PaulK

Train hits boat

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Make sure your hauler knows what he’s doing if you’re thinking of moving your boat long distance. There are risks & you should probably know the rules of the road. This Norwegian boat isn’t going to be launched again soon:

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/insolite/202005/01/01-5271704-rare-collision-entre-un-train-et-un-bateau.php?fbclid=IwAR1ihXcnc4e9WPHHSaS4Blnj6xiedR75fERtK1XLrj3N-5yRnvdcYDOow1k 

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6 minutes ago, PaulK said:

Make sure your hauler knows what he’s doing if you’re thinking of moving your boat long distance. There are risks & you should probably know the rules of the road. This Norwegian boat isn’t going to be launched again soon:

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/insolite/202005/01/01-5271704-rare-collision-entre-un-train-et-un-bateau.php?fbclid=IwAR1ihXcnc4e9WPHHSaS4Blnj6xiedR75fERtK1XLrj3N-5yRnvdcYDOow1k 

French understatement

"La mise à l’eau ne sera pas pour tout de suite… "

 

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OK, so I guess it falls upon me to write it  . . .  dramatic pause . .  

that will buff right out 

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The front fell off.

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1 hour ago, Varan said:

Orange is fast (BN joke)

What is the mythical (BN) you speak of?  From a long lost world a couple of light years away?

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May the 4th be with you......

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40 minutes ago, zenmasterfred said:

What is the mythical (BN) you speak of?  From a long lost world a couple of light years away?

bn.thumb.jpg.94a28ca4757e06edab1e3dc42292d8d8.jpg

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It was a high speed powerboat so the world is a little better place.

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I live in the Gorge, trains roll through here 24/7. They're 1.5+ miles long. It seems daily that a Canpotex line goes by with 4 or 5 engines up front, 2 engines in the middle and 1 engine at the end....

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It’s just a power boat.Only millions left 

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13 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

OK, so I guess it falls upon me to write it  . . .  dramatic pause . .  

that will buff right out 

You lie!

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11 hours ago, zenmasterfred said:

What is the mythical (BN) you speak of?  From a long lost world a couple of light years away?

 

Boat Nanny.  

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Boat Nanny was't the term in 1973 when the IBNA was founded at the Ross boatyard in Clearwater, but it is more appropriate in today's world. Marine Domestic or Maritime Valet were the preferred terms to use for our occupation when filling out customs forms in those days.   

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I liked the headline  "Rare Collision between a train and boat".  They won't be putting that back together.

 

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12 hours ago, Varan said:

bn.thumb.jpg.94a28ca4757e06edab1e3dc42292d8d8.jpg

It was the BN (Burlington Northern) then in the 90s they merged with the Santa Fe becoming the BNSF aka Bigger Now Still Fucked.

I prefer that over the vulgar Boat Nigger thing. Yes, it has been bowdlerized to Boat Nanny but still I'll leave BN to trains. Your mileage will vary.

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Up here in the PNW the political correct term is Yacht Domestic.  These days I am the YD on my boat (and house/yard too)

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1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

It was the BN (Burlington Northern) then in the 90s they merged with the Santa Fe becoming the BNSF aka Bigger Now Still Fucked.

When I was a kid I'd see the Burlington Northern rail cars and assumed it was a big city somewhere in the States.

Boy I had a rude awakening the first time I was in Burlington - talk about a town that could have been called "Pavement Narrows". :D

image.thumb.png.5168d1ec508a110b62658f0e7927c6ed.png

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21 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

When I was a kid I'd see the Burlington Northern rail cars and assumed it was a big city somewhere in the States.

Boy I had a rude awakening the first time I was in Burlington - talk about a town that could have been called "Pavement Narrows". :D

image.thumb.png.5168d1ec508a110b62658f0e7927c6ed.png

I'm not intimately familiar with Burlington Iowa but "Pavement Narrows" seems harsh.

Although that might explaine Burlington's "world famour" Snake Alley

800px-SnakeAlley_BurlingtonIA.jpg

But otherwise a reasonable city of 25,000

e88cc8f840651c8ac6e0196b9a2a7b46.jpg

 

 

 

 

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I believe Sloop is referring to Burlington Washington. The "Pavement Narrows" thing is harsh but funny because it is true. In fact it is affected by the tide.

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2 hours ago, zenmasterfred said:

Up here in the PNW the political correct term is Yacht Domestic.  These days I am the YD on my boat (and house/yard too)

YD is good. With your permission I'll borrow it.

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Pronounced "Yid"?

