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I have just been offered a wooden Fireball which I will see this weekend. I have long admired Fireballs, but have never got to sail one in person.

Out of curiosity, what is its highest and average speed?

What is a good crew weight for it?

Are there any fleets or regattas near my area?

Sadly there used to be a pretty active fleet at our club before I went there, and it hosted the 2013 and 2015 North Americans, but most of the old Fireball sailors have moved  to racing Hobie cats and Mysteres. 

I am really looking forward to sailing that fabulous boat!

Also any general tips or advice on the boat would be appreciated

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Pymatuning has one of America’s first and best Fireball fleets . Odds are pretty good that woodie is a fine sailing machine. 
if you want to race Fireballs, get the boat and start scouring the old Boat records and drag others out to play. 
 

if you just want to choose windy days and go blast around, that is lots of fun too 

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Fun boat to sail.  You’ll definitely get your rocks off teaching in some breeze. 

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Out of curiosity, what's the fastest any of these Fireball sailors here have gone on the Fireball? Has anybody ever got them over 20 kts?

Our club often runs windward leeward courses and I was wondering what produces max VMG with the Fireball, sailing dead downwind or sailing angles? Or does it tend to vary? (please correct any of my improper terminology) I have also  heard something about them sailing asymmetric angles downwind in alot of wind, what exactly does that mean?

6 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Pymatuning has one of America’s first and best Fireball fleets . Odds are pretty good that woodie is a fine sailing machine. 
if you want to race Fireballs, get the boat and start scouring the old Boat records and drag others out to play. 
 

if you just want to choose windy days and go blast around, that is lots of fun too 

I will try what you  suggested though I doubt I will have much luck.

 I will  also show  pictures of the boat once I see it. BTW, I am getting it for free!

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There's a pretty good following of Fireballs to the North in Canada.  Not all that big of a drive from you, when the border opens again.  

A buddy here decided that he and his non-sailing girlfriend (now wife) would sail Fireballs together.  They almost broke up.  He chose her over the boat and sold it.

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Crew weight? 80-85 kg’s in the front. 65 in the back, ideally. There are boats sailed well with bigger helms and little crews though, and there’s a really lightweight pairing here that can make their boat fly. 
20kts? I’ve not seen it. 15 plus though, yeah, especially in flat water. 
Angles downwind can result in better vmg if the breeze is up. Head up till properly planing, then go as low as you can while staying on the plane.

Fireball gives the most bang per buck of any boat I know.

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7 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

... I have also  heard something about them sailing asymmetric angles downwind in alot of wind, what exactly does that mean?

 

Admiral, it might be a reference to the official worlds course being triangle, W/L combinations with the first reach angle being set a lot tighter than the second reach.

Not even sure if they still do that, but it was a thing when I was sailing them in the 90's.

They did heat up the angles downwind in a blow, but I wouldn't say they sailed the same angles as an asymmetric boat like an I-14.

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17 hours ago, GBRNoah said:

Crew weight? 80-85 kg’s in the front. 65 in the back, ideally. There are boats sailed well with bigger helms and little crews though, and there’s a really lightweight pairing here that can make their boat fly. 
20kts? I’ve not seen it. 15 plus though, yeah, especially in flat water. 
Angles downwind can result in better vmg if the breeze is up. Head up till properly planing, then go as low as you can while staying on the plane.

Fireball gives the most bang per buck of any boat I know.

Thanks for the info, my Dad and I would sail it. He is 150 lbs and I am 120, so if we want to be competetive he should crew and I helm, right?

16 hours ago, Jethrow said:

Admiral, it might be a reference to the official worlds course being triangle, W/L combinations with the first reach angle being set a lot tighter than the second reach.

Not even sure if they still do that, but it was a thing when I was sailing them in the 90's.

They did heat up the angles downwind in a blow, but I wouldn't say they sailed the same angles as an asymmetric boat like an I-14.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

 

I have heard that the Fireball is suposed to be heeled slightly for max speed, does that aply for downwind and upwind? Or only upwind?

