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That's an interesting picture of the cut out rot.

I wonder how hard it would be to remove the chock piece the block is mounted on to let you 'square up' (or is that "rectangle up") the cut out.

 

I must admit, on a boat this old, I would be taking a somewhat simplier approach to patching the hole than the 'fethering' approach (especially a 7 to 1 or greater) spoken of above.

I'd simply square the edges of both the cut and the carefully measured replacement panel, the cut a second slightly bigger overlap rectangle, cut out the inside of this second one, so there was a 1/2 overlap with the replacment panel, precut the hole for the bailer, then use the hole for the bailer to let me clamp the new pieces in place with some deep length clamps.

 

No doubt the perfectionist will disagree, and the overlap rectangle will be obvious in the floor of the boat, but it gets the job done.

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53 minutes ago, Rambler said:

That's an interesting picture of the cut out rot.

I wonder how hard it would be to remove the chock piece the block is mounted on to let you 'square up' (or is that "rectangle up") the cut out.

 

I must admit, on a boat this old, I would be taking a somewhat simplier approach to patching the hole than the 'fethering' approach (especially a 7 to 1 or greater) spoken of above.

I'd simply square the edges of both the cut and the carefully measured replacement panel, the cut a second slightly bigger overlap rectangle, cut out the inside of this second one, so there was a 1/2 overlap with the replacment panel, precut the hole for the bailer, then use the hole for the bailer to let me clamp the new pieces in place with some deep length clamps.

 

No doubt the perfectionist will disagree, and the overlap rectangle will be obvious in the floor of the boat, but it gets the job done.

That would work but then why bother putting the bailer back? It won't drain.
You could also feather the edges and lay up fiberglass in the hole, against a temporary waxed dam...that's the swampy way to fix it.

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59 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

...... why bother putting the bailer back? It won't drain.

I presume you mean the 6mm raised edge surrounding it would stop every last drop from getting there?

Maybe, but allowing for the slope of the bottom and the general movement of the boat, the residual water would be pretty minimal. So the bailer would still do most of the job. And you could sand down a narrow water access channel in the top piece if you wanted to be really fastidious about it 

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11 minutes ago, Rambler said:

I presume you mean the 6mm raised edge surrounding it would stop every last drop from getting there?

Maybe, but allowing for the slope of the bottom and the general movement of the boat, the residual water would be pretty minimal. So the bailer would still do most of the job. And you could sand down a narrow water access channel in the top piece if you wanted to be really fastidious about it 

Yes, of  course. But remember also that this is the "internal" style bailer too...

We'll see what Admiral does with it. So far he is making a lot of progress. Made quick work of the deck varnish.

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On 6/5/2020 at 2:16 PM, Admiral Hornblower said:

Any suggestions for fishing it back down the mast?

A "wire snake" can be used for fishing. Relatively cheap and easy to keep in your sailing tool box. Get one with smaller diameter "snake".  

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20 hours ago, Alan Crawford said:

A "wire snake" can be used for fishing. Relatively cheap and easy to keep in your sailing tool box. Get one with smaller diameter "snake".  

I keep a length of ‘beaded’ bathroom chain in the toolbox. It’s thin enough to carry a mousing line through sheaves and exit holes, and heavy enough to fall down the mast pulling a very thin line behind it. Just make sure all the other lines inside the mast are taut to avoid twists and snags. 

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Here are some shots of the thwarts. There are some holes in them that look like were meant for control line cleats, but I can't make out why they wouldn't be there still. Did someone remove them? Plus what control lines would have cleats on the thwart anyway?

DSCN3257.thumb.JPG.7ed7811f0abbf108027dac020ee397a0.JPGDSCN3256.thumb.JPG.0bf0d5467ad775410e76cc0f4d88767e.JPG

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54 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Here are some shots of the thwarts. There are some holes in them that look like were meant for control line cleats, but I can't make out why they wouldn't be there still. Did someone remove them? Plus what control lines would have cleats on the thwart anyway?

DSCN3257.thumb.JPG.7ed7811f0abbf108027dac020ee397a0.JPGDSCN3256.thumb.JPG.0bf0d5467ad775410e76cc0f4d88767e.JPG

Those look like poorly placed spinnaker blocks and cleats. Really the only time you would actually use those cleats are for tidying up the lines when the spinnaker is stowed. You will see plenty of options in the sources provided already. Sounds like you are having fun!

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Oh - and crews hate cleats on the thwart...

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9 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Here are some shots of the thwarts. There are some holes in them that look like were meant for control line cleats, but I can't make out why they wouldn't be there still. Did someone remove them? Plus what control lines would have cleats on the thwart anyway?

DSCN3257.thumb.JPG.7ed7811f0abbf108027dac020ee397a0.JPGDSCN3256.thumb.JPG.0bf0d5467ad775410e76cc0f4d88767e.JPG

That might be the best place to put the spinnaker blocks, normally they would be a bit further forward attached to the side tank, but if no reinforcements were put in when building then were they are might be the safest place. Does your boat have hooks for the guys or twinning lines? I would look at a standard Winder setup to find a bunch of clever solution fit outs

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6 hours ago, Major Tom said:

That might be the best place to put the spinnaker blocks, normally they would be a bit further forward attached to the side tank, but if no reinforcements were put in when building then were they are might be the safest place. Does your boat have hooks for the guys or twinning lines? I would look at a standard Winder setup to find a bunch of clever solution fit outs

Thanks. Where could I find images of the Winder setups?

It has guy hooks, not twinning lines.

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Quick question, Admiral. The boat was free, so you are well ahead of the game. But do you have a budget for this project? From what I can see, you have a lot of rigging that is very dated. Some of it will certainly still "work", but all the Harken bits and various cleats I see are ready for replacement. And line, too. Only reason I ask is you may need to prioritize. And then there are sails...

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1 hour ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Thanks. Where could I find images of the Winder setups?

