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mikewof

Staggering finding regarding deaths from SARS-CoV-2.

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Mikey has you on a string mate. 

Go check the posts I referenced above.  He is a Trump apologist, that's clearly documented.

He is a anthropocentric climate change denialist.  Want me to get some post links for you?

Every stance Trump has taken, so has Mikey, only in a way that has even fooled you.  When all we had to worry about was fires Mikey came out in defense of Trump claiming the foresters were to blame.  Now look what we have with the virus.  See the pattern FFS.

If it looks like a duck ...

Mikeythreequotes.jpg

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2 hours ago, mikewof said:

I recognize the "prior art" that you mention, but there is something genuinely new here, the idea that the compliance can flip, and they have to adjust it, rather than follow a set protocol. The idea of someone's respiration just doing that, it's kind of bizarre, and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere else. And the comparison to altitude sickness is kind of mind-blowing to me.

Like I said, it's great that you're catching up  -  try reading some of the links?  A lot of it's over my head, I'm a carpenter who studied the the soft "sciences".

2 hours ago, mikewof said:

How can the elasticity of a lung -- the elasticity of anything -- go nonlinear like that?

Like this, for example, I'm not sure I'm following. 

The impression I had from what I'd read is that in classic, typical ARDS, the lung's lost its elasticity; and so you vent with high pressure to get the lung to open up.  And that what Kyle-Sidell and others were finding, is that the issue isn't elasticity  -  the lung isn't stiff  -  but instead there's something wrong with the air-gas exchange in the alveoli.  So you don't need a lot of pressure, you just need to increase the percentage of oxygen getting into the alveoli.  

2 hours ago, mikewof said:

It seems to have less to do with this SARS-CoV-2, than it does some other damage to the lungs. 

Read more.  The discussions I've read suggest that it's because the cells in the alveoli have a lot of the receptors that SARS-CoV-2 attaches to  -  and that it is the virus directly causing the damage.

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7 minutes ago, astro said:

Mikey has you on a string mate. 

Go check the posts I referenced above.  He is a Trump apologist, that's clearly documented.

He is a anthropocentric climate change denialist.  Want me to get some post links for you?

Every stance Trump has taken, so has Mikey, only in a way that has even fooled you.  When all we had to worry about was fires Mikey came out in defense of Trump claiming the foresters were to blame.  Now look what we have with the virus.  See the pattern FFS.

If it looks like a duck ...

Mikeythreequotes.jpg

Got links?

Personally, based on my interactions with both of you, I strongly suspect it's more like: you missed the point he was making.  But like I said, he sometimes says dumb shit, too.

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7 minutes ago, frenchie said:

Got links?

Personally, based on my interactions with both of you, I strongly suspect it's more like: you missed the point he was making.  But like I said, he sometimes says dumb shit, too.

I know exactly the point he is making, whatever Trump says.

When Trump blamed forest management for Paradise burning?  When Science said it was climate change and could prove it?

This is what the Phd said ... can;t even imagine ...

MikeyPhD.thumb.jpg.d4664720b03ffb2972c5b9e1a1eefdd4.jpg

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Has Cliff weighed in on the whole nanothermite thing, A Sock That's Randumbly Operated?

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2 hours ago, frenchie said:

 

Like I said, it's great that you're catching up  -  try reading some of the links?  A lot of it's over my head, I'm a carpenter who studied the the soft "sciences".

Like this, for example, I'm not sure I'm following. 

The impression I had from what I'd read is that in classic, typical ARDS, the lung's lost its elasticity; and so you vent with high pressure to get the lung to open up.  And that what Kyle-Sidell and others were finding, is that the issue isn't elasticity  -  the lung isn't stiff  -  but instead there's something wrong with the air-gas exchange in the alveoli.  So you don't need a lot of pressure, you just need to increase the percentage of oxygen getting into the alveoli.  

Read more.  The discussions I've read suggest that it's because the cells in the alveoli have a lot of the receptors that SARS-CoV-2 attaches to  -  and that it is the virus directly causing the damage.

Lungs also suffering from a build up of white blood cells and other crap from immune/inflammation system.

Respiration in the lungs is rather "sub optimal".

I'm waiting for methods to raise partial pressure of oxygen, such as hyperbaric chambers, to be considered an option.

 

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5 hours ago, mikewof said:

I think you might be a looking for a shitfight here where none need exist. Did you read the transcript or watch the interview? Dr. Kyle-Siddell said that he had to leave his post because he understood that he couldn't use a different protocol than the rest of the ICU. The protocol from Germany seems to use low pressure and more oxygen, which is the opposite of the way they were doing it. And when they did it that way, the mortality dropped from 60% to zero. They also received six critical patients from France, and they saved all of them.

I don't remember which paper looked at the non-invasive vent, but they claimed it was safer.

other than my fuck up on "intubation" when I should have written respiration, do we need an argument here?

If you understand and acknowledge that was a mistake, no argument.

But you still seem to think that the problem is not severe respiratory infection, the problem is doctors intubating patients. I'm not sure you realize that while oxygen and positive pressure can be applied non-invasively, there is not real "ventilation." The patients' own breathing is what moves air in & out. With intubation, a machine (which has to be extremely precise in many ways) forces air in and out. There are complex algorithms for deciding if a patient needs to be intubated, and for adjusting the vent to them. Only intubation can actually move oxygen into the lung for a patient whose breathing is no longer sufficient. It is not a casual decision by any doctor.

Patients that are -THAT- sick tend to die, in high percentages. This is the tragic reality of medicine. To say... or even insinuate... that the doctors are at fault really is starting at the wrong end of the equation

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

If you understand and acknowledge that was a mistake, no argument.

But you still seem to think that the problem is not severe respiratory infection, the problem is doctors intubating patients. I'm not sure you realize that while oxygen and positive pressure can be applied non-invasively, there is not real "ventilation." The patients' own breathing is what moves air in & out. With intubation, a machine (which has to be extremely precise in many ways) forces air in and out. There are complex algorithms for deciding if a patient needs to be intubated, and for adjusting the vent to them. Only intubation can actually move oxygen into the lung for a patient whose breathing is no longer sufficient. It is not a casual decision by any doctor.

Patients that are -THAT- sick tend to die, in high percentages. This is the tragic reality of medicine. To say... or even insinuate... that the doctors are at fault really is starting at the wrong end of the equation

- DSK

You forgot to mention the need for that patient to be in an induced coma.....

