Crash

Another WYDLO Project - Mini Spirit of Tradition Class

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So I was thinking the other day that we needed another WYDLO thread to pass the time while we are all stuck in our houses...This one has been simmering in the back of my mind for a while.  I love the look of the Spirit of Tradition yachts, but at the price point they are playing, well, that pretty much leaves us regular folk out.  I also love the performance and all round good sailing characteristics of the mid 80s production MORC boats.  Boats like the S-2 9.1 and 7.9 or the Olson 911SE or Olson 25.  I always said my S2 9.1 made me look like a better sailor then I was.  So why not combine the two genres?  A classic looking boat that is a good all round performer.  A boat that is easy to take out for a sail, is fun to race in a beercan, or point to point race, and is capable of being a fun weekend cruiser.  Standing headroom not required, but 4 berths that real people can actually sleep in.  A galley you can cook a hot, 2 pot meal in (no freeze dried food!).  Designed to be raced by 4, cruised by 2, and not hard to single or doublehand, 'cause I'm tired of chasing down 8 guys to race on Wed Nights.

Just to be clear, I think the current Alerion Express 28, 30 and 33 series misses the mark, as does the Harbor 20 and 25.  Bob Perry's Nightrunner is about perfect, but it's too big.  His Old Fart 20 is closer, but would need to be scaled up.  I like the look of Dudley Dix's Cape Henry, Cape May, etc boats, but they would need updated underwater foils, etc.  I think his Retro 29 is closer, but not quite right somehow...

A modern one of these is what I picture...

 

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Well, I did not know about the Dudley Dix Retro 29, so I'm a big winner so far. That's a really cool boat, and likely to fly if conditions are right... 3300 lbs on a 29ft LWL puts it in the mini-sled category, whatever you think of it's looks.

The problem with classic looks is that you don't get a lot of capacity for the length and weight. Overhangs are very inefficient. And the first thing I'd want to do with the Retro 29, lovely as it is, is give it more of a counter stern. (I also think the ply/stringer construction will be a rot trap). But a lovely boat overall.

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So... low headroom, check (4' 3")... 4 bunks, check... no galley though. Does it gets points for the reefing bowsprit? Tiny box coach roof with 8-Meter style ports?

 

Got kind of a Puritan (early America's Cup) vibe, doncha think?

I like the idea of a project like this

FB- Doug

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My feeling is: 9 out of 10 Spirit of Tradition boats just look some sort out of whack. To my eye, the Didi is sadly no exemption, at least the way the coachroof was built. 

I like it when designers find the sweetspot: a well-balanced mixture between reminiscence and modernity. You can be very avantgarde and yet unmistakanly root in the past. It is rather hard and expensive to build, though. I think, that is why we see more 'One-off' or low-number Spirit-of-Tradition boats than true production boats. 

Here is one example that I like very much: The Biga 242, a small trailerable cruiser from Germany, in production. Designed by the only female yacht architect I know of, Juliane Hempel. She has such a good eye for small boats. I think it has some speed potential, especially with the deeper keel (which most owner probably would forego...).

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matagi,

I agree that most of the spirit of tradition boats have too much "affected" style.  Style for style's sake, style to out style the last guys boat.  Style that has no function.  I also think that they end up with more freeboard than older more classical yachts due the the difference in underbodies....without that wineglass section to get the cabin sole low like a real classic, to maintain standing headroom, then you need freeboard and there goes part of of look...maybe I shouldn't have used the term Spirit of Tradition, and instead said classic boats...I'm a big fan of fishing schooners, pilot cutters, etc...and that's the look I was thinking of.

That Biga 242 is kinda like a really nice S2 7.9...but the skinny combing around the cockpit is not great on a boat that might race every now and again.  How do you sit outboard to steer without cutting off all the blood flow to your lower legs and feet?

Doug, 

I think Dudley's original house looks better.  The guy that built Arabella modified the house design.  The portlights he chose, along with the all white/light color scheme just don't do the boat justice.  That said, one with a different house, with oval ports, maybe a dark hull (or teak deck, but that's alot), and a fathead main would be pretty cool.Didi 29 Retro radius chine plywood boat plans

 

This Cape Charles 32 with a modern underbody would be pretty cool too...

