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P_Wop

Tack gybe set

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While we're doing these IOR reminiscences, who remembers the tack gybe set?

45 to 65-footer, starboard rounding, typical in the Solent, with the next leg DDW.  Also at times on twelves.

Approach the mark near or on the starboard tack layline, giving you lots of rights. 

Put the kite bag on the foredeck, well forward.  Pole goes up on starboard side, both ends, and just before you get to the mark pull the kite tack back into the pole end, and a bit more, like 6 feet off the headstay.  Make sure you've really banded the tack or it's a nightmare.  The foreguy is just two turns on the winch, with someone smart on it.  

This looks all wrong.  We haven't tacked yet.  

Just before the mark the kite is hoisted behind the jib, and then the helmsman tacks the boat round the mark, and bears away big time.  The main must go out all the way to help.  

The jib tailer eases the jib just 5 or 6 feet during the tack till it's well backed and helps to push the bow down, then cleats it and grabs the kite sheet.  

The aftguy comes all the way back.  The kite is now hoisted on the windward side of the jib, but the pole is well back (perhaps underwater) so this is no problem.  The main crashes over as the boat spins, and we've gybed.   The jib flops back and can come down at your leisure.

And we're going downwind with a perfectly set kite on starboard before the stern clears the mark, shouting all the rights again.

Port roundings are so boring.

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Remember that when executed properly they were a work of art, like a ballet and when something went south all hell could break loose.

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Nice move.  

Equally nice was the jibe and simultaneous peel from reaching kite to running kite and blooper that the Aussies pulled off right in front of the StFYC bar in 25 knots.  Seemed like the kite just changed colors at the mark.

Amateurs in love with what they were doing and deadly serious about it.  

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10 minutes ago, zenmasterfred said:

Remember that when executed properly they were a work of art, like a ballet and when something went south all hell could break loose.

Oh, yes, when it's good, it's very very good.  Otherwise..... Not so good.

Lots of practice was the only thing to make this work.  The timing was critical to the second.

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Lots of yarn made things so much easier. Even in a simple gybe set if you banded the head enough you could have the kite at the masthead by the time the boom came over; with smart pull on the afterguy and a quick tug on the topping lift (slack as the pole lifted when the kite filled) you were off and running. 

I guess I understood getting rid of rubber bands which stayed floating in the water, but yarn is as biodegradable as you can get.

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1 hour ago, P_Wop said:

The kite is now hoisted on the windward side of the jib, but the pole is well back (perhaps underwater) so this is no problem.

Ha ha..and add;  "foreguy...with someone smart not hungover and forgetful on it.."

1 hour ago, P_Wop said:

The foreguy is just two turns on the winch, with someone smart on it.  

 

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...and don't forget the leeward mark counterpart: the Mexican. Likewise a thing of beauty when executed by a polished team.

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Jeez i have alot to learn. 
 

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1 hour ago, Somebody Else said:

...and don't forget the leeward mark counterpart: the Mexican. Likewise a thing of beauty when executed by a polished team.

Both have occasionally slowed down a Bowman's career progression through no fault of their own.

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25 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Both have occasionally slowed down a Bowman's career progression through no fault of their own.

Really, so sorry to hear that Jack.

Or is there still hope for a come back, like your nemesis Johnny Depp?

 

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2 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Really, so sorry to hear that Jack.

Sorry ??? How do you think I took over the bow :ph34r:

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4 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Lots of yarn made things so much easier. Even in a simple gybe set if you banded the head enough you could have the kite at the masthead by the time the boom came over; with smart pull on the afterguy and a quick tug on the topping lift (slack as the pole lifted when the kite filled) you were off and running. 

I guess I understood getting rid of rubber bands which stayed floating in the water, but yarn is as biodegradable as you can get.

Re-banding the oppositions kite with triple strength yarn was always helpful on windy days :ph34r:

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6 hours ago, P_Wop said:

While we're doing these IOR reminiscences, who remembers the tack gybe set?

45 to 65-footer, starboard rounding, typical in the Solent, with the next leg DDW.  Also at times on twelves.

Approach the mark near or on the starboard tack layline, giving you lots of rights. 