Not a lot better than the old definition of BN. :D

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Was Yacht Domesticating today and washed my boat within an inch of it's live.  Heading out for week in a couple of days and rendezvousing with some other pirates, will meet on beaches and social distance respectfully.  Spring is sprung here in God's Country as my grandfather used to say,   (He wasn't religious, just referring to the church of the sea and being afloat on the water that connects us to the world.  Had a few tukwillas to celebrate cinco de mayo tonight.

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How the hell could anyone be so stupid as to stop and park on RR tracks?

 

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Lowboy trailers sometimes get high centered on RR tracks. Hard to tell with that shot but that's the only thing that comes to mind.

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21 hours ago, Autonomous said:

I believe Sloop is referring to Burlington Washington. The "Pavement Narrows" thing is harsh but funny because it is true. In fact it is affected by the tide.

Fair enough but the Burlington in BNSF is Burlington Iowa. (Of course growing up on the east coast I assumed it was Burlington Vt.)

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I love howe calme evreybodey is, no yelleng, no screameng, juste a "wowe, didde you see thet?" sillence.                             :)

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On 5/4/2020 at 11:28 PM, Varan said:

Orange is fast (BN joke)

BN is what you see written in chalk or flower close to the end of the trail.  The half-minds then get down to the main purpose of the run, drinking beer afterwards.

https://harrier.net/presskit/shistory.html

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

Fair enough but the Burlington in BNSF is Burlington Iowa. (Of course growing up on the east coast I assumed it was Burlington Vt.)

Well that's a relief - I didn't think Burlington Washington warranted having a major railroad named after it. :D

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Well that's a relief - I didn't think Burlington Washington warranted having a major railroad named after it. :D

Burlington VT being a lovely town and in the North it seemed obvious that would be THE Burlington in Burlington Northern...

Of course If I'd been a more perceptive tyke I would have then wondered why  I tended to see BNSF trains west of Chicago...but then at that age it hadn't occurred to me that towns in upstate New York with names like Ithaca, Rome,  Syracuse, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam were not the first to bear those names.

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4 hours ago, KC375 said:

Of course If I'd been a more perceptive tyke I would have then wondered why  I tended to see BNSF trains west of Chicago...but then at that age it hadn't occurred to me that towns in upstate New York with names like Ithaca, Rome,  Syracuse, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam were not the first to bear those names.

Shhhhhuuussh KC.........Remember that for many: Ignorance is Bliss!

There's No need to make those remaining "perception challenged" types, who are (unfortunately) all too common, aware of their shortcomings.

It upsets their equlibrium and a whole bunch of other things........

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What I see is a 2 second clip of two guys standing on the left hand side of the truck, the guy in the light shirt is trying to make a phone call (presumably..... HELP) the barrier is already down. the images jumps which I'm assuming is a cut. (looks like the guy filming gets our of his car to continue.)

From 3-4 seconds the guy in the light shirt has heard the train coming and is rushing from the  left of screen toward the right,

then at 4 seconds BANG

Truck was definitely stuck, the driver (Im guessing) was desperately trying to tell someone to avoid the incident, which then happened.

 

 

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On 5/6/2020 at 11:09 AM, Autonomous said:

Lowboy trailers sometimes get high centered on RR tracks. Hard to tell with that shot but that's the only thing that comes to mind.

Not just lowboys, I got stuck on the tracks a long time ago pulling a 53ft trailer. The landing gear got hung up and lifted the drive wheels enough that I couldn't get any traction - and I couldn't unhook because of the pressure on the fifth wheel. People were starting to gather, it was an active track.

Fortunately another trucker backed his trailer against mine and pushed me over. Good times...

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2 hours ago, Thread Killer said:

Not just lowboys, I got stuck on the tracks a long time ago pulling a 53ft trailer. The landing gear got hung up and lifted the drive wheels enough that I couldn't get any traction - and I couldn't unhook because of the pressure on the fifth wheel. People were starting to gather, it was an active track.

Fortunately another trucker backed his trailer against mine and pushed me over. Good times...

Damn, you almost made the news.

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Look up on youtube, people ignoring crossings, there are some gruesome tragedies and the driver and engineer get to watch that up close. There is some serious PTSD...

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I made it 30 years on the RR without hitting a vehicle.  Many rails aren't so lucky, it's not unusual for someone to experience 3, 4 or even 5 hits and a number of fatalities.  Just like some mentally ill people commit suicide by cop others use a train.

We had an employee's son step in front of a train he thought his dad was on. Turned out the dad was on the next train.

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On 5/6/2020 at 12:21 PM, KC375 said:

Burlington VT being a lovely town and in the North it seemed obvious that would be THE Burlington in Burlington Northern...

Of course If I'd been a more perceptive tyke I would have then wondered why  I tended to see BNSF trains west of Chicago...but then at that age it hadn't occurred to me that towns in upstate New York with names like Ithaca, Rome,  Syracuse, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam were not the first to bear those names.

