Dennis Connor with a small television on board getting wind information from the broadcasting blimp in the sky.

Dennis Connor having wet sails down below on a windy day - sails he was never going to use.

So if DC cheated, how much more did those limeys on Australia II have to cheat to win the Cup. 

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8 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

So if DC cheated, how much more did those limeys on Australia II have to cheat to win the Cup. 

Limeys on Australia II?

In 1983 weren't the limeys on Victory?

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14 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

So if DC cheated, how much more did those limeys on Australia II have to cheat to win the Cup. 

 

English sailors were commonly referred to as" limejuicers" in the days of square riggers by the American mechant navvies because they sucked on limes to prevent scurvy.

That term shortened to limeys later and is considered slang for an english sailor although latterly it also referred to the english ground troops in WW2.

There,  you learnt something new, you're welcome. ;)

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2 hours ago, Factor said:

Mark Richards, - MY AIS MOMENTARILY INTERMITTENTLY FAILED

this. 

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By egregarious you mean in your face cheating, tough call but how about going from 1:8 to 9:8? 

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On 4/25/2020 at 2:08 AM, Mr Moab said:

Water ballast in IOR boats in the AC. 

Williwaw, Louisiana Crude and Acadia cheat in SORC in the 80's

Italian J-24s with lowered mast steps to increase rake in the 80s

Donald Crowhusrt doing donuts off Brazil, reporting false positions  while he was supposed to go around the world. Of course that one did not end well.  

Italians came back in the 90's with altered hull mold that took some rake out of the bow to get the mast back and had curved deck to get the beam lower when measuring the mast.
Boats were measured into Italian and European championships but caught at the worlds.

A few lifetime bans from that one..

And piss off of crew that chartered them...

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