Meat Wad

IOR is dead for a reason

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WTF is it with all the nostalgia? Post a photo and in 1 sec, you can tell is is an IOR POS.

IOR is dead because people got tired of doing hull speed and rolling like crazy downwind.

I get the nostalgia, but WTF, you wanna attract new younger viewers? or You want to hang on to the dead.

 

Oh I forgot, no one can afford the new J boats so yea. Lets all buy old POS IOR boats.

 

 

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calm down mr. wad. it is a fascinating time period in sailing for a lot of us.

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More complicated than that.

Don't forget MHS (J Milgram's invention). That finally became IMS. The idea being to get away from type-forming (which was a "sin" of IOR {and all previous rating systems as well}).

It wasn't merely the behavior. I'd argue that was actually beside the point--except on the West coast ("sleds" which , btw, were rated in IOR and cleaned up *under* IOR!)

Ultimately IMS replaced IOR (and then got stupid in much the same dynamic!--good bye IMS!). At first, IMS was remarkable. Old CCA boats had a second life. But then the smart clever designers figured out what part of the rule was lacking in capturing performance (dynamic behavior) and that led, through combination of factors, to the aforementioned death spiral of rule changes, costs, rule changes, owner's fed up, then something "better" came along...

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MHS was mostly George Hazen wasn't it?

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Well, it seems that SA like Facebook is full of that generation that made things possible for this generation. So just suck it up and say thanks. 

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6 minutes ago, George Hackett said:

Well, it seems that SA like Facebook is full of that generation that made things possible for this generation. So just suck it up and say thanks. 

No, everything that is wrong in the world is their fault.

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<long answer>

I think you have the wrong end of the stick, old chap.  Think about the owners and crews, not the boats.

Admiral's Cup, for example.  When else could you have 600+ mostly brand new 39 to 53 foot race boats battling it out all across the world every 2 years to be selected as one of their nation's 3-boat team?  57 offshore racing boats were sent to Cowes from everywhere, Japan, Australia, Argentina, USA, Canada, New Guinea, you name it, sailed by about 800 mostly amateur sailors, inshore and offshore.  Boats designed by dozens of different naval architects, yet all to a common rule.  And designed to go offshore, and frequently delivered home afterwards across an ocean.

If you think IOR boats were pigs to sail downwind, try the metre classes.  Lovely upwind (like most IOR boats) but they reach a terminal velocity downhill and thereafter get plenty of water on deck if it's windy.  Look at any of the 1987 Perth videos.

Yet almost every surviving 12-metre has been restored and races regularly.  8-metres, 6-metres and 5.5s have very competitive national and world championships, many new boats are being built to multiple designs, and sailed mostly by amateur sailors.  And the rule is mostly 40 years older than the IOR.  Pretty boats for sure, but a real handful to sail well, just like their later cousins.

It's not about the rule.

It was simply something that every weekend warrior could get out and do, and get some hard sailing in, round the cans and offshore.  Tens of thousands of sailors would be out on the water every weekend, worldwide, and if they were good and willing, could move up into the bigger boats, and eventually Admiral's Cuip.  We used to get 50 one-tonners at the Worlds, and 50 half-tonners for class 4 in Cowes Week, most of whom went on to do the Fastnet afterwards.  I did my first one in a half-tonner, a 27-footer.

Stop complaining.  It's part of the history that's continued into our modern sport, and has largely enabled it.

</long answer>

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1 hour ago, bgytr said:

MHS was mostly George Hazen wasn't it?

In terms of driving it forward that is surely the case. He was a PhD candidate right?

Do I have everything confused (again!)?

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I was at Cowes week only once. Early 90s after sailing transatlantic. That was a *phenomenal* sailing situation! Never seen anything like it before or since! The Irish Admiral's cupper went on the bricks cutting it close in one race (I think around Isle of Wight). That was at the end of the IOR period, but still...I even hitched a ride as spin trimmer on a J24 one day and saw over 13 knots. I guess they fit right into the Solent waves. (And the annoying "and three two one WAVE!" guy on that boat...never heard THAT being done before or since!)

I loved the fact that there were a good number of wooden IOR boats--very competitive ones at that--and even some that were amateur built and did well. That is just not going to happen in the current arrangement...

You can build a carbon IC by yourself (but frankly better to buy one from Chris Maas haha). But to build your own 30 foot modern not offshore "offshore" racer? Roight. Uh-huh.

 

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

No, everything that is wrong in the world is their fault.

Yes, it is our fault. And it is our faults that have made things better. So what faults will you make to make things better for the next generation? 

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Whats IOR?

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5 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I was at Cowes week only once. Early 90s after sailing transatlantic. That was a *phenomenal* sailing situation! Never seen anything like it before or since! The Irish Admiral's cupper went on the bricks cutting it close in one race (I think around Isle of Wight). That was at the end of the IOR period, but still...I even hitched a ride as spin trimmer on a J24 one day and saw over 13 knots. I guess they fit right into the Solent waves. (And the annoying "and three two one WAVE!" guy on that boat...never heard THAT being done before or since!)

I loved the fact that there were a good number of wooden IOR boats--very competitive ones at that--and even some that were amateur built and did well. That is just not going to happen in the current arrangement...