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13 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

I have heard that the Fireball is supposed to be heeled slightly for max speed, does that apply for downwind and upwind? Or only upwind?

You'll want to play with how your fireball reacts, but (in general) the closer you get to a run from a broad reach, the more you risk digging your boom into the wet on a heel, so be mindful of that as you test and learn.

 

Since one of the benefits of heeling is to lengthen the waterline to increase your hull speed, heeling helps any keelboats/displacement boats and can assist you until you get up to speed to plane.  Now, I haven't actually spent any time with a Fireball, but it appears to be a planing dinghy, so once you feel it rising up on the water, you'll want it relatively flat as you approach max speed.

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cover_204572112016_r.jpg

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34 minutes ago, Trovão said:

 

FIFY... I clicked on that pic about five times before I realized it was NOT the song!

So, because sometimes you just NEED to hear it, here it is......

FB- Doug

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13 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

FIFY... I clicked on that pic about five times before I realized it was NOT the song!

So, because sometimes you just NEED to hear it, here it is......

FB- Doug

sorry, my bad. and thanks, weel done.

 

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21 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Thanks for the info, my Dad and I would sail it. He is 150 lbs and I am 120, so if we want to be competetive he should crew and I helm, right?

Thanks for the clarification.

 

 

I have heard that the Fireball is suposed to be heeled slightly for max speed, does that aply for downwind and upwind? Or only upwind?

Ideally the 150lbs crewing, yes. BUT, height is a factor, too, as is the skill level. Crews do most of the work in single wire trap boats, IMV.

Heeling: upwind and reaching just enough to lift the windward chine out of the water, so hardly any. Kicker / vang off to keep the end of that long boom out of the wet stuff offwind.

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On 5/20/2020 at 9:55 PM, Admiral Hornblower said:

I have just been offered a wooden Fireball which I will see this weekend. I have long admired Fireballs, but have never got to sail one in person.

Out of curiosity, what is its highest and average speed?

What is a good crew weight for it?

Are there any fleets or regattas near my area?

Sadly there used to be a pretty active fleet at our club before I went there, and it hosted the 2013 and 2015 North Americans, but most of the old Fireball sailors have moved  to racing Hobie cats and Mysteres. 

I am really looking forward to sailing that fabulous boat!

Also any general tips or advice on the boat would be appreciated

Never mind exactly how fast they go. Not important. Fact is they feel fast all the time!
One of my favourite boats that I have yet to sail.

Here's a little story to encourage you.

There is a regatta (that has morphed recently) founded by a 505 sailor from American Yacht Club, called the HPDO or "High Performance Dinghy Open." The rules used to be dinghy, faster than a Thistle in Portsmouth rating. I raced the 505 in three of them. I wish I'd raced it more! (Life gets in the way, dammit). The first year I was there, I met all the Fireball sailors. Many were from Canada. I put them right up with 505 sailors. They love their boats!

But here is the best part. At one of the regattas, the weather came up on Saturday as the last race finished. Most every boat sailed in, got unrigged, got to the beer. We were at the keg with the rest of the 505 sailors and some Viper, canoe and other guys chatting, and we were watching the Fireball sailors. They wouldn't come in yet. They were having too much fun blast reaching out there! Go the Fireball!

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I owned a wood Fireball for maybe about 10 years or so.  Sailed it on open Lake Huron often single handed.  They are good sea boats and fast.  I don't know how fast, not sure I ever brought a GPS out on that boat.  But I would say over 10 knots for sure, just not sure exactly how fast.

 

Currently have a Prindle 16 and I don't think the Fireball was as fast as the Prindle and I know anything over 14 knots is a good day on my Prindle.  I would guess  somewhere in that range speedwise.  10-14 knots.  Likely faster for serious Fireball sailors.  