 

It's a risky situation, all round.

 

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5 hours ago, frenchie said:

I goota say, Jeff, I agree with the Aussies on this one.  It's like something an "I'm so clever" 12 year old would dream up.

OK, I'll work on it when my 30 days is up to do another name change.  Thanks.  Maybe we should do a contest for best "BTBD" name theme.  :lol:

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4 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Lungs also suffering from a build up of white blood cells and other crap from immune/inflammation system.

Respiration in the lungs is rather "sub optimal".

I'm waiting for methods to raise partial pressure of oxygen, such as hyperbaric chambers, to be considered an option.

The transportation of critically ill patients on ventilators, infusions and monitoring equipment isn't altogether without risk. There would have to be a very clear benefit to subject a patient to these risks and the risk of suffering an emergency in the chamber when at depth. The technicians along for the dive would have to be highly trained and capable of handling these emergencies, as well as for any other patients along for the ride. Terminal cleaning of CT scanners can put them down for hours after use on COVID patients, so a monoplace chamber wouldn't be efficient, it would have to be multiple.

It is suspected that some patients on hi flow oxygen might be in a phase of disease where a bridge therapy such as hyperbaric chamber O2 could allow them to avoid intubation, helpfully during a phase when their mechanical accouterments are minimal. However, these patients are, by design, the very ones most likely to suffer cytokine storm or respiratory failure during an hours long dive, making trained personnel with intubation and critical care skills essential. These patients are all coughing freely, making the contamination of the environment exponentially worse than intubated patients, and posing risk to caregivers.

Plus, the amount of oxygen which can be carried in blood stream during a few hours, even when PaO2 is raised as high as possible, will never achieve the oxygen delivery afforded by hemoglobin 24/7

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BTW, earlier there was much consternation over "minimally invasive intubation". My mind skipped right over that typo, assuming that what was meant was "minimally invasive ventilation" or "non-invasive ventilation" which is common jargon for BiPAP.

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7 hours ago, frenchie said:

 

Read more.  The discussions I've read suggest that it's because the cells in the alveoli have a lot of the receptors that SARS-CoV-2 attaches to  -  and that it is the virus directly causing the damage.

That's very interesting

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2 hours ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

OK, I'll work on it when my 30 days is up to do another name change.  Thanks.  Maybe we should do a contest for best "BTBD" name theme.  :lol:

Burnett Downs was cool.

This one, translated to "Bitch on Fire" is, well, kinda dumb

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:
3 hours ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

OK, I'll work on it when my 30 days is up to do another name change.  Thanks.  Maybe we should do a contest for best "BTBD" name theme.  :lol:

Burnett Downs was cool.

This one, translated to "Bitch on Fire" is, well, kinda dumb

There are some folks who could give you tips on correct Latin construction

- DSK

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7 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

There are some folks who could give you tips on correct Latin construction

- DSK

no classic education here. And I'm sure it shows.

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6 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

If you understand and acknowledge that was a mistake, no argument.

But you still seem to think that the problem is not severe respiratory infection, the problem is doctors intubating patients. I'm not sure you realize that while oxygen and positive pressure can be applied non-invasively, there is not real "ventilation." The patients' own breathing is what moves air in & out. With intubation, a machine (which has to be extremely precise in many ways) forces air in and out. There are complex algorithms for deciding if a patient needs to be intubated, and for adjusting the vent to them. Only intubation can actually move oxygen into the lung for a patient whose breathing is no longer sufficient. It is not a casual decision by any doctor.

Patients that are -THAT- sick tend to die, in high percentages. This is the tragic reality of medicine. To say... or even insinuate... that the doctors are at fault really is starting at the wrong end of the equation

- DSK

To the first bit in bold, yeah. No argument. And yet, when they moved to a radically different protocol, the deaths plummeted.

Your second bit in bold perhaps shows the shitfight. I didn't suggest that, and Dr. Kyle-Sidell didn't say that. In fact, when asked much that same question, he said that it's complicated work, and nobody is at fault. Doctors and nurses have to be able to use feedback like this to adjust the way they work, because they are simply human, prone to the same human error as any other human. We have a problem in healthcare that some quarter million lives every year are lost in the USA to essentially what amounts to human error. If we can't admit that error and adjust, then there is no hope ... we might as well be back in the ear before Joseph Lister wiping surgical instruments on bloody smocks.

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9 hours ago, frenchie said:

Despite the name & founder, the Christian Science Monitor is actually a very well-known, Pulitzer-winning, mainstream media organization.  Have a sample:

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2020/0430/Fake-news-101-A-guide-to-help-sniff-out-the-truth

In the american media landscape, they're as trustworthy as the Washington Post.  

You should at least check wikipedia before jumping to conclusions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Christian_Science_Monitor

I goota say, Jeff, I agree with the Aussies on this one.  It's like something an "I'm so clever" 12 year old would dream up.

No, I'm pretty sure you'd left NYC before I moved here.  Fall of 1998?  But you namedropped Dr Dave in the Reid thread, and as a poor/uninsured carpenter, he was my doctor at the time.

He says bone-headed shit sometimes, 'cause his first reflex is always to be as contrarian as possible.  So is sticking up for the perceived underdog. 

That sounds right-wing to you?

You're talking about a guy who's original claim to fame was sticking up for Reid.  From the very start; at a time when even I was mocking the 1000 days at sea project.  Not later, when it became apparent we'd been wrong (something the right-wingers, like RegattaDog, refused to ever admit).

Mike's to the left of probably everyone else in SA except, maybe, me.  He wandered in here because he thought the word "Anarchy" meant there'd be actual Anarchists (in the serious, political sense of the word) here.  I remember him name-dropping Buenaventura Durruti, expecting this bunch of yacht-owning plutocrat-wannabes to recognize the name...

He might be a lot of things (when people say he's an overly verbose, intellectually arrogant, know-it-all blowhard... I don't argue...) but he's no rightwinger, he's a comrade.

The Christian Science Monitor forces their reporters to put down the phone and the internet connection and meet with sources and talk with them. They will spike a story if it is shows bias. They won't let their reporters turn into "journalists." Their job is that of a honeybee; get the facts, distill, bring it back to the hive. Sometimes I'll look at the same story (ideally a politically-sensitive story, like something to do with oil or defense) in the NYT, LAT, WP and CSM, and it's the CSM that typically nails it bias free.