You can build a carbon IC by yourself (but frankly better to buy one from Chris Maas haha). But to build your own 30 foot modern not offshore "offshore" racer? Roight. Uh-huh.

 

You mean after that people started protesting "that guy (and his elk)" for flagrant ooching and pumping???

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1 minute ago, Left Shift said:

You mean after that people started protesting "that guy (and his elk)" for flagrant ooching and pumping???

I think he was just helping his (seemingly) blind helmsman buddy to steer.

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18 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I think he was just helping his (seemingly) blind helmsman buddy to steer.

J-24s back in the day. 

Standing on the cooler and giving the front edge of the hatch a HARD shove when you heard the "Wave" call could definitely get you moving faster downhill.  

Now, if the four crew were all sitting on the rail in a tight pack and put their forward hand with locked elbow on the deck behind their buddy and simultaneously bumped forward on the "Wave" call, every seven seconds or so, then you could definitely punch through the chop going uphill.  A certain famous and very successful J-24 sailor was observed using those techniques multiple times when getting bow out was critical, or just on the whole damn leg.

So it must have been OK.

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1 hour ago, George Hackett said:

Well, it seems that SA like Facebook is full of that generation that made things possible for this generation. So just suck it up and say thanks. 

Thank you deeply, for sailing the heavy, slow and obscenely unnatractive shit heaps so I don't have to.

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For my sins, I have been sailing for over 60 years now and have raced under IOR,  IMS, JOG, Channel Handicap, IRC, JOG, Performance Handicapping and everything else that was ever promoted. Inshore, Offshore, dinghies and keel boats both plain and radical and plenty of One-Designs too.

Without question, the very best, closest, most competitive and most enjoyable yacht racing I ever did was IOR Level Rating racing. I know I can't impart that experience to those who have come along later; you had to be there. Those who were there know what I mean. 

 

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2 hours ago, P_Wop said:

I think you have the wrong end of the stick, old chap.  Think about the owners and crews, not the boats.

^this

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2 minutes ago, SPORTSCAR said:

 Those who were there know what I mean. 

We do!

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42 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

Thank you deeply, for sailing the heavy, slow and obscenely unnatractive shit heaps so I don't have to.

Your taste is all in your mouth.

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3 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

 

Oh I forgot, no one can afford the new J boats so yea. Lets all buy old POS IOR boats.

 

 

Because 'the new J Boats' are the epitome of modern designs or what? Did I miss something? 

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21 minutes ago, SPORTSCAR said:

For my sins, I have been sailing for over 60 years now and have raced under IOR,  IMS, JOG, Channel Handicap, IRC, JOG, Performance Handicapping and everything else that was ever promoted. Inshore, Offshore, dinghies and keel boats both plain and radical and plenty of One-Designs too.

Without question, the very best, closest, most competitive and most enjoyable yacht racing I ever did was IOR Level Rating racing. I know I can't impart that experience to those who have come along later; you had to be there. Those who were there know what I mean. 

 

Exactly what he said!

I have owned JOG boats, IOR 1/2 ton (x2), IRC and IMS based boats and plenty of one designs.

JOG (MORC) racing was effectively level rating as everyone rated around 18 feet (most 1/4 tonners and the J 24 was a bit higher)

IOR 1/2 ton , enough said

I have raced IOR 1 ton both 27.5 and 30.5 raters

Sure my 38 is a shit lot faster than an old 37 foot 27.5 rater and much nicer to sail but does not deliver the closeness of level rating regattas of old.

The problem with IRC level rating (ie lets take 1.100) is that different boats at that rating are very strong on some conditions and courses so the race is really decided by the course and wind strength.

Over a series you hopefully get a range but you don't get the closeness of IOR, level rating, sure the boats where type formed more but that was the point.

And a funny thing when we have tried to arrange a 1.100 Irc level rating regatta no body wanted to play even though we have almost 20 boats rating between 1.075 and 1.14 in the local area

 

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And of course we could afford to buy them then!

Phil Y can correct me but from memory the JOG (MORC) Nationals in Sydney in 1979 we had 63 entries.

Even our state titles had in excess of 25 boats back then

Never been seen since.

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4 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

IOR is dead because people got tired of doing hull speed and rolling like crazy downwind.

Speed is relative so irelevant and comparing then to steering downhill something that didn't exist until the future arrived, again irelevant.

If I had to choose between racing around the orange today on a large poled Rater OR a modern sprited V65, I would go for the 40 year old design. Older boats maybe more wipe-outs, but doing them in the teens not the twenties is a big difference. Bit of give in everything so no carbon inspired explosions when things break.

The 65 slicker yes and easier to drive but is the wettest and most uncomfortable blue water race boat ever launched. After one more orange round it won't be saved or seen again, let alone lovingly restored. Their only racing left is the trip to landfill.

An IMOCA 60 ...well that's a different story.

It's all relative.

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1 hour ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

Thank you deeply, for sailing the heavy, slow and obscenely unnatractive shit heaps so I don't have to.

You are welcome. It was a blast! 

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5 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

WTF is it with all the nostalgia? Post a photo and in 1 sec, you can tell is is an IOR POS.