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6 minutes ago, TBW said:

I owned a wood Fireball for maybe about 10 years or so.  Sailed it on open Lake Huron often single handed.  They are good sea boats and fast.  I don't know how fast, not sure I ever brought a GPS out on that boat.  But I would say over 10 knots for sure, just not sure exactly how fast.

 

Currently have a Prindle 16 and I don't think the Fireball was as fast as the Prindle and I know anything over 14 knots is a good day on my Prindle.  I would guess  somewhere in that range speedwise.  10-14 knots.  Likely faster for serious Fireball sailors.  

My 70s memories were the Prindle was a Hobie 16 beater. Similar general design though--but less rocker and more hull depth.

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On 5/21/2020 at 2:22 PM, GBRNoah said:

Crew weight? 80-85 kg’s in the front. 65 in the back, ideally. There are boats sailed well with bigger helms and little crews though, and there’s a really lightweight pairing here that can make their boat fly. 
20kts? I’ve not seen it. 15 plus though, yeah, especially in flat water. 
Angles downwind can result in better vmg if the breeze is up. Head up till properly planing, then go as low as you can while staying on the plane.

Fireball gives the most bang per buck of any boat I know.

I was 6'2" and 80-85 kg in my late teens/early 20's. I was a popular crew. There was a great Fireball fleet around here then. 

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On 5/23/2020 at 5:19 PM, fastyacht said:

Never mind exactly how fast they go. Not important. Fact is they feel fast all the time!
One of my favourite boats that I have yet to sail.

Here's a little story to encourage you.

There is a regatta (that has morphed recently) founded by a 505 sailor from American Yacht Club, called the HPDO or "High Performance Dinghy Open." The rules used to be dinghy, faster than a Thistle in Portsmouth rating. I raced the 505 in three of them. I wish I'd raced it more! (Life gets in the way, dammit). The first year I was there, I met all the Fireball sailors. Many were from Canada. I put them right up with 505 sailors. They love their boats!

But here is the best part. At one of the regattas, the weather came up on Saturday as the last race finished. Most every boat sailed in, got unrigged, got to the beer. We were at the keg with the rest of the 505 sailors and some Viper, canoe and other guys chatting, and we were watching the Fireball sailors. They wouldn't come in yet. They were having too much fun blast reaching out there! Go the Fireball!

Great story! I can't wait to start sailing one the Fireball..

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I also used my Fireball for cruising.  Couple of dry bags at the forward end of the cockpit.  Beach it and tent camp.  Didn't seem to mind the extra weight much.  

Took a GF for about a week in Georgian Bay, even did 3 or 4 days with a GF and another dude.  I found her to be a versatile boat.

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On 5/23/2020 at 6:57 PM, Bill5 said:

I was 6'2" and 80-85 kg in my late teens/early 20's. I was a popular crew. There was a great Fireball fleet around here then. 

Alberta seemed to be a hotbed of dinghy sailing back in the day.

Just found a Glenmore Fireball hull from the 60's that I'm rigging up with parts salvaged from a deceased woody. 

Some fun Fireball sailing in this film but the best part is the YW catamaran  racing before Hobies were even invented.

 

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Can't save that gem in youtube. "content made for kids" cannot be saved.?

image.thumb.png.a2d6721ff7bd3d6f81d68c5aa6c103aa.png

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12 hours ago, wannabefd said:

Alberta seemed to be a hotbed of dinghy sailing back in the day.

Just found a Glenmore Fireball hull from the 60's that I'm rigging up with parts salvaged from a deceased woody. 

Some fun Fireball sailing in this film but the best part is the YW catamaran  racing before Hobies were even invented.

 

Great video, I love the speeding FDs at the end

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This is my old home club - Glenmore Yacht Club (now Glenmore Sailing Club). I started sailing there as a kid 2 or 3 years after this video (which would have been Super 8mm ...).The lake is a municipal reservoir for drinking water. The only motorboats allowed are the city's rescue boat and one or two coach boats each for the sailing club and the canoe club. Unfortunately, the reservoir has silted in a lot (as reservoirs do), and the sail-able part of the lake has reduced significantly. Nobody ever planned for dredging...

