ACampbell8303

Looking for 25-27 ft phrf rocket...

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So I have recently been in the market for a project boat to beer can race Friday nights on the Eastern Shore of the Chesapeake. There is a lot more knowledge on this site than I have so I am opening up this forum for suggestions. I have great access to work space, tools, and sails so I mean dream boat rocket ship with lots of potential. Closer to ready to sail the better but I have a little know how, shop space, tools and access to good sails. Lets here it Anarchists!

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It's not a project boat, but look at Truculent Turtle, in the classifieds here.  Lindenberg 26, great boats, but I'm biased.

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22 minutes ago, ropetrick said:

B-25 if you want to go to weather.

Turbo'd B-25 if you want to go downwind as well!

 

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paging Alcatraz5768

 

 

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Define PHRF rocket. Do you want to go fast or do you want a nice rating? 

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C&C 25.

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Made it on the front page with the first few posts! Classic

 

Exiting to see what people suggest. 

- N.pro 8153

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1 hour ago, Hitchhiker said:

Define PHRF rocket. Do you want to go fast or do you want a nice rating? 

I want to win races corrected and also have a good sail. 

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Just now, ACampbell8303 said:

I want to win races corrected and also have a good sail. 

J-80

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1 minute ago, ACampbell8303 said:

I want to win races corrected and also have a good sail. 

Buy whatever you like then get on the PHRFer board and get the rating "fixed"

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15 minutes ago, Bowchow said:

Made it on the front page with the first few posts! Classic

 

Exiting to see what people suggest. 

- N.pro 8153

Lol was not expecting that!

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3 hours ago, GMiller said:

It's not a project boat, but look at Truculent Turtle, in the classifieds here.  Lindenberg 26, great boats, but I'm biased.

Looks like a nice boat. Nice sail inventory. Maybe I am out of my league but looking for something cheaper I can fix myself. That boat looks awesome and more than turn key!

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PHRF rocket and (cheap) project don’t typically go together.  
 

plenty of great project boats with potential to do well in PHRF.  But not sure they fall into the “rocket” category 

 

where on the Eastern Shore are you, and what are your fleet splits & how many boats typically beer and racing in those fleets?

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I have unusual circumstances. I work at a yard and can get very cheap storage, tools, people way smarter than me when I need to ask questions, and I also work for a sail maker. Lucky I guess. So by rocket I mean I want to correct to win races and I am looking for the right boat to do that with.

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59 minutes ago, ACampbell8303 said:
2 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Define PHRF rocket. Do you want to go fast or do you want a nice rating? 

I want to win races corrected and also have a good sail. 

Which one-design classes have you won in?

FB- Doug

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Here’s a video of Problem Child, from 2010. Looks fun if you can handle it.

 

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13 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Which one-design classes have you won in?

FB- Doug

I have two silver chevrons in the star class

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25 minutes ago, ACampbell8303 said:
39 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Which one-design classes have you won in?

 

I have two silver chevrons in the star class

I don't think PHRF racing has a lot of mountains for you to climb. Pick a boat that you like!

FB- Doug

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10 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I don't think PHRF racing has a lot of mountains for you to climb. Pick a boat that you like!

FB- Doug

I grew up racing a Morgan 27 on the bay. Beer can racing is the heart and soul of the sport. I don’t have a lot of money but can make a boat go. Come race with me when I find my rocket!

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Melges 24 and kiss your competitors and worries behind.  No more fun pocket rocket for the buck.  Dumb simple to operate at the lower performance levels of club racing.

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It stretches your length range, but the J/33 in Superior WI (SA classifieds) seems like a good deal.  If you’ve got storage and a shop, the length shouldn’t cost you much, and you can fix any wet core, if that’s a problem. 33s are PHRF killers. 