Winder setup and lots more here. http://www.draycotewater.co.uk/fleets/fireball/html/rigging__articles___info.html.

There was also a useful set of schematics I saw ages ago. I’ll see if they can be resurrected.

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2 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Quick question, Admiral. The boat was free, so you are well ahead of the game. But do you have a budget for this project? From what I can see, you have a lot of rigging that is very dated. Some of it will certainly still "work", but all the Harken bits and various cleats I see are ready for replacement. And line, too. Only reason I ask is you may need to prioritize. And then there are sails...

Very true Bill. I am really just trying to get the boat out on the water and then fine tune afterwords, mabey in the winter when I can't sail.

Sails, the boat came with a set of sails in good condition and some one else has also offered us a set; so I think we are good on that for now.

 

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I just has to share this video I found. Mostly because starting at 6:20 there is a Fireball simply BLASTING along at draw dropping speed. And the spray...!

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1 hour ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

I just has to share this video I found. Mostly because starting at 6:20 there is a Fireball simply BLASTING along at draw dropping speed. And the spray...!

Great video! Dunno if you know this, the Flying Fifteen class has a ballasted keel under them, they still move right along.

At about 7"13 or so, Fireball 15042 does a fairly spectacular capsize which begins by tripping over the end of the boom. Several 'balls flirt with this disaster (which a lot of fast boats, definitely including Lasers and 470s are prone to) earlier in the video but none them really dig in and fly out of control. It looks like they capsize because of a roll to windward which swipes the crew off the trapeze (teabagging) but it begins with the boom digging and the helm responding by fighting to head up.... because he CAN'T ease the main.

The answer is to ease the vang as it begins, although this is also perilous because it lets the upper mast spring around more wildly, and makes the boat harder to steer. But playing the vang should definitely be among your heavy air tricks.

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Great video! Dunno if you know this, the Flying Fifteen class has a ballasted keel under them, they still move right along.

At about 7"13 or so, Fireball 15042 does a fairly spectacular capsize which begins by tripping over the end of the boom. Several 'balls flirt with this disaster (which a lot of fast boats, definitely including Lasers and 470s are prone to) earlier in the video but none them really dig in and fly out of control. It looks like they capsize because of a roll to windward which swipes the crew off the trapeze (teabagging) but it begins with the boom digging and the helm responding by fighting to head up.... because he CAN'T ease the main.

The answer is to ease the vang as it begins, although this is also perilous because it lets the upper mast spring around more wildly, and makes the boat harder to steer. But playing the vang should definitely be among your heavy air tricks.

FB- Doug

Initially too much Vang and sailing with too much heel, if the boat was flatter there  would have been more reaction time available to handle the gust, helm was also fiddling around in the boat so ended up over reacting causing the crew to loose balance. Lesson here, always sail the boat as flat as possible all the time.

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What does the slot gasket on your boat look like?  Without a good one, you'll find that in a decent breeze you'll get quite the rooster tail of water out of the centerboard trunk 

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DSCN3268.thumb.JPG.1debec58166af1bebb5b117764b4cc2e.JPG

The finished patch with fiberglass cloth and epoxy, on the outside

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How is this rudder held down? Is a pin supposed to go in that hole in the rudder there?

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This bailer came with the boat, does it look functional? BTW, what is supposed to happen when I move that handle?

DSCN3276.thumb.JPG.6540b0349e531dd37b3a2087e22878e0.JPG

JeremyK, here is a picture of the centerboard gasket.

And lastly, could someone send me a pic of how the centerboard uphaul/downhaul is rigged on their boat?

Thanks, Admiral.

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Moving the handle should close the bailer.

Tip... when you capsize, the FIRST thing to do is push/hit/kick the bailer so it is flush with the hull. The edges are sharp and attracted to feet/shins/thighs/wetsuits etc

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8 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Thanks, but when I move the handle, nothing happens! and I can't find any sign of something broken.

It doesn't look broken. Are you moving the handle forward and down?

image.png.1e5b8afc507cdcdaf15e3a7df396b535.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, before you move it, get some teflon spray lube and hit the sides of the bailer where it goes thru, and the bearing part(s) of the handle. These things get very stiff and friction takes a toll

 

You've just discovered one of the things I dislike about suction (Elvstrom) bailers. But they're better than nothing, in a single-hull boat.

FB- Doug

 

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27 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

It doesn't look broken. Are you moving the handle forward and down?

image.png.1e5b8afc507cdcdaf15e3a7df396b535.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, before you move it, get some teflon spray lube and hit the sides of the bailer where it goes thru, and the bearing part(s) of the handle. These things get very stiff and friction takes a toll

 

You've just discovered one of the things I dislike about suction (Elvstrom) bailers. But they're better than nothing, in a single-hull boat.

FB- Doug

 

Ahh! Thanks! I got it to work now.

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Way to go Admiral! An admirable job!  Somehow I knew you'd sort that hole in the bottom out with no problem. Keep up the good work.

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Looks similar to my 505 (except in your photo, something looks strange or even backwards?). In my case, you can see the pin that goes through the hole in the rudderhead and the hole in the rudder blade. But I NEVER use that metal pin unless I am in totally reliably deep water. Instead, we carry dowels. My helmsman has a handful of them in his lifejacket pocket. You hit some thing, they shear off. Very useful. On my old 505, I broke a transom--and a rudder--in one swell foop running aground. Sailing in rivers or shoaly places, the kickup is great. Some people use one piece rudders (like my old one) because they are lighter and no slop, but you can make a rudderhead rudder slop free too.

 

50015123827_19b4f0d83c_k.jpg

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That rudder will have a pin through that how to keep it down. We used red plastic ones that sheared off if you hit something, seem to be very hard to get hold of now. Never metal as they won't shear and you'll destroy the blade. Wood dowels swell when they get wet and are a bastard to get out.

I'd look to fit a rope downhaul, probably on 2 to 1.

Need pictures of the gasket with the board up, that's when you can tell if it's fucked. At least it's still attached, so low priority I'd say.