Or New York for that matter. :)

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11 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Or New York for that matter. :)

No, im pretty sure  New York was the first city to be called New York

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On 5/5/2020 at 2:27 PM, Autonomous said:

I believe Sloop is referring to Burlington Washington. The "Pavement Narrows" thing is harsh but funny because it is true. In fact it is affected by the tide.

Went through there about 5 yrs ago, From what I remember the moniker makes sense...  

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1 hour ago, JohnMB said:

No, im pretty sure  New York was the first city to be called New York

I think "New York" is an original, named after the Duke of York after the Netherlands ceded New Amsterdam to the English.

 If you drop the "New" well then you get into the very common (at least frequent but some would also say common) "York" which is popular both due to it's geographic antecedents and it's prominence arising from the "House of York".

Once you’ve dropped the “new” part you find York all over the place in the UK and the new world including the second capital of upper Canada, now known as Toronto.

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On 5/6/2020 at 3:21 PM, KC375 said:

Burlington VT being a lovely town and in the North it seemed obvious that would be THE Burlington in Burlington Northern...

Of course If I'd been a more perceptive tyke I would have then wondered why  I tended to see BNSF trains west of Chicago...but then at that age it hadn't occurred to me that towns in upstate New York with names like Ithaca, Rome,  Syracuse, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam were not the first to bear those names.

I love all the names.

I can drive from Moscow to Berlin in 45 minutes.

(VT)

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3 hours ago, JohnMB said:

No, im pretty sure  New York was the first city to be called New York

Along with New Amsterdam, New Haven, New Brunswick, New Bedford, New Jersey, New Hampshire and, of course, New England.  The flame of creativity did not burn brightly among the Puritans.  

I had a friend who had her Toyota 1/4 ton pick-up run over by a train when it died on the tracks.  She gave up turning the key and pounding the steering wheel only a few moments sooner than absolutely necessary.  The pick-up looked about like that boat. but apparently way more sparks were generated in the demolition process.

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My dad taught us how to drive, which included a few atypical lessons plans. This was  back in the days when cars had less reliable, fuel, air and spark delivery so they stalled more often, especially in winter. But the good news was a standard was standard which was good if you had no charge but could get rolling. Starting without the starting motor was normal back then.

We had to cross a double set of tracks to get to our house so my dad also included a lesson on what to do when you had charge but no ignition and absolutely need a car length or two.

We learned the value of using first gear and the starting motor.

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New Milford, New Albany, New Philadelphia, Newtown, New Rochelle, New Orleans, Newburg,

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15 minutes ago, KC375 said:

We learned the value of using first gear and the starting motor.

Yep -- Dad instilled that one on my brother and me, too.

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4 hours ago, KC375 said:

I think "New York" is an original, named after the Duke of York after the Netherlands ceded New Amsterdam to the English.

 If you drop the "New" well then you get into the very common (at least frequent but some would also say common) "York" which is popular both due to it's geographic antecedents and it's prominence arising from the "House of York".

Once you’ve dropped the “new” part you find York all over the place in the UK and the new world including the second capital of upper Canada, now known as Toronto.

You have it backwards - the Duke and the House were named after the place, not the other way around - York, England.

English dukes take their name from where their lands are (generally) - Chuck is the Duke of Cornwall for example because he has a big spread there.

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30 minutes ago, KC375 said:

My dad taught us how to drive, which included a few atypical lessons plans. This was  back in the days when cars had less reliable, fuel, air and spark delivery so they stalled more often, especially in winter. But the good news was a standard was standard which was good if you had no charge but could get rolling. Starting without the starting motor was normal back then.

We had to cross a double set of tracks to get to our house so my dad also included a lesson on what to do when you had charge but no ignition and absolutely need a car length or two.

 

We learned the value of using first gear and the starting motor.

 

I had a car that I always parked on a hill, because the starter solenoid was sticky, so 50:50 at best. Gentle roll downhill got it started. It took a few weeks to find a pull at a local scrappy and get it replaced..... original quote was more than the value of the car :)

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Just now, SloopJonB said:

You have it backwards - the Duke and the House were named after the place, not the other way around - York, England.

English dukes take their name from where their lands are (generally) - Chuck is the Duke of Cornwall for example because he has a big spread there.

I didn't say the Duke or House of York gave their name to York. I understand they got their name from the place (the same way the Prince of Wales did not give his name to Wales).

I did observe that many places got their name from either York the place or from York the Nobles and yes the Duke got his name from the place but the place was not the reason New York got its name. Had the Duke of York been the Duke of Cumerbund then NYC would now be New Cumerbund.