I left NYC about a year after 9/11, so 2003. The asbestos and stuff in Battery Park City made our oldest daughter sufficiency sick that we couldn't stay.

But I do get Random's thoughts here, and I'm no more offended by someone considering me a righty than a lefty, when I was younger I used to wish I could be a righty, they had a pretty cool gig, not sitting around worried about everyone's feelings. I've never felt I had a home with either lefties or righties, but lefties offend my sensibilities a good bit less. Anarchists on the other hand, they're like libertarians who are willing to forego the pleasures of life. Durruti could have probably beat Franco's fascists, but he always deferred to Montseny, he apparently thought that even in defeat, and his and her deaths, Spain had more to gain from Monteny's ideals than a victory from Franco's ideals. And he was apparently correct. So all these Anarchist, they must have known that letting the Commies into their fight would be their undoing, but they had structured a war that had no money. The general made the same meager pay as the private, nobody saluted one another, nobody had any special privileges. Lefties abhor that ideal as much as the righties and it adds a complexity that makes guys like Random see guys like you and me as more enemy than friend. And in a sense, he's right, we are more enemy than friend, because ultimately ideals mean nothing. Uniformity of thought means nothing. A general fighting on the front lines mean something. A capitalist who reinvests every cent he or she makes into social responsibility means something.

So I appreciate that you see me as a comrade, thank you.

We had our own Buenaventura Durruti in the USA, but history has done a job of burying him. The main reason I know about him was because my grandmother was acquaintances with his mom and his wife. We had this guy ...

General-Rose-color.jpg

Two Star General Maurice Rose, the highest ranking American killed in Europe, he led from the front, just like Durruti, killed by Germans right on the front lines in Germany. He could have hung back in safety like most every other general. But like Durruti, he wouldn't allow any of his soldiers to accept any living condition that he didn't also have to endure. He slept on the ground like them, ate the same food they ate, albeit his General's salary was mandated by the U.S. Army, unlike the Durruti and the CNT.

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9 hours ago, Steganographic Tom said:

Has Cliff weighed in on the whole nanothermite thing, A Sock That's Randumbly Operated?

Long ago, Normy.

I'm not in favor of 9/11 buildings violating Newtonian Physics, thus Random's thing never really grabbed my attention. Given that, my friend brought me back a really nice challenge coin from Diego Fucking Garcia, and I appreciate it so much more than if it was just from Diego Garcia.

Off the subject of everything, but my friend said there is a gay bar on Diego Garcia for the Pacific Rim employees there. Also, a LOT of feral burros, so many that they had to fence them off from the U.S. military side of the horseshoe.

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Hey Mikey, tell em about your involvement in the Truth for 9/11 movement.

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9 hours ago, frenchie said:

 

Like I said, it's great that you're catching up  -  try reading some of the links?  A lot of it's over my head, I'm a carpenter who studied the the soft "sciences".

Like this, for example, I'm not sure I'm following. 

The impression I had from what I'd read is that in classic, typical ARDS, the lung's lost its elasticity; and so you vent with high pressure to get the lung to open up.  And that what Kyle-Sidell and others were finding, is that the issue isn't elasticity  -  the lung isn't stiff  -  but instead there's something wrong with the air-gas exchange in the alveoli.  So you don't need a lot of pressure, you just need to increase the percentage of oxygen getting into the alveoli.  

Read more.  The discussions I've read suggest that it's because the cells in the alveoli have a lot of the receptors that SARS-CoV-2 attaches to  -  and that it is the virus directly causing the damage.

It's weirder than that. And apologies if I get this wrong, but the paper from him and Gattioni aren't that detailed yet. "Elasticity" isn't really a clear use by itself, you have to use it with compliance; high compliance, low elastance versus low compliance, high elastance. It makes more sense to me when I think of it in terms of spring constants ... patient walks in at 70% oxygen saturation, speaking full sentences, the caregiver is like "WTF?" They find lungs with a high "spring constant" or in the words of Dr. Kyle-Sidell, a "thicker balloon." Then need to get oxygen up, so they'll often ventilate, invasively or not. Then the lungs do a whipsaw from high spring constant to low spring constant, they adjust the settings, the patient dies some 60% of the time. The new method (as Steam Flyer writes, they often HAVE to ventilate) is to give very low pressure and high oxygen, or even just give oxygen through the nose rather than ventilate.

To paraphrase Gettionia and Kyle-Siddel, this appears to be a brand new disease, not really like ARDS in the most important ways.

What you write about the SARS-CoV-2 doing the damage may or may not be right. But the really weird part is that these patients have apparently grown used to essentially living their lives at 70% saturation, the equivalent of spending a year at 10,000-some feet in La Paz Bolivia, then taking a leisurely jaunt to the top of Illimani. We know that SARS-CoV-2 can take away health from the people it infects, but how can it temporarily grant superpowers to the people it infects? Kyle-Siddel doesn't address that, but it seems as if the SARS-CoV-2 is coinciding with some other issue that forces people to build up a tolerance to lack of lung function. And that takes months and years, it's not something that can just pop out fully formed as soon as some guy rubs his nose in a dead bat or whatever in China a few months ago.

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9 hours ago, frenchie said:

Got links?

Personally, based on my interactions with both of you, I strongly suspect it's more like: you missed the point he was making.  But like I said, he sometimes says dumb shit, too.

He makes up about half of what he writes here, but that's his favorite thing, he likes to annoy people. Why would I want to take away his joie de vivre?

Arguments can get complicated, and I'm happy to let him take anything he wants out of context and quote me on it. I don't see President Trump as evil incarnate, so I don't care about that. He's not as bad as Reagan in my opinion, not in the same league as Eisenhower or Obama. And even Ike and Obama have their disgraces.

We voted Trump in as our employee, collectively and as a nation. Anything he does, that's on us for hiring him. Random had nothing to do with that, he's an Aussie and has no skin in our game.

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10 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Mikey seems to think all patients get the same treatment, as opposed to patients getting the specific treatment their specific symptoms require.

 

Please don't confuse "treatment" with "protocol."

Did you read the transcript? He was clear, he had to leave the ICU back to the ER because he couldn't use his own protocols. He had no problem with that, he said something to the effect that "we can't have one doctor doing a different protocol than the others."

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Hey Mik

1 minute ago, mikewof said:

Please don't confuse "treatment" with "protocol."