IOR is dead because people got tired of doing hull speed and rolling like crazy downwind.

I get the nostalgia, but WTF, you wanna attract new younger viewers? or You want to hang on to the dead.

 

Oh I forgot, no one can afford the new J boats so yea. Lets all buy old POS IOR boats.

 

 

It just tells the age of the posters here in quarantaine-time. 

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Everybody had to know their jobs to make it work right back then! Now it's extra bodies just to rail meat and haul in asym kites...

There was an overall essence of actually crewing and being proud to do it, without $1K/day! 

Simpler times...

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Just now, savoir said:

Plus you could race triangles in those days.

So, you remember what a reach is...

Olympic gold cup courses!

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2 hours ago, Liquid said:

Everybody had to know their jobs to make it work right back then! Now it's extra bodies just to rail meat and haul in asym kites...

There was an overall essence of actually crewing and being proud to do it, without $1K/day! 

Simpler times...

Funny that back in the day halfton had 5 crew and now the classrules says you can take 7. 

I've sailed one with 5 and gybing in wind with the runners, you can really use a 6th crew only for the runners. 

But all the rolling downwind, never really noticed that. The first one I sailed on, had nice flats at the back and when surfing off a wave, the boat was really stable. Maybe a bigger kite and newer main and the boat was a monster. Will see with the new owner. Was a gahinet formule 9. 

Now on a farr 54. The helm is working hard (still the skeg type rudder) but playing with the vang and the spi-sheet we manage to catch most of the shit. And we still are doing well, compared to the heavy rebuild halftonners

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Hell I enjoyed the IOR boats they were a lot of fun.Good friends and good racing.

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Like I have posted 1,000 times, the boats in that era got more people out racing in one year than we'll ever see again in five years combined. Racing is about PEOPLE and nothing before or since did the job like they did.

Re meter boats - Dragons are pretty much like them and the worst IOR boat is a sled compared to those things. Running hard downwind in a Dragon is like balancing on one foot trying not to spill a tray of drinks on a roller coaster.

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The appeal of IOR was new boats beat older boats, so new boats were showing up each year in droves.

They were quirky to sail, rock and roll to say the least, bloopers, took a lot of hands, no one was just rail meat.

Each new boat had found another loophole in the rule and took advantage of it.

Ultimately the design made boats unstable to sail, which was rewarded with a better rating.

What ended it was the 1979 Fastnet Race: 15 dead, 75 boats capsized, 24 boats abandoned, and 5 boats sank.

No one wanted to run a race like that ever again to repeat those results.

Yes, MHS was invented whose goal was to build stable boats with that goal achieve.

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10 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

WTF is it with all the nostalgia? Post a photo and in 1 sec, you can tell is is an IOR POS.

IOR is dead because people got tired of doing hull speed and rolling like crazy downwind.

I get the nostalgia, but WTF, you wanna attract new younger viewers? or You want to hang on to the dead.

 

Oh I forgot, no one can afford the new J boats so yea. Lets all buy old POS IOR boats.

 

 

Perhaps show us your boat then 

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"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there" L.P.Hartley The Go-Between.

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7 hours ago, Matagi said:

Because 'the new J Boats' are the epitome of modern designs or what? Did I miss something? 

naa if you want the epitome of modern design you pay 5 times the price of a new J boat.

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39 minutes ago, ROADKILL666 said:

Hell I enjoyed the IOR boats they were a lot of fun.Good friends and good racing.

IOR is independent of the good friends and good racing.  IOR by circumstance just happened to be the tool of the time.  If there had been another tool of the moment (the 70s) there still would have been good friends and racing, just different boats.  I raced back in those days and loved the racing and classes just like most, but the boats were friggin terrible, unless it was upwind in 5-12 knots, then it was pretty dern good.

There also was less science to yacht design back then, and more art.  Lots of yacht designers didn't have any real engineering education, and there was a lot of sticking to conventional wisdom, which is often collective ignorance.

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Re meter boats - Dragons are pretty much like them and the worst IOR boat is a sled compared to those things. Running hard downwind in a Dragon is like balancing on one foot trying not to spill a tray of drinks on a roller coaster.

I don’t think so. If you look at sa/d and ballast ratio, dragons are more like square meter boats/skerry cruisers.  Much lighter and more agile than the meter hogs. Plus, the huuuuge barndoor rudder makes them turn on a dime if you have to. Today’s Dragons, albeit shorter and with less sail area, will sail circles around a 5.5 ... What makes them a bit of a handful ddw is the fact that their freeboard has twice the height of one water molecule. But with the big rudder and the small chute, it usually can be managed. 

 

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1 minute ago, 10thTonner said:

I don’t think so. If you look at sa/d and ballast ratio, dragons are more like square meter boats/skerry cruisers.  Much lighter and more agile than the meter hogs. Plus, the huuuuge barndoor rudder makes them turn on a dime if you have to. Today’s Dragons, albeit shorter and with less sail area, will sail circles around a 5.5 ... What makes them a bit of a handful ddw is the fact that their freeboard has twice the height of one water molecule.  