Cape Charles 32 Marconi rig

 

This one is neat to, but is too "old fashioned" in rig and underbody as well

 

Secret 20 | Our 20-foot kit sailing boat

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You just need to go to the Eggemoggin Reach Regatta, and putt around the anchorage the morning after the party. Your brain will be awash with ideas.

A Herreshoff 28 with a modern underbody could do. I'm sure a Center Harbor 31 could be done with 4 berths, but that's a $200K answer to a $50k question. 

The Eggemoggin 47 is a tiny boat below, sleeps 4 but is less comfy than our old Samurai 28, but sails fantastic, unless you ask it to go upwind in breeze and chop. Now we're at $650k answer to that $50 k question. 

I actually won a couple of races with the Samurai. An amazingly roomy boat. Eldridge -McInnis design, built in postwar Japan. 

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Never heard of a Samuri before, I’m going to have to look that one up!

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Why have mini-SoT when you can have T? In a small boat, it's easier to have the real thing. There are plenty of newly built copies of Alerion and Rozinante.  Or, the LFH-designed Stuart Knockabout or one of Reuel Parker's boats like the Terrapin 25. The latter was built as a production boat in fiberglass though not in a SoT style. 

 

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1 hour ago, SemiSalt said:

Why have mini-SoT when you can have T? In a small boat, it's easier to have the real thing. There are plenty of newly built copies of Alerion and Rozinante.  Or, the LFH-designed Stuart Knockabout or one of Reuel Parker's boats like the Terrapin 25. The latter was built as a production boat in fiberglass though not in a SoT style. 

 

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I'd accept a 33'-37' version of the Stuart Knockabout but with a very nicely done spray hood /  dodger over the forward portion of the cockpit...

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2 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

Why have mini-SoT when you can have T? In a small boat, it's easier to have the real thing. There are plenty of newly built copies of Alerion and Rozinante.  Or, the LFH-designed Stuart Knockabout or one of Reuel Parker's boats like the Terrapin 25. The latter was built as a production boat in fiberglass though not in a SoT style. 

 

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Good question.  Not really a fan of double-enders, just a looks thing to me, though I make an exception for Kim (and Bob's) Francis. 

Owned a Melonseed for a time.  Lovely, beautiful little boat as long as you weren't in a hurry to go upwind.  Was a blast reaching off in a good breeze...I sorta see the Terrapin (and many of Parkers boats) in that same way.

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1 hour ago, Veeger said:

I'd accept a 33'-37' version of the Stuart Knockabout but with a very nicely done spray hood /  dodger over the forward portion of the cockpit...

The Knockabout and the Sakonnet 23 are both lovely boats. The Knockabout is relatively powerful and quite fun to sail.

 

3 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

... or one of Reuel Parker's boats like the Terrapin 25. The latter was built as a production boat in fiberglass though not in a SoT style. 

 

 

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Also built as the Skimmer 25. IMHO these boats have a number of issues, the ones I've seen in person are built much heavier than they should be and lighter ballast. Very cool looking though, and built to go on a trailer. How about stretched version, done up as a schooner?

FB- Doug

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Some of the Morris daysailer models seem close.  I think one of them might sleep four - this one is only two.  

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2010/morris-m29-3593535/
 

image.thumb.png.043946838bdf47d3a97c316513d8cfe0.png

In these parts there are a lot of beautiful old Kettenburgs floating around for low prices if you happened to be a trained shipwright.  Theres a similar one on my dock with four bunks that looks like a blast and seems to sail really well.  

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/1956-kettenburg-k38-4561317/

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There are some attractive boats being bandied about here.

A fair number of them have gaff rigs. My experience is only with balanced lug and marconi rigs.

Anyone here have experience with gaff rigged boats?

 

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18 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

There are some attractive boats being bandied about here.

A fair number of them have gaff rigs. My experience is only with balanced lug and marconi rigs.

Anyone here have experience with gaff rigged boats?

 

I had a gaff-rigged catboat. Mostly, a sailboat is a sailboat is a sailboat.