Anyway, this is a great video and brings back all kinds of memories. Most of the video is of a Provincial Regatta, and the FD's would mainly have been from Edmonton (lake is 3.5 hours away), and the Y Flyers would have been from Calgary Yacht Club, which is on a small  irrigation lake just east of town (note at 11:42 the action magically switches to that lake). The blue sailed cats in with the Yachting World cats are Flying Kittens. There was probably 15 of them combined at the club. All wood and home built. The Fireball's would have mostly been locals, and this would over the next few years easily become the dominant class. At Glenmore, there were probably 25-30 actively racing, and 50 or 60 more recreational boats in the boat park (city run and not associated with the Club). A local builder called Smallcraft built hundreds of fiberglass boats. But the fast guys were all in home built or more exotic imports from UK (Chippendale) and I recall one being from Australia (Binks). 

It was a great fleet, with a perennial national champion (4 times) and, although the fleet has dwindled to a handful, a recent NA champion. 

One other cool thing in the video is at 7:33 where the first IC in Canada shows up. This gentleman's son was the earlier referred 4 time Fireball national champ who ultimately had a hand in building some IC's in the '80s and early 90s. I bought one - my favorite boat ever by a longshot. 

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7 hours ago, Bill5 said:

snip

One other cool thing in the video is at 7:33 where the first IC in Canada shows up. This gentleman's son was the earlier referred 4 time Fireball national champ who ultimately had a hand in building some IC's in the '80s and early 90s. I bought one - my favorite boat ever by a longshot. 

I love that clip--but not the first IC -- they were invented in Canada when Uffa and his friend showed up at Sugar Island! Do you mean the first Nethercott one design IC?

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58 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I love that clip--but not the first IC -- they were invented in Canada when Uffa and his friend showed up at Sugar Island! Do you mean the first Nethercott one design IC?

Perhaps it was the first registered one - IC KC 1 is the sail number. But I don’t know for sure. Lots of history with sailing canoes. 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Perhaps it was the first registered one - IC KC 1 is the sail number. But I don’t know for sure. Lots of history with sailing canoes. 

I know someone who can fill us in for the details. It is a great little movie at any rate. Great. It actually gives me pangs of heartsickness for what we used to have---vibrant dinghy action all over the place.

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13 hours ago, fastyacht said:

It actually gives me pangs of heartsickness for what we used to have---vibrant dinghy action all over the place.

+10

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I always wonder what would have happened if the Fireball was chosen instead of the 470 for the Olympics. I still remember the windy mid-winters when both sailed out of Davis Island prior to the selection.

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1 hour ago, Proneshooter said:

I always wonder what would have happened if the Fireball was chosen instead of the 470 for the Olympics.

Sailing programs would be whinging about their fleets of decaying Club Futpuffs? 

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2 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Then they'd be as dead as the 470 is now, because no one wants to go sailing in an Olympic class.

This is why the 505 class always shunned Olympic selection.  Or at least that is what I've been told.

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1 hour ago, WCB said:
4 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Then they'd be as dead as the 470 is now, because no one wants to go sailing in an Olympic class.

This is why the 505 class always shunned Olympic selection.  Or at least that is what I've been told.

 

That's not what I heard, back in the day    ;)

But it's true that Olympic status can be a downer. The boats tend to get more expensive... the 470 class put stringent controls on EVERYTHING trying to cap expense, but it didn't really help... and people tend to act like assholes when they think their shot at Olympic glory is at stake.

I raced Fireballs a bit BITD. There was a kind of rivalry between the classes. This is shallow of me but I liked the looks of the 470 more, and thought it was a bit nicer for crew. The Fireball seemed better in heavy air.

FB- Doug

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

That's not what I heard, back in the day    ;)

But it's true that Olympic status can be a downer. The boats tend to get more expensive... the 470 class put stringent controls on EVERYTHING trying to cap expense, but it didn't really help... and people tend to act like assholes when they think their shot at Olympic glory is at stake.