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Get a Soverel 33.  There are many on the market and one for 10K that looks ok. They respond well to glass work and are solid boats if taken care of properly. In light air you will do very well no matter what sails you hoist. They also can go very well in heavy air if you have the right crew and can hold on for dear life downwind! You would not be dissapointed. As opposed to your competition when you show up on the starting line. ( I am sure they will all try to talk you out of purchasing one!) For example a J-27 would finish after it was time for you to leave the bar. And the sport boats are sticky until the wind pipes up. So they will also freak out if you show up on the starting line. Check the average wind history during the time and dates that your beer can races take place. If it is around 8-10 or less...go get your trophies. 

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2 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Capri 25.  No seriously.  We've been able to make ours move!

The Capri's are legendary light air rockets.

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3 hours ago, ACampbell8303 said:
Quote

Light air?

Track down a CF27.

4600lbs seems heavy

Low wetted surface area + plenty of sail area = light air rocket, in this case.

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I know you are looking for a 27 foot range...just like a house or an apartment..the extra room always pays off in the long run...the Sov 33 has room below and huge aft bunks....not to mention a robust sail area to displacement ratio. It's up to your budget...you sound like you can DIY so consider it or go out for a sail on one. Fly before you buy! 

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2 hours ago, JimBowie said:

Melges 24 and kiss your competitors and worries behind.  No more fun pocket rocket for the buck.  Dumb simple to operate at the lower performance levels of club racing.

What this guy said!

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2 hours ago, valcour said:

It stretches your length range, but the J/33 in Superior WI (SA classifieds) seems like a good deal.  If you’ve got storage and a shop, the length shouldn’t cost you much, and you can fix any wet core, if that’s a problem. 33s are PHRF killers. 

J/33 is a phrf killer, nearly as fast as the J/35 and owed 12 sec a mile!   
But for the bigger Bay races, you’re also up against two very well sailed j/33s with great sails and good crew, who had the same idea. It will take time and money to match their performance.

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18 minutes ago, Salona said:

J/33 is a phrf killer, nearly as fast as the J/35 and owed 12 sec a mile!

Go with the 2008 custom for something fast, or an actual J/35 for 1D competition. unless all you care about is gaming phrf for “wins”. 
 

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9 hours ago, ACampbell8303 said:
9 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I don't think PHRF racing has a lot of mountains for you to climb. Pick a boat that you like!

FB- Doug

I grew up racing a Morgan 27 on the bay. Beer can racing is the heart and soul of the sport. I don’t have a lot of money but can make a boat go. Come race with me when I find my rocket!

I join in all the mocking of PHRF but am more of a heretic, really.... I consider PHRF a social event not a competitive sport. It does tend to reward good all-around sailing skills but if you have campaigned a one-design and learned from the winners and prepped your boat to win; 99% of PHRF sailors just seem just slovenly in their prep (well, the boats are a lot bigger and take more time/money to bring to a fine polish) and heedless in their sailing. But sailing is just plain fun.

My last PHRF boat, I bought because it sailed well in light air (it then proceeded to blow like stink for the next five years straight), and was a comfy/stable daysailer for my wife & I, and nice to take another couple out as guests... a Santana 23 (the old MORC daggerboard model). Worked out great for that, won enough to be satisfying there, I trained half the crews around here, but it was a tired '70s boat that needed more rebuilding than I wanted to sink into it.

That's why I say choose a boat you LIKE. Morgan 27 is a nice one, good looking... I can't say about the ergonomics/deck layout but that's an important factor IMHO. Sailing boats that punish you is for people who deserve that. I can tell you a  long list of boats that -I- like but you may well hate.

FB- Doug

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8 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

Capri 25.  No seriously.  We've been able to make ours move!

That's what I'm talking about. I will check it out. You guys run a 155% on her?

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35 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I join in all the mocking of PHRF but am more of a heretic, really.... I consider PHRF a social event not a competitive sport. It does tend to reward good all-around sailing skills but if you have campaigned a one-design and learned from the winners and prepped your boat to win; 99% of PHRF sailors just seem just slovenly in their prep (well, the boats are a lot bigger and take more time/money to bring to a fine polish) and heedless in their sailing. But sailing is just plain fun.

