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JimBowie

Die! Die! Die!

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God I hate looking at fckn IOR boats under spinnaker.  I "came of age" in sailing late in life and right at the end of IOR and start of J24s.  I remember wallowing around in our little salty bay in the old pigs, like the Ranger 28.  Sure, those fat fuckers with pinchy ends out-pointed everything else, but what shit bags on a reach or off the water.  Broaching bitches!  Even owned a 30' MORC boat (Santana 30/30 GP) that, even with the elliptical keel upgrade, still rocked itself into a Chinese death roll every fckn downwind leg.  Good riddance to that POS and the very concept of them.

Don't get me wrong.  I love old designs.  Give me a Herrshoff Cat boat or 110 or 210 any day of the weekend.  Classics.  Sleek.  Ahead of their time.  But rules-based; money-chasing; pickle-disk one-off shit-bags.  Nah.  Thank god I lived at the time sport-boats became popular.

Today's rant brought to you by @Editor for posting the article on the mythical mystical FP.  "Dive! Dive! Dive!"

 

https://sailinganarchy.com/2020/04/30/85391/

Police-Car__.jpg

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That's nothing. 

Here's Rothmans, an IOR Whitbread maxi, going down the mineshaft during the Hobart.  Loads of water in the boat via the main hatch.

Huge props to Rick Tomlinson for the pic.

Rick Tomlinson : Rothmans.jpg

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One needs to remember that Admiral's Cup photo's in the Solent have the boats hard running thru short, steep waves due to large currents. It isn't all the IOR's fault. The crews are pushing those boats to their utmost - full size kites, running deep as possible. No room to escape when a hole opens up under the forefoot. Look at the waves visible over PC's deck.

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I love IOR.  Grew up as a skinny kid and then teenager in Hampshire late 70's early 80's. Worked as a yard rat in a small boat building yard in Emsworth.  Spent my summers walking the docks and floats around Chichester Harbour, Portsmouth, Hamble, Cowes, Yarmouth etc.  Getting whatever ride I could. One of my favourite memories caught on film too.  Wish I could find the pic.  I'm on bow, we go into a gybe when the boat does a weather broach to starboard. No pole clipped. Boat goes over and I go over with it.  Keith, (pretty famous bloke it turns out), the driver, recovers the broach but can't gybe 'coz the bow guy isn't there.  I've grabbed a lazy guy and I'm clambering back on the boat at the transom. Keith turns to me and says, what the fcuk are you doing back here?  We need to gybe.  NOW!

God I miss the screaming.

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Totally agree.

It's possible too that they were tolerated for a bit longer than sanity would have suggested because of the sheer amount of room they offered down below - particularly in the tumblehome era.  Nothing like some of the quarter and half tonners which offered spacious accommodation for five plus the beer for the weekend away.  Try that in your Farr 30 or whatever.

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Add a blooper. That stabiiized everything.......not.  And made jibing so much easier especially if a sailmaker convinced the owner that a staysail underneath it all would help too

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6 hours ago, P_Wop said:

That's nothing. 

Here's Rothmans, an IOR Whitbread maxi, going down the mineshaft during the Hobart.  Loads of water in the boat via the main hatch.

Huge props to Rick Tomlinson for the pic.

Rick Tomlinson : Rothmans.jpg

Lordy you can feel the rig and sheet loads from that pic.  Everything on the boat ready to explode.

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4 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

Not confined to IOR boats

An image from the Beken Archive

That was an epic day of Solent racing... the needles channel was really fun that day! :o :P

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1 hour ago, bgytr said:

Lordy you can feel the rig and sheet loads from that pic.  Everything on the boat ready to explode.

Reminds me of the IOR boat joke. 
 

15 knots of breeze, downwind speed 9 knots. 25 knots of breeze, downwind speed 9 knots. 35 knots of breeze, downwind speed 9 knots. 

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How can you hate on the boats most of us grew up on?Sure the were slow and out of control down wind but dam they were fun.

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1 hour ago, Jkdubz808 said:

Reminds me of the IOR boat joke. 
 

15 knots of breeze, downwind speed 9 knots. 25 knots of breeze, downwind speed 9 knots. 35 knots of breeze, downwind speed 9 knots. 

You did 9!

The log on the Swan 44 I did my first Hobart on only went to 8!

And yes I did see it against the stop pin.

Saw the apparent wind dial do the same & it's stop was at 70.  That's when you appreciate an old IOR boat upwind!