One fairly learned opinion came from Phil Bolger writing about the great racing boats of the pre-Marconi era. He said the gaff rig doesn't allow control of the geometry as well as a good Marconi rig. I thing he meant things like the gaff causing the top of the leach to fall off. The is no good geometry to set up a vang to control it (though it was sometimes done with problematic geometry.)

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Well, a bit. They don't point as well, but other than that, I think they are way underrated and I think it shows in the success of square main sails, which are essentially gaff sails with a modern twist (pun intended). Here is a good summary: https://improvesailing.com/questions/gaff-rig-advantages

If I remember correctly, gaff sails (especially more high aspect ones) outfox Marconi rigs on almost any point of sail (in theory), but they are not so practical for -say- the furl-in-type-of-sailor. 

Here is a fine example of a good small crossover, the Bihan 6.50 from a French yard, they have done a very good job and I think this rig will point rather well.

le-bihan-6-50-large.jpg

And then there is the Pen-Hir from Vivier. I always come back to this little beauty. Not super fast, for sure, she has a long-keel for easier building and especially for drying-out, but the S/D ratio is quite impressive in my view, she could surely surprise larger boats:

pen-hir-02.jpg

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10 hours ago, socalrider said:

Some of the Morris daysailer models seem close.  I think one of them might sleep four - this one is only two.  

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2010/morris-m29-3593535/
 

image.thumb.png.043946838bdf47d3a97c316513d8cfe0.png

In these parts there are a lot of beautiful old Kettenburgs floating around for low prices if you happened to be a trained shipwright.  Theres a similar one on my dock with four bunks that looks like a blast and seems to sail really well.  

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/1956-kettenburg-k38-4561317/

The Morris 29 is quite good looking, but too far on the luxury daysailor side of the equation.  I hope I'm never too old and feeble to not be able to tack the blade jib on a fractionally rigged 29 foot sailboat ...so I don't want a self tacking jib, and I want a traveller for the main.  I like the idea of the M29x, but the little carbon bowsprit is both too short, and terrible out of place aesthetically.  It doesn't look at all like the bowsprit of traditional boat...which is what the rest of the M29 looks like...Plus as Cruising L pointed out, its a $150k answer to a $50k question...

m29x_feature-2-1.jpg

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54 minutes ago, Crash said:

Plus as Cruising L pointed out, its a $150k answer to a $50k question...

$157k to be precise.  Used, 10 years old!  

Is there conceivably a $50k answer to the $50k question?

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12 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

I had a gaff-rigged catboat. Mostly, a sailboat is a sailboat is a sailboat. 

This agrees with my experience. 

I've spent a lot of time sailing a gaff rigged Herreshoff 12.5.  The gaff rig is more finicky to sail well than a marconi rig.  The peak halyard's tension, for example, needs to be adjusted depending on the apparent wind.  The same could be said for a marconi rig, but with the gaff rig inattention results in large creases running between opposite corners of the sail which really spoil its shape.  If you want good headstay tension then running backstays are necessary on all but the smallest boats.  The upside, for a small daysailer, is that they're way better off the wind than a marconi rig -- nice if you aren't planning to use a spinnaker.

A number of years ago at the ERR I remember watching the Herreshoff P-boat JOYANT being passed by a Bob Stephen's design, GOSHAWK (I think), upwind.  GOSHAWK is a bigger boat (76 ft. on deck, to JOYANT's 58 ft.) and she's a modern Spirit of Tradition design with a deep fin keel, spade rudder, a modern fractional rig and laminate sails.  GOSHAWK was going faster, undoubtedly making less leeway and pointing higher.  But not pointing much higher.  I was impressed by how little difference there was.  I think a lot of people associate the gaff rig with fishing boats and coasting schooners and the like, but those aren't necessarily good examples of what the rig is capable of when upwind performance is prioritized.

It's interesting to note that gaff and marconi rigged Herreshoff 12.5s generally race together without handycap.

 

 

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18 hours ago, SemiSalt said:
18 hours ago, Autonomous said:

There are some attractive boats being bandied about here.

