Meat Wad

IOR is dead for a reason

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5 hours ago, bgytr said:

Also when you get 2 guys on the phrf rating board who are in your class when you buy a new unique boat and they decide they don't want you to be competitive against them and give you an 18 sec/mile screw job rating. 

This is precisely why you don't buy a custom 1-off boat to take PHRF racing.

It doesn't matter if board members are in your class or not, you will always have doubts, protests, filings for rating adjustment, etc. You want a boat with at least dozens (or better, hundreds) built, especially sailing in your area. The "trick" to winning in PHRF is get a boat whose rating is cast in stone, then prepare your boat better than the other guys, keep her in fresh sails, and then sail it better than your competition.

I know "sailing better than your competition" is kind of a rude requirement for winning, but that's the big "trick".

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15 minutes ago, Somebody Else said:

I know "sailing better than your competition" is kind of a rude requirement for winning, but that's the big "trick".

This is madness!

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3 hours ago, fastyacht said:

What the bloody hell is that guy doing over the port lifelines?!
Why is the helmsman steering by the lee? All together bad.

There are a number of poor practices shown here, all contributing to big rolls: Kite trim- sheet is eased way to far (clew PAST headstay), sheet is not twinged down, pole too high & forward. What is hanging off bow? Crew too far forward. Fat crew standing in helm cockpit blocking tiller. Helm steering with tiller between legs? No chance of big/fast response. Runner should be forward to clear boom for jibe - a good crew could let the boom cross over, and than flick it back with no issues.

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

There is no such thing as hull speed.

My bad - that explains everything.

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36 minutes ago, Somebody Else said:

This is precisely why you don't buy a custom 1-off boat to take PHRF racing.

It doesn't matter if board members are in your class or not, you will always have doubts, protests, filings for rating adjustment, etc. You want a boat with at least dozens (or better, hundreds) built, especially sailing in your area. The "trick" to winning in PHRF is get a boat whose rating is cast in stone, then prepare your boat better than the other guys, keep her in fresh sails, and then sail it better than your competition.

I know "sailing better than your competition" is kind of a rude requirement for winning, but that's the big "trick".

Around Annapolis area, if I was looking to specifically race keelboats, I'd get a J105 and stay away from handicap as much as possible.  Really good local fleet, I've crewed on one here for 20ish years.  God am I that old?  But it's tough to cruise a J105 for more than a few days and cruising is my focus now.  If I enter the occasional race in a season it will be a point to point race in the non-spin class

VPP rules here seem to be getting some traction.  Most are sick of phrf and the brain-dead shenanigans that those in charge continue to pull.  But overall the handicap scene is really dying.  There is a bit of growth in the cruiser and short-handed classes, and the ORR-ez is catching on amongst those folks.  It will be interesting to see what happens over the next couple years especially after this virus thing.

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On 5/11/2020 at 4:15 PM, 12 metre said:

And yet some people would say the Farr 727 is a classic IOR design.  After all, it won more world championships than any Ranger 28.  But the 727 was a relatively narrow beamed (8.33 ft) wide ass frac with good reaching/running performance.

farr_727_drawing.gif

I almost bought one of those in the late 70's glad i didn't as the J-24 was also new and rated PHRF about 30 sec/mile faster.  

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1 minute ago, barefoot children said:

I almost bought one of those in the late 70's glad i didn't as the J-24 was also new and rated PHRF about 30 sec/mile faster.  

and my 505 will beat a J24 in many conditions.

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2 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

Why?

 

So I could hoist my genoa? Is this a trick question?

Oh - why not just leave the rope halyard there I was using a messenger? Well the halyard I just replaced will pull the genoa up tomorrow and drop it around January , hoist it around March or April, and repeat. That wire will spend a long time in the same spot on the sheave. That sheave is decades old and probably has some burr or rough spot that would eat rope sooner or later.  I'll be retired the next time I need to change this one ;)

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One thing I will never understand with PHRF is why it’s not nationally administered to avoid all these local shenanigans, PY in the U.K. is RYA administered to ensure that there is a big enough sample size and avoid local manipulation.......yes, I know the weather is different etc etc, but please it would avoid most of the BS

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On 5/7/2020 at 6:25 PM, Meat Wad said:

WTF is it with all the nostalgia? Post a photo and in 1 sec, you can tell is is an IOR POS.

IOR is dead because people got tired of doing hull speed and rolling like crazy downwind.

I get the nostalgia, but WTF, you wanna attract new younger viewers? or You want to hang on to the dead.

 

Oh I forgot, no one can afford the new J boats so yea. Lets all buy old POS IOR boats.

 

 

Something lighter than J boats, for Gods sake.  More like Pogos, he pleaded?  But skinnier. J boats built one really light boat and hardly anyone bought it.  At least IOR has history, er, provenance :lol::lol::lol: on it’s side....

here’s an interesting boat

https://www.wauquiez.com/en/optio/optio

but we bit the bullet and had a 40’ ULDB cruising sled designed and built 20 years ago, and mostly we get told she’s bullshit.  And so it goes....  

