jhiller

Best out of the box French Cat

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Which of the French Cat builders currently produces the best all around boat ? I'm looking for 42 ft new that will take one trip across the Atlantic pond and then move throughout the Caribe and South American Coast. Well put together and built with good if not top quality fittings and fit out. 

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With a name like Jhiller you need a Rapido 40 Trimaran not a French Catamaran :D

 

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In terms of performance:

1) Marsaudon TS42, http://www.marsaudon-composites.com/en/ts42/

2) Outremer 4X

3) Catana 47

The first two are lighter, and the Marsaudon I believe has the highest level of fit and finish being a low volume  semi-custom boat (think baby Gunboat). Outremer make a lovely boat as well, but their interior furnishings were a bit on the cheaper side to me, primarily to save weight I suspect. I haven’t been on a new Catana, but they have a great reputation as a world cruising boat and I suspect will have more internal volume than the other two.

A trimaran might not be a bad option, I would look at the Rapido 50 though for your mission.

Good luck!

 

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18 hours ago, jhiller said:

Which of the French Cat builders currently produces the best all around boat ? I'm looking for 42 ft new that will take one trip across the Atlantic pond and then move throughout the Caribe and South American Coast. Well put together and built with good if not top quality fittings and fit out. 

Well, there are already a lot of cats in the caribe...why not find one there and skip the trans atlantic travail; flying is a lot faster.  Just a thot.

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19 hours ago, samc99us said:

Marsaudon I believe has the highest level of fit and finish being a low volume  semi-custom boat (think baby Gunboat).

When looking pictures at their website, I don't get GB comparison. Fasteners showing in ceilings gives me light, fast and spartan vibes, but not highest level of fit and finish. p1030827.JPG

image-17-09-15-09-44.jpeg

 

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23 hours ago, Paul Koch said:

With a name like Jhiller you need a Rapido 40 Trimaran not a French Catamaran :D

 

Paul... Great to see your name and hear from you. Maybe you're right about the Rapido. 

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6 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Well, there are already a lot of cats in the caribe...why not find one there and skip the trans atlantic travail; flying is a lot faster.  Just a thot.

True MultiThom but I'd like to spend a month playing in the Med on the boat

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22 hours ago, samc99us said:

In terms of performance:

1) Marsaudon TS42, http://www.marsaudon-composites.com/en/ts42/

2) Outremer 4X

3) Catana 47

The first two are lighter, and the Marsaudon I believe has the highest level of fit and finish being a low volume  semi-custom boat (think baby Gunboat). Outremer make a lovely boat as well, but their interior furnishings were a bit on the cheaper side to me, primarily to save weight I suspect. I haven’t been on a new Catana, but they have a great reputation as a world cruising boat and I suspect will have more internal volume than the other two.

A trimaran might not be a bad option, I would look at the Rapido 50 though for your mission.

Good luck!

 

You might find the Catana hard to  come by.

From a few other threads it seems Catana has prioritized the Bali line (opposite of what OP is looking for) ‘cause that is where the money is.

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5 hours ago, Upp3 said:

When looking pictures at their website, I don't get GB comparison. Fasteners showing in ceilings gives me light, fast and spartan vibes, but not highest level of fit and finish. 

 

 

 Indeed, TS stands for "Very Simple", and it should be compared to the Pogos (structure yard) in terms of fittings philosophy (typically they try to do as much as possible out of the mold,lightest possible, no linings), on the other hand the Outremers quality of furnitures is really quite good.

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6 hours ago, Upp3 said:

When looking pictures at their website, I don't get GB comparison. Fasteners showing in ceilings gives me light, fast and spartan vibes, but not highest level of fit and finish. p1030827.JPG

image-17-09-15-09-44.jpeg

 

That's fair. My comment was more in regard to net product, i.e level of composite work, hardware selection, and total fit out. I am not a fan of liners, they add weight and reduce access to systems. I haven't been on the TS line personally (there are 2 in the Carib, none in the U.S as far as I am aware), but I have been on the Outremer 4X and 5X and found some of the furniture a bit lower quality than I would expect at this price point. There is a noticeable difference walking from a Gunboat/HH/Kinetic to the Outremer in terms of interior furnishings. I'm sure that would also apply to the TS line but they are also a good bit less than a comparable Outremer and I expect similar quality of interior furnishings. Also, none but Marsaudon are producing a 42' cat per the OP's specs.

