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climenuts

New Ocean Racing Idea

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I like foiling IMOCAs and Carbon Fiber Sleds as much as the next guy but how about an Ocean Race geared towards somewhat more practical sailing tech?

Here's what I'm thinking:

Ocean Race series where entrants must carry a standard 20ft ISO shipping container from destination to destination with random contents & weights consistent across competitors. Weight can be kept below a reasonable limit as the usual 31T is probably too much. Boats must be designed to be stable across all loading conditions, contents must be delivered intact, and containers must be unloaded by a standard gantry crane while afloat by removing one of the stays. The boats can't use the container as part of their structure (e.g. must be seaworthy without the container).

Scoring can be the same as the Volvo.

I think this would be a good way to advance sailing tech in a way that's more commercially viable. Delivering containers with non-time sensitive contents between ports which don't typically have a lot of traffic could be a green solution to commercial shipping.

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What kind of customer would ship freight in the most boring slow boat PR stunt?

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

What kind of customer would ship freight in the most boring slow boat PR stunt?

But at least it’d also be the most expensive way possible, so it’s got that going for it. 

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5 minutes ago, Monkey said:

But at least it’d also be the most expensive way possible, so it’s got that going for it. 

The incredible logistics behind the standard shipping container has connected the world in the most amazing way. 

if we’re gonna make sail a thing with slow boat racing, might as well ditch the container and store the cargo down below because it certainly doesn’t need the quick logistics handling by the dock and onto freight cars or trucks. 

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

What kind of customer would ship freight in the most boring slow boat PR stunt?

Companies who need to reduce their CO2 emissions for marketing reasons.

7 minutes ago, Monkey said:

But at least it’d also be the most expensive way possible, so it’s got that going for it. 

Not if they find sponsorship to pay for the new tech!

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Saudi oil? The next Oman/Abu Dhabi/DF sail?

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29 minutes ago, Miffy said:

The incredible logistics behind the standard shipping container has connected the world in the most amazing way. 

if we’re gonna make sail a thing with slow boat racing, might as well ditch the container and store the cargo down below because it certainly doesn’t need the quick logistics handling by the dock and onto freight cars or trucks. 

It's not just the handling logistics - there is greatly increased security of the cargo as well.

The standardized container was a brilliant idea that has truly changed the world.

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2 hours ago, climenuts said:

I like foiling IMOCAs and Carbon Fiber Sleds as much as the next guy but how about an Ocean Race geared towards somewhat more practical sailing tech?

Here's what I'm thinking:

Ocean Race series where entrants must carry a standard 20ft ISO shipping container from destination to destination with random contents & weights consistent across competitors. Weight can be kept below a reasonable limit as the usual 31T is probably too much. Boats must be designed to be stable across all loading conditions, contents must be delivered intact, and containers must be unloaded by a standard gantry crane while afloat by removing one of the stays. The boats can't use the container as part of their structure (e.g. must be seaworthy without the container).

Scoring can be the same as the Volvo.

I think this would be a good way to advance sailing tech in a way that's more commercially viable. Delivering containers with non-time sensitive contents between ports which don't typically have a lot of traffic could be a green solution to commercial shipping.

You now have the trophy for dumbest thing posted on this forum this year.

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Companies who need to reduce their CO2 emissions for marketing reasons.

Not if they find sponsorship to pay for the new tech!

Oh great. Every time I order something off Amazon, I’ll wait for the shipper to seek sponsorship. 

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

It's not just the handling logistics - there is greatly increased security of the cargo as well.

The standardized container was a brilliant idea that has truly changed the world.

They were hated by the wharfies in Kiwi as it stopped the blatant pilfering that went on. Very strong union, so at the beginning you could bring a container in or out, but it was packed/unpacked in a closed compound by the wharfies dockside. The shit you could get if you had a contact on the docks was incredible.

Booze was a good one. Hold a box of rum over a bucket and smash all the bottles. Put the box back on the pallet.

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So how about just building the boat around the container and then load it with whatever - have a gangplank and stevedores, a crane a big net to lower the cargo. Since getting the container on and off a sailboat will be impeded by some minor things like the mast, shrouds, backstay that's going to be tricky. So, if we can't get past those challenges then how about  waterwings and just tow it? Then the sponsors could have their adverts visible the entire time.

Think of the possibilities! I could think of some more but time for a drink or 2.   Oh wait - make them watertight and have the boat be a big catamaran frame that drops down onto 2 that serve as the amas.  Yeah, that's the ticket. Wind Wind. Off to make a drink and perfect my silly walks. 

 

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Cargo ship races were a big deal back in the day because there was cash involved in having the first load of tea landed in England for the season or whatever. This idea seems a non-starter with cheap fuel and cargo ships sitting idle.

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That's quite funny but Gabart in the last Tip & Shaft says that the offshore racing industry has a role to play in the the decarboning of maritime transport : https://mailchi.mp/tipandshaft/n211franois-gabart-la-course-au-large-joue-un-vrai-rle-dans-notre-socit?e=2e91b675c1

Google translate should give you the gist of it.

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22 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

You now have the trophy for dumbest thing posted on this forum this year.

really,  given how 2020 is going,  it's a bit early to pull that trigger...

 

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Sure - let us pick the low hanging fruit of phasing out bunker B/C and introducing emission enforcement for even flag of convenience before patting ourselves on the back for adding sail area to container ships. 
 

Gabart is a really good guy but he’s spent his entire life away from the dirty depths of the global economy. 

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Using heavy fuels isn't very nice - but the new IMO 2020 rules on sulphur limits has made an immediate difference. Removing the SOx (low sulphur fuels or using scrubbers) will have a big effect for the world.