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

but we bit the bullet and had a 40’ ULDB cruising sled designed and built 20 years ago, and mostly we get told she’s bullshit.  And so it goes....  

I was on Amati at PT when she was new or nearly so.

Not bullshit.

One of the best thought out boats for around here that I've ever seen.

Very similar philosophy to Francis Lee I thought. (in an entirely different boat of course)

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10 hours ago, Guvacine said:

One thing I have always wondered. That hull shape is clearly displacement and limited to hull speed. So why carry sooooo much sail that will just over power the boat (which is limited to hull speed)? Is it to gain the little bit of extra speed from momentary surfing?

Ohh, Grasshopper...

I remember a round the Island race during Block Island Race Week in 1982.  We were on an older Hood 1 Tonner, (USNA Brandywine) trying to chase down a C&C 40 that was only a couple hundred yards ahead of us.  The course was a run.  It was blowing hard enough that a number one and full main was just about perfect, and was what the C&C was carrying.  With the same sail combo, we could match their speed, but not close on them.  I was convinced we could carry the 2.2 oz. "Bullet Proof" chute, and if we did, we'd catch them (and be able to take them to leeward).  Much discussion between myself (guest tactician) and the Skipper (classmate and good friend).  Finally I prevailed (or he gave up) and we set the chute.  Speed instantly jumped by about 1/2 a knot, and we started closing,  Until a gust came along, and we broached.  Fought the boat back on course, having lost all we gained and them some, and started eating them back up...until...yep another gust and another broach.  And so it went for the next 3 miles or so to the mark.  In the end, they rounded ahead of us by about the same amount of lead they had originally...

 

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8 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Pulling them is the nautical equivalent of slashing tires.

Skying them is like letting the air out.

Pulling dead (squashed head - by car, eye popped out - the lot....) possums to the top of the rig AND skying the rest of the halyards is hilarious

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2 hours ago, Crash said:

Ohh, Grasshopper...

I remember a round the Island race during Block Island Race Week in 1982.  We were on an older Hood 1 Tonner, (USNA Brandywine) trying to chase down a C&C 40 that was only a couple hundred yards ahead of us.  The course was a run.  It was blowing hard enough that a number one and full main was just about perfect, and was what the C&C was carrying.  With the same sail combo, we could match their speed, but not close on them.  I was convinced we could carry the 2.2 oz. "Bullet Proof" chute, and if we did, we'd catch them (and be able to take them to leeward).  Much discussion between myself (guest tactician) and the Skipper (classmate and good friend).  Finally I prevailed (or he gave up) and we set the chute.  Speed instantly jumped by about 1/2 a knot, and we started closing,  Until a gust came along, and we broached.  Fought the boat back on course, having lost all we gained and them some, and started eating them back up...until...yep another gust and another broach.  And so it went for the next 3 miles or so to the mark.  In the end, they rounded ahead of us by about the same amount of lead they had originally...

 

I think I was on a C&C 40 around then...

Was the 40 you were chasing named Coyote? 

Pretty sure I was there that year!

 

Edit: l'm a few years off -  C&C 40 for me was '84... Time is a vampire!

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17 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Handiap racing is a strange game....

 

17 hours ago, JoeO said:

And I think a contributing factor was that designers' VPPs were better than the MHS/IMS one, so it became easy to "game" the system. Remember at this point a lot of computing power was being applied to designing IACC Cup boats (SAIC, etc.), and the designers involved in those campaigns were leap-frogging the MHS/IMS rule VPP-keepers as far as VPP sophistication and accuracy.

 

15 hours ago, fastyacht said:

This is an interesting point.

 

16 hours ago, Panoramix said:

I think that one has to accept that handicap systems are inherently type forming as soon as the racing becomes serious. So once you have acceped this, you make sure that the rule nudge toward boats that are safe and fast. One thing that IRC got right is nudging designs toward stiff boats with lot of ballast, that was probably because they learnt from IOR weaknesses!

A nugget of gold. A post sequence directly  linked to the OP without knowing and where something important is missed.

History of a rule in response to the decline in IOR, it's transformation into a current rule & to the death of and rebirth of another IOR rule response.

Who really were the influencers of this?

The Channel Handicap System (CHS) was developed in 1983 for as the name implies for racing in the English Channel between Britain and France. 

CHS was the Euro equivalent of the American Measurement Handicap System (MHS) first developed in 1976 as an alternative to IOR. This was based upon the physical hull and sail plan characteristics not racing performance.

So by measuring the three dimensional characterists of a hull, a computer program for assessing boat speed at various wind speeds and angles was used. This is instead of using measurements at certain points to create a rating and then assigning compensation like IOR, but use scientific and objective criteria instead. Aka VPP as we know it today. In 1985 MHS went international adopted by the Offshore Racing Congress (ORC) to become the International Measurement System (IMS).

So in 1983  like their American cousins the British RORC and the French UNCL, who jointly developed the CHS rule, saw it as a means to get the "average club sailor" involved. The hope that they would subsequently upgrade their boat to participate under the IOR rule, or later on possibly the MHS/IMS handicapping system if that became more established over IOR.