 

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56 minutes ago, ROADKILL666 said:

How can you hate on the boats most of us grew up on?Sure the were slow and out of control down wind but dam they were fun.

Also made you appreciate the lighter loads on the newer sportboats!

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I could watch this all day...

 

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"Lighter loads" haha. Okay....if you take  75% of the mass out of the system well, yes.

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3 hours ago, bgytr said:

Lordy you can feel the rig and sheet loads from that pic.  Everything on the boat ready to explode.

broke the Admirals leg or something?

 

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59 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

You did 9!

The log on the Swan 44 I did my first Hobart on only went to 8!

And yes I did see it against the stop pin.

Saw the apparent wind dial do the same & it's stop was at 70.  That's when you appreciate an old IOR boat upwind!

 

As opposed to last generation, that were intent on breaking apart under your feet or the noodle rig launching itself out of the boat. 

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3 hours ago, ROADKILL666 said:

How can you hate on the boats most of us grew up on?Sure the were slow and out of control down wind but dam they were fun.

They weren't slow then.

45 years of development in design has to be considered.

45 years before the IOR was Stormy Weather and Folkboats - think a 55 foot IOR boat or a Quarter Tonner wouldn't be a whole lot faster?

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What I remember when transitioning from dinghies including FDs to these in the early 80s was the terrific quarter wake and thinking man, somebody should be out there on a board. Surfs up! 

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IOR maxi ratings were zero PHRF

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13 hours ago, P_Wop said:

That's nothing. 

Here's Rothmans, an IOR Whitbread maxi, going down the mineshaft during the Hobart.  Loads of water in the boat via the main hatch.

Huge props to Rick Tomlinson for the pic.

Rick Tomlinson : Rothmans.jpg

Furthest man aft, apart from Rick Tomlinson of course, one Gordon Magure. Now hold that thought and scroll down

11 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

Not confined to IOR boats

An image from the Beken Archive

Who do you think was the furthest man aft on Silke? Take a guess.

Yup. Same man. See a pattern developing?

Also, I heard that the bowman on Silke was actually on the bow when she went under, and he was still there when she popped back up. Can anyone confirm or refute that?

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14 hours ago, JimBowie said:

  Thank god I lived at the time sport-boats became popular.

I’m out fitting my Fareast28R so I can get broaching this summer when the crew doesn’t stay aft were they should be offwind with a 58 rating.

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

I’m out fitting my Fareast28R so I can get broaching this summer when the crew doesn’t stay aft were they should be offwind with a 58 rating.

You wouldn't have to tell me twice, I remember when we were racing J80s in big breeze and we all squeezed back and they rate twice as high. Seriously a 58? Must be a very fun boat.

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16 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

I love IOR. 

I'm with you.  It was a great time to be a teenage dock-rat.  C&C half-tonner one weekend.  Choate-40 the next.  The occasional gig on an Ericson-46 or two-tonner in between.  Getting a gig on a competitive boat for BBS or LBRW or SDYC made one the envy of the local club crowd.  getting on a boat for Clipper Cup or SORC or beyond made you a demigod.  IMO ,there's just nothing out there today that compares with scale and grandeur of the ocean-racing scene in the IOR era .... so many programs, from club-level to international, if you were motivated and good you could go pretty much anywhere and get on a boat.

Yeah, they could be a mess downwind.  And, yeah, they never could get out of their own wave-train, no matter how hard you pushed the hole in the water just got deeper.

But the racing was great, the new designs and gadgets coming out every year kept things interesting, as a bow-guy the permutations involved keeping four masthead halyards straight with kite+blooper+staysail+fraculator while planning for a likely gibe-and-peel at the corner... great stuff. 

I'm glad I *didn't* miss it. 

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2 hours ago, Black Sox said:

Also, I heard that the bowman on Silke was actually on the bow when she went under, and he was still there when she popped back up. Can anyone confirm or refute that?

He was on the bow - went under about 15' and popped up off the stern. :D

You can see his head just off the rudder.

 

Silk II crash 3.gif

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2 hours ago, Black Sox said:

Furthest man aft, apart from Rick Tomlinson of course, one Gordon Magure. Now hold that thought and scroll down

Who do you think was the furthest man aft on Silke? Take a guess.

Yup. Same man. See a pattern developing?

Also, I heard that the bowman on Silke was actually on the bow when she went under, and he was still there when she popped back up. Can anyone confirm or refute that?

from what i heard: he was pushed to the deck by water... (+/- 2.5 meter under water...)

 

and i heard it was the light shute in the pic, since they had already blown the heavy....