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Buy used. It’ll cost less and be more reliable. No boats are good out of the box. I’d say the most reliable point is about 2 years old. 

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27 minutes ago, soma said:

Buy used. It’ll cost less and be more reliable. No boats are good out of the box. I’d say the most reliable point is about 2 years old. 

Why is that new boats are not ready to go when the owner takes possession? I’ve heard of and observed the problems of commissioning a new boat.

Given other industries have figured out how to build quality even with relatively low volume production, why can’t we get that in boats?

Many in the car industry used to believe you had a choice between quality and value. At the time Mercedes had a rep for quality. They spent almost as many labour hours in post production QA as they did on the line. Then Toyota demonstrated the idiocy of that thinking by showing how much cheaper it was to do it right and do it once.

So yes it might be a bit more cost to get it right before leaving the boatyard but when you look at the total cost of getting it right wouldn’t it be cheaper to charge a bit more for the boat but not have the owner spend a year or two chasing down problems and getting them fixed in inopportune places?

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My boat has visible fasteners. In many ways that's smart. If the inside of a boat is fared and painted, many times that is more costly than a headliner, that you can hide all sorts of crap behind.

T42 would be my call but I'd take an orma 60:D

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2 hours ago, KC375 said:

Why is that new boats are not ready to go when the owner takes possession? I’ve heard of and observed the problems of commissioning a new boat.

 

Given other industries have figured out how to build quality even with relatively low volume production, why can’t we get that in boats?

 

Many in the car industry used to believe you had a choice between quality and value. At the time Mercedes had a rep for quality. They spent almost as many labour hours in post production QA as they did on the line. Then Toyota demonstrated the idiocy of that thinking by showing how much cheaper it was to do it right and do it once.

 

So yes it might be a bit more cost to get it right before leaving the boatyard but when you look at the total cost of getting it right wouldn’t it be cheaper to charge a bit more for the boat but not have the owner spend a year or two chasing down problems and getting them fixed in inopportune places?

 

The majority of net profits for a car company come from service, not new sales, and not pre-owned sales. A company like Mercedes has their service down to a T, and ropes the customer into their dealership eco-system for scheduled service, probably at a higher rate than Toyota, which I'd bet has more new and used customers using independent mechanics, which doesn't help the company.  For Mercs, stuff like using the wrong oil voids the warranty on the engine, and their A B C levels of inter mile service are down to the last km, and I'd argue pretty bang on,  so eventually most customers end up being willing to pay a premium for dealer service rather than independent shops. This is for scheduled maintenance, and not unreasonable breakdowns, which is a different topic. The massive investment in post production QA, one could reasonably argue, could benefit both the company's bottom line for the life of the car, and the customer who is willing to pay a slight premium.

Though there may be some exceptions(especially on the high end of the market), boat builders often don't end up participating in the service and maintenance revenue streams of their product going forward. Things like seasonal commissioning, engine maintenance, winterization will likely go to a third party. That's strike one against them in terms of slim margins. So the builder ends up with the least profitable or not profitable part of after market care which is servicing warranty issues. Then the question becomes, what portion of warranty issues are builder liable, and what are supplier liable? Meaning, if its the Volvo Penta that blinks out, its likely that the warranty would be Volvo serviced and not impact the boatyard (that much, as there is still aftermarket customer care and so on to make the warranty executable by the third party). So maybe its only things like structure, keel, blistering, over-all balance of systems installations(probably a big one)and I guess a certain amount of preliminary rig tweaking that goes back to the builder.   