Put the kite bag on the foredeck, well forward.  Pole goes up on starboard side, both ends, and just before you get to the mark pull the kite tack back into the pole end, and a bit more, like 6 feet off the headstay.  Make sure you've really banded the tack or it's a nightmare.  The foreguy is just two turns on the winch, with someone smart on it.  

This looks all wrong.  We haven't tacked yet.  

Just before the mark the kite is hoisted behind the jib, and then the helmsman tacks the boat round the mark, and bears away big time.  The main must go out all the way to help.  

The jib tailer eases the jib just 5 or 6 feet during the tack till it's well backed and helps to push the bow down, then cleats it and grabs the kite sheet.  

The aftguy comes all the way back.  The kite is now hoisted on the windward side of the jib, but the pole is well back (perhaps underwater) so this is no problem.  The main crashes over as the boat spins, and we've gybed.   The jib flops back and can come down at your leisure.

And we're going downwind with a perfectly set kite on starboard before the stern clears the mark, shouting all the rights again.

Port roundings are so boring.

For those of us born post-IOR, I would love to see a video of that.

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34 minutes ago, Misbehavin' said:

For those of us born post-IOR, I would love to see a video of that.

all the videos are fuzzy, out of focus, at a distance... like bigfoot and nessie :)

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17 minutes ago, ryley said:
52 minutes ago, Misbehavin' said:

For those of us born post-IOR, I would love to see a video of that.

all the videos are fuzzy, out of focus, at a distance... like bigfoot and nessie

Considering that half of a good PHRF fleet cannot manage a bear-away set, it's understandable how young people would think this kind of maneuver is mythical. I taught my crew to do gybe sets and Mexicans, but that was on a small boat -and- the pole deliberately rigged so we could leave it dangling until after our first tack.

Preparation is the key, and solid grasp of where each line will run is essential. And of course no stopper knots.....

I like to do good sets, but I like good douse-n-rounds better. I don't like to start the spinnaker halyard sooner than one boat length before the mark. And don't drop it so it blocks my view while I'm fuckin' steering!

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Misbehavin' said:

For those of us born post-IOR, I would love to see a video of that.

Only on Super 8 son.

images - 2020-05-18T223854.013.jpeg

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7 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Just before the mark the kite is hoisted behind the jib, and then the helmsman tacks the boat round the mark, and bears away big time.

At this point, the naviguesser remembers that the race committee set a spreader mark today...

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4 minutes ago, Snowden said:

At this point, the naviguesser remembers that the race committee set a spreader mark today...

But decides that now is not the moment to mention it.

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When I was an Opti kid one of our trainers almost sunk his RIB by putting a 1st gen Betamax camera on it. It looked like a focken bazooka!  :-) 

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16 minutes ago, 10thTonner said:

When I was an Opti kid one of our trainers almost sunk his RIB by putting a 1st gen Betamax camera on it. It looked like a focken bazooka!  :-) 

you mean this is considered modern:

1988

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12 hours ago, P_Wop said:

While we're doing these IOR reminiscences, who remembers the tack gybe set?

45 to 65-footer, starboard rounding, typical in the Solent, with the next leg DDW.  Also at times on twelves.

Approach the mark near or on the starboard tack layline, giving you lots of rights. 

Put the kite bag on the foredeck, well forward.  Pole goes up on starboard side, both ends, and just before you get to the mark pull the kite tack back into the pole end, and a bit more, like 6 feet off the headstay.  Make sure you've really banded the tack or it's a nightmare.  The foreguy is just two turns on the winch, with someone smart on it.  

This looks all wrong.  We haven't tacked yet.  

Just before the mark the kite is hoisted behind the jib, and then the helmsman tacks the boat round the mark, and bears away big time.  The main must go out all the way to help.  

The jib tailer eases the jib just 5 or 6 feet during the tack till it's well backed and helps to push the bow down, then cleats it and grabs the kite sheet.  

The aftguy comes all the way back.  The kite is now hoisted on the windward side of the jib, but the pole is well back (perhaps underwater) so this is no problem.  The main crashes over as the boat spins, and we've gybed.   The jib flops back and can come down at your leisure.