A fair number of them have gaff rigs. My experience is only with balanced lug and marconi rigs.

Anyone here have experience with gaff rigged boats?

 

I had a gaff-rigged catboat. Mostly, a sailboat is a sailboat is a sailboat.

One fairly learned opinion came from Phil Bolger writing about the great racing boats of the pre-Marconi era. He said the gaff rig doesn't allow control of the geometry as well as a good Marconi rig. I thing he meant things like the gaff causing the top of the leach to fall off. The is no good geometry to set up a vang to control it (though it was sometimes done with problematic geometry.)

 

Somebody mentioned the Herreshoff 12.5s, or Doughdishes (which are all Marconi IIRC) racing together. I don't have a lot of experience with them but the Marconi is a little faster because of the better geometry and vang. The biggest consistent difference is in reaching. Upwind, they are fairly close... I raced in a gaff one and of course the gaff skippers are a little better...   ^_^

In the older days, materials were stronger than you might think but more flexy. Really rigid hulls that can take a lot of stress from the rig, to hold it in close to perfect shape, are relatively new (compared to the shift from gaff to marconi).

I've also raced Sneakboxes, which have a quite high-peaked gaff much like the H12s. But unlike them, they don't have useful vangs (or didn't back when I sailed them with my grandfather). One of my grandfathers tricks was to have a set of wedges that he would put under the run of the peak halyard, between the partners and cleat, to be able to tweak the tenion and put a little more draft aloft while the sail was under tension. That, and he made me sit on the boom far outboard, which I hated,  on the downwind run.

FB- Doug

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7 hours ago, MFH125 said:

 

It's interesting to note that gaff and marconi rigged Herreshoff 12.5s generally race together without handycap.

 

In Catboat Association races, the boats sail without handicap. (Sometimes there are separate divisions for cabin boats vs open daysailers.) That doesn't mean every boat has an equal chance.

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Polar Bear built by Chantier des Ileaux

 

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1 hour ago, trucdesign said:

Polar Bear built by Chantier des Ileaux

 

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Hell yeah, that's what I'm talkin' about!

That is an awesome boat Truc, you must be very proud of the grin on the skipper's face in that first pic.....

FB- Doug

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I always liked Rodger Martin's Gray Wolf -- classic design, modern underbody, cold molded wood, free standing rig, water ballast.

In Newport Beach there's a clipper-bowed Macgregor 23 with a squaretop, which looks kinda like a gaff rig -- neat.

I saw Arabella at the Georgetown Wooden Boat Show -- definitely appealing, but didn't look too comfortable.

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LA 28

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JK 28

84bf356467ace91ae17234278aab6ba47d063fce

Biehl 8.8

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All from Germany. The LA 28 has a very distinctive form, a reminder of Manfred Curry's Aera, the JK is a modern 'Jollenkreuzer', with a ballasted centreboard, the Biehl is a weekender with a sleek underbody and classic top by Georg Nissen.

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22 minutes ago, Matagi said:

LA 28

5541_100_1_wpohne.jpg

JK 28

84bf356467ace91ae17234278aab6ba47d063fce

Biehl 8.8

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All from Germany. The LA 28 has a very distinctive form, a reminder of Manfred Curry's Aera, the JK is a modern 'Jollenkreuzer', with a ballasted centreboard, the Biehl is a weekender with a sleek underbody and classic top by Georg Nissen.

I'll take one of each. That should keep me entertained for at least a month.

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And this one is from the same designer as the LA 28.

BM31_Classic_General.jpg

It is currently being built as a one-off by a German playwright, he keeps a very detailed, entertaining diary, also in English.

https://janvonderbank.wordpress.com/eine-seite/

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I sorta like the Biehl...and with some work, would maybe really like it.  The LA is everything I don't like in modern boats, with a bunch of veneer to keep varnished.  The JK is a very interesting modern boat, not pretending to be anything but what is is.  Which I like.

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The BM 31 is interesting too, but no real classic boat has a stern that wide, so it sorta ruins the look (IMHO)

 

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That is why we are looking at fake classic boats here.