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

He was on the bow - went under about 15' and popped up off the stern. :D

You can see his head just off the rudder.

 

Silk II crash 3.gif

 

1 hour ago, daan62 said:

from what i heard: he was pushed to the deck by water... (+/- 2.5 meter under water...)

 

and i heard it was the light shute in the pic, since they had already blown the heavy....

Thanks SJB and daan.

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3 hours ago, d'ranger said:

You wouldn't have to tell me twice, I remember when we were racing J80s in big breeze and we all squeezed back and they rate twice as high. Seriously a 58? Must be a very fun boat.

Not me...yet. 

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

He was on the bow - went under about 15' and popped up off the stern. :D

You can see his head just off the rudder.

 

Silk II crash 3.gif

holley shit!

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And let’s not forget the wipeouts were something to see

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@Sail4beer  That looks like it's about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.  Very cool. 

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I’m hoping. Dad wants to go for a ride

88, works out every day and eats healthy. Meanwhile, several of his contemporaries have expired from Covid in the past 3 weeks, so he really wants to go sailing and get a thrill in...

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13 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I’m hoping. Dad wants to go for a ride

88, works out every day and eats healthy. Meanwhile, several of his contemporaries have expired from Covid in the past 3 weeks, so he really wants to go sailing and get a thrill in...

Good on you - sorry I can't upvote a very deserving post but I got caught up in a downvote game in PA and last night decided even though I am petty and immature am not crazy as a loon - so tomorrow I am saving my reactions for good not weevil.  It's been some years and I still miss my dad and look forward to sharing yours vicariously. And I hope if I make it to 88 somebody would still care enough to give me a thrill.

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

as a bow-guy the permutations involved keeping four masthead halyards straight with kite+blooper+staysail+fraculator while planning for a likely gibe-and-peel at the corner... great stuff. 

I'm glad I *didn't* miss it. 

I'm glad to have been a part of that era and as a bowmen, never a dull moment up there!

We called it the deck of truth, the peak of knowledge. No lies could be told there, or else...

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Sailing as a Spectator Sport from the deck at Saint Francis Yacht Club during Big Boat Series. Place bets on which boat would go down next. Those were the good ol' days!

1980_big_boat_series.jpg.9fb0f3735ce68d1991783a76a0b6d8a3.jpg

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20 hours ago, fastyacht said:

I don't think of Herreshoff when I think of Catboats.

And yet he actually designed a bunch of them.  Some very interesting cat boats as it turns out and quite different than what people associate with Crosby cats or Barnegat bay cats and the like.  

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7 hours ago, carcrash said:

IOR maxi ratings were zero PHRF

A zero rating was set for PHRF to count down from as that was the fastest a boat could be expected to go.  Now, around there, the -90 group is having fun at the front of the fleet (when not just moving on to ORC), and the occasional cat or tri shows up at -125.   When Ellison's AC tri was playing around here people were estimating that it would rate about -400 or something.  That's when ToT handicapping REALLY doesn't work!

I've posted this before - best shot I ever took when riding the bow.

Emily Carr, SC-50 Cabo Race.jpg

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Looks like Merlin?

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28 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

Looks like Merlin?

I'm thinkin' SC-50.  Not enough stanchions between the mast and the bow for it to be Merlin...

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20 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I'm thinkin' SC-50.  Not enough stanchions between the mast and the bow for it to be Merlin...

SC-50 indeed.  Fun ride.  22 knots was the most we saw though.  Good enough for back then.

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1 hour ago, Left Shift said:

SC-50 indeed.  Fun ride.  22 knots was the most we saw though.  Good enough for back then.

:D

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Yup, what separated the men from the boys in the driver department were the ones who could keep the boat under the spinnaker until the bow went down.  There is a classic picture of Bravura w/ John Marshall driving on it's side with the rudder out of the water and you can tell he still thinks he has her under control.  We used to say no problem, I got it just before the crash or should I say crashes.

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10 hours ago, sledracr said:

I'm with you.  It was a great time to be a teenage dock-rat.  C&C half-tonner one weekend.  Choate-40 the next.  The occasional gig on an Ericson-46 or two-tonner in between.  Getting a gig on a competitive boat for BBS or LBRW or SDYC made one the envy of the local club crowd.  getting on a boat for Clipper Cup or SORC or beyond made you a demigod.  IMO ,there's just nothing out there today that compares with scale and grandeur of the ocean-racing scene in the IOR era .... so many programs, from club-level to international, if you were motivated and good you could go pretty much anywhere and get on a boat.