So the aftermarket equation is one of service plus warranty plus teething problems. In the auto sector, warranty issues are pretty rare these days(the odd mass recall notwithstanding) as are teething problems. Regarding warranty in the marine sector, probably less rare, and possibly the majority on the component side. So we are left with 'teething problems' to compare between boat/auto. Back in the day, you'd nurse your car for the first few thousand miles, I guess that was teething. Obviously commissioning a boat has slightly different parameters and I'd argue, is a different animal than today's highly integrated/manufactured automobiles. Just like a new guitar, its gonna take a while to sit just right and stay in tune. Or maybe think of a boat a little bit more like a hand-built sports car. They will always complain if you don't treat them right and tweak a lot, especially in the early days.

All of that said, I don't dispute that for many reasons a boat will take a while to find its groove with over-all systems and have definitely heard your sentiments echoed by others as to why the marine industry doesn't seem to be able to meet the same reliability standards of other industries.

And back on topic, the TS 42 seems to offer a race version of its interior with no galley cupboards etc., and as for the over-all fit out, I think probably around 25-30% headroom between base model and fully loaded, out of the box that is...probably after about a weeks shakedown, the running costs are all on the proud new owner.

 

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52 minutes ago, fufkin said:

The majority of net profits for a car company come from service, not new sales, and not pre-owned sales. ...

 

That's fascinating. Obviously that would affect behaviour. Do you have a source for the observation that car manufacturers make the majority of their profit from after sales service?

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31 minutes ago, KC375 said:

That's fascinating. Obviously that would affect behaviour. Do you have a source for the observation that car manufacturers make the majority of their profit from after sales service?

Here's a basic approximate run down and I'm sorry I meant %of gross profits(this source compares %gross profits v %total sales). New sales approx 25%. Pre-owned sales approx 25%. Parts and Service approx 50%. 

Where Does the Car Dealer Make Money? | Edmunds

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1 minute ago, fufkin said:

Here's a basic approximate run down. New sales approx 25%. Pre-owned sales approx 25%. Parts and Service approx 50%. 

Where Does the Car Dealer Make Money? | Edmunds

It is a beautiful thing.  I can't design the machine.  I can't manufacture it.

Fun involves keeping the thing doing what it was designed to do.  Some things I leave to the professionals.  Other times I like to get my hands dirty and know it is done right.

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27 minutes ago, fufkin said:

Here's a basic approximate run down and I'm sorry I meant %of gross profits(this source compares %gross profits v %total sales). New sales approx 25%. Pre-owned sales approx 25%. Parts and Service approx 50%. 

Where Does the Car Dealer Make Money? | Edmunds

Yes that is how the car dealers make money, not how the manufacturers make money.  What share of dealers are owned by manufacturers globally? I don’t know. It is a distinctive trait of Tesla but for at least the rest of North America the majority of dealers are not manufacture owned.

As far as dealers go Edmunds is right the after sales service is where the majority of gross profit comes from. BUT as with much management reporting it’s worth looking a little more closely. In a well run dealer (i.e. rapid inventory turn) the return on capital employed is way higher in new car sales than in service or used car sales.

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4 hours ago, KC375 said:

Why is that new boats are not ready to go when the owner takes possession? I’ve heard of and observed the problems of commissioning a new boat.

 

Given other industries have figured out how to build quality even with relatively low volume production, why can’t we get that in boats?

 

Many in the car industry used to believe you had a choice between quality and value. At the time Mercedes had a rep for quality. They spent almost as many labour hours in post production QA as they did on the line. Then Toyota demonstrated the idiocy of that thinking by showing how much cheaper it was to do it right and do it once.

 

So yes it might be a bit more cost to get it right before leaving the boatyard but when you look at the total cost of getting it right wouldn’t it be cheaper to charge a bit more for the boat but not have the owner spend a year or two chasing down problems and getting them fixed in inopportune places?

 

apples and oranges...

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1 minute ago, Trovão said:

apples and oranges...

Fair enough.

What other large ticket series production has as many issues post sale? You might argue home builders - but they are really a sequence of one by one builds rather than a series plant based production.  I believe the manufactured / modular housing builders have a reliability level above boat builders...that would seem a more similar comparison.

I just can't see how it is cost effective to be fixing after rather than building quality to start. But then my operations prof was pretty obsessive compulsive that the most significant quality assurance happened at the design stage - design of the product and design of the manufacturing process.