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4 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

You have it backwards - the Duke and the House were named after the place, not the other way around - York, England.

English dukes take their name from where their lands are (generally) - Chuck is the Duke of Cornwall for example because he has a big spread there.

Agreed, York was derived from the Scandinavian Jorvik, and the house of York and later Dukes of York derived their name from the City.

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1 minute ago, KC375 said:

I didn't say the Duke or House of York gave their name to York. I understand they got their name from the place (the same way the Prince of Wales did not give his name to Wales).

I did observe that many places got their name from either York the place or from York the Nobles and yes the Duke got his name from the place but the place was not the reason New York got its name. Had the Duke of York been the Duke of Cumerbund then NYC would now be New Cumerbund.

True, but it makes more sense that New York was named after the City than named after the duke.

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21 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

I had a car that I always parked on a hill, because the started solenoid was sticky, so 50:50 at best. Gentle roll downhill got it started. It took a few weeks to find a pull at a local scrappy and get it replaces..... original quote was more than the value of the car :)

I was schooled in parking by the joy of Lucas electrics. Even now I find myself instinctively looking for at least a gentle incline to park on with a clear roll way - I the street I park on the up slope side of driveway so as not to be blocked in. I still get a slight sense of fear and foreboding if I notice I've parked in a dreaded valley. (My kids think I'm nuts)

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9 minutes ago, KC375 said:

I was schooled in parking by the joy of Lucas electrics. Even now I find myself instinctively looking for at least a gentle incline to park on with a clear role way - I the street I park on the up slope side of driveway so as not to be blocked in. I still get a slight sense of fear and foreboding if I notice I've parked in a dreaded valley. (My kids think I'm nuts)

Ever since alternators took over from generators bump starting has been an historical artifact. :D

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4 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

True, but it makes more sense that New York was named after the City than named after the duke.

But the history books (or at least the not overly reliable on line sources) say it was the Duke. "renamed New York after King Charles II of England granted the lands to his brother, the Duke of York."

New York was named after the English Duke of York and Albany (and the brother of England's King Charles II) in 1664 when the region called New Amsterdam was taken from the Dutch.

 

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

Ever since alternators took over, bump starting has been an historical artifact. :D

For sure alternators helped but as poor young man I often put off replacing the battery, rebuilding the starter, or finding the power leak for weeks or months until I could aford both the car maintenance and beer fund. If only enough $...well priorities...as a rugby player I could always get a gang to give a push if I'd bought a round at the piss up.

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4 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Ever since alternators took over, bump starting has been an historical artifact. :D

And more definitively electronic fuel injection and ignition have ended bump starting. The first time I left the lights on in my Miata I was completely relaxed as by training I had parked on a hill...

Fortunately I had plan B in the form of jumper cables.

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12 minutes ago, KC375 said:

First quote doesn't add anything to the discussion, it speaks to timing not the specific reasoning, (and it makes more sense to name the City after the Ducal Seat than after the Duke_

Second quote..... apply occams razor, 

If you call a city New X,  then X should  refer to a New version of something, was new york city a New Person, a new Duke or a New City? 

If you named it after the Duke it would have been called York's City or similar (e.g. Schitt's Creek named after some Schitt or other)

 

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23 minutes ago, KC375 said:

For sure alternators helped but as poor young man I often put off replacing the battery, rebuilding the starter, or finding the power leak for weeks or months until I could aford both the car maintenance and beer fund. If only enough $...well priorities...as a rugby player I could always get a gang to give a push if I'd bought a round at the piss up.

Not about that they helped the charging reliability (they did) but the fact that you can't bump start a car so equipped if the battery is flat - no way to energize the field coils so no juice no matter how many rugby players you shanghai.

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32 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Not about that they helped the charging reliability (they did) but the fact that you can't bump start a car so equipped if the battery is flat - no way to energize the field coils so no juice no matter how many rugby players you shanghai.

I'm confused, which equipment stops you bump starting?

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Alternators - they require some electricity to energize the field coils so they can start producing juice. If the battery is stone dead you're SOL.

Generators just have to spin.

Plus clutches are almost a thing of the past too.

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Alternators - they require some electricity to energize the field coils so they can start producing juice. If the battery is stone dead you're SOL.

Generators just have to spin.

Plus clutches are almost a thing of the past too.

If you totally flatten the battery maybe, but 99% of the time you are just too flat to turn it over, rather than too flat to get anything to happen.

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On 5/7/2020 at 6:40 PM, Autonomous said:

Damn, you almost made the news.

Yeah, that was a definite possibility. 