Yeah, they could be a mess downwind.  And, yeah, they never could get out of their own wave-train, no matter how hard you pushed the hole in the water just got deeper.

But the racing was great, the new designs and gadgets coming out every year kept things interesting, as a bow-guy the permutations involved keeping four masthead halyards straight with kite+blooper+staysail+fraculator while planning for a likely gibe-and-peel at the corner... great stuff. 

I'm glad I *didn't* miss it. 

How many different coloured rolls of tape did you keep in your pocket?????

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13 hours ago, Left Shift said:

SC-50 indeed.  Fun ride.  22 knots was the most we saw though.  Good enough for back then.

Thank GOD, Bill Lee, Ron Moore, George Olson, Carl Schumacher  (it must have been the Humboldt weed) and a few others came around and designed some really fun boats. Eventually the rest of the world caught on.

boogie_boy2.thumb.jpg.a379b721b669e0cdbc4d4d347a311e68.jpg

merlin.thumb.jpg.c73f7c68f79a180a82753695b3ce58fe.jpg

7.jpg.24c41369af237030be7275fb579baad0.jpg

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13 hours ago, zenmasterfred said:

Yup, what separated the men from the boys in the driver department were the ones who could keep the boat under the spinnaker until the bow went down.  There is a classic picture of Bravura w/ John Marshall driving on it's side with the rudder out of the water and you can tell he still thinks he has her under control.  We used to say no problem, I got it just before the crash or should I say crashes.

The ultimate "We're gonna die" moment for me was on a Peterson 2-tonner going dead down in a good breeze.  We actually had the boat up in the pre-teens on some nice waves.  Bow wave over the lifelines. Hole in the ocean just about to the top of the keel.  2.2 Oz. kite up.  The chain in the Edson pedestal jumped off the sprocket.  Wheel spinning free.  Time froze.  We broached the right way, the kite blew up, emergency tiller slapped on and it was a sunny day again.  

The trick - when you had steering - was to keep the boat under the masthead.  And get the kite square to the boat.  Masthead starts to roll right, quick pump right to put the bow back under it and back down.  Repeat, repeat, repeat.  Feel the stern start to lift, look for the low spot ahead, get the boat vertical and send it.  Repeat, repeat, repeat. 

Could do that all day! ...except...well...could actually do it for about an hour.  

 

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Yup, great description.  Not a lot of drivers were really good at it and even the best wiped out sometimes, especially inshore with shorter and steeper waves.  Was great for the sailmaking business, I would always call for the next biggest kite on deck when we blew one up.  The 2.2 oz. kites were pretty bullet proof and the 1.5oz. kites could take a lot of abuse.

 

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All good advice.  Happy days.

A good method when it was really nuking was...

  • have one or two reefs in the main
  • ease the pole forward and down until the center seam of the heavy kite is pretty well lined up with the headstay
  • put a tweaker, or better, a heavy snatch block on the sheet, almost up to the shrouds.

And as above, steer to keep the boat under the kite.

The insides of the Line 7 smocks got pretty disturbing after an hour on the helm.

Remember, good judgment comes from experience. And most experience comes from bad judgment.

 

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Death rolls were the result of the driver not catching the very first small oscillation quickly.  After that, you were playing catchup and that's not a good game to play. 

Just like tapping your brakes early in snow.  Late braking is rarely productive.

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12 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

All good advice.  Happy days.

A good method when it was really nuking was...

  • have one or two reefs in the main
  • ease the pole forward and down until the center seam of the heavy kite is pretty well lined up with the headstay
  • put a tweaker, or better, a heavy snatch block on the sheet, almost up to the shrouds.

And as above, steer to keep the boat under the kite.

The insides of the Line 7 smocks got pretty disturbing after an hour on the helm.

Remember, good judgment comes from experience. And most experience comes from bad judgment.

 

Often used the lazy guy as the sheet to keep the chicken chute a little more under control.  Life downwind is much different these days.

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1 minute ago, zenmasterfred said:

Often used the lazy guy as the sheet to keep the chicken chute a little more under control.  Life downwind is much different these days.

Do they even make chicken chutes these days? 

Drum had a 3 ounce nylon one, but with huge head and clew patches. I remember a full twin-ply 2.2 with wire luffs on Burton Cutter, and a bloody dacron one on Pen Duick VI.  Which they blew out twice on the 73 Whitbread before the mast came down.

Evil sails to hoist, move around, and especially douse.