You can put those bailers up and down with your feet, but you will fuck them up so don't.

If they leak when down at low speed then they're bent. Most old bailers are bent and leak. Get a sponge and live with it.

Some centreboards use a brake rather than downhaul. They're brilliant but quite hard to adjust right.

Sort the rudder, get a loop of shock cord to go over the top of the board to hold it down and just go sailing. Then you'll see what's important.

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4 hours ago, European Bloke said:

That rudder will have a pin through that how to keep it down. We used red plastic ones that sheared off if you hit something, seem to be very hard to get hold of now. Never metal as they won't shear and you'll destroy the blade. Wood dowels swell when they get wet and are a bastard to get out.

I'd look to fit a rope downhaul, probably on 2 to 1.

Need pictures of the gasket with the board up, that's when you can tell if it's fucked. At least it's still attached, so low priority I'd say.

You can put those bailers up and down with your feet, but you will fuck them up so don't.

If they leak when down at low speed then they're bent. Most old bailers are bent and leak. Get a sponge and live with it.

Some centreboards use a brake rather than downhaul. They're brilliant but quite hard to adjust right.

Sort the rudder, get a loop of shock cord to go over the top of the board to hold it down and just go sailing. Then you'll see what's important.

I will add my vote to the 2:1 rope downhaul for the rudder. Pins just don’t work very well. This is because the blade is fairly long and narrow, so any movement at the tip is felt a lot at the tiller. You do need a breakout cleat for the line though otherwise it’s no better than a steel pin! This: https://www.pinbax.com/index.asp?Details=29261&mc=Hardware&sc=Cleats&ssc=Clamcleats

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6 hours ago, GBRNoah said:

I will add my vote to the 2:1 rope downhaul for the rudder. Pins just don’t work very well. This is because the blade is fairly long and narrow, so any movement at the tip is felt a lot at the tiller. You do need a breakout cleat for the line though otherwise it’s no better than a steel pin! This: https://www.pinbax.com/index.asp?Details=29261&mc=Hardware&sc=Cleats&ssc=Clamcleats

Remember sailing at Hayling in the mid 90s on a deLange with an Aussie rudder, it was about the same length as the CB, used pins to hold it down, the RO set the upwind start 100 m downwind of a bar in an outgoing tide, snapped the pin going upwind in 25 knots plus, I was over the back trying to get the rudder down and a new pin in while Hector was helming from the wire, good times!

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15 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Looks similar to my 505 (except in your photo, something looks strange or even backwards?). 

I agree - it looks like the blade is in backwards. Judging from the photo below, the gudgeon on the rudder head is blocked by the rudder blade. Try attaching it to the boat and see what happens. I am betting you need to flip it around. 

image.png.97368777beb5816e8725ba07169408e8.png

 

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50 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I agree - it looks like the blade is in backwards. Judging from the photo below, the gudgeon on the rudder head is blocked by the rudder blade. Try attaching it to the boat and see what happens. I am betting you need to flip it around. 

image.png.97368777beb5816e8725ba07169408e8.png

 

It's hard to be cirtain but I don't think it's the wrong way around, just down too far. The missing pin in the hole in the blade would push against the middle lower leg in the stock structure. The gudgeon would then be clear.

The thick edge of the foil is the leading edge, the fine one the trailing edge. Hard to see thick and fine in that image.

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13 hours ago, European Bloke said:

That rudder will have a pin through that how to keep it down. We used red plastic ones that sheared off if you hit something, seem to be very hard to get hold of now. Never metal as they won't shear and you'll destroy the blade. Wood dowels swell when they get wet and are a bastard to get out.

 

I've never had that problem. Go to hardware store, buy dowel that is just undersize or if they don't have it, whittle/sand to suit. The metal pin that is hanging there on a lanyard will push put the dowel every time. I've gone through as many as 4 dowels in one river race!

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1 hour ago, European Bloke said:

It's hard to be cirtain but I don't think it's the wrong way around, just down too far. The missing pin in the hole in the blade would push against the middle lower leg in the stock structure. The gudgeon would then be clear.

The thick edge of the foil is the leading edge, the fine one the trailing edge. Hard to see thick and fine in that image.

Agreed with European. I think the thin edge is further away.  I think that there's a chance that the rudder was fitted to a different rudder head at one point making it appear that something is wrong.  Plus, you don't have a lip like that on the trailing edge.  It's on the leading edge as a stop against the rudder head.

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2 hours ago, European Bloke said:

It's hard to be cirtain but I don't think it's the wrong way around, just down too far. The missing pin in the hole in the blade would push against the middle lower leg in the stock structure. The gudgeon would then be clear.

The thick edge of the foil is the leading edge, the fine one the trailing edge. Hard to see thick and fine in that image.

Hmmm. If you swing the blade back, and put the pin in the hole as you suggest, it would prevent the rudder from going down any further - would it not? One would think it would be a preventer from the rudder floating up.  Maybe SPC is right - it is from a different assembly. I also can't figure out the actual holes in the blade. And, adding to the confusion (at least for me) I agree the thick edge looks to be in the right spot. 

Hey @Admiral Hornblower - stick it on the boat and take a photo!

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Here are some pics of the rudder on the boat. I used a wood dowel and taped a lanyard to it as a pin to hold it in place.The rudder gudgeon/pintle arrangement seems a bit unusual...hopefully the pics show why.DSCN3280.thumb.JPG.b22d7d237f38a9a8710ee925042cc57a.JPGDSCN3282.thumb.JPG.73c8b45af704ebf122f22f150075af56.JPGDSCN3283.thumb.JPG.8f3497a867bad4c9b5a4d22f2828a088.JPGDSCN3284.thumb.JPG.6d33cfedd35b4f7005e3771cdef08ac1.JPGDSCN3292.thumb.JPG.9b89742d7715cec2d6c774afcf366b3a.JPG

front edge of rudder...