I’m sure I’m not getting it as even the big series folks like Beneteau, Bavaria, and Hunter send stuff off the line that’s disappointing. I’ve shown up early for a few boat shows to watch the dealers trying to clean up issues on the latest model...how is that cost effective or helpful to sales.

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Marsaudon TS42.... for me.... but i like cats for  #1 Speed and then #2 Comfort / room

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Having no headliner, ie so you can see the bolts is a huge plus.

A headliner hides all sorts of potential problems including leaks and not being able to replace deck fittings.

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3 hours ago, KC375 said:

Yes that is how the car dealers make money, not how the manufacturers make money.  What share of dealers are owned by manufacturers globally? I don’t know. It is a distinctive trait of Tesla but for at least the rest of North America the majority of dealers are not manufacture owned.

 

As far as dealers go Edmunds is right the after sales service is where the majority of gross profit comes from. BUT as with much management reporting it’s worth looking a little more closely. In a well run dealer (i.e. rapid inventory turn) the return on capital employed is way higher in new car sales than in service or used car sales.

 

 

 

Agreed.  I was a bit sloppy in equating dealer numbers with corporate numbers. My bad and I realized that after I posted. But the parts and revenue stream is not insignificant to the parent company, and just one of a myriad of examples that differentiate the automobile industry from the marine industry.

Putting aside % of franchise ownership by parent companies, the list of ancillary revenue streams from parts and service, to start, would be:

-remittances of gross revenue. Even at 5-10% annual franchise fees, royalties from parts and service across a broad range of dealers at the retail level add up. The point of interest would be to compare those numbers to the wholesale per auto margins and then add:

-wholesale parts. Big revenue stream for the parent company, right down to brand name windshield wipers. This varies from economy to luxury sectors.

-retention of leases, purchases and customer loyalty. The better the service, the more likely the average customer will be a repeat buyer or leaser.

There are probably more ancillary parts and service revenue streams that I'm forgetting.

If boats were essential items to a large percentage of households and were generally priced in for a reasonable living wage to be able  to lease or purchase with cheap financing every three years, the industries would be more comparable. As it is, the boating market, and more specifically the sailing market, is a fraction of auto, highly fragmented, specialized and almost hand built and semi-custom compared to the highly mechanized, highly integrated manufacturing that benefits from years of pre-scaled R and D that characterizes the auto industry.

Done with the thread drift. Back to the best 42 foot newly built out of the box French catamaran available. I'd vote for the Tres Simple 42, if only it had the steering set up of the Alibi 54.

 

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5 hours ago, KC375 said:

What other large ticket series production has as many issues post sale?   

Recreational Vehicles have similar post-sale issues... to the point where it isn't uncommon advice to buy 'lightly' used. You save on the initial depreciation hit and the previous owner has probably shaken out most of the bugs.

There are other similarities, as well -- RV and boat manufacturers both assemble and integrate many parts and systems from other manufacturers. The bits and pieces have individual warranties, but a true bumper-to-bumper warranty is rare. The integration seems like the most challenging part of the equation, but getting service from subordinate warranties may almost be challenging, too... especially with a hull made in one place, a mast made in another, a motor made still somewhere else, and etc. There's no one place to go that stocks parts -- even the boat builder orders just the parts or assemblies they need.

The original boat builder knows best how the various bits are assembled, and every subsequent service person has to Braille out what was designed vs. what was built, and what was added on or serviced since commissioning.

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3 hours ago, fufkin said:

There are probably more ancillary parts and service revenue streams that I'm forgetting.

Car and RV dealerships do really well on marking up and reselling financing.

If I won the lottery that I don't play, I'd look hard at Outremers. Really, they have 42' interiors in 50' boats -- and that's better to my taste than a 50' interior layer-caked into a 40' waterline, like Lagoon.

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5 hours ago, randii said:

Recreational Vehicles have similar post-sale issues... to the point where it isn't uncommon advice to buy 'lightly' used. You save on the initial depreciation hit and the previous owner has probably shaken out most of the bugs.