I raced Fireballs a bit BITD. There was a kind of rivalry between the classes. This is shallow of me but I liked the looks of the 470 more, and thought it was a bit nicer for crew. The Fireball seemed better in heavy air.

FB- Doug

I recall “Fireballs eat 470s” bumper stickers. I sailed 470s at a couple youth events and didn’t think much of the boat. It was just OK for my taste.

Edited by Bill5
Missed words

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2 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I recall “Fireballs eat 470s” bumper stickers. I sailed 470s at a couple youth events and didn’t think much of the boat. It was just OK for my taste.

:lol:

Now let's talk Flying Scots.... or maybe FJ vs 420...

I never saw the point in class rivalry. Dissing other sailors because of the boats they sail? WTF? There are boats I like and ones I don't, as much. The 470 was probably the only boat I really liked a lot that was a popular class. "Was" is the operative word. I liked the Lightning almost as much, when I was daysailing it as much as racing, the more I raced it the less I liked it. It's like Ensigns, pretty & nice boats but once you try to race them everything becomes an uncomfortable PITA.

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, WCB said:

This is why the 505 class always shunned Olympic selection.  Or at least that is what I've been told.

"France and England tried in vain to get it accepted as an Olympic Class in 1960 but the FD was selected instead. The supporters of the 505 insisted that it ought to be chosen because it was much quicker to tack than the FD and this meant that in a shifting wind during a race it was better able to make use of the whole course.

This is an example of a really first-class boat which has became popular by its own efforts and virtues without being an Olympic class. In fact many people said that the 505 was finished after it lost the original battle with the FD for Olympic Selection. How wrong they were!"

Paul Elvstrom

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@Admiral Hornblower - what happened with the Fireball you went to look at?

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Hornblower needs that fireball. And a pic of him sailing it in that thread on sailing pics!

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Posted (edited)

An update on the Fireball. we weren't able to see it last weekend but we will this weekend, I will take some photos of it and post them here  as soon as I see it. I have talked with the owner( a fabulouse guy BTW) He said it could use some sanding and varnishing of the deck but other than that it was ready to go. It has all equipment, including old but usable sails. It weighs around 175 lbs and was homebuilt from highest quality materials. He said it has some fancy type of rudder that cost $800 new and a mast that cost $1000 new! It was raced by his children at the local Fireball fleet until they became interested in other things and moved away.

I am also currentyly am inviting people to the club to get them interested in sailing and hopefully later in Fireballs!:ph34r: So far I have got two of two of my friends interested.

 

Edited by Admiral Hornblower
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14 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

An update on the Fireball. we weren't able to see it last weekend but we will this weekend, I will take some photos of it and post them here  as soon as I see it. I have talked with the owner( a fabulouse guy BTW) He said it could use some sanding and varnishing of the deck but other than that it was ready to go. It has all equipment, including old but usable sails. It weighs around 175 lbs and was homebuilt from highest quality materials. He said it has some fancy type of rudder that cost $800 new and a mast that cost $1000 new! It was raced by his children at the local Fireball fleet until they became interested in other things and moved away.

I am also currentyly am inviting people to the club to get them interested in sailing and hopefully later in Fireballs!:ph34r: So far I have got two of two of my friends interested.

 

Probably a Lindsay rudder  and Proctor D. $$$ because tapered at top.

Sweet sled. In my day I eould have been "stoked."