Unlike IOR the CHS rule was not published, meaning the only bodies capable of calculating an CHS rating were the RORC Rating Office and UNCL Centre de Calcul in Paris being joint owners of the Rule. 

So theoretically no longer did the rule dictate boat designs, it also prevented older designs gaining less favourable ratings making racing competitively more expensive. Also this avoided designs which performed well under a rule but we're say excessively contorted, beamy and a handfull aka the classic 'diamond' plan and overhang form that IOR and all its trillion fucking amendments produced since the early 70's. 

So exactly as you say Pano; "you make sure that the rule nudge toward boats that are safe and fast. One thing that IRC got right is nudging designs toward stiff boats with lot of ballast, that was probably because they learnt from IOR weaknesses!"

So a new rule that also produced more atheistic looking boats to the eye, easier to handle and favouring cheaper multi purpose heavier racer/cruiser boats with lower sail areas and thus dissuading more extreme and expensive racing boats coming in to CHS and fucking up the party.

The racers home was IOR in the 1980's and by 1993 what was left of it with those desperate to hang onto it. The 1994 Whitbread the classic example of that desperation with NZ/Dalton insisting maxi's compete with the new Whitbread 60. That cunt has a lot to answer for but that's another story. Their other refuge was obviously the new IMS rule when regattas and Ocean races introduced both IOR and IMS divisions.

CHS was also designed to use the minimum number of measurements, in contrast to both the IOR and IMS, and to have owners measure their own boats, to make it simple and economic to implement.

So looking good you would say?? Well maybe not.

Fast you say; "Handiap racing is a strange game"

So how some strange events unfolded

Pano you say "I think that one has to accept that handicap systems are inherently type forming as soon as the racing becomes serious."

True but that applies more to a later era when computing power started to abound just as JoeO says; "And I think a contributing factor was that designers' VPPs were better than the MHS/IMS one, so it became easy to "game" the system. Remember at this point a lot of computing power was being applied to designing IACC Cup boats (SAIC, etc.), .."

Well CHS quickly became popular, including overseas iterations and even more so when the rule was extended to include day sailing keelboats, extending from the origin need for cruising style accommodation and more stringent safety equipment for sailing offshore.

However wind back to the the late 1980's/early 90's with IOR in rapid decline and a production builder like Beneteau seeing their renowned IOR inspired racer/cruiser First sales like the First 405 going down the toilet.

So with this in mind and their response have a look at what CHS boats were taking all the silverware.

Hey presto we have the Beneteau First 53f5 I posted upthread, (it's offspring this new First 53 offering Shacklenuts has wet his pants over) and the 53f5's smaller cousin the 45f5.

592657493_images-2019-10-15T153445_547.jpeg.407f7fff549582445565b4b937493e3f.jpeg.d6a82d0abd8ef90e112271163bc0d951.jpeg20973178_images-2019-10-15T162758_529.jpeg.86dc1c7bff6dd0a707aed9166b006c74.jpeg.6b30c06fe8e0033a0338169b00d5995e.jpeg

The following is just the tip of the iceberg for Beneteau's success under CHS in the 90's and interestingly Farr designs, where previously European designers were favoured.

1990 Royal Ocean Racing Club - Yacht of the Year (Beneteau First 45f5), & CHS Class, "Cap Sogea"

1991 Royal Ocean Racing Club  Yacht of the Year (Beneteau First 53f5) & CHS Class, "Yellow and Blue"

1992 Royal Ocean Racing Club - Yacht of the Year (Beneteau First 45f5) &  CHS Class, "Bounder"

Now how did this remarkable success for Beneteau transpire year after year?

Well there are many British conspiracy theorists who believe that via the the joint CHS rule owner, the UNCL Centre de Calcul in Paris, Beneteau got access to the rule and then gamed the system from the front end. "Build them, they win and sell more of them," or Rule 101 of marketing anything from racehorses to race cars.

By the way Beneteau were also doing well in the IMS/IOR period with IMS. For example the 1993 Royal Ocean Racing Club Yacht of the Year being a Beneteau First IMS 40.7 and interestingly a very keen Beneteau patron as it was "Bounder 2" where the CHS Bounder 1 took the silverware in 1992. The Farr 40.7 and it's subsequent iterations I think their biggest ever seller?

However in July 1998 with CHS having become an international benchmark for cruiser/racing in various forms it was announced CHS would be replaced by the newly formed IR2000 Club (IRC) and would become effective a year early starting by Jan 1999.

Now whether this response was in part Anglo pushback against the French and the dominance of French production boat building at the time or not, I think many have an opinion it was.

This was a interim step towards IR2000 Measured (IRM) with full implementation in January 2000.

This stepped introduction of the new rule was designed to create the seamless change from CHS to IR2000 and allow IRC certificates to be issued in exactly the same way as previously under CHS. Owners applied for re-validation in the normal manner and from January 1999 they received in return an IRC certificate.

From a race management perspective there was no change as the IRC certificate showed a simple TCF figure like CHS. This was the first version of the IRC rule.

March 1998 - IRC MEASUREMENT MANUAL

In 2003 IRC was recognised as an international rule by ISAF.