 

Me: Running hard under chute on a cold rainy day in Scotland, noting the freezing water, no safety gear other than crappy old lifejackets, and no other boats out:

"This is a handful. What happens if I let her broach?"

The owner: "She'll sink like a stone" :o:o Maybe 12 Meter boats are even worse, but at least they won't sink if you screw up (I think?).

 

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1 minute ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Me: Running hard under chute on a cold rainy day in Scotland, noting the freezing water, no safety gear other than crappy old lifejackets, and no other boats out:

"This is a handful. What happens if I let her broach?"

The owner: "She'll sink like a stone"

 

 

MAN! That must have been fun! I’m jealous. 

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3 minutes ago, 10thTonner said:

MAN! That must have been fun! I’m jealous. 

The upwind part was better. I had to get a boat I had never sailed before and had no engine out of a crowded harbor under sail and it isn't like a wooden Dragon is some old shitbox you can bounce off of things either. The boat tracked upwind like a slotcar and turned on a dime. THAT was fun :D

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26 minutes ago, 10thTonner said:

I don’t think so. If you look at sa/d and ballast ratio, dragons are more like square meter boats/skerry cruisers.  Much lighter and more agile than the meter hogs. Plus, the huuuuge barndoor rudder makes them turn on a dime if you have to. Today’s Dragons, albeit shorter and with less sail area, will sail circles around a 5.5 ... What makes them a bit of a handful ddw is the fact that their freeboard has twice the height of one water molecule. But with the big rudder and the small chute, it usually can be managed. 

 

Are you implying a Dragon is faster than a 6mR?

Not even close.

Local Dragons rate +200 and are in the same Div as SJ 24s.  Older 6 mR rate in the 120s (which is a gift IMO) since new ones are in the 105 range and aren't a whole bunch quicker than a well prepped oldie.

I used to sail on an older 6mR and in under 5 kts we could dust what at the time was a modern IOR 2T.  Fortunately we had a lot of sub 5 kt racing in the area.   6mR are almost untouchable in the light stuff.  Ask anyone who has done the Wednesday Night races out of RVYC.

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IOR/Admirals Cup/SORC was awesome because it was near the pinnacle of the sailing world at the time and felt attainable.  Highest level of racing in the world and a lot of people could see the pictures in the magazines and say "I could do that".  Same with America's Cup for the most part.  All of it translated pretty directly to things you did on Wednesday nights. That doesn't exist anymore. 

Not only are the modern grand prix level stuff for monohulls fractured between the TP52s, the RC44, IC37s and what not; now you have the multis with all their circuits and such.  And don't get me started on the America's Cup in which the actual sailing experience is damn near unattainable for 99.99% of us out there.

So yeah, glorifying the IOR era is real for a lot of people.  I don't think anyone is saying its was better sailing, but it probably was a better time.

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22 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Me: Running hard under chute on a cold rainy day in Scotland, noting the freezing water, no safety gear other than crappy old lifejackets, and no other boats out:

"This is a handful. What happens if I let her broach?"

The owner: "She'll sink like a stone" :o:o Maybe 12 Meter boats are even worse, but at least they won't sink if you screw up (I think?).

 

Remind me about my experience with dragons. But it was summer and during the belgian championship in 2014 i think. 

Weather suddenly become nasty and we as the youth team and our first sailing together with that boat. The electric pump could not keep up, so pumping and keeping your weight out was a challenge. 

I was soaking wet as bowman. Every wave hit me, the boat goes thru the wave.  The steering guy was complaining about the rain and that his hood wasn't staying on his head. 

But fun to sail. And to dock, eazy, the way they steer. Only stressing to not hit anything with somebody else his expensif boat. 

Was a really nice regatta, only a shame for the dragonclass non of us stick around. 

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38 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Me: Running hard under chute on a cold rainy day in Scotland, noting the freezing water, no safety gear other than crappy old lifejackets, and no other boats out:

"This is a handful. What happens if I let her broach?"

The owner: "She'll sink like a stone" :o:o Maybe 12 Meter boats are even worse, but at least they won't sink if you screw up (I think?).

 

Ya think?

 

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9 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Ya think?

Except One Australia wasn't a 12mR.

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:( Nevermind.

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40 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

Are you implying a Dragon is faster than a 6mR?

No, but a 5.5 B) 

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41 minutes ago, bloodshot said:

Not only are the modern grand prix level stuff for monohulls fractured between the TP52s, the RC44, IC37s and what not; now you have the multis with all their circuits and such.  And don't get me started on the America's Cup in which the actual sailing experience is damn near unattainable for 99.99% of us out there.

the actual AC sailing experience, these days, is irrelevant to 99.99% of us.  Sure, it's fun to watch, just like NASCAR is, but... it has virtually no relationship to the kind of sailing most of us do.

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I think of the Swedish Vasa whenever IOR nostalgia is dredged up. 

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What interests me is the racer/cruisers that came out of the IOR era and aged gracefully. Certain designers can draw a good looking boat influenced by or catering to any rule. Guys like Gary Mull and German Frers...some of their boats drawn from that era still have a lot of sex appeal, at least to me.