Burton Cutter's trip method was a good one.  Nobody had developed big enough snapshackles back then, so the tack was attached to the wire aftguy with a loop of old genoa sheet with a sheet bend in it.  To drop, grind the pole end down somewhere near the headstay, and hit the loop with a hatchet.  

Aaaargh, I'm old.....

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14 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

I remember a full twin-ply 2.2 with wire luffs

OMFG, kites with wire luffs.  I'd (quite happily) forgotten all about those.

What evil spawn-of-satan sailmaker thought THAT was a good idea?!?!?

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Yeah - if ever there was a warning that it was time for the chute to come down it's when you think things like "wish that sail had wire luffs". :D

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I am going to post what I always post  when this type of thread comes up:

These old boats got more people out racing than anything that came after. In our wildest dreams in 2020 we'll never see the numbers from back then.

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I love them. In or out of the water theres just something about the era and shape. (And yes, its a rare thing that looks that good in a broach). :)

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49 minutes ago, view at the front said:

I was particularly fond of wire guyes.  Nothing like bleeding on the foredeck.

 

Let’s not forget the bang when they blew.

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56 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I am going to post what I always post  when this type of thread comes up:

These old boats got more people out racing than anything that came after. In our wildest dreams in 2020 we'll never see the numbers from back then.

I agree - but that has nothing to do with flying a chute in an absurd amount of wind.

Which was more than anything the reason for the famous "IOR" death rolls and broaches.

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Parachute flares - speshully good for those heavy air drops.   Picture frame the bugger

......pull in what's left..

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2 hours ago, sledracr said:

OMFG, kites with wire luffs.  I'd (quite happily) forgotten all about those.

What evil spawn-of-satan sailmaker thought THAT was a good idea?!?!?

It was the rust stains on the luff sleeve after they had lived in the bilge soup for a couple of years that I found particularly attractive.

 

1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I am going to post what I always post  when this type of thread comes up:

These old boats got more people out racing than anything that came after. In our wildest dreams in 2020 we'll never see the numbers from back then.

True, but back then there were production race boats aimed at the family and the "Race-your-wallet" custom boat thing didn't come into play so much outside of the NYYC and St.Fancy.  Then the era of Kevlar then carbon fiber hit and operating costs when through the roof while usefulness plummeted.  Add in hired guns and the idea of you trimming for your wife with your daughter doing foredeck becomes frustrating.

There is a reason that J-Boats, Beneteau and some others who see the big picture are still in business.

 

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1 hour ago, ROADKILL666 said:

Let’s not forget the bang when they blew.

Wait. . . they can blow.  I just thought that it was me that could fail?

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50 minutes ago, wal' said:

Parachute flares - speshully good for those heavy air drops.   Picture frame the bugger

......pull in what's left..

we put it up , 

let God take it down .

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5 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Do they even make chicken chutes these days? 

Drum had a 3 ounce nylon one, but with huge head and clew patches. I remember a full twin-ply 2.2 with wire luffs on Burton Cutter, and a bloody dacron one on Pen Duick VI.  Which they blew out twice on the 73 Whitbread before the mast came down.

Evil sails to hoist, move around, and especially douse.

Burton Cutter's trip method was a good one.  Nobody had developed big enough snapshackles back then, so the tack was attached to the wire aftguy with a loop of old genoa sheet with a sheet bend in it.  To drop, grind the pole end down somewhere near the headstay, and hit the loop with a hatchet.  

Aaaargh, I'm old.....

We had a 2.2 that was cut down from the IOR legend Baybee.  It was mainly pink and modified with no shoulders.  We called it our "TIT" sail with all pointy ends.

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I am going to post what I always post  when this type of thread comes up:

These old boats got more people out racing than anything that came after. In our wildest dreams in 2020 we'll never see the numbers from back then.

Yep. 15 sailors on a 40' leadmine. Pure ballet of action at mark roundings done right. Battleship tillers on barn door rudders. Big IOR boats that you could do a distance race and not get to meet everyone on the crew!

 

While the boats have improved they have removed the number of people needed and the sport is the poorer for it, I believe.

 

WL

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On 5/1/2020 at 1:35 PM, P_Wop said:

That's nothing. 

Here's Rothmans, an IOR Whitbread maxi, going down the mineshaft during the Hobart.  Loads of water in the boat via the main hatch.

Huge props to Rick Tomlinson for the pic.

Rick Tomlinson : Rothmans.jpg

I was sitting forrard in the cockpit one day in a moment like this, the washboards were in but the hatch wasn't closed properly. When all the water cleared the washboards had floated out and we had knee high water through the boat. IOR boats handle even worse when water careens unchecked through the length of the boat.  