As for IMS? The argument against IMS was it penalised light, fast but stiff modern boats. So in 2008 the ORC adopted the "VPP based ORC International Rule" with the IMS foundation binned, though some elements survived. It has been obviously fine tuned since with two different iterations.

That is where we are today in the crewed offshore rating world of IRC and ORC.

Now a Quiz

So if you were forced to pick one entity and only one that BOTH took IOR off life support and kicked IMS to the kerb at a critical time? Critical also to the extent IRC is now the most popular offshore rating system adopted for the "principal silverware" in signature events, though often divisions jointly offered to participants??

In doing so this entity ALSO unknowingly helped create a vacuum of "rules uncertainty" in the 1990's that allowed light, quick, short-handed "box-design" RTW racing to grab attention and subsequently flourish at the expense of their crewed RTW counterparts??

The villian is???

It was the sneaky French/Beneteau between 1989 and 1996 (assisted unknowingly by a US domiciled Kiwi race boat designer, French architect and sexy Italian car designer)  ....if you're a international conspiracy theorist that is. :ph34r:

PS. Apologies for the word salad...once I had the thought I couldn't stop.

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3 hours ago, Crash said:

Ohh, Grasshopper...

I remember a round the Island race during Block Island Race Week in 1982.  We were on an older Hood 1 Tonner, (USNA Brandywine) trying to chase down a C&C 40 that was only a couple hundred yards ahead of us.  The course was a run.  It was blowing hard enough that a number one and full main was just about perfect, and was what the C&C was carrying.  With the same sail combo, we could match their speed, but not close on them.  I was convinced we could carry the 2.2 oz. "Bullet Proof" chute, and if we did, we'd catch them (and be able to take them to leeward).  Much discussion between myself (guest tactician) and the Skipper (classmate and good friend).  Finally I prevailed (or he gave up) and we set the chute.  Speed instantly jumped by about 1/2 a knot, and we started closing,  Until a gust came along, and we broached.  Fought the boat back on course, having lost all we gained and them some, and started eating them back up...until...yep another gust and another broach.  And so it went for the next 3 miles or so to the mark.  In the end, they rounded ahead of us by about the same amount of lead they had originally...

 

And the winning boat in this particular mini-contest-between-two is the one with the most ice cubes left in their drinks at the end of the leg.

I'm guessing you came a close second?

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@jack_sparrow interesting that there was this claim in the UK that the French were gaming the system. Equally around 97 (not sure of the exact year), a Gibsea 414 was bringing home lot of silverware in CHS, so the popular conspiracy theory on French pontoons was that it was winning because the designer was British (Rob Humphrey) and obviously he had access to the formula!

TBH, I think that the formula could as well be public now, there were so many certificates issued that designers know what works to "game the system". It is actually not really gaming the system, more designing the kind of boats the rule expects.

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7 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

@jack_sparrow interesting that there was this claim in the UK that the French were gaming the system. Equally around 97 (not sure of the exact year), a Gibsea 414 was bringing home lot of silverware in CHS, so the popular conspiracy theory on French pontoons was that it was winning because the designer was British (Rob Humphrey) and obviously he had access to the formula!

Dates are often not coincidental...the change came out of the blue.

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

However in July 1998 with CHS having become an international benchmark for cruiser/racing in various forms it was announced CHS would be replaced by the newly formed IR2000 Club (IRC) and would become effective a year early starting by Jan 1999.

 

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26 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Dates are often not coincidental...the change came out of the blue.

 

OK, so I checked a bit more. The Gib sea 414 was manufactured between 1994 and 1997, so I imagine that the boat was trusting podium a bit earlier (likely 1995 to 1997). I was active in CHS in those years but in smaller classes so can't recall in detail what was happening with "les gros culs" (the big asses, French slang for bigger boats).

I also remember the switch : so now we are racing in IRC, what's the difference, Dunno, the rating is about the same!

It was pretty crappy to race upwind a 30 footer against 40 something Swans but that was to teach us that we weren't supposed to race something light and overpowered. Being agile and able to force the big Swans to perform extra tacks or gybes was priceless as they would eventually tangle something despite the big guys manning the winches!

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21 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Ever changed sheaves over?

Over from wire-oriented to high-modulus braided line-oriented?

Yes. It required some restoration at the masthead and hounds but it was all within the ability of a resourceful amateur.

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23 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The following is just the tip of the iceberg for Beneteau's success under CHS in the 90's and interestingly Farr designs, where previously European designers were favoured.

Well there are many British conspiracy theorists who believe that via the the joint CHS rule owner, the UNCL Centre de Calcul in Paris, Beneteau got access to the rule and then gamed the system from the front end. "

Given that the most successful CHS boat ever was INDEPENDENT BEAR (so good they put her rating up 30 points in 98), designed in Cowes High St,  it’s hard to believe that the French were up to that much. 

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10 minutes ago, Snowden said:

Given that the most successful CHS boat ever was INDEPENDENT BEAR (so good they put her rating up 30 points in 98), designed in Cowes High St,  it’s hard to believe that the French were up to that much. 

After the French. I'm certain she was built in last 2 years before CHS folded to become IRC in Jan 1999.

