Meat Wad

IOR is dead for a reason

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

I spent a good time driving the US...my most valuable possession was a book...Best Bars in America.

Are you counting time behind the wheel of minivans on the Interstates?  ;)

The best bars are off two-lane blacktop in places with funny names near saltwater.  

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3 hours ago, Left Shift said:

For a lot of mid-weight IRC/ORC boats the cross-over point from Assy to Sym occurs at about 12 knots true when you can put the bow down and work a different part of your polars. 

This is a key area of sail design optimisation in ORC, working TPS and midgirths to where the polar is relatively flat from 145 to 180 TWA in moderate to heavy breeze so that there is no need to include a symmetrical.  This is part of what makes a square top main so good off the wind.  Its a huge tactical gain.

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6 hours ago, JonRowe said:

JPK will give you plenty of options for what kind of pole you want, and they're not the only french builder to do so. I think at least one UK based big JPK did the symmetric to asymmetric dance for the Fastnet last year.

Yes, on long coastal/offshore races if you are in VMG mode downwind, the chances are it means that you are in trouble and the man in charge of navigation needs to find excuses to justify being on the wrong tack at the beginning! Most of the time there is a shift at some point which eventually means that boat speed on the right tack matters more than sailing as low as possible! So off the boat goes the symmetric!

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16 hours ago, Liquid said:

To current pros here.... I'm jealous! I was paid to do bow, largest boat was a swan 47..... back in the 80's.....

I made a bad decision 40 years ago!. Pro sailing just didn't seem like a viable option then... I fucked that one up - fully! 

 

 

Back then - IOR: Golden age of a bowman.........................................! (I would probably shit my pants on the bow of Commachie tho!)..... different understood fears...

The boats then, when sailed correctly, were a team thing of beauty! Sure, fuck, they were slow and unmanageable but........

Doing bow was awesome and fucking terrifying...!

I only did 'small' boats.... less 50ers'...

IOR memories are seared into my mind!

Did bow on a Swan 47 (I own her now) and spent time in the 'passenger compartment' driving. Best advice I ever got was "follow the kite, not the course". Worked like a charm, right until it didn't.

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Is it time for the annual ‘IOR was the greatest’ thread already? Gosh this year has flown. Any thing new this year or is it the same stories and memories doing the rounds for the 100th time?

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18 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Is it time for the annual ‘IOR was the greatest’ thread already? Gosh this year has flown. Any thing new this year or is it the same stories and memories doing the rounds for the 100th time?

All the very best ones of bravery, wire and 2.2 Oz heavy kites.  :P

I’ve got a great book I can recommend all about the heady days of delivery trips and racing around the world......

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Is it time for the annual ‘IOR was the greatest’ thread already? Gosh this year has flown. Any thing new this year or is it the same stories and memories doing the rounds for the 100th time?

This is the "IOR is Dead" thread.

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Funny how everyone fondly remember the deliveries now none does them but everyone is a legend!

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4 hours ago, Caca Cabeza said:

Did bow on a Swan 47 (I own her now) and spent time in the 'passenger compartment' driving. Best advice I ever got was "follow the kite, not the course". Worked like a charm, right until it didn't.

Hull under the mast tip!!! Then and now....

Just a ton easier to do it now!

Different methods and speeds...

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6 hours ago, mad said:

All the very best ones of bravery, wire and 2.2 Oz heavy kites.  :P

I’ve got a great book I can recommend all about the heady days of delivery trips and racing around the world......

Does Chas have you on commission?  Surely there won't be a better one out there.

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1 hour ago, TUBBY said:

Does Chas have you on commission?  Surely there won't be a better one out there.

The 40 year pod cast in person is better...that's a lot of drinking shoes. 

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I have enough trouble understanding Chas when we are spilling drinks on each other,  both sober and through a speaker?  No chance!

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16 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

I have enough trouble understanding Chas when we are spilling drinks on each other,  both sober and through a speaker?  No chance!

The old bastard is still at it, driving boats across oceans.  He should know better at his age.  "Umm, ahhh.."  "Umm... aaah.."

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17 hours ago, Liquid said:

Hull under the mast tip!!! Then and now....

Just a ton easier to do it now!

Different methods and speeds...

One night going past the confluence of Sea of Cortez and Pacific, we had the 2.2 kite up in 28-30 apparent trying to surf a Swan 47 (it won't). It took 3 'drivers' to stay under the kite. The helmsman and a 'power steering' guy on each side. When the boat loaded up and the helmsman couldn't fight the force on the wheel he'd call 'down or up' and it took all 3 of us to move the wheel.