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4 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

These old boats got more people out racing than anything that came after. .

Was it the times or the boats or?

Agree that 2020 will never see the same participation numbers, but hard to say why. :(

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8 hours ago, White Lightning2 said:

Big IOR boats that you could do a distance race and not get to meet everyone on the crew!

Yep sitting in a pub (could have been any one of a number),  celebrating a line honours win on an 80' IOR maxi,  in full crew gear (a shirt).  Bloke in matching shirt walks up and asks "where did you get the shirt?"

"What watch were you on arsehole"  was my reply!  Bloody back of the boaters!

Oops now I are one.

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On 5/1/2020 at 6:35 PM, Black Sox said:

Furthest man aft, apart from Rick Tomlinson of course, one Gordon Magure. Now hold that thought and scroll down

Who do you think was the furthest man aft on Silke? Take a guess.

Yup. Same man. See a pattern developing?

Also, I heard that the bowman on Silke was actually on the bow when she went under, and he was still there when she popped back up. Can anyone confirm or refute that?

Yes he was, I had a couple of large rums with him that afternoon as we compared notes for the day. :P

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9 hours ago, randii said:

Was it the times or the boats or?

Agree that 2020 will never see the same participation numbers, but hard to say why. :(

I think it was a mix of all of that. It all combined just right. It is partly the boats. Think about the C&C 30 MK I. They sold hundreds of them and over the decades they have been used to win races, cruise, live aboard, and cross oceans. Think about the newest C&C 30. They race. That's it, they'll never have much of a use outside that, their OD class is pretty much dead, and certainly there are not hundreds of them :rolleyes:

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Another thing is the near total loss of small boat offshore racing.

Where is JOG, (Junior Offshore Group),  boats from about 18' to a max of 30' racing offshore & often overnight?

Who builds a modern version of the 1/4 tonner or even the 1/2 & 3/4 tonners that were the backbone of offshore fleets?

Even into the 90's we could pull top 20 to 30 line honours results to Hobart in a 42' cruiser racer with a fleet of well over 100. Now days a on a 50 foot CRUISER racer (X50) we were happy with top 70 and the same 42 footer didn't make the top 100!  The first sub 50 footer to finish was Maverick a 49' foiler in 19th place.

Yes the boats have got substantially faster for any given size,  but the only little boats racing are "bucket listers"  and some well campaigned older boats hoping for the "blow home" finish.

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Money reared its ugly head - mostly in the 80's.

Prior to that, while expensive, top level racing was available to regular people.

Peterson designed & built Ganbare with money from his grandmother. We all know what happened.

Holland designed & built Eygthene with family help. We all know what happened.

My Quarter Pounder was designed by Kirby for a local dentist who had it built and raced at the worlds - the third time he did that.

Locals here raced at the Admirals Cup numerous times - architects and other regular people at that financial level.

Now? to race at the top level you have to be seriously rich. Even racing at the top of "local" fleets requires serious coin. A single full race sail for a 35' would cost more than I have in my entire boat.

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Don't remember exactly when but tax laws changed so the race boat wasn't a write off changed everything. Then came the luxury tax. The breaks were shifted to vehicles over 6,000 so then doctors, lawyers and Indian Chiefs were all driving big pickups and SUVs. 

The good ole days.

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Its a cycle that sailing has gone through a few time in the past: costs escalate beyond belief, and eventually sense comes in and everyone downsizes.

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1 minute ago, d'ranger said:

The good ole days.

Truly.

One of the guys I raced for owned a company that made injection-molded plastic parts.  "I only make a fraction of a penny on each one, but I make a million of 'em a day..."

We'd race somewhere (Cabo, PV, whatever) and at some point after arriving he'd walk into town with a messenger-bag full of stuff.  Drop off some plastic dental-picks and a business card at some dental offices; drop off some paint-stirrers and business cards at some hardware stores.  Etc.

And then write off the whole cost of the trip - including flights down for the delivery crew and back-half flights home for the race crew - as a "business trip"

Oh, and at the end of the boat's competitive life, part of the game was to donate the boat to a local college sailing program.  And write off "market value", which was usually about 5x what the boat would actually sell for on the market.

Good old days indeed.

I think the IOR was a unique nexus of a couple of things - boats (even semi-custom boats) were attainable, owners were relatively willing to spend their money, designers were thinking well outside the box, and - love it or hate it - the IOR made it so you could take your boat to pretty much any level and have good racing.   Add in that last-year's custom top-flight boat could often be purchased for (practically) pennies on the dollar and still be pretty competitive, good boats trickling down from grand-prix to club level fun kept the growth going for a good long time.