Did you read the transcript? He was clear, he had to leave the ICU back to the ER because he couldn't use his own protocols. He had no problem with that, he said something to the effect that "we can't have one doctor doing a different protocol than the others."

Everyone understands that Mikey, treatment, protocol, clear as.  That's your normal wiggle room language you use to obfuscate.

So what about your involvement in the Truth for 9/11movement.

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3 hours ago, Raz'r said:

That's very interesting

AEC-2?  I tried reading up on it, but that shit's way over my head. 

22 minutes ago, mikewof said:

"Elasticity" isn't really a clear use by itself, you have to use it with compliance; high compliance, low elastance versus low compliance, high elastance. It makes more sense to me when I think of it in terms of spring constants

"Compliance" in this context, is a bit over my head as well.  And I can tell that you're telling me I misunderstood it, but I can't tell what you're trying to explain.

22 minutes ago, mikewof said:

But the really weird part is that these patients have apparently grown used to essentially living their lives at 70% saturation, the equivalent of spending a year at 10,000-some feet in La Paz Bolivia, then taking a leisurely jaunt to the top of Illimani. We know that SARS-CoV-2 can take away health from the people it infects, but how can it temporarily grant superpowers to the people it infects?

Apparently  -  and I'm just repeating what I've read & half-understand   -  what normally triggers panting & shortness of breath & so on isn't actually lack of oxygen, but carbon monoxide level.  So the thinking (last time I lurked a discussion about it) was that the virus somehow fucks with that mechanism?  I don't recall the details, because it's over my head. 

But you don't get superpowers.  Your lips still turn blue.  You still faint & fall over 3 steps away from your hospital bed, on the way to the bathroom.  There was some agonized pondering, in one thread, about patients who'd been sent home when they seemed fine, or recovered... and that this might have happened to in the meanwhile. 

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1 hour ago, frenchie said:

AEC-2?  I tried reading up on it, but that shit's way over my head. 

"Compliance" in this context, is a bit over my head as well.  And I can tell that you're telling me I misunderstood it, but I can't tell what you're trying to explain.

Apparently  -  and I'm just repeating what I've read & half-understand   -  what normally triggers panting & shortness of breath & so on isn't actually lack of oxygen, but carbon monoxide level.  So the thinking (last time I lurked a discussion about it) was that the virus somehow fucks with that mechanism?  I don't recall the details, because it's over my head. 

But you don't get superpowers.  Your lips still turn blue.  You still faint & fall over 3 steps away from your hospital bed, on the way to the bathroom.  There was some agonized pondering, in one thread, about patients who'd been sent home when they seemed fine, or recovered... and that this might have happened to in the meanwhile. 

Yeah. The person gets tired of struggling for breath, can nether expel their CO2 nor breath in fresh air. In a healthy lung, the natural elastance  pushes the CO2 out, and the muscles expand the volume of lungs to draw in fresh air.

The "superpower" is in that odd pattern, and you're right, viruses don't give people the advantage of being able to function with less oxygen. He talks about that in the interview, he said it's like nothing he's seen, and he compared it to a "mirror" of altitude sickness. He said it's not like ARDS, but it's high compliance rather than the normal low compliance.

(And to what Ease the Sheet wrote, he specifically says that he couldn't just alter the protocols.)

The compliance is the lung's "obedience" to the applied pressure. So a highly compliant lung accompanies low elastance and vice-versa.

What you've written may be true, the virus may screw with that process. But as he said, he's never seen patients with relatively low saturation who are that functional. That's the "superpower" although it's more accurately an acclimatization. And the only thing that seems to make sense is that they had gotten used to relatively low saturation long before this disease ever hit due to some other lung disease. The body can't acclimate to low oxygen in days, it needs weeks and months, like the Himalayan Sherpa.

Nobody wants to hear about co-infections because I've drummed that one long enough, but why would someone have an ability to function with less oxygen unless they had a slowly creeping lung disease that they never noticed? It might not be an infection, but some other damage.

I can only guess where they haven't filled in the blanks, it's over my head too, same as you.

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2 hours ago, mikewof said:

I don't see President Trump as evil incarnate,

Yep, pretty much says it all ... he loves lying Trump.

giphy.gif

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6 hours ago, phillysailor said:

The transportation of critically ill patients on ventilators, infusions and monitoring equipment isn't altogether without risk. There would have to be a very clear benefit to subject a patient to these risks and the risk of suffering an emergency in the chamber when at depth. The technicians along for the dive would have to be highly trained and capable of handling these emergencies, as well as for any other patients along for the ride. Terminal cleaning of CT scanners can put them down for hours after use on COVID patients, so a monoplace chamber wouldn't be efficient, it would have to be multiple.

It is suspected that some patients on hi flow oxygen might be in a phase of disease where a bridge therapy such as hyperbaric chamber O2 could allow them to avoid intubation, helpfully during a phase when their mechanical accouterments are minimal. However, these patients are, by design, the very ones most likely to suffer cytokine storm or respiratory failure during an hours long dive, making trained personnel with intubation and critical care skills essential. These patients are all coughing freely, making the contamination of the environment exponentially worse than intubated patients, and posing risk to caregivers.

Plus, the amount of oxygen which can be carried in blood stream during a few hours, even when PaO2 is raised as high as possible, will never achieve the oxygen delivery afforded by hemoglobin 24/7

thanks for the clarification. yes, it would be a lot of extra work.

 

i guess it could only be an option for the rich and powerful then.......

 

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3 hours ago, mikewof said:

It's weirder than that. And apologies if I get this wrong, but the paper from him and Gattioni aren't that detailed yet. "Elasticity" isn't really a clear use by itself, you have to use it with compliance; high compliance, low elastance versus low compliance, high elastance. It makes more sense to me when I think of it in terms of spring constants ... patient walks in at 70% oxygen saturation, speaking full sentences, the caregiver is like "WTF?" They find lungs with a high "spring constant" or in the words of Dr. Kyle-Sidell, a "thicker balloon." Then need to get oxygen up, so they'll often ventilate, invasively or not. Then the lungs do a whipsaw from high spring constant to low spring constant, they adjust the settings, the patient dies some 60% of the time. The new method (as Steam Flyer writes, they often HAVE to ventilate) is to give very low pressure and high oxygen, or even just give oxygen through the nose rather than ventilate.

To paraphrase Gettionia and Kyle-Siddel, this appears to be a brand new disease, not really like ARDS in the most important ways.