There are other similarities, as well -- RV and boat manufacturers both assemble and integrate many parts and systems from other manufacturers. The bits and pieces have individual warranties, but a true bumper-to-bumper warranty is rare. The integration seems like the most challenging part of the equation, but getting service from subordinate warranties may almost be challenging, too... especially with a hull made in one place, a mast made in another, a motor made still somewhere else, and etc. There's no one place to go that stocks parts -- even the boat builder orders just the parts or assemblies they need.

The original boat builder knows best how the various bits are assembled, and every subsequent service person has to Braille out what was designed vs. what was built, and what was added on or serviced since commissioning.

That does underline the appeal of getting the simplest boat you can live with and the most accessible systems so you can spend more of your time enjoying the boat and less time dealing with warranties / repairs in exotic places....

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10 hours ago, bushsailor said:

Having no headliner, ie so you can see the bolts is a huge plus.

A headliner hides all sorts of potential problems including leaks and not being able to replace deck fittings.

I'd agree with this - especially for owner operators. 

Between the Outremer and Marsaudon - for me the Outremer appears to have it on a few points;

- a lot more light and visibility in the main cabin

- interior trim, the examples on the TS42 look really sterile. I can't vouch for the quality of the Outremer trim but it certainly looks more inviting as a live aboard. TBF, maybe the TS has different options for the interior...?? 

- a better helm position, that outboard seat on the Marsaudon just looks funky

 

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21 hours ago, samc99us said:

Also, none but Marsaudon are producing a 42' cat per the OP's specs.

True. 45 Outremer is quite logically 48 feet long...

 

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On 5/11/2020 at 10:00 AM, KC375 said:

Given other industries have figured out how to build quality even with relatively low volume production, why can’t we get that in boats?

Many in the car industry used to believe you had a choice between quality and value. At the time Mercedes had a rep for quality. They spent almost as many labour hours in post production QA as they did on the line. Then Toyota demonstrated the idiocy of that thinking by showing how much cheaper it was to do it right and do it once

The car industry thinks in units of many, many thousands except for the boutique manufacturers. And those generally sucked for quality until bought by bigger parents (think Ferrari before Fiat, or Lambo before Audi bought them). I'm not sure you ought to point to Mercedes as a hallmark of quality. Find out how many things go wrong in an 8 year old off-lease Merc! Or even while under warranty.

A boat builder might be lucky to sell 10 of a particular model boat in a year.  So the money isn't there for the engineering and design to have it perfect.

The suppliers of equipment aren't any better. How many marine fridges (of one model) does Isotherm or windlasses does Maxwell sell in a year? < 10,000 fridges I'd bet and < 1000 windlasses of most of their sizes.

I found an article that said Maxwell had 35 employees and revenue of $7M.  Assume spare parts/accessories are 1M of sales. Guess wholesale average price is $1000. So 6M / $1000 = 6000 windlasses of all models. It's just a back of the envelope number, but it give you a feel for how many XX a particular marine supplier may make.

That volume is still just one level removed from hand crafted. There is little money for QA.

On 5/11/2020 at 12:03 PM, fufkin said:

The majority of net profits for a car company come from service, not new sales, and not pre-owned sales. A company like Mercedes has their service down to a T, and ropes the customer into their dealership eco-system for scheduled service, probably at a higher rate than Toyota, which I'd bet has more new and used customers using independent mechanics, which doesn't help the company

No, the profits for a DEALERSHIP come mostly from service. While they pay a franchise fee to the car company (small % of gross sales), that's not how car companies make money. They make most of their money selling cars to dealers. Parts sales are a much smaller piece of their revenue - because aftermarket parts are huge. Their leasing/credit departments are also a big part of income.

I googled "How do car companies make money" and got this article:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/082115/how-ford-makes-money.asp

2018 - Ford’s business is split up into three segments: “Automotive,” which is by far the largest, “Ford Credit” and “Mobility.”
Ford’s Automotive segment earned $5.4 billion EBIT in 2018.
Mobility [self driving cars and software] lost $674 million EBIT in 2018
Ford Credit earned $2.63 billion EBIT in 2018
(EBIT = earnings before interest and taxes).