 

DSCN3295.thumb.JPG.09c7d6d5db3175d5bc799ba5b7ba3fba.JPG

aft edge.

 

DSCN3286.thumb.JPG.756d6bd587f84fddf3456eeef76fb84f.JPG

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34 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Here are some pics of the rudder on the boat. I used a wood dowel and taped a lanyard to it as a pin to hold it in place.The rudder gudgeon/pintle arrangement seems a bit unusual...hopefully the pics show why.DSCN3284.thumb.JPG.6d33cfedd35b4f7005e3771cdef08ac1.JPG

 

 

The retaining clip should be lower.  It should be just above the pin and have to be pushed toward the hull to remove the rudder box. For double security use a pin through the hole as well

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3 hours ago, Rushman said:

The retaining clip should be lower.  It should be just above the pin and have to be pushed toward the hull to remove the rudder box. For double security use a pin through the hole as well

I was just about to say, that I think that the rudder retaining clip proves that the rudder head has been changed as it doesn't line up with this rudder head at all. I think that there used to be a different rudder head that used Sea Sure gudgeons that would be thicker and taller and would have gotten closer to that clip.  

I don't believe that you want the rudder swept forward like that but @fastyacht can let us know what's best there.  

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9 minutes ago, WCB said:

I don't believe that you want the rudder swept forward like that but @fastyacht can let us know what's best there.  

Sweeping the rudder forward will give it better balance, ie some area in front of the pivot point, more area behind. I have no idea if it is necessary on a Fireball but it is essential on the Hobie 18 I have.

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1 minute ago, Rushman said:

Sweeping the rudder forward will give it better balance, ie some area in front of the pivot point, more area behind. I have no idea if it is necessary on a Fireball but it is essential on the Hobie 18 I have.

I agree that it's out there and some designs have it, but I just haven't seen it on boats like these. My HA 505 foils are vertical on the leading edge, nothing forward.

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It appears to be a mismatched rudder/head assembly, but looks like it will work. But it is definitely a ruddah from anuddah muddah.

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It's cirtainly frankenboat, but it'll work.

Bend the retaining clip down, then move it down the transom until it holds the rudder on.

I would expect the leading edge of the rudder to be roughly vertical. More forward less feel, more back more feel. Too much forward gives crazy load and snaps expensive stuff off.

You I'd drill out the pin hole to at least 10mm, fill with epoxy and redrill in the correct place.

Actually I wouldn't, I'll drill and fill and then add a 2:1 rudder downhaul as discussed above, with a stop at vertical.

There a few things on a racing dinghy that must work and must be bullet proof. They include shit that holds the rig up, the vang and the rudder. No half measures there. I've just bought my daughter a new boat, so we're going through it too.

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9 hours ago, WCB said:

I was just about to say, that I think that the rudder retaining clip proves that the rudder head has been changed as it doesn't line up with this rudder head at all. I think that there used to be a different rudder head that used Sea Sure gudgeons that would be thicker and taller and would have gotten closer to that clip.  

I don't believe that you want the rudder swept forward like that but @fastyacht can let us know what's best there.  

Dinghies with highly adjustable sloop rigs, and balanced hullforms such as the fireball and 505 do not generate excessive weather helm and do not need balance to compensate. Further, very high aspect blades have very little leverage to begin with. The little bit of helm you feel is part of the feedback system. Too little, and you move the helm too much without realizing it.

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4 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Dinghies with highly adjustable sloop rigs, and balanced hullforms such as the fireball and 505 do not generate excessive weather helm and do not need balance to compensate. Further, very high aspect blades have very little leverage to begin with. The little bit of helm you feel is part of the feedback system. Too little, and you move the helm too much without realizing it.

So, does it matter if it's swept forward, or should I move it back?

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24 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

So, does it matter if it's swept forward, or should I move it back?

I preferred the feel of my previous boat with a slightly swept forward leading edge. Wasn’t much - a half inch or so forward measured at the tip. Current boat has the standard Winder rudder and is, as far as I can tell, dead vertical.

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2 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

So, does it matter if it's swept forward, or should I move it back?

 

2 hours ago, GBRNoah said:

I preferred the feel of my previous boat with a slightly swept forward leading edge. Wasn’t much - a half inch or so forward measured at the tip. Current boat has the standard Winder rudder and is, as far as I can tell, dead vertical.

Sail it and see how it feels.

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high again. I was planning to sail the boat this weekend, but due to a delayed installation of a trailer hitch to our car, looks like unfortunately it won't be able to happen until next weekend.

In the meantime, I am going to sort out some more of the rigging, namely the spinnaker.

first question I have concerns the pole storage system. The boom has two pvc loops to presumably to hold the spinnaker pole, but, I have no idea how it should be held in those loops.  I am not looking for the latest and greatest, but just something functional. 

DSCN3298.thumb.JPG.e2e3a338c8842d9b2decbdd333ba6c94.JPG

First thing I noticed, that I thought might have something to do with that, was this small block on the boom...

DSCN3299.thumb.JPG.0d77f1983d7c9c4db1a1d8548e2142df.JPG

...than traveling down the boom past  the spinnaker loops(?) another one.

DSCN3300.thumb.JPG.d49ffd4f753d805cf7f8d5b0417e6a01.JPG

DSCN3306.thumb.JPG.862b0d325f71f12bcd25cfa08ddd0ae3.JPGDSCN3307.thumb.JPG.82295c4e9166dd5252e9bf81dd360636.JPG

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No quick answer here. I can guess, but we should look at a photo of your topping lift/downhaul set up as well as the spinnaker pole.

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All the poles I saw a few years ago on fireballas were end for end (unlike 505 in the current double pole arrangement, and most 505 before that and also FD, which have a launcher setup so that you would have to pull the pole back during gybe.) When you gybe end for end, you pull pole off mast, attach to old sheet, then release former guy.