I found a paper comparing distillate fuels (sort of like #2 diesel is Canada/US) to residual fuels (Bunker fuels). Not totally surprising but distillate fuels have very slightly HIGHER CO2 emissions - if you include refining the different fuels.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3155/1047-3289.58.4.538

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The cost of shipping is at historic lows and we’ve only made it cheaper to export goods from far away places at the cost of emissions that don’t have to be so darn cheap.

all it would take is for US/ANZAC/EU to set regs re mandatory emission compliance from departure to destination. 
 

as it stands today, many carriers just pickup the low sulfur diesel for when they’re in US operations- turn the valve back to Bunker B/C. 

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The North American Emissions area requires 0.1% sulphur fuel and has done so since about 2015. Before that it 1.0%

The new 2020 IMO limit is 0.5% which is a huge improvement from the previous 3.5%. It would not surprise me if there was an IMO 2030 which would reduce it further to 0.1%.

I'm not sure the US / EU etc can mandate the fuel to be used for foreign flag vessels trading in international waters. That's why we have organizations like the IMO whose regulations can affect changes on a world wide basis.

The IMO Energy Efficiency Design Index might have greater effects on overall CO2 reduction but since I don't design big ships I don't know well it works in practice (basically newer big ships have to be at least as good as a standard index curve based on ship tonnage and you have to prove it via model tests or sea trials). Sort of like the US EPA mandating fuel economy.

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19 minutes ago, Zonker said:

The North American Emissions area requires 0.1% sulphur fuel and has done so since about 2015. Before that it 1.0%

The new 2020 IMO limit is 0.5% which is a huge improvement from the previous 3.5%. It would not surprise me if there was an IMO 2030 which would reduce it further to 0.1%.

I'm not sure the US / EU etc can mandate the fuel to be used for foreign flag vessels trading in international waters. That's why we have organizations like the IMO whose regulations can affect changes on a world wide basis.

 The IMO Energy Efficiency Design Index might have greater effects on overall CO2 reduction but since I don't design big ships I don't know well it works in practice (basically newer big ships have to be at least as good as a standard index curve based on ship tonnage and you have to prove it via model tests or sea trials). Sort of like the US EPA mandating fuel economy.

It’ll have to be done from a compliance inspection. 
 

if you want to bulk carry or haul containers into US/EU, your vessel must comply with emissions the moment it enters the territorial waters - also we require you not to have any bunker B/C in a sep tank (subject to random fuel sampling). 
 

since only illicit DPRK-China coal are the only folks making dubious transfers of payload at sea?

it’ll take care of most of the unnecessary pollution- (I’m limiting it to US-EU mainly because for the cost of goods, and shipping- we are the worst exploiters) 

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6 hours ago, Miffy said:

if you want to bulk carry or haul containers into US/EU, your vessel must comply with emissions the moment it enters the territorial waters

You already have to.

There are special emissions area for the EU/US and Canada/Baltic and North Sea. All require fuel with less than the IMO limit for sulphur. The Jan 2020 change reduced the SOx emissions by ~77%.  (3.5% -> 0.5%). CO2 emissions don't change with fuel type. If you're not involved in the marine shipping world you might not be aware of how big a shakeup this was. It's like getting rid of leaded gas in cars.

 

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36 minutes ago, Zonker said:

You already have to.

There are special emissions area for the EU/US and Canada/Baltic and North Sea. All require fuel with less than the IMO limit for sulphur. The Jan 2020 change reduced the SOx emissions by ~77%.  (3.5% -> 0.5%). CO2 emissions don't change with fuel type. If you're not involved in the marine shipping world you might not be aware of how big a shakeup this was. It's like getting rid of leaded gas in cars.

 

I think you’re conflating what I’m saying. I’m saying no more fuel switching. 

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My instinct is that this race idea won’t catch on

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7 hours ago, Miffy said:

I think you’re conflating what I’m saying. I’m saying no more fuel switching. 

If you switch shipping to #2 diesel all the time, other users of diesel and nearby cuts like kerosene and heating oil see their fuel prices rise. FYI

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4 hours ago, JL92S said:

My instinct is that this race idea won’t catch on

It might if the containers were used to ship actual race boats for inshore races, as opposed to the tacky feel good nonsense of the sailing container race. 

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It might be time to mention that using very large manpower intensive relatively dangerous and fragile racing boats to move commercial cargo only made sense for the most valuable cargoes like tea from China or people in a hurry to get to California for the gold rush. Most commerce plodded along in big 6KSBs ;)

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Buzzkills - what is up with all the common sense and facts? Time to think outside the container! Call it the new and improved box rule. Make it 2 rules, one for the 20' and another for the 40' - the Maxi pad class.  Seriously, you know you have time to make it the new extreme (slow) racing.

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Large ships address the low sulfur fuel by carrying smaller tanks of that fuel that they use when in ‘controlled’ waters.  At sea, they switch over to the cheap stuff....

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1 hour ago, Veeger said:

Large ships address the low sulfur fuel by carrying smaller tanks of that fuel that they use when in ‘controlled’ waters.  At sea, they switch over to the cheap stuff....

This is news to me :huh:....and I work in the industry.

 

Although, I will say that I've only worked on vessels flagged US........so there is a possibility this may be true.  However, switching fuels like that would be hard on the engines.

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22 minutes ago, Jkdubz808 said:

This is news to me :huh:....and I work in the industry.

 

Although, I will say that I've only worked on vessels flagged US........so there is a possibility this may be true.  However, switching fuels like that would be hard on the engines.

Pretty common with bulk carriers in particular which often have varying seasonal routes. They’ll have a very robust fuel oil circulating/conditioning equipment - pickup diesel in Japan before they make the trip to Canada/Washington/Oregon/California. 

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