On 5/14/2020 at 6:03 PM, jack_sparrow said:

It was the sneaky French/Beneteau between 1989 and 1996 (assisted unknowingly by a US domiciled Kiwi race boat designer, French architect and sexy Italian car designer)  ....if you're a international conspiracy theorist that is. :ph34r:

On 5/14/2020 at 6:03 PM, jack_sparrow said:

However in July 1998 with CHS having become an international benchmark for cruiser/racing in various forms it was announced CHS would be replaced by the newly formed IR2000 Club (IRC) and would become effective a year early starting by Jan 1999.

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16 minutes ago, Snowden said:

Given that the most successful CHS boat ever was INDEPENDENT BEAR (so good they put her rating up 30 points in 98), designed in Cowes High St,  it’s hard to believe that the French were up to that much. 

But it is the nature of handicap systems. if someone does well under handicap then they have wrong number, not best skills or just best luck.

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27 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

After the French. I'm certain she was built in last 2 years before CHS folded to become IRC in Jan 1999.

Actually you are right. For some reason I thought she was early 90s, I think that was some other Corby.

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28 minutes ago, Snowden said:

Actually you are right. For some reason I thought she was early 90s, I think that was some other Corby.

He did have quite a successful run of boats over the heyday of the rule. 

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What was the big boat with colourful spinnaker and blooper that used to be on the packet of photos you got back from having negatives developed. IIRC, it was credited to Beken.

P.S. if you don't know what a negative is, just move on, nothing to see here.

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3 hours ago, Snowden said:

Actually you are right. For some reason I thought she was early 90s, I think that was some other Corby.

Went and found some pics.  Doesn't require much imagination to see why her CHS rating was bumped. Narrow/big bulb.

Even under IRC when boats got fatter she would have more than held her own.

1-2.jpg

630441.jpg

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^ still sexy 20+ years later (although I think those pics are post-refit)

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59 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Went and found some pics.  Doesn't require much imagination to see why her CHS rating was bumped. Narrow/big bulb.

Even under IRC when boats got fatter she would have more than held her own.

1-2.jpg

630441.jpg

Seem to remember they added a load of beam to it at some stage, probably after the first rating review. 

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1 hour ago, Snowden said:

^ still sexy 20+ years later (although I think those pics are post-refit)

Yes, may be it is because these are boats from my era but I find her a lot sexier than IOR boats.

In IRC she must take a big hit for this big bulb!

I remember the Corby style sterns terrorising French boats!

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On 5/13/2020 at 10:12 PM, Amati said:

Something lighter than J boats, for Gods sake.  More like Pogos, he pleaded?  But skinnier. J boats built one really light boat and hardly anyone bought it.  At least IOR has history, er, provenance :lol::lol::lol: on it’s side....

here’s an interesting boat

https://www.wauquiez.com/en/optio/optio

but we bit the bullet and had a 40’ ULDB cruising sled designed and built 20 years ago, and mostly we get told she’s bullshit.  And so it goes....  

I have looked at the Optio but went larger or smaller instead. It is an interesting design and sails very well/.

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My favorite rule was the America's Cup boats had to sail from their home port to the race. Every challenger had to sail a 6,000 mile or more round trip and the USA boats had to be able to make 20 or 30 miles from Newport in generally light air.

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18 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

My favorite rule was the America's Cup boats had to sail from their home port to the race. Every challenger had to sail a 6,000 mile or more round trip and the USA boats had to be able to make 20 or 30 miles from Newport in generally light air.

Sounds about right to me, AC has always been gamed by the defender

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43 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

My favorite rule was the America's Cup boats had to sail from their home port to the race. Every challenger had to sail a 6,000 mile or more round trip and the USA boats had to be able to make 20 or 30 miles from Newport in generally light air.

Actually that goes all the way back to the beginning--in New York waters. And even better, the defenders had a fleet to defend with!

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3 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Actually that goes all the way back to the beginning--in New York waters. And even better, the defenders had a fleet to defend with!

I am 100% in favor of that rule coming back, with the proviso that the defender sail someplace like say around Bermuda and back to avoid the fragile light air flyer thing.

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9 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I am 100% in favor of that rule coming back, with the proviso that the defender sail someplace like say around Bermuda and back to avoid the fragile light air flyer thing.

Considering it was the "100 Guineas Cup" I still wonder why it didnt become the "100 Koalas Kup" in 1983.

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

You just gotta love rating rules.
 

Yeah.  It's the "you get what you measure" paradigm.  Usually with a hodge-podge of unintended consequences blended in

And not just in sailing.  If you're ever in Amsterdam, notice how narrow all the houses are along the canals... and notice that every one of them has a big stout beam with a pulley hanging from it at the peak of the roof.

That's because, way back when, the king decided to tax people based on how much canal-frontage their house covered.  So people built houses as narrow as they possibly could.  To the point that there was no way to get furniture to the upper floors, without hoisting it up the outside and sliding it through a window.

So it goes.

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9 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Yeah.  It's the "you get what you measure" paradigm.  Usually with a hodge-podge of unintended consequences blended in

And not just in sailing.  If you're ever in Amsterdam, notice how narrow all the houses are along the canals... and notice that every one of them has a big stout beam with a pulley hanging from it at the peak of the roof.