My last PHRF boat, I bought because it sailed well in light air (it then proceeded to blow like stink for the next five years straight), and was a comfy/stable daysailer for my wife & I, and nice to take another couple out as guests... a Santana 23 (the old MORC daggerboard model). Worked out great for that, won enough to be satisfying there, I trained half the crews around here, but it was a tired '70s boat that needed more rebuilding than I wanted to sink into it.

That's why I say choose a boat you LIKE. Morgan 27 is a nice one, good looking... I can't say about the ergonomics/deck layout but that's an important factor IMHO. Sailing boats that punish you is for people who deserve that. I can tell you a  long list of boats that -I- like but you may well hate.

FB- Doug

That Santana 23 looks really cool. Light. I will check these out more. Thank you Doug.

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11 hours ago, ACampbell8303 said:

I want to win races corrected and also have a good sail. 

If you'd consider a multihull I'd suggest an F-24 MkII, Sprint 750, or Dash 750.

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You find anything sexier, faster, easier or funner, let me know.  I want one!  In the meantime, stop wasting your time and BUY ONE.  NOW!

 

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Just now, ACampbell8303 said:

That Santana 23 looks really cool. Light. I will check these out more. Thank you Doug.

There's a few around that have had the plywood deck completely rebuilt... they're a time bomb. I did some rebuilding on mine including the daggerboard trunk & tabbing, but it was time to either invest ~$10k in new sails AND major rebuild... ie marry it... or sell cheap. But it was fun to sail, good in light air, responsive and not punishing, relatively dry (high freeboard).

They're fun to sail but they are also commonly mentioned in threads discussing twitchy or broach-y boats.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/43110001@N08/albums/72157643036677233

Since then I've been sailing/racing  a Buccaneer which is a nice simple boat.

FB- Doug

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15 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

But honestly in the Chesapeake, J27...  

J27 yes.  If you could stretch it 2 more feet, the J29 is an awesome all around boat on the Bay, masthead version.

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I'll add one other thought.  I know you're primarily looking for PHRF boat, but I suggest looking for a boat that raced one-design on the Bay.   That will help when/if you decide to sell it, but also there's a huge body of knowledge that can be applied to making the boat fast.   Additionally, if it's raced one-design, the PHRF rating is usually "reasonable" since there are enough of them to truly establish and refine a rating over the long-term.   Using your 25-27 foot criterion, I'd suggest the J/80 as a  reasonably fast boat that can be raced in both PHRF and one-design.   There were also enough of them built, that you should be able to find one on the market at any point in time.   

 

Joe

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1 hour ago, ACampbell8303 said:

That's what I'm talking about. I will check it out. You guys run a 155% on her?

Yeah.  155 AP and rate 171 here in Utah.  174 in SoCal and Arizona.  Just last Feb we won the Arizona YC Birthday regatta PHRF Spin class against 2 Olson 30's, Hobie 33, J/29, Impulse 26, Martin 242, Olson 25, J/24, Santana 23D and Merit 22.  We have a great set of racing sails, a smooth bottom and for bigger regattas strip the boat of anything not required by law or PHRF.  Local club racing we carry more beer and cushions since we sleep on it as well but still win our share of races.  As others have said, light air is best but we can now hold our own in bigger breezes.  I've owned the boat for 4 years.  

Lots of pics here:

https://www.facebook.com/capri25littlewing/

Deck project write up here:

https://boatnotes.com/uncategorized/new-life-old-favorite-capri-25-gets-groove.html

And a little SW story:

https://www.sailingworld.com/my-class-my-story-capri-25/

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"Steam Flyer"

Santana 23:

"There's a few around that have had the plywood deck completely rebuilt... they're a time bomb. I did some rebuilding on mine including the daggerboard trunk & tabbing, but it was time to either invest ~$10k in new sails AND major rebuild... ie marry it... or sell cheap. But it was fun to sail, good in light air, responsive and not punishing, relatively dry (high freeboard)."