I doubt we'll ever see that combination of circumstances again.

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14 hours ago, view at the front said:

 mainly pink and modified with no shoulders.  We called it our "TIT" sail with

Heh.  I raced on a Mull half-tonner called "knockers".  Owner was a SoCal plastic surgeon who had truly...uh... embraced his passions.

We had bright-pink kites and bloopers, all with big round red retrieval patches in the middle.

The stuffier yacht clubs reallllllly loved calling our name when we won their regattas <lol>

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5 hours ago, mad said:

Yes he was, I had a couple of large rums with him that afternoon as we compared notes for the day. :P

Each of you with a wheelbarrow for your manhoods?

How was your day? (That day, not today.)

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29 minutes ago, Black Sox said:

Each of you with a wheelbarrow for your manhoods?

??
Not sure where you’re heading with that one

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29 minutes ago, Black Sox said:

How was your day? (That day, not today.)

50 knot blast out by the Needles was entertaining, especially with full main, #3 and no sea-room. :P

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Money reared its ugly head - mostly in the 80's.

Prior to that, while expensive, top level racing was available to regular people.

Peterson designed & built Ganbare with money from his grandmother. We all know what happened.

Holland designed & built Eygthene with family help. We all know what happened.

My Quarter Pounder was designed by Kirby for a local dentist who had it built and raced at the worlds - the third time he did that.

Locals here raced at the Admirals Cup numerous times - architects and other regular people at that financial level.

Now? to race at the top level you have to be seriously rich. Even racing at the top of "local" fleets requires serious coin. A single full race sail for a 35' would cost more than I have in my entire boat.

Totally agree.  Ron H. and Doug P. (RIP) were friends, the rock stars and regular people all mingled together and the racing was great.  A good local sailor could get on a boat and race Grand Prix.  I don't know if the current generation will look back on these times as the golden years of racing.  I remember as you do massive fleets for Souther Straits, Swiftsure, PIYA regattas.  Was gratifying and lucky to sail internationally and realize that something in the water here enabled locals to compete with the best of the best.  Maybe a little nostalgic these days, heading to wash pollen off my boat and get ready for a local sailing adventure with some friends social distancing on our separate boats next week.  Trying to Reason with Hurricane Season!  And remember some wire luff and leached spinnakers on some of the bigger boats here but mostly they were dinosaurs that were at the bottom of the spinnaker stack, mostly discards that had outlived their useful life.

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4 hours ago, sledracr said:

Heh.  I raced on a Mull half-tonner called "knockers".  Owner was a SoCal plastic surgeon who had truly...uh... embraced his passions.

We had bright-pink kites and bloopers, all with big round red retrieval patches in the middle.

The stuffier yacht clubs reallllllly loved calling our name when we won their regattas <lol>

Did he by any chance change to a cruising boat later in life?

 

Twin Spinnakers.jpg

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45 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Did he by any chance change to a cruising boat later in life?

<lol> no. When IOR racing died in SoCal he bought an Etchells, and had a pretty good local record with it.  Boat called “PN”, for “pointy nipple”, IIRC

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6 hours ago, sledracr said:

Truly.

One of the guys I raced for owned a company that made injection-molded plastic parts.  "I only make a fraction of a penny on each one, but I make a million of 'em a day..."

We'd race somewhere (Cabo, PV, whatever) and at some point after arriving he'd walk into town with a messenger-bag full of stuff.  Drop off some plastic dental-picks and a business card at some dental offices; drop off some paint-stirrers and business cards at some hardware stores.  Etc.

And then write off the whole cost of the trip - including flights down for the delivery crew and back-half flights home for the race crew - as a "business trip"

Oh, and at the end of the boat's competitive life, part of the game was to donate the boat to a local college sailing program.  And write off "market value", which was usually about 5x what the boat would actually sell for on the market.

Good old days indeed.

I think the IOR was a unique nexus of a couple of things - boats (even semi-custom boats) were attainable, owners were relatively willing to spend their money, designers were thinking well outside the box, and - love it or hate it - the IOR made it so you could take your boat to pretty much any level and have good racing.   Add in that last-year's custom top-flight boat could often be purchased for (practically) pennies on the dollar and still be pretty competitive, good boats trickling down from grand-prix to club level fun kept the growth going for a good long time.

I doubt we'll ever see that combination of circumstances again.