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Posted (edited)

DSCN3048.thumb.JPG.d5105a421ae488eae5d05a966badd4f0.JPGDSCN3059.thumb.JPG.a891ee8da292f675155a1889bc0fb976.JPGDSCN3056.thumb.JPG.e501a23b9dcd9237780aba78f9f845e8.JPGDSCN3054.thumb.JPG.01ca64839e95b8b6fe1c0f45792e3549.JPGDSCN3053.thumb.JPG.41d8faacf0d41ba2250474316233ae0d.JPGDSCN3052.thumb.JPG.76b3d54d02939ef743836d8133d69423.JPGDSCN3050.thumb.JPG.3f481d1c5a6bfd1c1aede46e836d6ab1.JPGDSCN3049.thumb.JPG.c667b7a50644f0a3b78a1889f9e302e3.JPGDSCN3047.thumb.JPG.dd77be6ea50d1755c4374d224c2ef179.JPGDSCN3045.thumb.JPG.20751d948977a5b4f306bc273cce887e.JPGHere are some pics of the boat, I am pretty amazed that I am getting this boat for free!

We need to sand the previous varnish on the deck off and re-varnish.

There is an opening for the bailer that can be seen I one of the pictures in which the edge of the ply has rotted around around a inch out and which will need to be fixed somehow. Any tips on fixing that would be appreciated. I can provide more photos of that area if necessary.

Also the paint on the outside is in great condition and seems quite fair. All equipment seems to be included and in good shape. Including mast, spinnaker pole, boom, etc.

Edit-And the rudder looks amazing!

Edited by Admiral Hornblower
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Also, I would REALLY apreciate some sort of rigging guide, I have never seen so many strings on a dinghy!

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56 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Also, I would REALLY apreciate some sort of rigging guide, I have never seen so many strings on a dinghy!

The hive mind will not let you down. This is fantastic

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Bravo!  Quite a score.  

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What's the sail number Admiral? I couldn't quite make it out, carved into the thwart...

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The number carved into the thwart is 10280

12 minutes ago, Jethrow said:

What's the sail number Admiral? I couldn't quite make it out, carved into the thwart...

 

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7 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Also, I would REALLY apreciate some sort of rigging guide, I have never seen so many strings on a dinghy!

Awesome pick up, Admiral! There are lots and lots of ways people rig their Fireballs. That's part of the fun! You have steep learning curve - but do not fret. You will figure it out. The varnish and bailer repair are first up. 

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7 hours ago, Bill5 said:
14 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Also, I would REALLY apreciate some sort of rigging guide, I have never seen so many strings on a dinghy!

Awesome pick up, Admiral! There are lots and lots of ways people rig their Fireballs. That's part of the fun! You have steep learning curve - but do not fret. You will figure it out. The varnish and bailer repair are first up. 

Yes, getting the wood parts sound and sealed up... a finish over them, paint or varnish (I'm more fond of paint but then I am both a cheapskate and a barbarian)... would be the first priority. Then set the mast up and get the rigging sorted out. Hopefully the generous man who gave it will come over and spend some time helping getting it sorted.

But getting the big picture is always an excellent goal IMHO. Standing rigging, running rigging; start with the standing rigging both because it's simpler and because there's no use in running rigging if the mast isn't staying up. Once that's in place (and another rigging priority is to get the internal halyards run straight and secured... fishing around for lines inside the mast is a real pain in the neck), you'll probably have some control lines for the mast. Maybe forestay tension, or partners ram? That is boat-specific.

Now the halyards- you'll have a jib halyard tensioner, possibly with "split control" which is a line run thru a multi-part purchase, to cleats on each side where the skipper can adjust it while hiking. Cunningham, which is the same as your down haul on the Laser, but probably (again) a split control. So, the first question about each control is does it connect to the jib or the main or the spinnaker?

Each control line will connect to some basic part of the rig, so once you get the big picture, it will be much easier to make sense out of what looks like an explosion in a spaghetti factory

FB- Doug

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Try not to lose a halyard up the mast. But if you do don't worry. Fishing a new one isn't the end of the world. (Why do I know this?)