I saw and sailed one in 'Naptown at the boatshow when it was introduced. Can't remember which one (1985???) as i worked everyone from 1982 through 1990 when i got out of yacht sales and marine finance.

I  was in the market for a 20-25 boat, not to race as i crewed on larger boats on the fore deck  mostly but sometimes on the helm downwind. In any event I checked out the Santana 23, Beneteau 23 and a Hunter 23 (I think it was - didn't like or sail or consider it). wife loved the B-23 especially the interior setup with a private-ish head. Sailed it and liked it okay but it didn't really make me lust for it. Sailed the Santana and loved it, wifey okay with it but not overwhelmed. I the end a boatyard buddy took a Santana 20 in trade on a much larger "yachtie" type boat and offered me the 'Tuna' with fresh bottom paint and and a  practically new suit of 5 sails for $2000. Guess what I bought?

I really was impressed with the S-23 and at times wish we'd gotten her as opposed to the 'Tuna' but the deal was too good to turn down. Did beer can her and did well, not great but enough to keep us happy with effort.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Rain Man said:

The Capri's are legendary light air rockets.

If you want a light air rocket then a Capri 30 is the boat.  I raced against one back in the day.  Under 8 knots of wind and he was impossible to beat.  Once the wind got to and over 10 we would regularly beat him.  The stronger the breeze the less competitive he was

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a little bigger than you want

 

DSC_0326.JPG

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Beneteau Platu 25 is a fun light air killer 

I have one with a custom carbon sprit and like it a lot 

basically a mini Farr 30 

I also have an older Figaro 1 so may consider selling  one of them

Platu has a trailer  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7CB6C8F7-38AB-4F36-AC51-FD8DF6278FD4.jpeg

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The only issue in this thread is that everything we've talked about here is going to be 25-30 years old.  I bought my Capri 25 for a song, but it has taken a lot of work to get her to be fast, safe and comfortable.  I love the work.  For me it's part of the hobby.  But it will take some looking to find well prepared examples of the boats we're talking about.  Maybe that's a given.  Just thought I'd point it out.

Capri 30 hull #1 is here at the Great Salt Lake.  It's been on the hard for 10 years.  I bet it could be purchased for $1000 but it needs $20k worth of work. 

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1 hour ago, JoeRinMD said:

I'll add one other thought.  I know you're primarily looking for PHRF boat, but I suggest looking for a boat that raced one-design on the Bay.   That will help when/if you decide to sell it, but also there's a huge body of knowledge that can be applied to making the boat fast.   Additionally, if it's raced one-design, the PHRF rating is usually "reasonable" since there are enough of them to truly establish and refine a rating over the long-term.   Using your 25-27 foot criterion, I'd suggest the J/80 as a  reasonably fast boat that can be raced in both PHRF and one-design.   There were also enough of them built, that you should be able to find one on the market at any point in time.   

 

Joe

Ya J80 is a good all around boat too, and easy to sail.

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If your only requirements are good performance to your rating in light air, take a look at some early fiberglass full-keel designs. They lean over and stop in heavy air, but they outsail their rating like crazy in the light stuff. Plus you can get a project boat with solid bones for a song and have plenty left over for sails. There's a Pearson Electra in my fleet that's a light-air rocketship, and something like an Ariel or Commander might do nicely for your length range. Bonus point if you can find a centerboarder. Some of those old fiberglass tanks often have solid decks, so there's nothing to recore. Or get a Melges or J/80. I acknowledge my tastes are eclectic.

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Evelyn 26.

Killer in the light, and the heavy.

Sent you a PM.