No real modern design has a pinched stern and performs well. I should know, I have an old Waarschip with basically hardly any ass to show for. She trucks well uphill, though.

 

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Wanna be competitive in SOT racing?

How about a carbon boarding ladder to save weight?
IMG_0894.thumb.jpg.3cdc6b74e834bfd02382abe85085dcf9.jpg

Or carbon winch drums - the very spirit of tradition. The "wood" cockpit table is actually a hi tech lightweight composite, as is the interior, which is not intended for cruising or offshore racing but for deliveries.

IMG_0896.thumb.jpg.83c94a7d42a5a0d346dfc31c721c387f.jpg

The boat is carbon with a wood veneer, which is enough to make it eligible for SOT. 

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yes, do tell

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4 hours ago, Quilbilly said:

Here is one that I am building that fits the topic. 

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It is my design based on a traditionally built Monk design that I built in the 1970s. I had that boat for many years until two kids and a wife meant it wasn't getting used. It sat in my yard going through many blue tarps until about seven or eight years ago I gave it away. The fellow who took it never picked up the beautiful spruce  mast and boom. I didn't  want those to go to waste so I designed this boat to use them. From the waterline up will look similar to the original but underwater it is more modern shape and instead of a full keel it has a ballasted daggerboard. It is built like a strip built canoe and can live out of the water when not in use. These are launch day for the original  back when we were young and beautiful. 

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19 minutes ago, Quilbilly said:

It is my design based on a traditionally built Monk design that I built in the 1970s. I had that boat for many years until two kids and a wife meant it wasn't getting used. It sat in my yard going through many blue tarps until about seven or eight years ago I gave it away. The fellow who took it never picked up the beautiful spruce  mast and boom. I didn't  want those to go to waste so I designed this boat to use them. From the waterline up will look similar to the original but underwater it is more modern shape and instead of a full keel it has a ballasted daggerboard. It is built like a strip built canoe and can live out of the water when not in use. These are launch day for the original  back when we were young and beautiful. 

IMG_0128.jpg

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Wow that is beautiful work. Looks like you're down to the short strokes on the actual build... please, more photos when you get well into the commissioning... or before... and after too!

FB- Doug

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well i like it a lot. what are its dimensions?  you can share all the pics ya got!

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3 hours ago, chester said:

well i like it a lot. what are its dimensions?  you can share all the pics ya got!

It is 18 feet long and 6'6" wide. It should draw about four feet with the board down. The board is 210 lbs.  I need to weigh the boat but I am hoping to keep it under 800 pounds total.  I did the R2Ak last year with a pedal drive and liked the fact that I didn't like pedaling so we sailed every chance we got. So for now this is going to have a pedal drive probably not for R2Ak though. Here'd a few pix that show the hull shape. 

IMG_1358.JPG

IMG_1360.JPG

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11 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Wanna be competitive in SOT racing?

How about a carbon boarding ladder to save weight?
IMG_0894.thumb.jpg.3cdc6b74e834bfd02382abe85085dcf9.jpg

Or carbon winch drums - the very spirit of tradition. The "wood" cockpit table is actually a hi tech lightweight composite, as is the interior, which is not intended for cruising or offshore racing but for deliveries.

IMG_0896.thumb.jpg.83c94a7d42a5a0d346dfc31c721c387f.jpg

The boat is carbon with a wood veneer, which is enough to make it eligible for SOT. 

I know, what is it with some people? None of it is "real."  Its like a BMW M that is programmed to pop and spit fire when you lift of the gas in "Sport" mode.  No car that has computer controlled fuel injection will do that without it being programmed to.  Carburated highly tuned engines of the early days, into the 70s did that when a big slug of gas went down the exhaust.  But it's "cool" to emulate that.  Bull Shit.  You're a pretender.  Just like "rev-matched" downshifts done by the computer.  If you can't heel and toe...well, then don't pretend.

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2 minutes ago, Crash said:

I know, what is it with some people? None of it is "real."  Its like a BMW M that is programmed to pop and spit fire when you lift of the gas in "Sport" mode.  No car that has computer controlled fuel injection will do that without it being programmed to.  Carburated highly tuned engines of the early days, into the 70s did that when a big slug of gas went down the exhaust.  But it's "cool" to emulate that.  Bull Shit.  You're a pretender.  Just like "rev-matched" downshifts done by the computer.  If you can't heel and toe...well, then don't pretend.