What you write about the SARS-CoV-2 doing the damage may or may not be right. But the really weird part is that these patients have apparently grown used to essentially living their lives at 70% saturation, the equivalent of spending a year at 10,000-some feet in La Paz Bolivia, then taking a leisurely jaunt to the top of Illimani. We know that SARS-CoV-2 can take away health from the people it infects, but how can it temporarily grant superpowers to the people it infects? Kyle-Siddel doesn't address that, but it seems as if the SARS-CoV-2 is coinciding with some other issue that forces people to build up a tolerance to lack of lung function. And that takes months and years, it's not something that can just pop out fully formed as soon as some guy rubs his nose in a dead bat or whatever in China a few months ago.

you realise ards is a syndrome not a disease? its the name given to a set of symptoms?

3 hours ago, frenchie said:

AEC-2?  I tried reading up on it, but that shit's way over my head. 

"Compliance" in this context, is a bit over my head as well.  And I can tell that you're telling me I misunderstood it, but I can't tell what you're trying to explain.

Apparently  -  and I'm just repeating what I've read & half-understand   -  what normally triggers panting & shortness of breath & so on isn't actually lack of oxygen, but carbon monoxide level.  So the thinking (last time I lurked a discussion about it) was that the virus somehow fucks with that mechanism?  I don't recall the details, because it's over my head. 

But you don't get superpowers.  Your lips still turn blue.  You still faint & fall over 3 steps away from your hospital bed, on the way to the bathroom.  There was some agonized pondering, in one thread, about patients who'd been sent home when they seemed fine, or recovered... and that this might have happened to in the meanwhile. 

yes, breathing is a reflex to high levels of co2 in the blood. its not oxygen dependent, except in some cases, usually involving smokers.

 

and yes, this virus does seem to fuck with that mechanism...

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50 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

you realise ards is a syndrome not a disease? its the name given to a set of symptoms?

yes, breathing is a reflex to high levels of co2 in the blood. its not oxygen dependent, except in some cases, usually involving smokers.

 

and yes, this virus does seem to fuck with that mechanism...

Sounds more like carbon monoxide poisoning than high altitude. You don't know you're fucked till yer dead.

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Just had a dig through the bookmarks... "silent hypoxia" is the technical term, I guess. 

Apparently also happens with some congenital heart defects, where not enough blood gets sent to the lungs.  Also: the old classic, carbon monoxide poisoning, or suicide by breathing inert gas, where you just... fall asleeep & never wake up.  

But anyways  -  from last week, worth a read:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html

 

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15 hours ago, Steganographic Tom said:

Has Cliff weighed in on the whole nanothermite thing, A Sock That's Randumbly Operated?

He’s not a sock since Random was actually banned, so...

On a related note, lucky for us Youtube is now banning any opinions contrary to the WHOs recommendations. We know how well they’ve done with this so far, we don’t need any other information. Runningdumb should be thrilled.

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1 minute ago, chum said:

On a related note, lucky for us Youtube is now banning any opinions contrary to the WHOs recommendations. We know how well they’ve done with this so far, we don’t need any other information. Runningdumb should be thrilled.

giphy.gif

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What’s the laugh for, you think that’s funny?

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Yep.  fucking hilarious, all the right wingers will go rabid with rage and swallow their tongues!

Can I watch?

giphy.gif

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Don't complain to me about it, email google. 

But in principle, if it reduces the opportunity deceptive and deliberately misleading material (lies) to be spread, I''m all for it.

Trumptards will go into withdrawal if they can't get their fix of lies.  Has Trump tweeted his out rage yet?

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33 minutes ago, frenchie said:

Just had a dig through the bookmarks... "silent hypoxia" is the technical term, I guess. 

Apparently also happens with some congenital heart defects, where not enough blood gets sent to the lungs.  Also: the old classic, carbon monoxide poisoning, or suicide by breathing inert gas, where you just... fall asleeep & never wake up.  

But anyways  -  from last week, worth a read:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html

 

Thank you, excellent. He mentioned Nick Caputo, I've met him.

Did you notice this ... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/nyregion/co-op-board-coronavirus-nyc.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

Sometimes things like this bring out the worse in people.

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Couldn't find an exact thread but since Mikey is the King of it's just another flu am putting it here

No COVID-19 Is Nothing Like The Flu  It's an op/ed from Scientific American  This is just a snippet in the summary area - it's not a long read and imo well worthwhile. I am guess Mikey no Likey it.

 

The question remains. Can we accurately compare the toll of the flu to the toll of the coronavirus pandemic?

To do this, we have to compare counted deaths to counted deaths, not counted deaths to wildly inflated statistical estimates. If we compare, for instance, the number of people who died in the United States from COVID-19 in the second full week of April to the number of people who died from influenza during the worst week of the past seven flu seasons (as reported to the CDC), we find that the novel coronavirus killed between 9.5 and 44 times more people than seasonal flu. In other words, the coronavirus is not anything like the flu: It is much, much worse.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Couldn't find an exact thread but since Mikey is the King of it's just another flu am putting it here

No COVID-19 Is Nothing Like The Flu  It's an op/ed from Scientific American  This is just a snippet in the summary area - it's not a long read and imo well worthwhile. I am guess Mikey no Likey it.

 

The question remains. Can we accurately compare the toll of the flu to the toll of the coronavirus pandemic?

To do this, we have to compare counted deaths to counted deaths, not counted deaths to wildly inflated statistical estimates. If we compare, for instance, the number of people who died in the United States from COVID-19 in the second full week of April to the number of people who died from influenza during the worst week of the past seven flu seasons (as reported to the CDC), we find that the novel coronavirus killed between 9.5 and 44 times more people than seasonal flu. In other words, the coronavirus is not anything like the flu: It is much, much worse.

 

 

Just one problem ...

I never once claimed it was "just another flu." Mainly because that's a nonsensical bit of bullshit that you made up and ascribed to me because you're apparently so misinformed that you have have no idea how ridiculous that statement is. Seriously D.Ranger, did you bother paying attention in school? 

The flu is a completely different virus than a coronavirus. It has totally different mechanical properties, it responds to the free surface energy of the cell and the impinged osmotic gradient in a completely different way. Coronavirus has a lot in common with the rhinovirus, but it has very little in common with the flu. This isn't stuff that you need a fucking Ph.D. to understand, dear sir, it's something you can understand with a $20 knock off smart phone and an internet connection.

So why the fuck did you bring that inspired bit of nonsense to this beautiful thread? This thread is a celebration of learned doctors, not hillbillies like you ...