--Matt

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3 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

The only issue in this thread is that everything we've talked about here is going to be 25-30 years old.  I bought my Capri 25 for a song, but it has taken a lot of work to get her to be fast, safe and comfortable.  I love the work.  For me it's part of the hobby.  But it will take some looking to find well prepared examples of the boats we're talking about.  Maybe that's a given.  Just thought I'd point it out.

Capri 30 hull #1 is here at the Great Salt Lake.  It's been on the hard for 10 years.  I bet it could be purchased for $1000 but it needs $20k worth of work. 

Platu is 1997 but looks way more modern especially with the prod

Similar to the J80 but solid glass and very solid 

steers much better upwind 

have sailed both boats a lot 

also prefer the lines 

 

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5 minutes ago, jetfuel said:

Platu is 1997 but looks way more modern especially with the prod

Ok, 23 years old.  You got me.

I was thinking when we were in AZ if PHRF racing should be called "Vintage" racing instead.  Our boats are old AF! :)

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Figure the price of a new 25 -27 foot racing boat and you’re close to $100 k

brutal 

would probably ask 20k Canadian for the Platu with the trailer 

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Other than that I would pick up a Melges 24

onlu reason I did it is I couldn’t dry sail it at my club and wanted a strong boat with little maintenance so the Platu fit the bull plus I like the look of it 

hate ugly boats lol

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50 minutes ago, jetfuel said:

Figure the price of a new 25 -27 foot racing boat and you’re close to $100 k

brutal 

would probably ask 20k Canadian for the Platu with the trailer 

Sounds like someone is trying top sell their Platu!

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Don’t know 

probably going to sell one of them 

Perhaps the Figaro 

don’t need 2 

was considering buying a cruiser boat if I sold tbe Figaro and keep the Platu for daysailing  and racing 

Figaro pic below 

DA562460-942E-4B6F-88F3-21BF939E2827.jpeg

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Torn because I really like both of them 

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Right now I cannot even go to either as our club is locked up 

depressing lol 

not working and cannot sail but at least I’m getting paid still 

I saw a Beneteau 35 I liked but cannot cross the border either lol 

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All racing has been cancellef where I live I usually to the Lake Ontario 300 double handed on the Figaro and the 100 miler on the Platu 

hopefully they open up a few double handed races later in the summer 

not likely to have any regatta’s this yr 

where do you sail out of ?

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, JoeRinMD said:

Additionally, if it's raced one-design, the PHRF rating is usually "reasonable" since there are enough of them to truly establish and refine a rating over the long-term.

But I think he wants something without a reasonable PHRF rating, in order to win. And that hurts the sport by frustrating other competitors until they give up or getting for their own phrf cheater.

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Well, the S2 7.9's have been cleaning up in our area against some much more pricey boats. 

One I crewed on was JAM boat of the 2020 year for the Lake Erie ILYA 

(Full disclosure - I own one) 

They can be sailed with full-on PHRF, or JAM with one or two crew. 

The BIG bonus they bring is a very roomy area down below for weekending, coastal cruising, 

big cockpit with high coamings for kids, or nervous relatives 

A huge advantage is that deck issues can be worked on easily from down below - no liners 

S2 7.9 Questions - Sailing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

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23 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

we've got two of them for sale in my neighborhood,  both for  <7.5K

in case anyone is serious... i'm not affiliated, i wish i had spare cash

https://dallas.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=wavelength

i consider 25' range a perfect size lake boat..

00V0V_dqpe5RnpkzC_600x450.jpg

 

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4 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

in case anyone is serious... i'm not affiliated, i wish i had spare cash

https://dallas.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=wavelength 

 

https://dallas.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=wavelength

I embedded the link - those are some good buys, one is $5k.  I always have mixed emotions about someone wanting a PHRF winner, the Capri 25 is a giant killer in light air flat water.  Anything that has a big 1 design fleet is going to have a tough rating - Melges 24 for instance.  The S2 7.9 is the most boat you can get in that size range, I came very close to buying the inboard version when they first came out.  To race in his area going to want something with a big headsail and spin. 