There's a cold molded Davidson design that the panel over on CA are currently salivating over. A lot of the C&C 37s, 40s, 41s, 43s and 44s(either during the era or the residual aftermath) still look great to me, and throwing a furling headsail and a dodger onto them makes them highly serviceable cruisers or day sailors, just as long as you remember to chuck the spinnaker pole on the lawn before leaving the dock. 

 

 

 

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Whomever did the stability calculations for the Vasa royally screwed up and IOR boats were squirrely, but keels coming right off the boat seems to be a 21st century invention.

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12 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

Thank you deeply, for sailing the heavy, slow and obscenely unnatractive shit heaps so I don't have to.

the later boats were no such thing. i sailed the trick n/m 41 reliance (dc's old boat)and it was an incredibly pretty thing, wicked fast in the light and we simply won everything with that boat.

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15 hours ago, See Level said:

quote-those-who-cannot-remember-the-past-are-condemned-to-repeat-it-george-santayana-25-87-01.jpg

"Some races are obviously superior to others. A more thorough adjustment to the conditions of existence has given their spirit victory, scope, and a relative stability. It is therefore the greatest importance not to obscure this superiority by intermarriage with inferior stock..."  -- George Santayana

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40 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Whomever did the stability calculations for the Vasa royally screwed up and IOR boats were squirrely, but keels coming right off the boat seems to be a 21st century invention.

An interesting article on the (pdf download) Vasa failures.

Certainly stability calculations were imperfect. However the stability tests were conclusive. A conclusive failure that was then ignored:

"Captain Hannson (the ship’s captain) and a skeleton crew conducted a stability test in the presence of Admiral Fleming during outfitting of the Vasa. The “lurch” test consisted of having 30 men run from side to side amidship. After three traversals by the men, the test was halted because the ship was rocking so violently it was obvious it would capsize if the test were not halted. The ship could not be stabilized because there was no room to add ballast under the hold’s floorboards. In any case, the additional weight would have placed the lower-deck gun portals near or below the ship’s waterline. ... the Vasa was launched with known stability problems"

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Basically the same story with the extreme IOR or general state of experimental keel fabrication/failure. 
 

ppl with prudence and expertise say one thing. Yes men and ppl with $$$ says no no keep pushing. 
 

it fails. 
 

WHO COULD HAVE FORESEEN THIS

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Diminishing returns and high stakes poker having a one off built for ever increasing dollars only to find it was not the boat that year and very little value in resale...never the less it was   wonderful to be part of for literally 1,000's of sailors many making a living from it too boot... 

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56 minutes ago, KC375 said:

An interesting article on the (pdf download) Vasa failures.

Certainly stability calculations were imperfect. However the stability tests were conclusive. A conclusive failure that was then ignored:

"Captain Hannson (the ship’s captain) and a skeleton crew conducted a stability test in the presence of Admiral Fleming during outfitting of the Vasa. The “lurch” test consisted of having 30 men run from side to side amidship. After three traversals by the men, the test was halted because the ship was rocking so violently it was obvious it would capsize if the test were not halted. The ship could not be stabilized because there was no room to add ballast under the hold’s floorboards. In any case, the additional weight would have placed the lower-deck gun portals near or below the ship’s waterline. ... the Vasa was launched with known stability problems"

 

So those guys eventually migrated over to Boeing to ignore problems yet again after interning at Chernobyl :rolleyes:

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2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

So those guys eventually migrated over to Boeing to ignore problems yet again after interning at Chernobyl :rolleyes:

5 o'clock somewhere it seems 

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21 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

So those guys eventually migrated over to Boeing to ignore problems yet again after interning at Chernobyl :rolleyes:

 

17 minutes ago, BravoBravo said:

5 o'clock somewhere it seems 

The article tries to draw lessons learned from the Vassa and apply them / show parallel with modern projects - notably software development.

Other than language and dress, those of us that have tried to get 21st century projects done might have been surprisingly at home in 17th century Stockholm:

  • Change orders inconsistent with what had already been built (build started as 108” ship, after timbers cut scale increased with keel laid for 111’ ship then built to 135’) and with no revision to existing work.
  • Untried designs never executed / tested before combined with largest project scope every tried and no documentation or coordination mechanisms.
  • Key client not directly involved and physically distant from project.
  • Extreme time pressure applied to build process with significant penalty for delay despite changing requirements (consequence of delay not just losing job but maybe losing head from shoulders)
  • Embellishments (carvings, gilding, painting) given priority when core requirements not yet satisfied (guns so badly cast they might have exploded if ever used).
  • Change in leadership mid project (shipwright died halfway through).
  • Testing showed not fit for purpose (lurch test above) but test results not communicated to key decision makers / ignored.

So basically your typical large scale software project.

 

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17 hours ago, P_Wop said:

<long answer>

I think you have the wrong end of the stick, old chap.  Think about the owners and crews, not the boats.

Admiral's Cup, for example.  When else could you have 600+ mostly brand new 39 to 53 foot race boats battling it out all across the world every 2 years to be selected as one of their nation's 3-boat team?  57 offshore racing boats were sent to Cowes from everywhere, Japan, Australia, Argentina, USA, Canada, New Guinea, you name it, sailed by about 800 mostly amateur sailors, inshore and offshore.  Boats designed by dozens of different naval architects, yet all to a common rule.  And designed to go offshore, and frequently delivered home afterwards across an ocean.