The toppinglift/foreguy was connected, and had a shock cord takeup on the foreguy. When you pull the pole off the boom, you'd put the end into the guy, then "catch" the foreguy/toppinglift, then push pole out and attach to mast. They had made theswe "catch" grooves on the poles using epoxy and microballoons. In older times this was done by merely mounting a couple bulls-eyes close to each other. I have an ancient 505 pole like that kicking around here.

I don't remember the details of the storage of the pole, darn it.

One of the Fireball guys -- weigh in please.

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

All the poles I saw a few years ago on fireballas were end for end (unlike 505 in the current double pole arrangement, and most 505 before that and also FD, which have a launcher setup so that you would have to pull the pole back during gybe.) When you gybe end for end, you pull pole off mast, attach to old sheet, then release former guy.

The toppinglift/foreguy was connected, and had a shock cord takeup on the foreguy. When you pull the pole off the boom, you'd put the end into the guy, then "catch" the foreguy/toppinglift, then push pole out and attach to mast. They had made theswe "catch" grooves on the poles using epoxy and microballoons. In older times this was done by merely mounting a couple bulls-eyes close to each other. I have an ancient 505 pole like that kicking around here.

I don't remember the details of the storage of the pole, darn it.

One of the Fireball guys -- weigh in please.

My old experience had pole launchers as you have described for the FD. But that was in the early ‘90’s...

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The tape on your boom would have been to hold the mainsheet up so it doesn’t wrap around your neck during a tack or gybe.

There were 2 different pole systems from long ago, one used bridles for the topping lift and downhaul, the other one used a ramp on the side of the pole with a oval stainless ring that had the topping lift and downhaul attached to it, it locked onto a slot in the middle of the ramp and if you twisted the pole 90 degrees it released from the ramp. It was kept captive on the pole by the trip line for the beaks.

 

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Conventional system for a double ended pole today is with the ramp on the side of the pole, but we use a rope ‘ring’ instead of the  the stainless. It’s a length of 5mm long enough to make a loop that the ramp will pass through. Not too tight, not too loose. Tie the short end to the uphaul (goes to a cleat the helm can reach), and the long end to the downhaul (which is tied to an elastic take-up alongside the centreboard case). As Major Tom has said, the pole is secured by the trip line. When not in use the elastic on the downhaul keeps the pole snug against the mast at just above gooseneck height.

F7DFA080-9597-4C21-868B-B7081C1D9929.jpeg

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I'm wondering if the blocks on the boom had something to do with a bungy system. A few of the 'balls I sailed in Canada had a bungy that went from the end of the boom, around the front of the mast and back to the other end. It used a conventional pole and ends but had the topping lift led to one end and a pulley attached at the other that the bungy went through. It meant that when you popped the pole it kinda slid along the bungy at the back end. It also meant you did this "three point turn" thing when gybing, but it sort of worked pretty good. Trip the pole in the gybe and let it slide back, gybe the main and then pull it back out on the new side.

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 Thanks everyone for your replies, I am going to use GBRNoah's system for the spinnaker pole and since I really liked Jethrow's idea for a pole stowage system I am going to try that.

On 6/5/2020 at 3:39 PM, Major Tom said:

Vang is probably missing an initial 3:1 purchase which would give you a 18:1 final purchase, perfectly acceptable for a boat of that vintage. The jib fairlead was most likely a floating block attached to a block either on the foreword centreboard casing strut or a reinforcing block bonded on the floor of the boat more or less in line with the centreboard pivot bolt.

I am working on the jib lead system also and was wondering what a 'floating block' ment? Also, If anybody has any better ideas for a simple jib lead setup I would love to hear them. 

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All the fireballs i sailed had a single pole bungie retractor like 505s use to have. I have seen the system where the bungie goes around the mast as well, but only on whiskers for snipes and small keelboats. Mainly as a storage solution so the pole stays out of the way upwind and during gybes. Again this was some time ago. 

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3 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

 

 Thanks everyone for your replies, I am going to use GBRNoah's system for the spinnaker pole and since I really liked Jethrow's idea for a pole stowage system I am going to try that.

I am working on the jib lead system also and was wondering what a 'floating block' ment? Also, If anybody has any better ideas for a simple jib lead setup I would love to hear them. 

I assume the floating block is a reference to a barber hauler, to exert inward and/or downward pressure on the jib sheet between the clew and the final turning block & cleat. Modern boats have the cleat on the inboard face of the side tank, and the barber hauler mounted on the front centreboard case cross brace - that your boat doesn’t have :-(

I tried, unsuccessfully, to install a similar arrangement using string on my previous boat. And that had the cross brace as a starting point... If you’re not going to be racing the ‘ball it probably doesn’t matter.

On another topic, you might want to stick some pro-grip to the back of the spinnaker sheet blocks so they don’t beat the sh*t out the varnish on the thwart.

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I put the sails up today! PicsDSCN3323.thumb.JPG.e9388a755193de5f6d030da9ce68cc33.JPGDSCN3324.thumb.JPG.4e697f58d1f1798a5cf9d1925695b040.JPGDSCN3326.thumb.JPG.ab79d417d1378ce610857948ded5a3bc.JPGDSCN3327.thumb.JPG.235b305bfced4417d3d1550d6c4e83c5.JPGDSCN3338.thumb.JPG.1343f9b345ff432c762d7d7e8aa9796f.JPG

Is there supposed to be a crease in the foot of the sail like in the photo above?

DSCN3331.thumb.JPG.08b4bb0187a91df213d73be048a077d0.JPG

the jib halyard comes out of the opening of the mast above, and has a loop of wire thats looks like it should be looped over these teeth in the pic below..

DSCN3330.thumb.JPG.6537b5812d271e7693a6fad46c34bce3.JPG

but, I can't reach the jib halyard loop anywhere near the teeth and anyway, there is no purchase anywhere on the halyard so it's impossible to get any halyard tension!