If you keep the boat long enough the purchase price is a small fraction of the ownership cost sez Capt. Obvious.

 

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Still telling yeah, we were all smiles tonight on our Melges lake sailing PHRF.  Saw couple 13.7s in puff around 20.  No broaching despite our crew trying their best to foul the kite.  Bunch of oldsters on the lake having more fun than kids in the Lasers and whooping the puffs.  Bunch of cheap Melges 24s in the first 300 hulls to be had now.  They are absolutely useless against the latest 700 and 800 hulls that get $50K in equipment annually for the big stuff, but wow what fun they are beating up your local club cows and pigs sloping around the course.

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10 hours ago, JimBowie said:

Still telling yeah, we were all smiles tonight on our Melges lake sailing PHRF.  Saw couple 13.7s in puff around 20.  No broaching despite our crew trying their best to foul the kite.  Bunch of oldsters on the lake having more fun than kids in the Lasers and whooping the puffs.  Bunch of cheap Melges 24s in the first 300 hulls to be had now.  They are absolutely useless against the latest 700 and 800 hulls that get $50K in equipment annually for the big stuff, but wow what fun they are beating up your local club cows and pigs sloping around the course.

What do you think a mid range shape Hull 250 should go for? Most I'm seeing asks in the $15-$20k range. When you add things up, the well sorted 700 and 800 series hull actually look like better value, i.e this ride I'm guessing can be had for the low 40's, and has 2 brand new sets of sails, $20k right there, so you're paying $20k for a sorted Devoti...maybe there are some options in the 100 series range for under $10k? I get the impression the O.P is looking for a boat in the $5k range, but forgetting that slip fees and 1 new sail per annum add up to more than that.

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1 hour ago, samc99us said:

What do you think a mid range shape Hull 250 should go for? Most I'm seeing asks in the $15-$20k range. When you add things up, the well sorted 700 and 800 series hull actually look like better value, i.e this ride I'm guessing can be had for the low 40's, and has 2 brand new sets of sails, $20k right there, so you're paying $20k for a sorted Devoti...maybe there are some options in the 100 series range for under $10k? I get the impression the O.P is looking for a boat in the $5k range, but forgetting that slip fees and 1 new sail per annum add up to more than that.

I bought my boat 4 years ago for $3k but have spent 3x's that since.  That's the way it goes with older boats.  Holes in the water where you throw money, right?  Re-reading the OP, a "project" is what he's looking for.

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23 hours ago, jetfuel said:

Beneteau Platu 25 is a fun light air killer 

I have one with a custom carbon sprit and like it a lot 

basically a mini Farr 30 

I also have an older Figaro 1 so may consider selling  one of them

Platu has a trailer  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fig 1 is one of my "dream" boats

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On 5/20/2020 at 10:42 PM, ACampbell8303 said:

I grew up racing a Morgan 27 on the bay. Beer can racing is the heart and soul of the sport. I don’t have a lot of money but can make a boat go. Come race with me when I find my rocket!

Get a Morgan 27.  Especially if you can do some work on it.  Could get one very cheap I imagine as they had some issues.  The one I had did very well in PHRF around NE FL in the late 80's, when people actually sailed around here.

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1 hour ago, samc99us said:

What do you think a mid range shape Hull 250 should go for? Most I'm seeing asks in the $15-$20k range. When you add things up, the well sorted 700 and 800 series hull actually look like better value, i.e this ride I'm guessing can be had for the low 40's, and has 2 brand new sets of sails, $20k right there, so you're paying $20k for a sorted Devoti...maybe there are some options in the 100 series range for under $10k? I get the impression the O.P is looking for a boat in the $5k range, but forgetting that slip fees and 1 new sail per annum add up to more than that.

You only need 700+ if you're gonna do the circuit.  801 is for sale recently $52K.  For what he wants any $20K Melges beater will be better than he needs to whoop ass locally.

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