Those boats are built batshit strong.

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1 hour ago, Caca Cabeza said:

One night going past the confluence of Sea of Cortez and Pacific, we had the 2.2 kite up in 28-30 apparent trying to surf a Swan 47 (it won't). It took 3 'drivers' to stay under the kite. The helmsman and a 'power steering' guy on each side. When the boat loaded up and the helmsman couldn't fight the force on the wheel he'd call 'down or up' and it took all 3 of us to move the wheel.

Those boats are built batshit strong.

I had the full kite up on a 42 foot CCA boat (fin keel) in 35 gusting 45 apparent trying to surf (it did--12 knots) and we never broached and sailed like that with two on deck for 4 hours--one hand on the wheel the other with hot chocolate. OK two hands but still.

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1 hour ago, Caca Cabeza said:

One night going past the confluence of Sea of Cortez and Pacific, we had the 2.2 kite up in 28-30 apparent trying to surf a Swan 47 (it won't). It took 3 'drivers' to stay under the kite. The helmsman and a 'power steering' guy on each side. When the boat loaded up and the helmsman couldn't fight the force on the wheel he'd call 'down or up' and it took all 3 of us to move the wheel.

Those boats are built batshit strong.

So if you dropped the chute, poled out a jib,  you would probably do 11.5...maybe 12 knots?   So why load it up so and risk breakage etc?  

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15 minutes ago, sail69 said:

So if you dropped the chute, poled out a jib,  you would probably do 11.5...maybe 12 knots?   So why load it up so and risk breakage etc?  

Because we didn't know any better.

Downwind = spinnaker.  In any conditions (almost).  Simple as that.

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Always remember the motto of the IBBN - "We puts 'em up, God takes 'em down..."

(but never live by it, I suppose)

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15 hours ago, P_Wop said:

The old bastard is still at it, driving boats across oceans.  He should know better at his age.  "Umm, ahhh.."  "Umm... aaah.."

Chas would have to be around 70 y/o ?

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27 minutes ago, savoir said:

Chas would have to be around 70 y/o ?

That seems the right ballpark.  In his 30s in the 80s?

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On 5/15/2020 at 8:56 AM, sledracr said:

Yeah.  It's the "you get what you measure" paradigm.  Usually with a hodge-podge of unintended consequences blended in

And not just in sailing.  If you're ever in Amsterdam, notice how narrow all the houses are along the canals... and notice that every one of them has a big stout beam with a pulley hanging from it at the peak of the roof.

That's because, way back when, the king decided to tax people based on how much canal-frontage their house covered.  So people built houses as narrow as they possibly could.  To the point that there was no way to get furniture to the upper floors, without hoisting it up the outside and sliding it through a window.

So it goes.

Wasn't there some type of road tax in Great Britain based on stroke or bore that created some very strange engine designs?

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2 hours ago, sail69 said:

So if you dropped the chute, poled out a jib,  you would probably do 11.5...maybe 12 knots?   So why load it up so and risk breakage etc?  

It was the IOR era - doing that would have made you a pussy.

A chute was always up when off the wind - that's why things like Dacron chutes with wire luffs were invented.

Would you have had them stop rolling from rail to rail, crashing & burning etc. just so they could maintain the same speed without all that?

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1 hour ago, MarkFin said:

Wasn't there some type of road tax in Great Britain based on stroke or bore that created some very strange engine designs?

It was engine displacement - under & over 1 liter IIRC. Many Euro countries had similar post war tax regimes - hence the Bubble cars, FIAT 500's etc.

Britain also had some sort of tax rules that favoured "kit" cars which was how the Lotus Seven came to be. You bought all the parts in a box so it wasn't a "car" that you bought and it was taxed differently.

It was all predicated on the fact that every drop of gas had to be imported. That whole situation was also the driver of the Iran overthrow and the Suez crisis.

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8 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

It was the IOR era - doing that would have made you a pussy.

A chute was always up when off the wind - that's why things like Dacron chutes with wire luffs were invented.

Would you have had them stop rolling from rail to rail, crashing & burning etc. just so they could maintain the same speed without all that?

it was never "If" the kite, it was only "Which kite".   Masthead kite with a double reefed main?  It's a good look.  Not fast or stable, mind you, but a good look.

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12 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

It was the IOR era - doing that would have made you a pussy.

A chute was always up when off the wind - that's why things like Dacron chutes with wire luffs were invented.

Would you have had them stop rolling from rail to rail, crashing & burning etc. just so they could maintain the same speed without all that?

it's insane but that's correct.  We had a 2.2oz chute that was cut small and flat as a board.  We had it up once on a windy tighter reach, laid over on our ear, other boats were hootin at us.  We actually picked up speed when we took it down for the mark rounding, but we didn't tell anyone... 