 

 

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I notice @mikewof has ignored the latest CDC forecasts. Going to 3000/day Mikey. 90,000/month. 

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

Just one problem ...

I never once claimed it was "just another flu.

 

You Mikey are a lying cunt.  A quick search, and I just cherry picked the obvious ones.

17 March

"For me, it's 0.15%, about the same as seasonal flu."

16 March

"Regular old seasonal flu is kicking this COVID-19's ass in the death count. "

14 March

"and the death toll is somewhere right around seasonal flu"

28 February

"the aftermath of Corona will be a blip compared to the regular old seasonal flu and community pneumonia"

 

image.thumb.png.18b311ae740ded1ad2eee6a9c9ebc404.png

 

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48 minutes ago, astro said:

 

You Mikey are a lying cunt.  A quick search, and I just cherry picked the obvious ones.

17 March

"For me, it's 0.15%, about the same as seasonal flu."

16 March

"Regular old seasonal flu is kicking this COVID-19's ass in the death count. "

14 March

"and the death toll is somewhere right around seasonal flu"

28 February

"the aftermath of Corona will be a blip compared to the regular old seasonal flu and community pneumonia"

 

image.thumb.png.18b311ae740ded1ad2eee6a9c9ebc404.png

 

To be fair. Mikey didn't say a coronavirus was like an influenza virus.

He just said that this coronavirus is not as bad as the influenza virus.

 

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mikey's forecasts are aging almost as well as trump's

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33 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

mikey's forecasts are aging almost as well as trump's

And when they're correct, you just censor me for a few days, right?

You must be the only strip mall lawyer in the country who looks at the Bill of Rights as an inconvenience rather than a godsend.

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5 minutes ago, mikewof said:

And when they're correct, you just censor me for a few days, right?

You must be the only strip mall lawyer in the country who looks at the Bill of Rights as an inconvenience rather than a godsend.

TWEHUhDeXyWgRvw523h5RLSinNWUB7WXzswMMBd3

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17 minutes ago, mikewof said:

And when they're correct, you just censor me for a few days, right?

You must be the only strip mall lawyer in the country who looks at the Bill of Rights as an inconvenience rather than a godsend.

Your conception of who the bill of rights applies to is about as accurate as your coronavirus predictions. I guess I should not be surprised that a pseudoscientist also pretends to know law. 

I dare you to go and read your posts about Covid deaths starting about March 1st.  

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1 hour ago, Ease the sheet. said:

To be fair. Mikey didn't say a coronavirus was like an influenza virus.

He just said that this coronavirus is not as bad as the influenza virus.

 

Actually, most of that stuff is still correct. Let's do a tally ...

  1. The worst year yet for SAR-CoV (this year, versus 2004) has killed some 250,000 people globally, compared to  some 625,000 for flu. Link.  Score 1 for Mike, 0 for Random/Ease/Clean
  2. According to the Lancet study, the current mortality rate is thus about 0.2%, but that assumes most cases are undetected. So if we instead use the WHO figures, you'll win on this one, and the mortality is closer to your estimate than mine. (Though it is pretty ridiculous, because that only records the SAR-CoV-2 infections that are "confirmed" and most of the time, those infected do not end up in the hospital or tested for the virus. But still, I'll give you three this one, thus Score 0 for Mike, 1 for Random/East/Clean.
  3. The global death toll is still actually less than seasonal flu, Score 1 for Mike, 0 for Random/East
  4. The aftermath of "Corona" is still actually much, much (much!!!) less than seasonal flu and community pneumonia, which comes to about 1,460,000 per year combined, versus 250,000 for "Corona."

So total score, Mike has 3, vs. Random/Ease/Clean with 1. I guess I win. Clean, time to ban me for a few days!

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10 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Your conception of who the bill of rights applies to is about as accurate as your coronavirus predictions. I guess I should not be surprised that a pseudoscientist also pretends to know law. 

I dare you to go and read your posts about Covid deaths starting about March 1st.  

The Bill of Rights applies to Americans. And yes, I'm quite clear that as some marginally-compensated lackey for this website that you can run home with the ball whenever you like. You have the editorial maturity of a latchkey kid who gets high on model airplane glue.

As to reading old posts, I just did, in Random's little Memes. Random/Astro is apparently my unpaid employee. He gathers what I write, and I apparently won. You apparently lost. Sorry, but that's what happen when you "don't care" about all those deaths around the world.

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3 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

keep digging 

I don't have to dig. Random is doing it for me.

Good boy!

It's hilarious that I can't be bothered to read my old posts, and I don't even remember them. But this Australian with the mind of spotted dick pudding so hangs on my every word that he catalogs it all for me. I seriously have to put this Random fellow on the payroll, he's really good at doing that boring job.

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20 minutes ago, mikewof said:

I can't be bothered to read my old posts, and I don't even remember them.

17 March

"For me, it's 0.15%, about the same as seasonal flu."

16 March

"Regular old seasonal flu is kicking this COVID-19's ass in the death count. "

14 March

"and the death toll is somewhere right around seasonal flu"

28 February

"the aftermath of Corona will be a blip compared to the regular old seasonal flu and community pneumonia"

3 hours ago, mikewof said:

Just one problem ...

I never once claimed it was "just another flu.

TWEHUhDeXyWgRvw523h5RLSinNWUB7WXzswMMBd3

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On 5/1/2020 at 10:08 PM, mikewof said:

Thank you, excellent. He mentioned Nick Caputo, I've met him.

Did you notice this ... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/nyregion/co-op-board-coronavirus-nyc.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

Sometimes things like this bring out the worse in people.

Co-op board members, in this city, are always the worst humanity has to offer, for some reason.  In twenty years, I've met exactly one that wasn't a scumbag.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, frenchie said:

Co-op board members, in this city, are always the worst humanity has to offer, for some reason.  In twenty years, I've met exactly one that wasn't a scumbag.

They gave my mom so much grief for her little place near Carnegie Hall, that she sold her co-op and took out a loan to get roughly the same type of apartment for 3x the price that was a condo rather than co-op. For some reason the condo boards are less offensive there, I've no idea why, given that condo boards in in the rest of the country can be right cunticiferous bobs too. Maybe the higher maintenance costs make the owners grouchy?

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Covid Queen Mike.... Why don't you just stop and smell the coffee for a change?