That's because, way back when, the king decided to tax people based on how much canal-frontage their house covered.  So people built houses as narrow as they possibly could.  To the point that there was no way to get furniture to the upper floors, without hoisting it up the outside and sliding it through a window.

So it goes.

That's a good one! In Maine when I was at school, I noticed that a number of houses had wooden stoops. "Why is that--it is so unfinished?"  "That's because the such and such tax isn't due until the stoop is installed--so they never did." Or something.

 

 

1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

You just gotta love rating rules.
144806scr_e058a3a3f2408c0.jpg

This particular shot is Charlie Barr with his very own plank on edge, SHONA. Notice his paycheck boat is in the background...designed to a very different rule...Photo by Nathaniel L. Stebbins.

Plank on edge of course developed out of the commercial tonnage rule in England, where beam was taxed but draft was not....(also length of keel, which is why all the curve and the ridiculously raked sternposts).

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

My favorite rule was the America's Cup boats had to sail from their home port to the race. Every challenger had to sail a 6,000 mile or more round trip and the USA boats had to be able to make 20 or 30 miles from Newport in generally light air.

The NYYC raised cheating and abuse of the rules to an art form.

My favourite was the "arm of the sea" rule. When Canada made an embarrassingly bad challenge from the Great Lakes with Countess of Dufferin the NYYC had the Deed of Gift changed specifically to exclude future challenges by clubs from the Great Lakes.

Then, in the 80's when they wanted Buddy Melges to defend they went to court and successfully argued that the Great Lakes were "an arm of the sea" and had their own rule change overturned.

The "thinking" in the legal decision effectively made any waterway on earth an arm of the sea because they all end up in the ocean eventually. Well, maybe no challenges from the Dead Sea or the Salton Sea.

"Sportsmanship". :lol:

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

The "thinking" in the legal decision effectively made any waterway on earth an arm of the sea because they all end up in the ocean eventually.

Including, for at least a moment, a lake high in the swiss alps....

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On 5/14/2020 at 2:10 AM, Mudsailor said:

One thing I will never understand with PHRF is why it’s not nationally administered to avoid all these local shenanigans, PY in the U.K. is RYA administered to ensure that there is a big enough sample size and avoid local manipulation.......

Not correct I'm afraid. Clubs can and do adjust the numbers.

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21 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Went and found some pics.  Doesn't require much imagination to see why her CHS rating was bumped. Narrow/big bulb.

Even under IRC when boats got fatter she would have more than held her own.

1-2.jpg

630441.jpg

For sale still i think on Yachthub

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Loved my IOR sailing - don’t get  me wrong, the designs the rule produced were not as much fun to sail as today’s performance boats (I gave up lead when I turned 50 and sail A Cats and F18s now) - but sailing in the IOR days was more fun than today’s big boat scene in the US - In the IOR days we didn’t have to wear matching outfits, more emphasis on having fun together - it was more about a group adventure, less about stroking the owners ego........ 

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17 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Not correct I'm afraid. Clubs can and do adjust the numbers.

But at least there is national oversight, Over here it’s the Wild West.....different boards give and adjust ratings, local boards are often controlled by a couple of powerful people. , ratings don’t transfer from area to area

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On 5/15/2020 at 7:57 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

My favorite rule was the America's Cup boats had to sail from their home port to the race. Every challenger had to sail a 6,000 mile or more round trip and the USA boats had to be able to make 20 or 30 miles from Newport in generally light air.

 

On 5/15/2020 at 8:56 AM, fastyacht said:

Considering it was the "100 Guineas Cup" I still wonder why it didnt become the "100 Koalas Kup" in 1983.

IIRC, that 'must arrive on her own bottom' rule was in place during the RYS's 100 guinea cup race which schooner America won.  The boat was built light but massively reinforced with temporary bracing for its transatlantic trip, which bracing was stripped out for racing.

 

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5 hours ago, Mudsailor said:

But at least there is national oversight (PY in the UK)

Oversight, no, there really isn't. The only thing that's national is a suggested list of ratings, primarily for dinghy classes. Clubs are encouraged to adjust ratings to suit their local waters and they do.

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On 5/16/2020 at 9:16 PM, cbulger said:

Loved my IOR sailing - don’t get  me wrong, the designs the rule produced were not as much fun to sail as today’s performance boats 

You call this "not as much fun..as today boats" ???

Son you weren't fucking trying hard enough :P

spinnaker2.jpg.76fa048aa283946f37206856a20b5417.jpg

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

You call this "not as much fun"?

spinnaker2.jpg.76fa048aa283946f37206856a20b5417.jpg

If you listen carefully, you can still hear the ‘Oh Fuck’ as the boom starts to whistle over everyone’s heads. :P

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2 minutes ago, mad said:

If you listen carefully, you can still hear the ‘Oh Fuck’ as the boom starts to whistle over everyone’s heads. :P

Hey Skip...is now a good time to revisit my idea about us having a "bow-mount-preventer"??