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3 hours ago, sail69 said:

So if you dropped the chute, poled out a jib,  you would probably do 11.5...maybe 12 knots?   So why load it up so and risk breakage etc?  

Did one of the early Southport races in the early 80's on a Holland 2 tonner washed the dust off the windex 3 times,  once to windward,  twice to leeward.  And the second the leeward one was with a poled out #2.

Went back to the 2.2 kite after that headsail was no safer!

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4 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Because we didn't know any better.

Downwind = spinnaker.  In any conditions (almost).  Simple as that.

Oh how true that was.

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2 hours ago, TUBBY said:

Did one of the early Southport races in the early 80's on a Holland 2 tonner washed the dust off the windex 3 times,  once to windward,  twice to leeward.  And the second the leeward one was with a poled out #2.

Went back to the 2.2 kite after that headsail was no safer!

Poled out headsails were/are a pain in the ass with the spinnaker set-ups.  All the loads go in the wrong direction and getting the pole off the thing invites chaos.   

For a week going downwind in the trades with a telescoping pole or a long mast track, sure.  Round the buoys, not so much.

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I hate to tell you, but at Carter Offshore, or on my own, we did not have too many crashes and burn to go downwind under spinnaker. I.O.R could have been adjusted by changing some freeboard measurements and stability. To tax U.L.D.B a 10% arbitrary surcharge did not help either.

 

 

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lot of grumpy old timers in here all butthurt that people don't think their old raceboats are cool anymore. 

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On 5/18/2020 at 10:07 AM, Somebody Else said:

The reason for one color spinnakers is getting all the cloth from the same batch with the closest possible stretch characteristics across the entire sail.

Yeah - but for 99% of us clapped out hasbeens in our shitboxes (I'm not referring merely to 4.5 knots ones either....) it doesn't matter a damn

Oh and you have to watch each batch anyway as there can be flaws in the fabric

Also the best fabric these days only comes in red white and blue....... well it does down here anyhoo

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On 5/18/2020 at 12:56 PM, jack_sparrow said:

Park up at the beginning too?? 

I think we got a way ok.

but the park up when the sun came up, after a cool kite ride back in from the rock, was an arse burn for another day and a bit

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5 hours ago, Left Shift said:

it was never "If" the kite, it was only "Which kite".   Masthead kite with a double reefed main?  It's a good look.  Not fast or stable, mind you, but a good look.

When the kite you had up self destructed you put up the next biggest kite in the inventory and so on.  No pussying out w/ a jib on the pole until you ran out of kites.  That's the way it was when men was men.  No sea too rough, no muff too tough.

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9 hours ago, Caca Cabeza said:

One night going past the confluence of Sea of Cortez and Pacific, we had the 2.2 kite up in 28-30 apparent trying to surf a Swan 47 (it won't). It took 3 'drivers' to stay under the kite. The helmsman and a 'power steering' guy on each side. When the boat loaded up and the helmsman couldn't fight the force on the wheel he'd call 'down or up' and it took all 3 of us to move the wheel.

Those boats are built batshit strong.

2.2 oz kite!? yikes... 

and that Swan don't surf!!!! 

However, you could watch a movie and do your laundry on your off watch... 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Liquid said:

2.2 oz kite!? yikes... 

and that Swan don't surf!!!! 

However, you could watch a movie and do your laundry on your off watch... 

 

 

And the refer was usually well stocked on the lead mines so nice sit down dinner for the off watch with proper place settings.  

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I've not done a passage/delivery since the late 90's... 

I could so use one right now!!!

 

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3 minutes ago, zenmasterfred said:

And the refer was usually well stocked on the lead mines so nice sit down dinner for the off watch with proper place settings.  

an actual meal time...

Tinned up lasagnes made by the wives!

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I remember a South Straits of Georgia race on a Swan 65, we first to finished, we had beef bourgeon with a lovely wine for dinner, left a couple of spinnakers on the race course too.  What's not to like?  Back in those days on shorter races I didn't avail myself of the bunk but did enjoy the warm food before re-entering the front lines of the battle.

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24 minutes ago, Liquid said:

I've not done a passage/delivery since the late 90's... 

I could so use one right now!!!

 

Yes, just to get out of the site of land for a few weeks.  We have been doing 4 day sojourns locally, socially distancing and sheltering in place on our 42' of floating home but just heading out into the big water would be very healing.