Is it up to me to think up a system?An idea I had was, the halyard runs down to a block at the base of the mast, then along the centerboard case where it connects to, say, 8:1 tackle, and thens runs further down the case to a cleat near the helmsman. Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, GBRNoah said:

I tried, unsuccessfully, to install a similar arrangement using string on my previous boat. And that had the cross brace as a starting point... If you’re not going to be racing the ‘ball it probably doesn’t matter.

well, I DO intend to race it, at a club level though...But is it just silly to expect a old boat like that to be competitive at a club level?

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2 hours ago, GBRNoah said:

I assume the floating block is a reference to a barber hauler, to exert inward and/or downward pressure on the jib sheet between the clew and the final turning block & cleat. Modern boats have the cleat on the inboard face of the side tank, and the barber hauler mounted on the front centreboard case cross brace - that your boat doesn’t have :-(

I tried, unsuccessfully, to install a similar arrangement using string on my previous boat. And that had the cross brace as a starting point... If you’re not going to be racing the ‘ball it probably doesn’t matter.

On another topic, you might want to stick some pro-grip to the back of the spinnaker sheet blocks so they don’t beat the sh*t out the varnish on the thwart.

14 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

well, I DO intend to race it, at a club level though...But is it just silly to expect a old boat like that to be competitive at a club level?

 

in case this helps, here is a pic of the current jib sheet arrangement.DSCN3334.thumb.JPG.1377dc68bde16b4f579e075d13a1607f.JPG

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40 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

I put the sails up today! PicsDSCN3323.thumb.JPG.e9388a755193de5f6d030da9ce68cc33.JPGDSCN3324.thumb.JPG.4e697f58d1f1798a5cf9d1925695b040.JPGDSCN3326.thumb.JPG.ab79d417d1378ce610857948ded5a3bc.JPGDSCN3327.thumb.JPG.235b305bfced4417d3d1550d6c4e83c5.JPGDSCN3338.thumb.JPG.1343f9b345ff432c762d7d7e8aa9796f.JPG

Is there supposed to be a crease in the foot of the sail like in the photo above?

DSCN3331.thumb.JPG.08b4bb0187a91df213d73be048a077d0.JPG

the jib halyard comes out of the opening of the mast above, and has a loop of wire thats looks like it should be looped over these teeth in the pic below..

DSCN3330.thumb.JPG.6537b5812d271e7693a6fad46c34bce3.JPG

but, I can't reach the jib halyard loop anywhere near the teeth and anyway, there is no purchase anywhere on the halyard so it's impossible to get any halyard tension!

Is it up to me to think up a system?An idea I had was, the halyard runs down to a block at the base of the mast, then along the centerboard case where it connects to, say, 8:1 tackle, and thens runs further down the case to a cleat near the helmsman. Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

Really all you need is a turning block at the base of the mast for the jib halyard to turn through and go aft. You then will have a good purchase on the halyard and likely will be able to get the loop far enough down, it looks close, to give you some options on which hook to use. A typical Harken bullet block, or one you can tie on like a 29mm would do the trick.

Harken 29mm

Harken bullet

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2 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

 

 

in case this helps, here is a pic of the current jib sheet arrangement.DSCN3334.thumb.JPG.1377dc68bde16b4f579e075d13a1607f.JPG

I wouldn’t be sailing with that arrangement, the block alignment is all wrong.

Should there be a floating block, adjustable in/out and up/down, that the jib sheet goes through before the block on the deck?

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1 hour ago, Rushman said:

I wouldn’t be sailing with that arrangement, the block alignment is all wrong.

Should there be a floating block, adjustable in/out and up/down, that the jib sheet goes through before the block on the deck?

Yes, the jib sheet needs to pass through another block. That one on the deck is just a guide to the cleat. Concerning the jib halyard, you are on the right track with the purchase system. Noah will set you straight.

Where does the main halyard exit? I have seen those teeth used for main halyards.

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Where does the main halyard exit? I have seen those teeth used for main halyards.

Plus one... I would normally expect that rack to be used for the main halyard, with the luff tension set by the cunningham.

 Best to swing the rope eye out of the way when it's seated, BTW, to reduce wear. The wire loop should be straight on the hook.

(I've not sailed a Fireball yet, though).

Cheers,

               W.

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5 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

well, I DO intend to race it, at a club level though...But is it just silly to expect a old boat like that to be competitive at a club level?

99% of all boats are more competitive than their crews are!

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Hi Admiral,

                       I'm not sure what's going on with the jib tack?  I would expect it to be shackled down to the deck aft of the forestay but there seems to be quite a bit of string in your photo?

 The Draycote rigging page "Useful Tips 0" would be worth a read. 

On the halyard rack question... it looks in the photo as if that rack is on the starboard side of the mast? If so, that reinforces the idea that it's likely to be for the main, as the main halyard is traditionally routed to starboard. 

Cheers,

               W.

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Yeah, hooks for the main halyard. The jib halyard would have been hooked up to a purchase of some sort at the mast base to provide the tension. Some earlier boats had fixed forestays and hyfield levers on the stays but it seems you're was setup for a halyard tensioner.

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Actually I might just get a bit more specific. The MAST was setup for having a purchase tensioned forestay, that's not to say the hull was ever set up that way.

Do you know for certain that the mast has been used in that hull?

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6 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Yes, the jib sheet needs to pass through another block. That one on the deck is just a guide to the cleat. Concerning the jib halyard, you are on the right track with the purchase system. Noah will set you straight.

Where does the main halyard exit? I have seen those teeth used for main halyards.

 

5 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Plus one... I would normally expect that rack to be used for the main halyard, with the luff tension set by the cunningham.

 Best to swing the rope eye out of the way when it's seated, BTW, to reduce wear. The wire loop should be straight on the hook.

(I've not sailed a Fireball yet, though).

Cheers,

               W.

Thanks for the tip!

3 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Hi Admiral,

                       I'm not sure what's going on with the jib tack?  I would expect it to be shackled down to the deck aft of the forestay but there seems to be quite a bit of string in your photo?

 The Draycote rigging page "Useful Tips 0" would be worth a read. 