 

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The ability to adjust rug tension while racing is almost never used. Get it right before the sequence starts and IF conditions change drastically then I have a ‘dump’ control (blatantly stolen from the quickest guy in our fleet) that effectively loses 2” of rake. That’s enough unless conditions are too extreme to be sailing anyway. Also, don’t try to replicate modern boat rig tension numbers on a elderly lady like yours. She won’t like it. She’s a great find and should be a fairly simple fix up. For rigging guides, when you get to that stage, look up the Draycote Fireball Fleet web pages. Lots of useful info there. 

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thanks guys! here are some pictures of some of the rigging systems and of the mast and boom. The mast and boom seem to have all hardware and lines  installed already.DSCN3077.thumb.JPG.f1388e2fc225c25ccd9199ac347460ef.JPGDSCN3074.thumb.JPG.8e7195ec188e0b2df12b98de00241063.JPG

This is what I believe to be the mast strut track?

DSCN3076.thumb.JPG.3a8a0f5cd6656f7003150f2e49bce8e2.JPGDSCN3075.thumb.JPG.6377a0bda51887bed0df9623d30c9b5f.JPGDSCN3073.thumb.JPG.5abf6298c2cb27b674fd012d44d0fade.JPG

mast and boom.

 

 

 

And then the bailer hole that needs to be repairedDSCN3070.thumb.JPG.e37f53a3c03bfaa2bd570a73d52ca1f5.JPGDSCN3069.thumb.JPG.1cef2292db2910ed32769e16503185b1.JPG

inside of boat...DSCN3064.thumb.JPG.dd4ab9253ce18426bd409cb07ad706e5.JPGDSCN3067.thumb.JPG.7a9c08ec55af4d9805a0cb8168248739.JPG

And outside.  Any ideas for repairing that? And obviously the paint isn't in good condition, I hadn't looked at the bottom of the hull when I said that.-_-

 

 

 

 

DSCN3073.JPG

DSCN3057.JPG

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7 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

inside of boat...DSCN3064.thumb.JPG.dd4ab9253ce18426bd409cb07ad706e5.JPGDSCN3067.thumb.JPG.7a9c08ec55af4d9805a0cb8168248739.JPG

And outside.  Any ideas for repairing that? And obviously the paint isn't in good condition, I hadn't looked at the bottom of the hull when I said that.-_-

Just a mere flesh wound. Don't be a wuss, paint it black, rename the boat "Monty Python's Dark Knight", and continue sailing! (Duct tape will get you on the water, which comes in black. ;) )

---

Seriously, if you haven't done it before, get a builder (or seriously experienced amateur) to do it. Trust me, you don't want to be learning with this repair, or the venturi / bailer repair. (Buy a new venturi / bailer, and have your builder seal it in). Both repairs are easy for experienced builders and most won't charge you much... ...and take it from me... these repairs are very easy to get wrong! 

 

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He's an experienced builder!

I'm a little worried about that black mushy looking stuff around the hole where the bailer used to be. Rotten spot in the bottom panel? That will not buff out, unfortunately

FB- Doug

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54 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

He's an experienced builder!

Noted (thanks) - and apologies @Admiral Hornblower - it looks like a great project!

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Admiral--the bottom problem repair goes like this:

1. Get a piece of Sapele or Khaya or Sipo or Meranti marine plywood (or okoune if those aren't available to you in correct pattern) that is the same laminate pattern (number of plies and thickness).

2. With a hand held jig saw, carefully cut back the rotted area until clear.

3. Mark a perfect rectangle on the wood

4. Mark a second rectangle that is larger--calculated to be at the 15:1 scarf slope away.

5. Carefully drill through at the 4 corners of the inner rectangle.

6. Using a very sharp low angle block plane and a very charp chisel, carefully cut the scarf joint.

7. Cut out new patch from plywood you acquired at (1) to size. Be sure to orient the plys to match the original!
8. Clamp piece to bench (at edge) and use plane to cut matching scarf. Be sure you measure the rectangles exactly the same so they match.

9. fit test as you go along. They need to really match closely.

10. fashion a clamping / backing grid on one side of the  hull.

11. butter all up with epoxy, put patch in place.