It's happening on a small scale (and not reaching very far down the economic ladder) with the TP52 fleet.  Perhaps a few other classes are also having some success.  Cookson 12ms and 50s seem to go on forever.  So do J-120s.  I expect the J-121 and such will have a long, fun life.  What is needed is stability in construction and class rules, stability in the handicap rules and as a result the production of boats that are truly fun to sail and have a longevity in a second life.  Few fleets have stayed stable when placed under assault by trophy-hunters  Have any racing rules stayed predictable long enough to get critical mass?  

The small crew thing is not something that I see lasting.  Sure it's rewarding to accomplish, but in the end, it's more fun to share experiences with more people.  I've found it is pretty easy to get fairly large crews for a fun boat as long as expectations are set, misery is avoided and yelling rarely occurs.

 

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On 5/1/2020 at 8:06 AM, ROADKILL666 said:

How can you hate on the boats most of us grew up on?Sure the were slow and out of control down wind but dam they were fun.

Especially since everybody else was sailing them.

Misery loves an audience of like minded masochists!

- Stumbling  

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34 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

It's happening on a small scale (and not reaching very far down the economic ladder) with the TP52 fleet.  Perhaps a few other classes are also having some success.  Cookson 12ms and 50s seem to go on forever.  So do J-120s.  I expect the J-121 and such will have a long, fun life.  What is needed is stability in construction and class rules, stability in the handicap rules and as a result the production of boats that are truly fun to sail and have a longevity in a second life.  Few fleets have stayed stable when placed under assault by trophy-hunters  Have any racing rules stayed predictable long enough to get critical mass?  

The small crew thing is not something that I see lasting.  Sure it's rewarding to accomplish, but in the end, it's more fun to share experiences with more people.  I've found it is pretty easy to get fairly large crews for a fun boat as long as expectations are set, misery is avoided and yelling rarely occurs.

 

Yep, I’m trying to figure out who can’t go, more than who cannot....

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34 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

It's happening on a small scale (and not reaching very far down the economic ladder) with the TP52 fleet.  Perhaps a few other classes are also having some success.  Cookson 12ms and 50s seem to go on forever.  So do J-120s.  I expect the J-121 and such will have a long, fun life.  What is needed is stability in construction and class rules, stability in the handicap rules and as a result the production of boats that are truly fun to sail and have a longevity in a second life.  Few fleets have stayed stable when placed under assault by trophy-hunters  Have any racing rules stayed predictable long enough to get critical mass?  

The small crew thing is not something that I see lasting.  Sure it's rewarding to accomplish, but in the end, it's more fun to share experiences with more people.  I've found it is pretty easy to get fairly large crews for a fun boat as long as expectations are set, misery is avoided and yelling rarely occurs.

 

Yep, I’m trying to figure out who can’t go, more than who is available

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14 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I think it was a mix of all of that. It all combined just right. It is partly the boats. Think about the C&C 30 MK I. They sold hundreds of them and over the decades they have been used to win races, cruise, live aboard, and cross oceans. Think about the newest C&C 30. They race. That's it, they'll never have much of a use outside that, their OD class is pretty much dead, and certainly there are not hundreds of them :rolleyes:

It was also the peak of GA flying. I think it was the times more than anything. There are still plenty of those old leadmines around. If people wanted to race them in critical mass they would. Faster is funner. 

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The world has changed. People are far more sedentary. IT is really an alarming shift. Sailing is not sedentary. Well it is, but NOTHING like the petroleum pasttimes.

Look at PWC. Nobody buys actual jetskis. Too difficult and physical. People buy the larger things. The most physical work they do is launching. Then they go buzzing around for 10 minutes. Then they go to the island and party eat drink for 3 hours. Then they buzz around for 10 minutes and return to the launch ramp.

There are Millions of them and only thousands of us.

How many people actually ride their bicycles hard? Or actually run? Even walk? In my wealthy town, I recognize EVERY runner, cyclcist and of course skater. Even most of the walkers I recognize. There really aren't that many people actually doing something other than sitting all day.

In the 1990s we saw a massive shift. In 1992, the largest segment of the boat market was the PWC. LArger than all others combined. Do you know what hte largest segment is now? Party barges. That's right, the pontoon market. Designed for sitting.

Sailing is too much work.

Humans are transitioning to a feeding tube existence.

We will devolve legs. We don't need them. They use to much energy.

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On 4/30/2020 at 10:59 PM, JimBowie said:

God I hate looking at fckn IOR boats under spinnaker.

damn-you-must-be-high-14989379.png

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