There was a detail I left out. Normally in that situation I would have engaged the inter-axle diff lock, making both drive axles turn at least one set of duals. But, a week or so earlier the inter-axle drive shaft had fall off and tumbled down a lonely desert hi way on the other side of the country. 

When the trailer got high centered it lifted and took a bunch of weight off the drive wheels. The front set of drive wheels, being further down the slope were barely touching the pavement, the rear drives were still in good contact - but they had no drive shaft to turn them.

It is another good example of how nearly all accidents are made up of small errors. In this case, only a good samaritan with a large vehicle prevented the accident from occurring.

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I 'spose you could have let air out of the rear drivers but fortunately it didn't come to that.

So, here's how you kill the inter-axle driveshaft. This technique requires (1) a front axle brake kill switch or an old truck with no front brakes (2) no trailer or disable the trailer brakes.  If you are stuck and have just two sets of duals spinning apply a bit of brake. This affects the spinning wheels more than the stationary ones. sometimes it gets you unstuck, sometimes especially with new drivers it kills the little driveline.

You can do the same thing with rear wheel drive vehicles and a bit of parking brake.

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1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

I 'spose you could have let air out of the rear drivers but fortunately it didn't come to that.

So, here's how you kill the inter-axle driveshaft. This technique requires (1) a front axle brake kill switch or an old truck with no front brakes (2) no trailer or disable the trailer brakes.  If you are stuck and have just two sets of duals spinning apply a bit of brake. This affects the spinning wheels more than the stationary ones. sometimes it gets you unstuck, sometimes especially with new drivers it kills the little driveline.

You can do the same thing with rear wheel drive vehicles and a bit of parking brake.

Can you explain the physics / mechanics of why applying a bit of parking brake would transfer drive from the spinning wheel to the non spinning wheel of a rear wheel drive car. I've never pulled a part a differential so I'm sure I'm missing something.

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An open (no traction adder) differential sends all the power to the side with no resistance (traction). The brakes affect the spinning wheel more than the non-spinning wheel. This forces some torque over to the non spinning wheel(s). Modern traction control systems can add braking to just the spinning wheel.

Google can explain how a differential works better than I can. They are actually pretty clever.

On the rear wheel drive car if you apply the service brakes the front wheels will have braking which is not helpful, to say the least. The parking brake just affects the drive axle. 

These same principles can cause problems parked on a slippery hill if the driver just puts the vehicle in park and is too lazy or ignorant to apply the parking brake.

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3 hours ago, Autonomous said:

An open (no traction adder) differential sends all the power to the side with no resistance (traction). The brakes affect the spinning wheel more than the non-spinning wheel. This forces some torque over to the non spinning wheel(s). Modern traction control systems can add braking to just the spinning wheel.

Google can explain how a differential works better than I can. They are actually pretty clever.

On the rear wheel drive car if you apply the service brakes the front wheels will have braking which is not helpful, to say the least. The parking brake just affects the drive axle. 

These same principles can cause problems parked on a slippery hill if the driver just puts the vehicle in park and is too lazy or ignorant to apply the parking brake.

I’m always keen to learn more about driving techniques.

I’ve learned on the race track that others are much more skilled than I but I do enjoy understanding what they are executing better than I.

So I remain confused on two levels – the comment about the application of the brake to the drive axel / driven wheels and the preferential braking on the turning wheel not the stationary wheel.

In the cars I’m familiar with the handbrake/emergency brake does not apply to the drive axle. In all the cars I’m familiar with it applies to the rear  brakes using a cable arrangement rather than the main hydraulics. It is particularly relevant that it not apply to the drive axle or driven wheels in a front wheel drive. Otherwise I couldn’t have done those handbrake turns I spent so much time practicing in my mini 1275. Rally drivers use handbrake turns in both front and rear wheel drive vehicles but they are particularly important in front wheel drives where you have fewer ways to play the rear wheels.

Again I can only speak of the cars I’m familiar with but they are designed to work by applying equal pressure to both rear brakes. ...at least in theory/when well maintained ...in my MG the compensator mechanism would regularly gum up resulting in stronger or only braking on the rear driver's side but when properly functioning it provided pretty equal load.  From physics 105 (and high school physics) I seem to recall that the coefficient of sliding friction is lower than static friction. Assuming equal brake pressure the braking would actually have a greater affect on the stationary wheel rather than the spinning wheel.

I must be missing something as that would seem the opposite of what you describe.

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I suspect this a case where theory and empirical evidence clash.

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2 hours ago, KC375 said:

I’m always keen to learn more about driving techniques.

 

I’ve learned on the race track that others are much more skilled than I but I do enjoy understanding what they are executing better than I.