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

You call this "not as much fun..as today boats" ???

Son you weren't fucking trying hard enough :P

spinnaker2.jpg.76fa048aa283946f37206856a20b5417.jpg

What boat is that?  The doesn't look like a pinched, distorted IOR stern.

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I'd guess a Beneteau 36.7...

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1 hour ago, bgytr said:

What boat is that?  The doesn't look like a pinched, distorted IOR stern.

Bigator who said it was a fucking IOR boat you very poor reader and story pooper???

It is a 20+ year old boat design that predated both mature IRC and ORC boats and has a fuckin pole and it is going tits up so a lot of fun, if of the machismo kind.

It certainly is not what the poster refered to being a"..today’s performance boats.." that he states are more fun and to wit I replied to, carefully not highlighting IOR in his post (which you did not notice when cooking your hasty ill-considered reply), that he was wrong.

My exact reply; 'You call this "not as much fun..as today boats"' ???

Bigator reply to that you now make in a "not IOR" questioning and fucking agumentive tone?

That's probably enough said :D

On 5/16/2020 at 9:16 PM, cbulger said:

...as today’s performance boats...

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36 minutes ago, jww said:

I'd guess a Beneteau 36.7...

I driven one of those in what should have been Fast Is Fun mode. What a horror show. The genius designers of Beneteau were able to recreate that special IOR feel without adherence to the IOR rule!

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27 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

I driven one of those in what should have been Fast Is Fun mode. What a horror show. The genius designers of Beneteau were able to recreate that special IOR feel without adherence to the IOR rule!

" What a horror show...recreate that special IOR feel without adherence to the IOR rule!"

Wonderful words.

36 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

It is a 20+ year old boat design that predated both mature IRC and ORC boats and has a fuckin pole

Thank you El ..if you don't mind my lawyer will call you as an expert witness in my case against Bigator over his libelous post having me incuring reputational damage on SA. Don't worry will pay you a hefty fee.

When you speak to her and she identifies herself, just be aware she is not refering to you. You will then understand why I'm using her to chase Bigator into the ground and pick up a few bucks.

The woman's a fucking terrier.

IMG_20200515_093100.jpg.99685e7e61a8aad67d73b3cfc05042d9.jpg

 

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Different boats ...but the same agreeable  sequence.

Roll 1 and roll 2 done with boom now flipped over ...roll 3 coming up

..this is where the guy on the after guy/brace gets blamed for everything albeit he is not keen on taking out the forestay and never been invited back again and the owner's son is on the sheet frozen and blameless.

The guy on the vang having already busted one boom is of two minds so is doing eni mini minie mo in his head.

The bowman is eying off and glaring at anyone who goes near the topping lift.

The owner driver who started it all by not staying under the kite instead driving to the mark is yelling as usual and as usual no one is listening.

Those experienced cleat off and go to the pushpit and light up a smoke. 

3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

You call this "not as much fun..as today boats" ???

Son you weren't fucking trying hard enough :P

spinnaker2.jpg.76fa048aa283946f37206856a20b5417.jpg

 

3 hours ago, mad said:

If you listen carefully, you can still hear the ‘Oh Fuck’ as the boom starts to whistle over everyone’s heads. :P

 

3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hey Skip...is now a good time to revisit my idea about us having a "bow-mount-preventer"??

 

1 hour ago, See Level said:

It's just how you sail ior boats

 

admirals-cup-cowes-1979-photo-jonathan-eastland-ajax-news-dppi.jpg

 

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They had way better looking spinnakers back then too.

What is with those all white ones anyway?

image.png.ba99ae0ba46a40c19257865f6f4c32a5.png

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2 hours ago, See Level said:

It's just how you sail ior boats

 

admirals-cup-cowes-1979-photo-jonathan-eastland-ajax-news-dppi.jpg

 

Looks like Razzle Dazzle??  Should have had the Blooper up to steady in high wind DDW!! LOL!

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37 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

Looks like Razzle Dazzle?? 

Midnight Sun would be my bet.

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38 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

Looks like Razzle Dazzle??  Should have had the Blooper up to steady in high wind DDW!! LOL!

Swedish boat, maybe Midnight Sun?

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4 hours ago, See Level said:

It's just how you sail ior boats

 

admirals-cup-cowes-1979-photo-jonathan-eastland-ajax-news-dppi.jpg

Is that before or after the jibe?

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1 hour ago, billy backstay said:

 Should have had the Blooper up to steady in high wind DDW!! LOL!

If you look at the fleet behind them, no-one has a blooper up. None of them seem to be rolling either and the boat with black sails beating through the fleet isn't in heavy wind.

Maybe the two in front have hit a stronger wind.

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4 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

They had way better looking spinnakers back then too.

What is with those all white ones anyway?

The reason for one color spinnakers is getting all the cloth from the same batch with the closest possible stretch characteristics across the entire sail.

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2 hours ago, Liquid said:

Is that before or after the jibe?

Just before the gybe, but the main has already swung over.  Midnight Sun, Holland 51 in Admiral's Cup 1981. 