On the halyard rack question... it looks in the photo as if that rack is on the starboard side of the mast? If so, that reinforces the idea that it's likely to be for the main, as the main halyard is traditionally routed to starboard. 

Cheers,

               W.

The jib tack is attached to the the deck , that's just a bunch of odds and ends of rope I hadn't cleaned up.

3 hours ago, Jethrow said:

Yeah, hooks for the main halyard. The jib halyard would have been hooked up to a purchase of some sort at the mast base to provide the tension. Some earlier boats had fixed forestays and hyfield levers on the stays but it seems you're was setup for a halyard tensioner.

Yes, everyone is definitely right about the main hooking on those teeth, the main halyard comes  out right above those teeth, and in this photo

 

, that's actually the main halyard hooked on those teeth, but I was under some mistaken impression that the jib halyard should be looped over those teeth too, but everyone has set me straight on that, thanks!

 

RE jib halyard... I have a box of fireballs parts that a guy at our club gave to me, and one of them was this piece of hardware that looked like it could for a jib lead system...?

DSCN3341.thumb.JPG.dc04a5e9aa20d2ed0751c3c45e61d504.JPGDSCN3342.thumb.JPG.a34aa9c6f5fa3fc74458e21da9698c05.JPGDSCN3344.thumb.JPG.34993efaa3b5c9b34e7d6e67b64c9189.JPG

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1 hour ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

 

Thanks for the tip!

The jib tack is attached to the the deck , that's just a bunch of odds and ends of rope I hadn't cleaned up.

Yes, everyone is definitely right about the main hooking on those teeth, the main halyard comes  out right above those teeth, and in this photo

 

, that's actually the main halyard hooked on those teeth, but I was under some mistaken impression that the jib halyard should be looped over those teeth too, but everyone has set me straight on that, thanks!

 

RE jib halyard... I have a box of fireballs parts that a guy at our club gave to me, and one of them was this piece of hardware that looked like it could for a jib lead system...?

DSCN3341.thumb.JPG.dc04a5e9aa20d2ed0751c3c45e61d504.JPGDSCN3342.thumb.JPG.a34aa9c6f5fa3fc74458e21da9698c05.JPGDSCN3344.thumb.JPG.34993efaa3b5c9b34e7d6e67b64c9189.JPG

A long long time ago fireballs had  jib tracks mounted on the foredeck aft of the spinnaker pockets, this might not work on your boat if the jib is a more modern cut as the sheeting position will be too far forward and too low down for its position.

You are better off attaching a 30 mm bullet block to two pieces of rope, one attached to a saddle at the outboard end of the foreword case strut and the other to a saddle or simply a hole through the top of the case in line with the inboard end of the strut.

The block should be more or less level with the side deck where the cheek block for the jib sheet is and about half  way between the side tank and the outer edge of the centreboard case top. Once you have the block in the right position by altering both pieces of rope mark the ropes so if you fiddle you can get back to the same setting. Copy to the other side. You an also tie a thin piece of shock cord to the bullet block to hold it up, probably also worthwhile glueing some soft rubber to each side of it to stop it destroying varnish.

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13 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Yes, the jib sheet needs to pass through another block. That one on the deck is just a guide to the cleat. Concerning the jib halyard, you are on the right track with the purchase system. Noah will set you straight.

Where does the main halyard exit? I have seen those teeth used for main halyards.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Bill. I know how boats are conventionally set up today. Not so much the older girls.
Those tracks with bullseyes on them... the Aussies use something similar mounted on the cockpit coaming aft of the kite bags. Needs lots of strength there though... And whether it’s a viable solution will depend on how far back the foredeck comes, and the jib clew position. 

Main halyard will be secured on the rack. There’s often a block on the mast underneath it to make the hoist and hook-on easier. Whoever said keep the tail out of the rack teeth is right. It’ll get eaten through in no time otherwise and that brings a world of pain.

Jib halyard: dead end a strop on one side of the hog, as close the aft face of the mast as you can. Line goes through a block with a hook attached - like a l*ser clew block, but a high tension version. The hook attaches to the loop in the halyard. Line down to a turning block on the hog opposite the dead end point, giving 2:1. Then attach to your 6:1 tackle alongside the centreboard case and cleat anywhere near the aft end. It doesn’t generally need adjustment mid race (and apologies for thinking you wouldn’t be) I use 3 or 4mm dyneema for the whole thing. 
Please do not expect your hull to withstand modern rig tension numbers. She won’t.

Enough rambling from me.

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1 hour ago, GBRNoah said:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Bill. I know how boats are conventionally set up today. Not so much the older girls.
Those tracks with bullseyes on them... the Aussies use something similar mounted on the cockpit coaming aft of the kite bags. Needs lots of strength there though... And whether it’s a viable solution will depend on how far back the foredeck comes, and the jib clew position. 

Main halyard will be secured on the rack. There’s often a block on the mast underneath it to make the hoist and hook-on easier. Whoever said keep the tail out of the rack teeth is right. It’ll get eaten through in no time otherwise and that brings a world of pain.

Jib halyard: dead end a strop on one side of the hog, as close the aft face of the mast as you can. Line goes through a block with a hook attached - like a l*ser clew block, but a high tension version. The hook attaches to the loop in the halyard. Line down to a turning block on the hog opposite the dead end point, giving 2:1. Then attach to your 6:1 tackle alongside the centreboard case and cleat anywhere near the aft end. It doesn’t generally need adjustment mid race (and apologies for thinking you wouldn’t be) I use 3 or 4mm dyneema for the whole thing. 
Please do not expect your hull to withstand modern rig tension numbers. She won’t.

Enough rambling from me.

Thanks! your posts are very helpful, as are also everyone else's.

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6 hours ago, Major Tom said:

A long long time ago fireballs had  jib tracks mounted on the foredeck aft of the spinnaker pockets, this might not work on your boat if the jib is a more modern cut as the sheeting position will be too far forward and too low down for its position.