 

So I remain confused on two levels – the comment about the application of the brake to the drive axel / driven wheels and the preferential braking on the turning wheel not the stationary wheel.

 

In the cars I’m familiar with the handbrake/emergency brake does not apply to the drive axle. In all the cars I’m familiar with it applies to the rear  brakes using a cable arrangement rather than the main hydraulics. It is particularly relevant that it not apply to the drive axle or driven wheels in a front wheel drive. Otherwise I couldn’t have done those handbrake turns I spent so much time practicing in my mini 1275. Rally drivers use handbrake turns in both front and rear wheel drive vehicles but they are particularly important in front wheel drives where you have fewer ways to play the rear wheels.

 

Again I can only speak of the cars I’m familiar with but they are designed to work by applying equal pressure to both rear brakes. ...at least in theory/when well maintained ...in my MG the compensator mechanism would regularly gum up resulting in stronger or only braking on the rear driver's side but when properly functioning it provided pretty equal load.  From physics 105 (and high school physics) I seem to recall that the coefficient of sliding friction is lower than static friction. Assuming equal brake pressure the braking would actually have a greater affect on the stationary wheel rather than the spinning wheel.

 

I must be missing something as that would seem the opposite of what you describe.

 

Just buy an Audi with flappy paddle, tiptronic tranny and the best all wheel drive system ever! 

The clutch is dead!

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3 hours ago, Liquid said:

Just buy an Audi with flappy paddle, tiptronic tranny and the best all wheel drive system ever! 

The clutch is dead!

Audis are shit to drive.  That's bad enough in itself but they are well engineered... meaning that they are designed to be shit to drive.

 That makes driving one depressing, the opposite to a "sports car" where driving it is fun and improves your mood.

Cheers,

               W.

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Hi,

Quote

In the cars I’m familiar with the handbrake/emergency brake does not apply to the drive axle. In all the cars I’m familiar with it applies to the rear  brakes using a cable arrangement rather than the main hydraulics. It is particularly relevant that it not apply to the drive axle or driven wheels in a front wheel drive.

..but we're talking specifically about "traditional" RWD cars here.

Quote

Again I can only speak of the cars I’m familiar with but they are designed to work by applying equal pressure to both rear brakes. ... From physics 105 (and high school physics) I seem to recall that the coefficient of sliding friction is lower than static friction. Assuming equal brake pressure the braking would actually have a greater affect on the stationary wheel rather than the spinning wheel.

With an open diff and only one wheel stopped, all the engine does is spin the loose one. With handbrake applied, the engine is working against resistance on both wheels, so the diff sends torque to both wheels to overcome the drag, rotating them against the brakes... since your stuck wheel is now rotating it may be able to overcome the obstacle that's blocking it, freeing the car. 

 That's how I see it, anyway... I've not used this technique, in fact I don't think I've owned a car with this layout; my first four had the handbrake on the front wheels, the next four were rear engined and the more recent ones have either been FWD or 4WD...

Cheers,

               W.

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7 hours ago, Liquid said:

Just buy an Audi with flappy paddle, tiptronic tranny and the best all wheel drive system ever! 

The clutch is dead!

I drive an S4 cab. However it is one of the early tiptronic's so the lag between batting the paddle and something actually happening is irritatingly slow - should have gone manual. I believe it was a year or two later that they got tiptronic crisp enough to compete with the manual.

I try to take anything I regularly drive for a track day or two. (I did get some funny looks getting into the Sienna wearing a helmet and driving shoes). I like to find the limits and learn to manage them when the cost of tuition is nothing more than some grass in the undercarriage and embarrassment in the paddock.

"Mastering" the Audi cost me two sets of rotors, bunch of pads and a few sets of tires. My conclusion, the "quatro" is fantastic for a ski car and not quite dialed in driving - kind of GT driving. Pushed to the limits or on a sunny dry day - give me rear wheel drive. The audi just tried to make the front tires do too much of the work especially exiting corners.

So for daily driver I'd definitly consider the S4 again. If I was twenty years younger I'd look at the M3 or others in that vein.

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6 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

....With handbrake applied, the engine is working against resistance on both wheels, so the diff sends torque to both wheels to overcome the drag, rotating them against the brakes... since your stuck wheel is now rotating it may be able to overcome the obstacle that's blocking it, freeing the car. 
...

That seems a more plausible explanation...as you describe it, it's not that the handbrake works more on the spinning wheel. Rather the handbrake adds resistance to both thus lowering the proportionate difference in resistance between the wheels so the differential sees the wheels as more "equal" thus turning both.

Which cars did you have with handbrake activating the front wheels?