Lars in the pulpit all ready, Timmy "Twinstay" Stearn driving, Jean-Louis Fabry naviguessing, and yours truly in the pit.  I took over mainsheet for the rest of the series and the Fastnet after that one.  Which we survived OK.

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7 hours ago, El Boracho said:

I driven one of those in what should have been Fast Is Fun mode. What a horror show. The genius designers of Beneteau were able to recreate that special IOR feel without adherence to the IOR rule!

I disagree. I owned a 36.7 for several years and never had any issues with it developing a ior-ish wobble down wind. In fact, it was one of the best behaved downwind in heavy air boats, I've driven. If it had a fault, it was the numb feeling in the helm so you couldn't tell when it things were about to go pear shaped.

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29 minutes ago, Somebody Else said:

The reason for one color spinnakers is getting all the cloth from the same batch with the closest possible stretch characteristics across the entire sail.

Plus the guys in the front of the pack can sell their all-white kites to the lower echelons at the end of the season.  

(And you don't get someone like a Cayard falling in love with lime green cloth (even though the dye ate at the fabric as he blew up his pretty kites in the AC.)  

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55 minutes ago, Somebody Else said:

The reason for one color spinnakers is getting all the cloth from the same batch with the closest possible stretch characteristics across the entire sail.

Sounds a tad OCD.

 

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

If you look at the fleet behind them, no-one has a blooper up. None of them seem to be rolling either and the boat with black sails beating through the fleet isn't in heavy wind.

Maybe the two in front have hit a stronger wind.

 

Sorry mate, I forgot the purple sarcasm font.  I thought the LOL would suffice...

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4 hours ago, Liquid said:

Is that before or after the jibe?

The back half has jibed and the front half hasn't OR the back half hasn't and the front half has, but the bowman has got a really fucking bad case of amnesia and forgotten it...or had a heart attack and died still wedged between the forestay and pulpit.

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4 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The back half has jibed and the front half hasn't OR the back half hasn't and the front half has, but the bowman has got a really fucking bad case of amnesia and forgotten it...or had a heart attack and died still wedged between the forestay and pulpit.

He died with his boots on.

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The back half has jibed and the front half hasn't OR the back half hasn't and the front half has, but the bowman has got a really fucking bad case of amnesia and forgotten it...or had a heart attack and died still wedged between the forestay and pulpit.

Timmy gybed accidentally just as we were setting up, and the main hammered across.  The gybe was completed to plan, and off we went on our merry way.  The boat behind is the Peterson 46 Apollo.

The 81 Fastnet was a weird one.  Normal breeze, but 30 miles past the Lizard on the way back we saw several large boats parked in front, and we sailed into the hole too, just 15 miles from the finish.  After a time we were joined by the entire fleet, maxis to half tonners.  36 hours later the breeze re-started.  We were second across the finish and placed 234th on corrected.

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10 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

The 81 Fastnet was a weird one. 

Park up at the beginning too?? 

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Park up at the beginning too?? 

I don't remember, actually.  May have been.  Lots of anchoring techniques anyway. 

Like the 83 Channel Race when the whole AC fleet was anchored just West of CH1 off Cherbourg in a sluicing West-going tide. 

I thought I'd try an experiment and half an hour before the predicted change of tide direction I started logging boat speed (tide speed) every minute on a bit of graph paper to estimate the exact moment when it would hit zero.  About 30 seconds before the calculated turn, I got our excellent Japanese crew to start hauling short on the anchor cable.  It was still going West at one knot at that time and other crews were looking at us in mystification.  Pretty well when the anchor broke free, we made with the light no.1 and off to the buoy. 

Everyone else swung the other way and were frantically pulling up their picks against the now East-going tide.  First boat round CH1!  My only moment of glory in that AC.

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It was a bit of carnage as boats started to swing and tangle, and some rafted up quite nastily.  One customer got Condor's cable round his keel and instead of working the problem took a knife to Condor's anchor rode.  Plenty of multilingual bad language all around, I believe.

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Quote

Sounds a tad OCD.

Not really.

Making uniform cloth is difficult and the batches are definitely serialized. Just getting the crispy coat uniform is difficult. Different stretch characteristics result in lumpy sails. For extreme examples, look at how all those 2-tone hybrid Kevlar/Dacron sails aged in the '80s. "What do you mean it costs twice as much and lasts half as long?!?!"

Plus the dyes all had different effects on the base fiber. Some dyes weakened the fibers. The single color trend started in the Olympic classes and then spread out into the upper echelons of handicap racing.

Now I am willing to accept that anyone focused enough to win Olympic gold is probably well advanced on the OCD spectrum, but if everyone on the podium is doing it...

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Was pretty standard procedure years ago to buy a whole roll of cloth so that sails off a pattern were less variable as the cloth was the same.

 

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5 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Midnight Sun, Holland 51 in Admiral's Cup 1981

I just remembered built by Wolter Huisman (just before Flyer) and best alloy build on the water at that time.

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Just now, jack_sparrow said:

I just remembered built by Wolter Huisman (just before Flyer) and best alloy build on the water at that time.

Yes, a really superb boat.  I did an AC and also a Sardinia Cup on it.  One of the best boats I ever sailed.