You are better off attaching a 30 mm bullet block to two pieces of rope, one attached to a saddle at the outboard end of the foreword case strut and the other to a saddle or simply a hole through the top of the case in line with the inboard end of the strut.

The block should be more or less level with the side deck where the cheek block for the jib sheet is and about half  way between the side tank and the outer edge of the centreboard case top. Once you have the block in the right position by altering both pieces of rope mark the ropes so if you fiddle you can get back to the same setting. Copy to the other side. You an also tie a thin piece of shock cord to the bullet block to hold it up, probably also worthwhile glueing some soft rubber to each side of it to stop it destroying varnish.

Is this what you meant? I don't get how I am going to adjust it though...

DSCN3346_LI.thumb.jpg.1c8e7022024de84b7314318ae92f14c3.jpgDSCN3346.thumb.JPG.058b469fd68ec9eaae1d3756c7367a51.JPG

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7 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

 

Is this what you meant? I don't get how I am going to adjust it though...

DSCN3346_LI.thumb.jpg.1c8e7022024de84b7314318ae92f14c3.jpgDSCN3346.thumb.JPG.058b469fd68ec9eaae1d3756c7367a51.JPG

Something like that, I have no doubt I would come up with a workable solution in less than 5 minutes if I had access to your boat, you need to find someone local  who has intimate knowledge of fireballs to figure out the best system that will work with the limitations of the build layout of your particular boat. I do get a bit worried that you want to be able to adjust everything, unless you know exactly what you are doing the chances are great that you will always have the wrong settings, for now simply get the jib sheeting system functional and go sailing and once you can get the boat around the course in 20 knots then start fiddling with adding more string. At this point in your life you need to improve your basic sailing skills before any small changes to the boat will make any difference in speed around a course.

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Some time ago there was a detailed write up (with photos) of a floating jib car set up. I don’t remember if it was a Fireball, 505, Flying Fifeteen or something else but it looked like the bees knees (aka really top class setup)

I spy some rings either side of the centreboard case, perhaps these are meant to be part of the jib system. 

F726C1C2-DAE2-49B9-AF08-DC0094F1C359.jpeg

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On that line of thinking that Tom raised, you don't have to start out with dedicated cleats and stuff for the adjustability. Tie the floating blocks to a location and go sailing. Experiment with them. When you've been through that for a while, you will see some possibilities you hadn't thought of and the ergonomics will be more evident. In some ways, trying to get all the fixed rigging parts of adjustable systems located before sailing will lead to the inertia of simply accomodating their locations, rather than the other way around--you want the ergo omics to work for you, not the other way around.

On the topic of adjustability, to go sailing, even to race, the only essential adustability while sailing are the following:

Sheets, main vang, trapeze (which in simplest form is a dog bone but the cleat thing is way better). All the other "fiddly bits" can be done while tacking or luffing--even the cunningham! (That's the only way on a laser, after all...)

Making all those other things adjustable is what creates a sitar instead of a simple dutar. Those other strings (outhaul, twings, barberhaulers, rig tension, rake, ram, foreguy, toppinglift, etc etc) must be ergonomic to be effectively adjustable. So sailing the boat with that stuff "tied off" isn't a bad way of getting going...and then you see where the possibilities lie.

You'll find in any class like this one or the 505 or FD or a number of relatively open classes, that people who race actively for a long time have often tried out different things and moved stuff around. There are almost always a lot of mystery holes and even fittings and the odd bakelite/fibre/micarta orphan cleat that was never removed.

Tbat all being said, if you see somewhere that something probably works, try it.

 

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Screenshot_20200623-060937_Facebook.thumb.jpg.05afcc6b17880cf0685ed2082bb3227c.jpgScreenshot_20200623-060915_Facebook.thumb.jpg.c1741babb3120490c7fff1c228fc9197.jpg

Here are a couple of pictures of a Fireball for sale near me.

Maybe they can give you some rigging ideas.

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Just some ideas to keep you going.

 

It looks like your jib luff needs to be lower to deck. Can you give us a closer photo.

 

Floating ring setup.

post-12147-1235669302.jpeg

 

Not a hard and fast rule, but in the ball park.

worldaccordingtopeter: JIB TRIM

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10 hours ago, Ncik said:

Just some ideas to keep you going.

 

It looks like your jib luff needs to be lower to deck. Can you give us a closer photo.

 

Floating ring setup.

post-12147-1235669302.jpeg

 

Not a hard and fast rule, but in the ball park.

worldaccordingtopeter: JIB TRIM

DSCN3364.thumb.JPG.56a63c582c79b6276e979fee8a60d115.JPG

jib tack,

DSCN3366.thumb.JPG.ded8d6996f1a47da8f63512394beee72.JPG

and where it attaches to the deck.

DSCN3365.thumb.JPG.f9ff57c1c3150364e43502b65f33623e.JPGDSCN3368.thumb.JPG.56e60e925c64e328fa2441e421d1ee14.JPGDSCN3369.thumb.JPG.94bef3627f71e947493501327ce4dc5b.JPG

I have been varnishing some more with gloss varnish, and I am really pleased with how it looks, though a boat like this

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https://familyfireball.blogspot.com/

makes mine look like it should go in the dumpster:huh: 

P.S. Oops, maybe I better delete that pic...

DSCN3367.JPG

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1 hour ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

I have been varnishing some more with gloss varnish, and I am really pleased with how it looks

 

Your varnishing job is looking good! You are also spending time on the important stuff - rigging so you can get on the water! Plenty of time for cosmetics in the off-season!

This is a great thread - enjoy seeing your progress and the input and encouragement coming from around the world!

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Thanks!

36 minutes ago, Alan Crawford said:

Your varnishing job is looking good! You are also spending time on the important stuff - rigging so you can get on the water! Plenty of time for cosmetics in the off-season!

This is a great thread - enjoy seeing your progress and the input and encouragement coming from around the world!

 

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