I misspoke (mistyped?) when I wrote that all the front wheel drive cars I knew had the handbrake operate the rear brakes. I think my brother's Saab (99?) had the emergency brake on the front - worked better at braking but if it worked too well it had a interesting impact on steering. I remember because he managed to (sometimes) pull off handbrake turns by applying the foot brake while in gear and also maintaining some throttle to keep the front wheels turning and engine from stalling.

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50 minutes ago, KC375 said:

...Which cars did you have with handbrake activating the front wheels?

:-)   Small Citroens. Two Ami-8s and two Dyanes. Same setup (same chassis) as a 2CV.  Rusted like tissue paper in a shower but mechanically very simple- no radiator, waterpump, heater core, head-gaskets, distributor, fan belt... Not much to go wrong at all. Had a puncture in one once and discovered I didn't have a jack, so used a bit of timber from the roadside to lever up the wheel enough to change it :-).

Cheers,

                W.

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7 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

:-)   Small Citroens. Two Ami-8s and two Dyanes. Same setup (same chassis) as a 2CV.  Rusted like tissue paper in a shower but mechanically very simple- no radiator, waterpump, heater core, head-gaskets, distributor, fan belt... Not much to go wrong at all. Had a puncture in one once and discovered I didn't have a jack, so used a bit of timber from the roadside to lever up the wheel enough to change it :-).

Cheers,

                W.

Well then I must have "known" more with that set up...but too young to know better. My dad had 2 2CVs among the first in North America - he went through a midlife crisis that saw him move from a 57 Dodge Custom Royale and a Packard Clipper to 2CVs and then a more upmarket R4 - that certainly set him apart back then. (maybe safer than a motorcycle and less disruptive than a mistress)

That was in the day when major highways had minimum 60 mph which was pretty much the maximum for the 2CV unassisted but slipstreaming a tractor trailer would move things right along. Come snow and ice my dad relished zipping around all the big engined rear wheel drives fishtailing their way up hills or often not getting up hills while he weaved by with his studded front wheel drive tires that looked more like they belonged on a motorcycle...As you point out, not heavy, so if you did slide into a ditch or snowbank just round up a few guys and manhandle it back onto the road. I miss those cars but they were not built for salted roads, sort of dissolved around you in a few years, once the slush started splashing inside the car the days were counting down fast.

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That was one strange MLC your dad had. :D

With most people it works the other way.

From this image.png.60777d24121bfd7e923582a0e8b5d7c2.png

To this

????? image.png.4806f4e59062392fce2c13c5dd287195.png

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22 hours ago, Autonomous said:

I 'spose you could have let air out of the rear drivers but fortunately it didn't come to that.

So, here's how you kill the inter-axle driveshaft. This technique requires (1) a front axle brake kill switch or an old truck with no front brakes (2) no trailer or disable the trailer brakes.  If you are stuck and have just two sets of duals spinning apply a bit of brake. This affects the spinning wheels more than the stationary ones. sometimes it gets you unstuck, sometimes especially with new drivers it kills the little driveline.

You can do the same thing with rear wheel drive vehicles and a bit of parking brake.

I don't know if you have ever let the air out of semi-truck tires but I can tell you that it takes quite a while. I tried that once when a co-driver got a trailer wedged underneath a bridge, it actually was not her fault BTW, it was clearly marked 13'-6". I spent an hour or so letting air out and it made no discernible difference. Maybe if the trailer were loaded it would have been more productive but not when there is not much weight on the tires.

However,  I don't think it would have helped, when stuck on the tracks the truck was being suspended by the trailer. In fact, I think it would have made it worse because of the way the suspension transfers weight from one axle to the other via a rocker. Deflating the rear drive axle would have lowered it and raised the front drive axle even further. 

Using brakes to transfer power to the non spinning wheel of an open diff in this situation would not have been possible. Disconnecting the trailer brakes would be easy but there isn't a way to operate the drive axle brakes without also applying the steer axle brakes.

The last company I drove for always ordered their tractors with lockers on both axles, in addition to the inter-axle diff lock. A desirable option for resale to Alaskan companies. Lockers like that would have solved my problem.

 

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

That was one strange MLC your dad had. :D

....

 Strange and my dad ...words that belong together. Now that I'm older I prefer eccentric to strange. He grew up spoiled rich but during his communist phase gave most of it away, a bit of an impractical academic (Neurologist at famous teaching hospital) having spent many summers on the farm he had a weird practical angle too - don't think there was anyone else in his department who could milk a cow, re-handle an ax, or gap the points on a Packard. Now that I'm older I can appreciate the wisdom I didn't recognize when he was around. Wish I could tell him that.