They don't break down sales of cars versus parts

 

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6 minutes ago, Zonker said:

...

A boat builder might be lucky to sell 10 of a particular model boat in a year.  So the money isn't there for the engineering and design to have it perfect.

The suppliers of equipment aren't any better. How many marine fridges (of one model) does Isotherm or windlasses does Maxwell sell in a year? < 10,000 fridges I'd bet and < 1000 windlasses of most of their sizes.

I found an article that said Maxwell had 35 employees and revenue of $7M.  ...

That volume is still just one level removed from hand crafted. ...

So basically other than the vary highest volume models boat building never really get's past the prototype stage...So maybe other than RVs  general aviation aircraft would be analogous...and they don’t have much by way of quality issues...but maybe that is why a Cirrus that isn’t a whole lot more complicated than an RS7 ends up costing close to a million.

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15 hours ago, KC375 said:

That does underline the appeal of getting the simplest boat you can live with and the most accessible systems so you can spend more of your time enjoying the boat and less time dealing with warranties / repairs in exotic places....

Definitely one of the things I valued when I bought my Tennant Turissimo. It is essentially an empty hull with just a bit of electrical wiring... enough for starting the outboard, charging, lighting, and a few fans to move air. There's a canned fuel cooktop and a sink with a drain and a shelf over it for the water jug.

I'm not going trans-Atlantic with it, though... and it ain't French, so I'm part of the thread drift...

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6 hours ago, Zonker said:

The car industry thinks in units of many, many thousands except for the boutique manufacturers. And those generally sucked for quality until bought by bigger parents (think Ferrari before Fiat, or Lambo before Audi bought them). I'm not sure you ought to point to Mercedes as a hallmark of quality. Find out how many things go wrong in an 8 year old off-lease Merc! Or even while under warranty.

A boat builder might be lucky to sell 10 of a particular model boat in a year.  So the money isn't there for the engineering and design to have it perfect.

The suppliers of equipment aren't any better. How many marine fridges (of one model) does Isotherm or windlasses does Maxwell sell in a year? < 10,000 fridges I'd bet and < 1000 windlasses of most of their sizes.

I found an article that said Maxwell had 35 employees and revenue of $7M.  Assume spare parts/accessories are 1M of sales. Guess wholesale average price is $1000. So 6M / $1000 = 6000 windlasses of all models. It's just a back of the envelope number, but it give you a feel for how many XX a particular marine supplier may make.

That volume is still just one level removed from hand crafted. There is little money for QA.

No, the profits for a DEALERSHIP come mostly from service. While they pay a franchise fee to the car company (small % of gross sales), that's not how car companies make money. They make most of their money selling cars to dealers. Parts sales are a much smaller piece of their revenue - because aftermarket parts are huge. Their leasing/credit departments are also a big part of income.

I googled "How do car companies make money" and got this article:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/082115/how-ford-makes-money.asp

2018 - Ford’s business is split up into three segments: “Automotive,” which is by far the largest, “Ford Credit” and “Mobility.”
Ford’s Automotive segment earned $5.4 billion EBIT in 2018.
Mobility [self driving cars and software] lost $674 million EBIT in 2018
Ford Credit earned $2.63 billion EBIT in 2018
(EBIT = earnings before interest and taxes).

They don't break down sales of cars versus parts

 

I walked back my dealer vs corporate percentages in an above response to KC. That said, I'll stick to my original opinion that service is both a big revenue stream and source of profit for parent companies in the automobile sector and there is no comparable situation in the marine industry as a revenue stream returned to the builder. 

In this report, Mobility(parts and service) seems to account for roughly 1/5th of revenue yet around 1/3 of net operating profit. I'm not an accountant...so I'm not really sure how you calculate Mobility numbers as return on capital, as the numbers are 'royalties' over the lifespan of a vehicles sold. (If someone wants to peruse the whole report go for it...and I'm happy to be learn more).