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In a 27 foot half-tonner in the 75 Fastnet, we came round the rock, put up our only kite and cleated everything off.  Then four of us went below for a beef roast, veg and spuds, and a bottle of Beaujolais.  We left the nipper Johnny Lawrence alone on deck and steering, who kept bleating for his dinner.  "If there's any left. Just sail the bloody boat" we called up.

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3 hours ago, frozenhawaiian said:

lot of grumpy old timers in here all butthurt that people don't think their old raceboats are cool anymore. 

I would not want to trade my current 40 for an old mid 80s tonner.  Its not a particularly current boat, but from the board of a great designer.  Having it pick up on an 18 knot puff and plane away is not to be missed.  But to be honest, the only time it has ever done that with any regularity is when it was a bunch of old school IOR graduates on the strings.   Maybe its not so much that we are grumpy gramps, but rather, that we celebrate that there was something learned and treasured in all those lost weekends... 

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^ this.  Amen

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7 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

It was engine displacement - under & over 1 liter IIRC. Many Euro countries had similar post war tax regimes - hence the Bubble cars, FIAT 500's etc.

Britain also had some sort of tax rules that favoured "kit" cars which was how the Lotus Seven came to be. You bought all the parts in a box so it wasn't a "car" that you bought and it was taxed differently.

It was all predicated on the fact that every drop of gas had to be imported. That whole situation was also the driver of the Iran overthrow and the Suez crisis.

I think that all came later... bubble cars and kit cars were post-war but the tax regime described was pre-war (though its legacy was long, as expensive redesign and buyer education were needed to change the market) and based on a formula that strongly favoured long-stroke engines by calculating tax on bore. Introduced to favour domestic cars over imports but later caused grief for exports... The very long stroke engines were fine in Britain when roads were slow, hilly and winding because the low end torque made for easy driving but when the cars were cruised at "highway" speeds overseas the internal loads meant short lifetimes for the engines.

Cheers,

               W.

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4 hours ago, Liquid said:

an actual meal time...

Tinned up lasagnes made by the wives!

On a Swan 44 in the 84 Hobart race (which blew a bit on the nose,  something like 42 finishers from about 160 starts). 

Some of the things that will always stick in my mind include bashing to windward in 70'ish and a huge nasty sea and the cook screaming at people because he had found them drinking the cooking red,  "how do you expect me to make gravy when you've drunk the red?"  The cask of drinking red had exploded in a landing off a wave.

And to match this,  the next night, breeze down to the 50's as we cross the paddock, he & the outrageous Donny Mickleborough arguing over the recipe for a white sauce to go on the corned silverside!

The Hobart on that boat was considered a 3 roast trip.  I can't understand why i am always underwhelmed by freeze dried.

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6 hours ago, wal' said:

Yeah - but for 99% of us clapped out hasbeens in our shitboxes (I'm not referring merely to 4.5 knots ones either....) it doesn't matter a damn

Oh and you have to watch each batch anyway as there can be flaws in the fabric

Also the best fabric these days only comes in red white and blue....... well it does down here anyhoo

Croatia it is then.

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2 hours ago, TUBBY said:

On a Swan 44 in the 84 Hobart race (which blew a bit on the nose,  something like 42 finishers from about 160 starts). 

Some of the things that will always stick in my mind include bashing to windward in 70'ish and a huge nasty sea and the cook screaming at people because he had found them drinking the cooking red,  "how do you expect me to make gravy when you've drunk the red?"  The cask of drinking red had exploded in a landing off a wave.

And to match this,  the next night, breeze down to the 50's as we cross the paddock, he & the outrageous Donny Mickleborough arguing over the recipe for a white sauce to go on the corned silverside!

The Hobart on that boat was considered a 3 roast trip.  I can't understand why i am always underwhelmed by freeze dried.

Yeah I reckon that was my only Hobart non-finish...limped back to eden to be interviewed by the ABC ...Fletch has a VHS copy of it somewhere...Joint Venture with a star studded crew of ratbags...of course we were winning when the boat went all "water soluble".(wasn't everyone in eden that year?) ...9 of the 11 ring frames cracked and carbon poles being hacksawed and used with the cabin sole to hold the boat together as we limped back with life rafts and full safety gear ready to deploy .....good times...then the chartered aircraft from merimbula and the jettisoning of sick bags full of second hand, kidney filtered bundy & coke from the pilot's cockpit window over the still racing competition....and the boat being trailered back to melbourne via back roads without a travel permit...taking out most of the power & phone lines along the way......yeah. ....good times indeed...at least for a 23 year old livin the dream!!! So yeah - we're old buggers - but we've got stories that the young buggers can only dream about..and get all pissy pants about knowing they missed the pinnacle of ocean racing and now have to put up with a watered down version of nanny state entertainment.