And we're going downwind with a perfectly set kite on starboard before the stern clears the mark, shouting all the rights again.

Port roundings are so boring.

We do that all the time but we set without the pole, tweakers on full, kite is hoisted and the sheet is set and cleated so only the guy needs trimming back to square the kite,  jib comes down as the boat gybes and then the pole goes up or out. it's harder on a big boat but if tweakers are on it works well. I think J24's do this a lot.

This is a great way for a driver to learn to sail a boat to the spin without a pole, it really teaches a driver how to keep a kite full during a gybe. A skill many have lost.

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10 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

...and don't forget the leeward mark counterpart: the Mexican. Likewise a thing of beauty when executed by a polished team.

We can't call them Mexican, anymore.  They are Take Downs of Latinx Persuasion!  

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12 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Lots of yarn made things so much easier. Even in a simple gybe set if you banded the head enough you could have the kite at the masthead by the time the boom came over; with smart pull on the afterguy and a quick tug on the topping lift (slack as the pole lifted when the kite filled) you were off and running. 

I guess I understood getting rid of rubber bands which stayed floating in the water, but yarn is as biodegradable as you can get.

Depends if your under-assistant-boat-preparation-manager purchased the polyester or natural wool variety of yarn.  

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24 minutes ago, silent bob said:

We can't call them Mexican, anymore.  They are Take Downs of Latinx Persuasion!  

You do know the origin of the "Mexican" take down don't you?

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36 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

You do know the origin of the "Mexican" take down don't you?

Very aware, raced in Sandy Eggo more than i should have.  You do know that the Republik of Kalifornia has outlawed any terminology that could be offensive to anybody?  We can't call them Illegals, Wetbacks, Beaners, or anything else but LatinX anymore.  Becuase LatinX is not Gender Specific, so as not to offend an Illegal Tranny Wetback!

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6 minutes ago, silent bob said:

Very aware, raced in Sandy Eggo more than i should have.  You do know that the Republik of Kalifornia has outlawed any terminology that could be offensive to anybody?  We can't call them Illegals, Wetbacks, Beaners, or anything else but LatinX anymore.  Becuase LatinX is not Gender Specific, so as not to offend an Illegal Tranny Wetback!

Well, perhaps calling someone an "Amerikan" might be considered insulting by some, but I believe both Mexican and Canadian are quite acceptable terms.  

And now....back to sail-handling techniques.  I'm looking at a pic of our back-in-the-day amateur crew pulling off a light-air jibe set , cleanly slipping through a small hole with no rights, that won the regatta for us.  Everyone totally focused on their task.  Nobody spectating.  Not a rock star in sight.

 

IMG_3542.jpg

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What’s the difference between a Mexican and a Kiwi? Is there any? 

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37 minutes ago, silent bob said:

Very aware, raced in Sandy Eggo more than i should have.  You do know that the Republik of Kalifornia has outlawed any terminology that could be offensive to anybody?  We can't call them Illegals, Wetbacks, Beaners, or anything else but LatinX anymore.  Becuase LatinX is not Gender Specific, so as not to offend an Illegal Tranny Wetback!

Aww poor snowflake, not allowed to use hate speech any more, its so tough being an asshole these days.

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51 minutes ago, 10thTonner said:

What’s the difference between a Mexican and a Kiwi? Is there any? 

The Kiwi's have Velcro Gloves to make it easier to catch Sheep!

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6 hours ago, daan62 said:

you mean this is considered modern:

1988

 

Sure. 1980s technology has not yet filtered thru the PHRF fleet.

Most of the sailors I know around here are still pretty suspicious of fiberglass

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Well, perhaps calling someone an "Amerikan" might be considered insulting by some, but I believe both Mexican and Canadian are quite acceptable terms.  

And now....back to sail-handling techniques.  I'm looking at a pic of our back-in-the-day amateur crew pulling off a light-air jibe set , cleanly slipping through a small hole with no rights, that won the regatta for us.  Everyone totally focused on their task.  Nobody spectating.  Not a rock star in sight.

 

IMG_3542.jpg

The surface looks glassy. Though in the distance by the mark it looks like a little breeze.