It's good. It's robust. It has a personality all it's own, and, much like bacon, it makes even people who don't like coffee, or bacon, want to be alive, awake, and doing something.

 Just try it.

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2 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

 Just try it.

Ist thisse somthinge he shoude injectte withe the lysolle?

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Just now, Snaggletooth said:

Ist thisse somthinge he shoude injectte withe the lysolle?

No.

It's a mind thing....

 

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The sad and pathetic (and kinda funny) thing is that he claims to be scientifically graphing shit since the beginning as some sort of expert, like anyone gives a fuck, and then is likely the most wrong and inept person here.  AND, no one likes him.  Some people have weird hobbies.

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6 hours ago, mikewof said:

the condo boards are less offensive there,

where?

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3 hours ago, roundthebuoys said:

The sad and pathetic (and kinda funny) thing is that he claims to be scientifically graphing shit since the beginning as some sort of expert, like anyone gives a fuck, and then is likely the most wrong and inept person here.  AND, no one likes him.  Some people have weird hobbies.

I like him.

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17 minutes ago, roundthebuoys said:

Who?

Oh, wait.  Were you talking about me?

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On 5/2/2020 at 2:20 AM, phillysailor said:

It is suspected that some patients on hi flow oxygen might be in a phase of disease where a bridge therapy such as hyperbaric chamber O2 could allow them to avoid intubation, helpfully during a phase when their mechanical accouterments are minimal. However, these patients are, by design, the very ones most likely to suffer cytokine storm or respiratory failure during an hours long dive, making trained personnel with intubation and critical care skills essential. 

Couple of points on the hyperbaric chamber idea.

First, chambers typically have airlock, so getting medical staff in quickly isn't a problem.

But the big issue is that hyperbaric oxygen fucks your lungs quite quickly and promotes a significant immune response at PPO2s much above 1.0. I've done a couple of sessions at a PPO2 of 2.8 for six hours, and had a horrid dry cough after the second, with a fair bit of discomfort. So I passed on further sessions.

So you might as well just breath pure O2 for PPO2 of 1, and avoid all the issues with a chamber.

Strange thing that has not been well researched to my knowledge - ongoing high PpO2 exposure - in the 1.5 range for at least a few hours a day for several days - leads to some very vivid and bizarre lucid dreaming episodes. Just anecdotal, but I am curious as to what it is doing to your brain chemistry.

 

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On 5/5/2020 at 5:34 PM, mikewof said:

It's hilarious that I can't be bothered to read my old posts, and I don't even remember them.

Mikey really good shills remember their lies.  You clearly aren't that good at this.

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20 minutes ago, Se7en said:

Couple of points on the hyperbaric chamber idea.

First, chambers typically have airlock, so getting medical staff in quickly isn't a problem.

But the big issue is that hyperbaric oxygen fucks your lungs quite quickly and promotes a significant immune response at PPO2s much above 1.0. I've done a couple of sessions at a PPO2 of 2.8 for six hours, and had a horrid dry cough after the second, with a fair bit of discomfort. So I passed on further sessions.

So you might as well just breath pure O2 for PPO2 of 1, and avoid all the issues with a chamber.

Strange thing that has not been well researched to my knowledge - ongoing high PpO2 exposure - in the 1.5 range for at least a few hours a day for several days - leads to some very vivid and bizarre lucid dreaming episodes. Just anecdotal, but I am curious as to what it is doing to your brain chemistry.

 

That was the report.from Gitonini and Kyle, they switched from higher pressure ambient air to lower-pressure (or no pressure) high oxygen, and in Germany at least they had high recovery. (I haven't seen a follow-up from Maimodedes.)

It's as if the lungs are damaged in some way and the higher pressure seems to cause an embolism or some kind of traumatic response.

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4 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

Covid Queen Mike.... Why don't you just stop and smell the coffee for a change?

It's good. It's robust. It has a personality all it's own, and, much like bacon, it makes even people who don't like coffee, or bacon, want to be alive, awake, and doing something.

 Just try it.

What specifically do you want here?

Should i suck up the nightly news reports, stop reading journals and just ingest the fast food thrown in front of me?

Would that satisfy you in some way? Does lack of conformity in the thoughts of the people around you give you distress?

Are you the slightest bit curious why some populations are hit as if by a wrecking ball, while others are barely grazed?  Because if you can answer these questions with some level of logic, I would be more than happy to accept your explanations and stop reading.

But if you can't, perhaps you need to put down your coffee and splash some cold water on your face, because you're apparently asleep.

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8 minutes ago, mikewof said:

That was the report.from Gitonini and Kyle, they switched from higher pressure ambient air to lower-pressure (or no pressure) high oxygen, and in Germany at least they had high recovery. (I haven't seen a follow-up from Maimodedes.)

It's as if the lungs are damaged in some way and the higher pressure seems to cause an embolism or some kind of traumatic response.

Mikey has no fucking idea, same as his hero Trump.  The reason many people are dying on intubation is nothing to do with their lungs.

Mikey is an evil disinformation agent who propagates what ever he is told to.

Coronavirus blood-clot mystery intensifies

Purple rashes, swollen legs, clogged catheters and sudden death — blood clots, large and small, are a frequent complication of COVID-19, and researchers are just beginning to untangle why. For weeks, reports have poured in of the disease’s effects throughout the body, many of which are caused by clots. “This is like a storm of blood clots,” says Behnood Bikdeli, a fourth-year cardiology fellow at Columbia University in New York City. Anyone with a severe illness is at risk of developing clots, but hospitalized patients with COVID-19 appear to be more susceptible.

Studies from the Netherlands and France suggest that clots appear in 20% to 30% of critically ill COVID-19 patients1,2. Scientists have a few plausible hypotheses to explain the phenomenon, and they are just beginning to launch studies aimed at gaining mechanistic insights. But with the death toll rising, they are also scrambling to test clot-curbing medications.

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1 hour ago, frenchie said:

where?

In NYC? The condo boards seem to not have the bellyfull of vinegar and bile common to the co-op boards.

Of course even in the condos the maintenance is high. My HOA fees are about $500/year in my neighborhood. But they're at least that much or twice per month at a NYC condo. And a NYC co-op they're $1k to $3k per month. I can understand why co-ops breed crankiness in the boards.

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8 minutes ago, mikewof said:

An easy-read follow-up on the call to change the ventilator protocols, 

Mikey is big on 'protocols'.  Not techniques or Prcedures or treatments ... just Protocols.