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12 hours ago, frozenhawaiian said:

lot of grumpy old timers in here all butthurt that people don't think their old raceboats are cool anymore. 

You probably don't think this is cool either.

image.png.5ca4f0fa9d27277842fe3ce836c99b06.pngimage.png.3fc40eb4ee270dad54eeecf480dc9333.pngimage.png.881b6ed5004b8322521801016a53bbbd.png

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On 5/20/2020 at 4:06 AM, Left Shift said:

Are you counting time behind the wheel of minivans on the Interstates?  ;)

Probably spent less than 1/3 on interstates. Backtracked and criss crossed with no plan other than I had to be in Carribean in March for first regatta.

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56 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

You probably don't think this is cool either.

image.png.5ca4f0fa9d27277842fe3ce836c99b06.pngimage.png.3fc40eb4ee270dad54eeecf480dc9333.pngimage.png.881b6ed5004b8322521801016a53bbbd.png

Italiansmall2.jpg

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On 5/7/2020 at 10:44 PM, Left Shift said:

J-24s back in the day. 

Standing on the cooler and giving the front edge of the hatch a HARD shove when you heard the "Wave" call could definitely get you moving faster downhill.  

Now, if the four crew were all sitting on the rail in a tight pack and put their forward hand with locked elbow on the deck behind their buddy and simultaneously bumped forward on the "Wave" call, every seven seconds or so, then you could definitely punch through the chop going uphill.  A certain famous and very successful J-24 sailor was observed using those techniques multiple times when getting bow out was critical, or just on the whole damn leg.

So it must have been OK.

I crewed for a guy like that. I remember laying between two other guys in light air trying to keep the weight down. Borderline rule bending to me...

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3 hours ago, sailsail said:
On 5/7/2020 at 8:44 PM, Left Shift said:

J-24s back in the day. 

Standing on the cooler and giving the front edge of the hatch a HARD shove when you heard the "Wave" call could definitely get you moving faster downhill.  

Now, if the four crew were all sitting on the rail in a tight pack and put their forward hand with locked elbow on the deck behind their buddy and simultaneously bumped forward on the "Wave" call, every seven seconds or so, then you could definitely punch through the chop going uphill.  A certain famous and very successful J-24 sailor was observed using those techniques multiple times when getting bow out was critical, or just on the whole damn leg.

So it must have been OK.

I crewed for a guy like that. I remember laying between two other guys in light air trying to keep the weight down. Borderline rule bending to me...

Isn't that what dinghy racers call "ooching"?

 

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Just now, SloopJonB said:

Isn't that what dinghy racers call "ooching"?

 

It's what the rule book calls ooching.

42.2

Prohibited Actions

Without limiting the application of rule 42.1, these actions are prohibited:

  1. (a)  pumping: repeated fanning of any sail either by pulling in and releasing the sail or by vertical or athwartship body movement;

  2. (b)  rocking: repeated rolling of the boat, induced by

    1. (1)  body movement,

    2. (2)  repeated adjustment of the sails or centreboard, or

    (3) steering;

  3. (c)  ooching: sudden forward body movement, stopped abruptly;

  4. (d)  sculling: repeated movement of the helm that is either forceful or that propels the boat forward or prevents her from moving astern;

  5. (e)  repeated tacks or gybes unrelated to changes in the wind or to tactical considerations.

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15 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

I think that all came later... bubble cars and kit cars were post-war but the tax regime described was pre-war (though its legacy was long, as expensive redesign and buyer education were needed to change the market) and based on a formula that strongly favoured long-stroke engines by calculating tax on bore. Introduced to favour domestic cars over imports but later caused grief for exports... The very long stroke engines were fine in Britain when roads were slow, hilly and winding because the low end torque made for easy driving but when the cars were cruised at "highway" speeds overseas the internal loads meant short lifetimes for the engines.

Cheers,

               W.

Thanks WG,

I heard the story from my Dad that grew up in Kirkcaldy, Scotland.

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12 hours ago, CARBONINIT said:

IOR what a load of bollocks. Move on FFS.

Easy Maverick!

Nestalgia is comforting.... 

 

I've not sailed a leadmine in more than 20+ years because,

one day an I-14 ripped past the J120 I was suffering on in San Francisco Bay......

I was at the Richmond Yacht Club the next day!

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A good quote from today's Sydney Morning Herald (talking about the Last Dance)

Is it old farts who live in the past? Maybe, but stories are sport’s gift to imagination as much as to memory.

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