If you think IOR boats were pigs to sail downwind, try the metre classes.  Lovely upwind (like most IOR boats) but they reach a terminal velocity downhill and thereafter get plenty of water on deck if it's windy.  Look at any of the 1987 Perth videos.

Yet almost every surviving 12-metre has been restored and races regularly.  8-metres, 6-metres and 5.5s have very competitive national and world championships, many new boats are being built to multiple designs, and sailed mostly by amateur sailors.  And the rule is mostly 40 years older than the IOR.  Pretty boats for sure, but a real handful to sail well, just like their later cousins.

It's not about the rule.

It was simply something that every weekend warrior could get out and do, and get some hard sailing in, round the cans and offshore.  Tens of thousands of sailors would be out on the water every weekend, worldwide, and if they were good and willing, could move up into the bigger boats, and eventually Admiral's Cuip.  We used to get 50 one-tonners at the Worlds, and 50 half-tonners for class 4 in Cowes Week, most of whom went on to do the Fastnet afterwards.  I did my first one in a half-tonner, a 27-footer.

Stop complaining.  It's part of the history that's continued into our modern sport, and has largely enabled it.

</long answer>

First, I was not complaining, merely asking what is up with all the nostalgia, so I used some colorful words, the Ed does it all the time.

Second, I raced on many of those old boats too. I was in my 20's when the SDYC "Yachting Cup" was the "Ton Cup" and saw many of the one off that became production. I even sailed on a Chance 1 ton that was so narrow it was the a death roll machine. 
I was always amazed at the 1/4 class and all the weird designs that were produced year after year. Most were just that One Off and then tossed off.

Racing was different back then and no one has forgotten the past. but why live it over and over. No one ever says, I wish I had my 486dx back because it was the bomb in 1991, yes I built one.

Here at Long Beach Race week in the 80's, when it was more than a weekend affair. I can be seen (blue shorts) in the cockpit Trimming something (way before my injury) with friend, Bill Daffron skippering some old Peterson (37'....42) "Kayak".  We are either coming into the leeward mark, as you can see a few boats in the background or we just rounded and set at the weather mark (can't remember ). Yes it was fun but we moved on and had way more fun. Bill recently sold his Farr 30 "Menace" and I'm sure if he had a choice the Farr is way more fun to race. Just look how many it took to race that thing, and there are more forward.

Been there, done that.

2002760841_Kayakdaffron.jpg.2ef7dd81cd59e0ced5da9a7cdd059247.jpg

 

Also I helped run some Professional Windsurfing events. But that isn't really sailing is it.

20200417_203903.thumb.jpg.c33718adab895485b9c692e0b7468c44.jpg

20200417_203815.thumb.jpg.3dafceb9aa97cf6c4aff88f3fa8d1b51.jpg

 

 

12 hours ago, Liquid said:

Everybody had to know their jobs to make it work right back then! Now it's extra bodies just to rail meat and haul in asym kites...

There was an overall essence of actually crewing and being proud to do it, without $1K/day! 

Simpler times...

Everybody still has to know their job. You make it sound like we are all a bunch of sailing Narcissists now.

 

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30 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

 

Everybody still has to know their job. You make it sound like we are all a bunch of sailing Narcissists now.

Zactly. Try skiff jibing a monster assy on a 30+ ft sports yacht. Or do a windward drop. Or hey, just fucking SET the damn thing without broaching, old man, and I'll buy you a dark 'n' stormy.

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2 hours ago, KC375 said:

 

The article tries to draw lessons learned from the Vassa and apply them / show parallel with modern projects - notably software development.

Other than language and dress, those of us that have tried to get 21st century projects done might have been surprisingly at home in 17th century Stockholm:

  • Change orders inconsistent with what had already been built (build started as 108” ship, after timbers cut scale increased with keel laid for 111’ ship then built to 135’) and with no revision to existing work.
  • Untried designs never executed / tested before combined with largest project scope every tried and no documentation or coordination mechanisms.
  • Key client not directly involved and physically distant from project.
  • Extreme time pressure applied to build process with significant penalty for delay despite changing requirements (consequence of delay not just losing job but maybe losing head from shoulders)
  • Embellishments (carvings, gilding, painting) given priority when core requirements not yet satisfied (guns so badly cast they might have exploded if ever used).
  • Change in leadership mid project (shipwright died halfway through).
  • Testing showed not fit for purpose (lurch test above) but test results not communicated to key decision makers / ignored.

So basically your typical large scale software project.

 

'Nuff said.

 

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1 hour ago, Meat Wad said:

First, I was not complaining, merely asking what is up with all the nostalgia,

Been there, done that.

Think of it like this;

image.png.536bb77dc4019aa442f2da9272ad5c4e.png

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17 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

For my sins, I have been sailing for over 60 years now and have raced under IOR,  IMS, JOG, Channel Handicap, IRC, JOG, Performance Handicapping and everything else that was ever promoted. Inshore, Offshore, dinghies and keel boats both plain and radical and plenty of One-Designs too.