If only Protocols were implemented as Mikey says, no one would die!!!!

Trump is not to blame for doctors not following the correct Protocols!!!!

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19 hours ago, mikewof said:

An easy-read follow-up on the call to change the ventilator protocols, 

https://time.com/5820556/ventilators-covid-19/

Maybe if you'd bothered to read my first post in the thread, instead of getting all defensive about it, instead... you would have come across that article 10 days ago?  When I posted it, in my very first post in this thread.

 

 

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On 4/30/2020 at 3:38 PM, frenchie said:

Uh... Mike?  I brought this up ten days ago, when I was trying to get you to look past your co-infection obsession. 

I linked to an article in Time magazine, from two weeks ago.

https://time.com/5820556/ventilators-covid-19/

It's great that you're catching up, but... it's hardly "staggering", at this point, it's more like "old hat".

 

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1 hour ago, frenchie said:

Maybe if you'd bothered to read my first post in the thread, instead of getting all defensive about it, instead... you would have come across that article 10 days ago?  When I posted it, in my very first post in this thread.

 

 

I remembered that you posted it. The difference was that the Gittonini/Siddel work isolated the problem. It was the pressure.

The reason I reposted it wasn't for you, but rather a handful of posters who avoid anything above the fifth grade reading level.

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1 hour ago, frenchie said:

 

And again, it's far from old hat. There is a world of difference between providers hearing someone say "don't use ventilators" and fellow physicians going public with their findings on how to specifically adjust the vent protocols to save lives from the intubation itself that may have been killing people.

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

adjust the vent protocols

So if Mikey keeps repeating Trump Strawmen, I guess it's OK for me to repeat myself.

Mikey is big on 'protocols'.  Not techniques or Procedures or treatments ... just Protocols.

If only Protocols were implemented as Mikey says, no one would die!!!!

Trump is not to blame for doctors not following the correct Protocols!!!!

And then there is this thing about malpractice??????  

"

anastasia2657 a month ago

There is no way that an emergency room doctor, who is an employee of the hospital, could go out on the internet of all places, four or five times and say that they are doing the wrong thing in the hospital he works in and not get in trouble with hospital administration, a question that he evaded both on Web Doctor (when asked by a doctor) and by Jason Goodman. The astonishing fact that he actually worked with Colleen Smith, who caused such a rukus with her lying in that media interview and even caused the hospital to publicly deny what she said, astounds me. Goodman had every right to ask him the questions he did - whether he too was a medical simulation expert, and what the hospital administration thought of his going out on the internet and telling everyone that they are treating the patients in the wrong way."

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

It was the pressure.

and volume, and oxygen level, and "inattention to the vascular side"... according to Marini & Gattioni, in the article you started the thread with. 

As Dr. Lyn-Kew says, in the Time article: "The world is not a dichotomous, black-and-white place, but a lot of people are having trouble with that."

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3 hours ago, mikewof said:

And again, it's far from old hat.

Mikey, tell us about your involvement in the Colorado Truth 9/11 movement.

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16 hours ago, frenchie said:

and volume, and oxygen level, and "inattention to the vascular side"... according to Marini & Gattioni, in the article you started the thread with. 

As Dr. Lyn-Kew says, in the Time article: "The world is not a dichotomous, black-and-white place, but a lot of people are having trouble with that."

The volume and the oxygen levels are things they can adjust, but it seems to be the pressure that was causing the problem with the compliance vs. elastance. Roughly, P=nRT/V, so the pressure is really the thing they're modulating. By dialing up the oxygen, they're able to lower the pressure and let the patient's natural elastance control the volume, since air is normally only about 20% oxygen. The compliance "switch" the found seems to have something to do with some other problems in the lungs, perhaps not even having anything to do with the infection, it's hard to know. But evidence suggests that COPD is increasing even while general lung health improves. That may seem counter-intuitive to you, but the results they've seen here support that. COPD does show that inverted lung elastance because the damaged lung tissue is the symptom of the COPD.

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On 4/30/2020 at 10:21 AM, mikewof said:

My friend is a medical aggregator, she came across some results from Germany where they used these new protocols on some overflow patients from France, six critically ill patients, they saved all six.

Perhaps the reason Germany has so few deaths from this is because of those protocols? The idea of a disease flipping from high compliance to low compliance like that is so freaking weird. I see that with my rubber ozone test strips, they get a lot of surface damage from the ozone interaction, with high compliance, but as soon as they are "inflated" there is interfacial damage and they suddenly become low compliance. I had to add an entirely new measurement because the before versus after the inflation was so nonlinear.

You mentioned that your updated protocols changed the ARDS survivability, why did they no longer need your liquid ventilation after that?

It IS interesting.  I hope they are proven correct.

im not sure why you are getting shit regarding this.   Maybe it’s just continued scare effort? 

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17 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

It IS interesting.  I hope they are proven correct.

im not sure why you are getting shit regarding this.   Maybe it’s just continued scare effort? 

Based on the results of the revised protocols in Germany, we'll presumably see the results in the mortality rates same as Germany. I'm told that they're just switching to oxygen in a lot of cases. As for the shitfights, I guess we're basically a bunch of junkyard dogs, we can't become show-poodles without some effort.

Lungs are a really odd organ, they're not like livers and hearts and kidneys and such, because they're an exterior organ, exposed to the elements. So the nature of lung diseases and treatments changes with the environment. Back in the 1950s, the air was different ... there was a lot of course mode particulates, lots of CO, lots of VOCs, lots of Pb, but not a lot of NOx, because our combustion processes didn't burn lean back then, we didn't need them to burn lean, it was easier on our processes to burn rich. Now we have lots and lots of NOx, very little Pb, very little course mode particulates, and an atmospheric ocean of submicron particulates, not so much CO, still plenty of VOCs. The air is contaminated in a different way. We've swapped to a degree, from emphysema to COPD. We're healthier because we smoke less, we get exercise, but we live in airtight homes and when we go outside we get a shock with lots and lots of ozone pollution. Lungs behave differently than they did in the 1950s because they're contaminated in a different way now than they were then.  COPD is a fascinating disease, in that canary-in-the-coal-mine kind of way. And many of us have it, at least to a small degree.

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On 5/5/2020 at 8:31 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

dare you to go and read your posts about Covid deaths starting about March 1st.  

Nobody has got enough time to plough through all that waffle and bullshit, not even a Wofsey. :lol:

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