That said, Daimler definitely made good money, and a significant portion of their profits on parts and service in 2019. 

https://annualreport.daimler.com/ar2019/combined-management-report/profitability/net-operating-profit

I'm pretty sure we're on the same page though, in terms of larger economies of scale driving deeper and more extensive R & D, both for end product and manufacturing process.

 

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Quote

the best all around boat

All boats are compromises in one direction or another. Best accommodation =/= best performance.

What factors are most important to you?

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French because it is close to the Med and that's part of the plan. Seawinds are great so are Maine Cats but I'd like to start this adventure in the Med

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1 hour ago, Upp3 said:

True. 45 Outremer is quite logically 48 feet long...

 

And most of the TS 42s built these days are more 45 than 42s I think, like below one :

ts-42_118243_max.jpg

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, yl75 said:

And most of the TS 42s built these days are more 45 than 42s I think, like below one :

ts-42_118243_max.jpg

Makes sense... more water line and buoyancy for more stuff? It would be nice if manufacturers updated the name too...

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31 minutes ago, yl75 said:

And most of the TS 42s built these days are more 45 than 42s I think, like below one :

ts-42_118243_max.jpg

 

 

 

Did the 42s float stern down or something?

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On 5/10/2020 at 1:30 PM, jhiller said:

Which of the French 

Why just French? New one can be built in Spain, Italy, (even Tunisia).

Pre-owned built in Italy, Spain, China, Poland, SA, Vietnam, Chile, UK can also be found there in the Med.  

 

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21 hours ago, Zonker said:

 

That volume is still just one level removed from hand crafted. There is little money for QA.

 

But there is money for correction after the fact since most flaws are hidden until the boat actually flexes and gets wet...but the money comes from the sailor, not the builder.  In addition, many production boats use facilities that do not spend even MOST of their time building boats so you end up with production pressures that force completion (or hiding of flaws) before anyone knowledgeable can look at the "problem".  Buying a boat is caveat emptor.  The sole exception to this was the early corsair boats where Ian forced QA processes onto Corsair--which ultimately caused them to part ways.   

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4 hours ago, eastern motors said:

Did the 42s float stern down or something?

Don't necessarily think so, but I do recall noticing that they didn't have much rocker and a fairly deeply immersed transom. Probably better for top end speed but a bit draggy in the light maybe? The extensions would help with the pitching as well. The only real downside is that you would pay more at the dock from the increase LOA. In a world where you didn't pay by the foot, I think you would see a lot more longer hulls out there as it's the easiest way to get more performance and comfort at sea and the cost increase to build a hull a few feet longer should be pretty minimal relative to the total cost.

I think it makes a lot of sense to name these for the accommodation like the Outremer does so that the expectations are set correctly. Physically they literally are 40' boats on stretched out 45+ long hulls rather than "stripped out" 50'.

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17 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

But there is money for correction after the fact since most flaws are hidden until the boat actually flexes and gets wet...but the money comes from the sailor, not the builder.  In addition, many production boats use facilities that do not spend even MOST of their time building boats so you end up with production pressures that force completion (or hiding of flaws) before anyone knowledgeable can look at the "problem".  Buying a boat is caveat emptor.  The sole exception to this was the early corsair boats where Ian forced QA processes onto Corsair--which ultimately caused them to part ways.   

Which says you should never buy new unless you can have on site representation during the build and that representative has real contractual powers to have issues remedied.

It also suggests their should be a market opening for someone who does a better job of quality assurance...BUT that requires:

1.      the consumer to be smart enough to pay more up front in exchange for less time and money later; and

2.      the consumer to BELIEVE that the yard can deliver on that promise.

Those are two pretty limiting conditions in an already small and fragmented market.

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The bridgedeck clearance of that photo isn't great - considering the beam of the boat and tunnel width.

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

The bridgedeck clearance of that photo isn't great - considering the beam of the boat and tunnel width.

Yeah, the 42 is good. The TS5 is great. 

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On 5/11/2020 at 11:02 AM, mpenman said:

If the inside of a boat is fared and painted, many times that is more costly than a headliner, that you can hide all sorts of crap behind.

Gino Morrelli made this exact point to me when extolling the virtues of a used SA-built Gunboat.

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