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2 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

The surface looks glassy. Though in the distance by the mark it looks like a little breeze.

gybe set might indeed be a good choice!

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3 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Well, perhaps calling someone an "Amerikan" might be considered insulting by some, but I believe both Mexican and Canadian are quite acceptable terms.  

And now....back to sail-handling techniques.  I'm looking at a pic of our back-in-the-day amateur crew pulling off a light-air jibe set , cleanly slipping through a small hole with no rights, that won the regatta for us.  Everyone totally focused on their task.  Nobody spectating.  Not a rock star in sight.

 

IMG_3542.jpg

Dang, thats going back in time a bit!

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23 minutes ago, hobot said:

Dang, thats going back in time a bit!

Judging by the SoBad Genocide’s, early 90’s?!

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4 hours ago, silent bob said:

Very aware, raced in Sandy Eggo more than i should have.  You do know that the Republik of Kalifornia has outlawed any terminology that could be offensive to anybody?  We can't call them Illegals, Wetbacks, Beaners, or anything else but LatinX anymore.  Becuase LatinX is not Gender Specific, so as not to offend an Illegal Tranny Wetback!

DoRag must be feeling veeery frustrated.

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21 hours ago, P_Wop said:

While we're doing these IOR reminiscences, who remembers the tack gybe set?

45 to 65-footer, starboard rounding, typical in the Solent, with the next leg DDW.  Also at times on twelves.

 

We had a version called the tack-back-around (or as we called it the Burt Bacharach).

Approach the W mark on port layline... put up pole (both ends) for a port set, kite to leeward of the jib, on stbd rail... tack at mark, keeep jib backed until you jibe back again to P tack downwind (like a 270 deg turn). Set kite in the middle of the rounding so it was basically all the way up once you squared away on port again.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, silent bob said:

Judging by the SoBad Genocide’s, early 90’s?!

Yep.  Two of Pancho's finest.  It is, after all, an IOR thread.  You expected a new picture with asymmetricals and sprits?

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Tack gybe set was a regular at the top mark in Hawaii

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9 hours ago, Left Shift said:

You do know the origin of the "Mexican" take down don't you?

Of course!

It started when America's Cup was being contested in the 1990s in IACC yachts off San Diego. The common diurnal thermal breeze has you approaching the leeward mark on port tack, pointing toward Mission Bay, or on starboard, pointing at Mexico. A person of reasonable intellect can deduce the rest.

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9 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

What’s the difference between a Mexican and a Kiwi? Is there any? 

Your sheep will feel safer with a Mexican!

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21 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

What’s the difference between a Mexican and a Kiwi? Is there any? 

Have you ever seen a Mexican wanting to get laid crawling up a sheeps arse head first.....then waiting? 

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14 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Yep.  Two of Pancho's finest.  It is, after all, an IOR thread.  You expected a new picture with asymmetricals and sprits?

Lorence from Torrance.

9E706812-A6FC-473A-9F5D-1FBF1C905739.jpeg

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13 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

Of course!

It started when America's Cup was being contested in the 1990s in IACC yachts off San Diego. The common diurnal thermal breeze has you approaching the leeward mark on port tack, pointing toward Mission Bay, or on starboard, pointing at Mexico. A person of reasonable intellect can deduce the rest.

My intellect tells me that the phrase "Get that thing down before we end up in Mexico" came from the legendary Buddy Melges while under a wee bit of stress.

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47 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

My intellect tells me that the phrase "Get that thing down before we end up in Mexico" came from the legendary Buddy Melges while under a wee bit of stress.

Score!

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On 5/17/2020 at 10:04 PM, P_Wop said:

While we're doing these IOR reminiscences, who remembers the tack gybe set?

45 to 65-footer, starboard rounding, typical in the Solent, with the next leg DDW.  Also at times on twelves.

Approach the mark near or on the starboard tack layline, giving you lots of rights. 

Put the kite bag on the foredeck, well forward.  Pole goes up on starboard side, both ends, and just before you get to the mark pull the kite tack back into the pole end, and a bit more, like 6 feet off the headstay.  Make sure you've really banded the tack or it's a nightmare.  The foreguy is just two turns on the winch, with someone smart on it.  