And for the last time... Get off my lawn!!!

:) 

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17 hours ago, Matagi said:

That is why we are looking at fake classic boats here.

No real modern design has a pinched stern and performs well. I should know, I have an old Waarschip with basically hardly any ass to show for. She trucks well uphill, though.

 

I love those Waarschips.  I don't need to be able to plane.  In a smaller boat, J-24 (PHRF 171 ish) speed is perfectly acceptable.  In a 30 footer, something in the 130-140 ish range is just fine for Beercan racing in PHRF B...

This is about having fun with a couple 3 or so of my friends...in a better looking boat then anyone else in the fleet :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Quilbilly said:

It is 18 feet long and 6'6" wide. It should draw about four feet with the board down. The board is 210 lbs.  I need to weigh the boat but I am hoping to keep it under 800 pounds total.  I did the R2Ak last year with a pedal drive and liked the fact that I didn't like pedaling so we sailed every chance we got. So for now this is going to have a pedal drive probably not for R2Ak though. Here'd a few pix that show the hull shape. 

IMG_1358.JPG

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Well done! Sleep us posted.

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6 hours ago, Quilbilly said:

It is 18 feet long and 6'6" wide. It should draw about four feet with the board down. The board is 210 lbs.  I need to weigh the boat but I am hoping to keep it under 800 pounds total.  I did the R2Ak last year with a pedal drive and liked the fact that I didn't like pedaling so we sailed every chance we got. So for now this is going to have a pedal drive probably not for R2Ak though. Here'd a few pix that show the hull shape. 

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It looks great.

I wonder how good is a pedal drive compared to a sculling oar ? Is it much better? Would you put it on a par with a small 2hp outboard in term of manoeuvrability in tight spaces where you can't sail?

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3 hours ago, Panoramix said:

It looks great.

I wonder how good is a pedal drive compared to a sculling oar ? Is it much better? Would you put it on a par with a small 2hp outboard in term of manoeuvrability in tight spaces where you can't sail?

The ones I've looked at, have proportions that don't match what you'd expect from torque/RPM/speed curves. I like the idea of a removable pedal drive instead of the clutter of rowing fit-out. But the question is, getting the developed power into the water to shove the boat forward effectively. Humans, even athletic ones, don't develop much horsepower. But the human-powered airplanes have props that look much like conventional engine-driven ones.

FB- Doug

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^^ Reminds me of this panting that I painted this a couple of years ago. It's now hanging in Ed Lada's house.

fB2Y7ofLSFyXgEBpvuysiQ_thumb_4c2b.thumb.jpg.806e7459bcda21e991a40e82c2336a6e.jpg

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12 minutes ago, Bull City said:

^^ Reminds me of this panting that I painted this a couple of years ago. It's now hanging in Ed Lada's house.

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Nice! That's a lovely painting, it reminds me of some of my favorite Renoirs although the boat is definitely more the Broads type

FB- Doug

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13 hours ago, Panoramix said:

It looks great.

I wonder how good is a pedal drive compared to a sculling oar ? Is it much better? Would you put it on a par with a small 2hp outboard in term of manoeuvrability in tight spaces where you can't sail?

 

9 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

The ones I've looked at, have proportions that don't match what you'd expect from torque/RPM/speed curves. I like the idea of a removable pedal drive instead of the clutter of rowing fit-out. But the question is, getting the developed power into the water to shove the boat forward effectively. Humans, even athletic ones, don't develop much horsepower. But the human-powered airplanes have props that look much like conventional engine-driven ones.

FB- Doug

An average fit person can do about 1/10 of a hp so my pedal drive will be mostly for getting into and out of marinas. In the R2Ak we could do about 2 knots in calm water with a 5000 lb boat. I'm hoping for something better with an 800 lb boat but not even approaching a 2 hp outboard. Like I said the pedal drive is a great motivator for sailing instead.

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