Without question, the very best, closest, most competitive and most enjoyable yacht racing I ever did was IOR Level Rating racing. I know I can't impart that experience to those who have come along later; you had to be there. Those who were there know what I mean. 

 

Why are people searching barns & corners of boatyards for old quarter ton era boats then spending a shed load of money On them.? 30+ boats ar the Quarter Ton Cup Because it just about the most fun per £,€,¥ or $ you can legally have on the water

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44 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Why are people searching barns & corners of boatyards for old quarter ton era boats then spending a shed load of money On them.? 30+ boats ar the Quarter Ton Cup Because it just about the most fun per £,€,¥ or $ you can legally have on the water

Because they are old and want to relive their youth again. 

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49 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Why are people searching barns & corners of boatyards for old quarter ton era boats then spending a shed load of money On them.? 30+ boats ar the Quarter Ton Cup Because it just about the most fun per £,€,¥ or $ you can legally have on the water

 

4 minutes ago, gewoon ik said:

Because they are old and want to relive their youth again. 

Why are people restoring Dorade, Marilee, and scores of other classic wooden boats and racing them offshore as well as inshore?

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Because they are a thing of beauty. 

Have you seen some of the restored halftonners? Not really a thing of beauty. Just a irc-optimised racer. 

But it is fun racing, or will be hopefully in 2021

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close racing is fun racing no matter how fast, its all relative. A little problem with IOR is that bad manners were ignored in the pursuit of rule advantage. 

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Exactly.  Because they need sit-down-on-the-inside boats.  Not enough agility for anything modern.  Not close to enough money to get involved in weigh-your-wallet and pay-the-pro campaigns like M32 or 40'ers or heaven-help-us TP52s.

It's the same reason that 6 meters won't die.  

The last time most of these guys were on the cutting edge, they were trimming their lawn.

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11 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

..What ended it was the 1979 Fastnet Race: 15 dead, 75 boats capsized, 24 boats abandoned, and 5 boats sank.

No one wanted to run a race like that ever again to repeat those results.

Yes, MHS was invented whose goal was to build stable boats with that goal achieve.

What a load of fucking shit. 

IOR didn't send boats to the bottom in the 79 Fastnet and nor did the 79 Fasnet end IOR.

The Irish Sea and a winter style depression occuring in summer that hovered abnormally over the race course did that. There were some stability issues back then but quickly fixed. IMS design would fair little better.

Try IMS designs in 98 Hobart also a weather abnormalitiy. Also some other similarities to Fastnet such as nothing in the forecast at the start and also some things occured late. For instance a critical Fasnet weather update wasn't broadcast until after the normal shipping forecast so missed.

I've read some shit before but that takes the cake. 

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55 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

 

Why are people restoring Dorade, Marilee, and scores of other classic wooden boats and racing them offshore as well as inshore?

There’s an element of survivor’s bias - exceptional boats survive and give the illusion that the past was consistently good. 
 

plus it is easier on the body than trying to compete with young French guys in IRC. 

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IOR gave very good close racing. The problem was that it was a type forming rule, and with the parameters used it formed an undesirable type. What I never understood was that no  attempt was made to modify the rule to form a more wholesome boat. The close racing could have been kept and a highly functioning grand Prix rule saved. Instead the baby was thrown out with the bathwater and a move was made to the not fit for purpose IMS. Unfortunately this was never intended for the kind of scrutiny and exploitation that the IOR had evolved to deal with and consequently it failed.

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3 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

First, I was not complaining, merely asking what is up with all the nostalgia, so I used some colorful words, the Ed does it all the time.

Second, I raced on many of those old boats too. I was in my 20's when the SDYC "Yachting Cup" was the "Ton Cup" and saw many of the one off that became production. I even sailed on a Chance 1 ton that was so narrow it was the a death roll machine. 
I was always amazed at the 1/4 class and all the weird designs that were produced year after year. Most were just that One Off and then tossed off.

Racing was different back then and no one has forgotten the past. but why live it over and over. No one ever says, I wish I had my 486dx back because it was the bomb in 1991, yes I built one.

Here at Long Beach Race week in the 80's, when it was more than a weekend affair. I can be seen (blue shorts) in the cockpit Trimming something (way before my injury) with friend, Bill Daffron skippering some old Peterson (37'....42) "Kayak".  We are either coming into the leeward mark, as you can see a few boats in the background or we just rounded and set at the weather mark (can't remember ). Yes it was fun but we moved on and had way more fun. Bill recently sold his Farr 30 "Menace" and I'm sure if he had a choice the Farr is way more fun to race. Just look how many it took to race that thing, and there are more forward.

Been there, done that.

2002760841_Kayakdaffron.jpg.2ef7dd81cd59e0ced5da9a7cdd059247.jpg

 

Also I helped run some Professional Windsurfing events. But that isn't really sailing is it.

20200417_203903.thumb.jpg.c33718adab895485b9c692e0b7468c44.jpg

20200417_203815.thumb.jpg.3dafceb9aa97cf6c4aff88f3fa8d1b51.jpg

 

Everybody still has to know their job. You make it sound like we are all a bunch of sailing Narcissists now.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean it that way...