This looks all wrong.  We haven't tacked yet.  

Just before the mark the kite is hoisted behind the jib, and then the helmsman tacks the boat round the mark, and bears away big time.  The main must go out all the way to help.  

The jib tailer eases the jib just 5 or 6 feet during the tack till it's well backed and helps to push the bow down, then cleats it and grabs the kite sheet.  

The aftguy comes all the way back.  The kite is now hoisted on the windward side of the jib, but the pole is well back (perhaps underwater) so this is no problem.  The main crashes over as the boat spins, and we've gybed.   The jib flops back and can come down at your leisure.

And we're going downwind with a perfectly set kite on starboard before the stern clears the mark, shouting all the rights again.

Port roundings are so boring.

Everybody doesn't do this?

I must have been lucky enough to sail with guys who run this drill at nearly every upwind mark.

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I have a fine recollection of a port rounding off Waikiki in a Clipper Cup race on Checkmate. Port tack on the port layline with a #3 jib. Pole up and slightly squared and hoist starts with the bow at the mark as the boat starts into the tack. As trimmer, I ease a couple feet of jib sheet and hold to let the jib blow the bow down. Partial main dump and the boat almost pivots around the mark and comes out on port just as the kite fills. I don't recall any traffic issues, so there must have been a pretty good gap on the starboard layline.  Massive hole dug in the ocean and it's a bit of a shock when the kite fills with the boatspeed almost zero. 

It may have been coining new terminology for use with Asyms or just Buddy's way with words that turned the Float Drop into a Mexican. It wasn't a new maneuver to get rid of the pole early and drop the kite to windward mid gybe. We'd been doing it since the mid '70's with symmetrics. 

Lastly, IOR racing was fantastic because I was young and fearless and it was the cutting edge of offshore racing. But the rule rewarded stupid hull shapes and the boats mostly sucked to sail on offshore, especially as they progressed toward stripped machines for inshore racing. 

 

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1 hour ago, pbd said:

Everybody doesn't do this?

I must have been lucky enough to sail with guys who run this drill at nearly every upwind mark.

Starboard roundings seem to have died outside match racing and offshore?

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27 minutes ago, Snowden said:

Starboard roundings seem to have died outside match racing and offshore?

Yes, because they lead to carnage when you have a bunch of boats approaching the mark on the port tack layline, with poles set etc (as A3A mentions), and someone comes in on starboard.

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1 hour ago, Snowden said:

Starboard roundings seem to have died outside match racing and offshore?

They're still quite common in the Solent and on San Francisco Bay.  And anywhere where you race round fixed marks, rather than the laid-buoy deal.

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1 hour ago, Expat Canuck said:

Yes, because they lead to carnage when you have a bunch of boats approaching the mark on the port tack layline, with poles set etc (as A3A mentions), and someone comes in on starboard.

Filters out the weak who can only do a bearaway set.  

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5 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

They're still quite common in the Solent and on San Francisco Bay.  And anywhere where you race round fixed marks, rather than the laid-buoy deal.

I gave up on Cowes Week about 10 yrs ago... my Solent sailing has been reduced to W/Ls, rounding the Nab tower to port and rounding the Island to port.

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On 5/18/2020 at 12:06 PM, Misbehavin' said:

For those of us born post-IOR, I would love to see a video of that.

There are some cave paintings.

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3 hours ago, P_Wop said:

They're still quite common in the Solent and on San Francisco Bay.  And anywhere where you race round fixed marks, rather than the laid-buoy deal.

In San Francisco, you start on a westerly in front of St. Fancy and head to Blackaller and what are you going to do?  Port layline approach is...uhmm...interesting.

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8 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

In San Francisco, you start on a westerly in front of St. Fancy and head to Blackaller and what are you going to do?  Port layline approach is...uhmm...interesting.

Yes, that port tack approach is very usual if you've gone into Crissy Field to get out of the flood tide.  If you want to approach the mark on starboard you have to go out into the worst flood, dodging starboard tackers until you can tack, and you lose a shed-load of distance.

Swings and roundabouts.  That's why it's one of the finest places to sail anywhere.

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