As to MLC, well you give him too much credit for style. The Packard was a pretty cool car but as 8 seater was pretty practical - household of 12 with never less than 2 pets often more. As to the Dodge Custom Royale (looking at the photos I was wrong it was a 56 not a 57) it had a pushbutton automatic with a honking big v8 that could really haul ass. He inherited it from his mom, unfortunately a 4 door sedan in an unusual fuchsia and white two tone.

In the image below replace the dark colour with white and it would be close. (not really what you wanted dropping you off at an all boys school).

 

61141_Front_3-4_Web.jpg

Both the 2CVs were drab army green.

OIP.PNrl12FYw-Q_3m3hrSwxzQHaE8?pid=Api&r

 

I think the MLC was partly about showing his conspicuously consuming colleagues how much more noble he was in his parsimony. That he could then make fools of them on slippery roads made it all the sweeter. There was something about eight inches of snow or freezing rain that brought out the boy racer in him as he'd weave his front wheel drive two cylinder toy car through stuck behemoths.

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It is true that strangely enough, with its front wheel drive, super narrow wheels and light weight, the 2CV is virtually unstoppable in the snow...

By the way, the Renault R4 also has parking brake on the front wheel, if I remember well.

The 2CV gear box is an oddity, even compared to other French cars!!!

The lever is on the dash board and you have to twist and push or pull to change gear...

The reverse gear is: pushing forward with lever twisted towards the driver...

The first gear is aligned with the reverse, not with second gear... You usually make the mistake only once; wanting to shift from first to second and actually (trying to) shift from first to reverse is something you do not forget...

First gear is not synchronized; you can shift to first ONLY when at a full stop.

AR stands for Arrière (reverse)

S stands for Surmultiplié (over drive... or 4th)

image.thumb.png.6d40f58528aae89f54222384dd9d4585.png

 

 

 

Start video at 2:00 to see the gear shifting.

 

 

I loved my wife's 2CV; sweetly weird...

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Laurent said:

It is true that strangely enough, with its front wheel drive, super narrow wheels and light weight, the 2CV is virtually unstoppable in the snow...

By the way, the Renault R4 also has parking brake on the front wheel, if I remember well.

The 2CV gear box is an oddity, even compared to other French cars!!!

The lever is on the dash board and you have to twist and push or pull to change gear...

The reverse gear is: pushing forward with lever twisted towards the driver...

The first gear is aligned with the reverse, not with second gear... You usually make the mistake only once; wanting to shift from first to second and actually (trying to) shift from first to reverse is something you do not forget...

First gear is not synchronized; you can shift to first ONLY when at a full stop.

AR stands for Arrière (reverse)

S stands for Surmultiplié (over drive... or 4th)

 

Similar weird shift on the R5 (my first car)

It made perfect sense, the engine  (on the R5 at least) was based of a RWD engine with the gearbox next to the driver. For the R5 as far as I could tell, they just took the same engine/gearbox design turned it back to front and somehow jammed a diff between the engine and gearbox to drive the front wheels........... then tried to figure out how to connect the gear stick to something the driver could use. So the dashboard lever was just a rod which connected to the "original" gear stick.

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3 hours ago, Thread Killer said:

I don't know if you have ever let the air out of semi-truck tires but I can tell you that it takes quite a while. I tried that once when a co-driver got a trailer wedged underneath a bridge, it actually was not her fault BTW, it was clearly marked 13'-6". I spent an hour or so letting air out and it made no discernible difference. Maybe if the trailer were loaded it would have been more productive but not when there is not much weight on the tires.

However,  I don't think it would have helped, when stuck on the tracks the truck was being suspended by the trailer. In fact, I think it would have made it worse because of the way the suspension transfers weight from one axle to the other via a rocker. Deflating the rear drive axle would have lowered it and raised the front drive axle even further. 

Using brakes to transfer power to the non spinning wheel of an open diff in this situation would not have been possible. Disconnecting the trailer brakes would be easy but there isn't a way to operate the drive axle brakes without also applying the steer axle brakes.

The last company I drove for always ordered their tractors with lockers on both axles, in addition to the inter-axle diff lock. A desirable option for resale to Alaskan companies. Lockers like that would have solved my problem.

 

There is a lot of air in those tires for sure. To deflate them without needing a Mayan calendar a valve stem tool would be helpful.

I wasn't suggesting the old time brake trick would help your situation, just making conversation. I got out of truck driving 30 years ago, before lockers became somewhat common.

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2 hours ago, Laurent said:

 

The 2CV gear box is an oddity, even compared to other French cars!!!

The lever is on the dash board and you have to twist and push or pull to change gear...

First gear is not synchronized; you can shift to first ONLY when at a full stop.


 

I'd gift someone a bottle of good Italian wine to see them double clutch that thing into 1st while on the move.

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