I really enjoyed the corinthian spirit of sailing during the 70s and 80s! I practically lived at my yacht club 7 days a week for 12 weeks every summer thru my teen years! 

Flying a symmetrical kite requires more attention and control lines than an asymm! 

Yet today, you still need the same number of people to pull on less control lines for the same boat length? If you're not a line puller or parked in the back of the boat, you're kite retrievers and rail meat.... What does a 'floater' do?

Not so much when you have to coordinate the up fucker, down fucker, in fuckers, out fuckers, lazy sheets, lazy guys and too many halyards, etc... Having inexperienced crew could be scary as a bowman back then and now for any symm boat!

I can't remember but I think we were 8 or 10 on a J35? def 10 on the C&C 40....... what's a TP52 crew now, only 12?

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50 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

What a load of fucking shit. 

IOR didn't send boats to the bottom in the 79 Fastnet and nor did the 79 Fasnet end IOR.

The Irish Sea and a winter style depression occuring in summer that hovered abnormally over the race course did that. There were some stability issues back then but quickly fixed. IMS design would fair little better.

Try IMS designs in 98 Hobart also a weather abnormalitiy. Also some other similarities to Fastnet such as nothing in the forecast at the start and also some things occured late. For instance a critical Fasnet weather update wasn't broadcast until after the normal shipping forecast so missed.

I've read some shit before but that takes the cake. 

Agree fully, JS

IMS boats had a whole different set of problems in a proper gale.

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20 hours ago, VWAP said:

Whats IOR?

Invest Or Retire

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1 hour ago, toad said:

bad manners were ignored in the pursuit of rule advantage. 

And you wonder why it's popular here? :D

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36 minutes ago, kiwin said:

 What I never understood was that no  attempt was made to modify the rule to form a more wholesome boat.

One of the big reasons why it died was because it was changed so often for that very reason.

Sometimes boats weren't even finished building before the rule changed yet again.

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8 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

One of the big reasons why it died was because it was changed so often for that very reason.

Sometimes boats weren't even finished building before the rule changed yet again.

This - don’t start building until after the ITC meetings......IIRC they were in November each year?

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11 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

One of the big reasons why it died was because it was changed so often for that very reason.

Sometimes boats weren't even finished building before the rule changed yet again.

and that happened again with IMS--and that killed IMS even faster.

Some lessons are never learned.

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

'Nuff said.

 

400 years and it's still the same mistakes

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2 hours ago, lydia said:

Agree fully, JS

IMS boats had a whole different set of problems in a proper gale.

Wasn't just wind speed.

Both in 79 Fasnet and 89 Hobart "sea state" was the killer but cause different and both with late weather warnings having the same effect on the fleet.

Smaller boats kept going and turning around too late prolonging the experience. Both races bigger boats kept going. Hobart to finish and in Fasnet around the rock and rode the NW home (which also burns up the downhill argument).

Hobart East Australian current going south into a cunt of a southerly and shallow water. 

Fasnet also shallow water, no current but big difference there was a change in wind direction from SW to NNW. So one large existing wavetrain and when the other arrives a very short steep fucking mess.

The real stupidity of that idiot post about Fastnet killing IOR is if you had your pick, what would you rather be on, either underway or laying a hull in a proper gale?

An IOR/IMS 50 footer or a TP52??

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8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Wasn't just wind speed.

Both in 79 Fasnet and 89 Hobart "sea state" was the killer but cause different and both with late weather warnings having the same effect on the fleet.

Smaller boats kept going and turning around too late prolonging the experience. Both races bigger boats kept going. Hobart to finish in Fasnet around the rock and road the NW home which also burns up the downhill argument.

Hobart east Australian current going south into a cunt of a southerly and shallow water. 

Fasnet also shallow water, no current but big difference there was a change in wind direction from SW to NNW. So one large existing wavetrain and when the other arrives a very short steep fucking mess.

The stupidity of that idiot post about Fastnet killing IOR is if you had you your pick what would you rather be on, either underway or laying a hull in a proper gale?

An IOR/IMS 50 footer or a TP52??

Better comparison is smaller--30-40 ftish. The 50s finished Fastnet. The Contessa survived. GRIMALKIN as a boat did but her skipper owner? did not.

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1 minute ago, fastyacht said:

Better comparison is smaller--30-40 ftish.

OK for a proper gale and take your pick of boat to survive.

A 1980's IOR optimised Beneteau 40 footer OR a contemporary IRC optimised Beneteau 40??

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On 5/7/2020 at 6:36 PM, Editor said:

calm down mr. wad. it is a fascinating time period in sailing for a lot of us.

Says the guy with the coolest sport boat on the planet getting ready for the purple haired ladies in the retirement home and dinners at 5pm as he contemplates his A5---a stinking cruiser with a inboard and flushing toilet.  WTF.  Sailing "Anarchy".  Haha!  Hardly.

You can have my sport boat when ya pull my cold clamy hand off the tiller chump!  Rage on!!

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Here's the proper trim angle downwind on anything rated IOR kiddies

 

 

ajaxnetphoto-august-1979-solent-england-admirals-cupper-death-roll-GAAJ29.jpg

post-2524-1201483568.jpg

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