12. "Clamp" which is accomplished with "push sticks" up from the ground or down from temporary cross members (depending on which way you go at it).

13. Clean up mess.

14. Acquire new bailer (Anderson--get the "inside" mount type so you don't need a rabbet in the hull).

15. Mark and using drill and jigsaw, carefully cut opening.

16. saturate the edges of the cut with epoxy--multiple coats.

17. Install and go sailing.

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P.S. there is another swamp yankee ugly way to do this but only if you cry uncle.

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

P.S. there is another swamp yankee ugly way to do this but only if you cry uncle.

Does the bailer need to go in exactly the same place? I am thinking that moving it fore or aft 6" would avoid installing into the double hull thickness patch. 

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2 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Does the bailer need to go in exactly the same place? I am thinking that moving it fore or aft 6" would avoid installing into the double hull thickness patch. 

It could possibly move but having a bailer in the wrong place is annoying. Best to do a little reasearch on bailer placement in the fireball.
The patch should not be any thicker. minimum of 15:1 scarf makes that ok. 20:1 better.

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I've sent you a PM.  There's a lot of Fireball-building knowledge in Cleveland and Pittsburgh, and I'm sure those guys would be glad to help you out.  As for rigging a new-to-you boat, it can be tricky if the box of bits you got in the boat contains the remnants of previous owners' solutions.  For a guide, try http://running.lamont-web.co.uk/rigging/schematic.html.  It has some decent line drawings which will give you and idea of where your lines might run.

Get your boat going and perhaps we'll meet at next years' Sam Myers Regatta.

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Bailers are generally under the the thwart so accessible by both the helm and crew but completely out of the way so they won’t be stood on accidentally so moving them fore or aft us not a good idea. Mast looks like an early 90s proctor, the spreader adjusters might be completely siezed up, Aluminium on aluminum. The boom looks a few generations older. Check the opposite bailer, it might also have the same rot issues. Don’t  over capitalise, remember that free boats are the most expensive boats. 

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6 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Admiral--the bottom problem repair goes like this:

1. Get a piece of Sapele or Khaya or Sipo or Meranti marine plywood (or okoune if those aren't available to you in correct pattern) that is the same laminate pattern (number of plies and thickness).

2. With a hand held jig saw, carefully cut back the rotted area until clear.

3. Mark a perfect rectangle on the wood

4. Mark a second rectangle that is larger--calculated to be at the 15:1 scarf slope away.

5. Carefully drill through at the 4 corners of the inner rectangle.

6. Using a very sharp low angle block plane and a very charp chisel, carefully cut the scarf joint.

7. Cut out new patch from plywood you acquired at (1) to size. Be sure to orient the plys to match the original!
8. Clamp piece to bench (at edge) and use plane to cut matching scarf. Be sure you measure the rectangles exactly the same so they match.

9. fit test as you go along. They need to really match closely.

10. fashion a clamping / backing grid on one side of the  hull.

11. butter all up with epoxy, put patch in place.

12. "Clamp" which is accomplished with "push sticks" up from the ground or down from temporary cross members (depending on which way you go at it).

13. Clean up mess.

14. Acquire new bailer (Anderson--get the "inside" mount type so you don't need a rabbet in the hull).

15. Mark and using drill and jigsaw, carefully cut opening.

16. saturate the edges of the cut with epoxy--multiple coats.

17. Install and go sailing.

Thanks so much! A few questions, what does ''15:1 scarf slope away '' mean?

And I am just a little unsure about the scarfing part... also it would really help me to have some sort of diagram of what your suggesting.

3 hours ago, JeremyK said:

I've sent you a PM.  There's a lot of Fireball-building knowledge in Cleveland and Pittsburgh, and I'm sure those guys would be glad to help you out.  As for rigging a new-to-you boat, it can be tricky if the box of bits you got in the boat contains the remnants of previous owners' solutions.  For a guide, try http://running.lamont-web.co.uk/rigging/schematic.html.  It has some decent line drawings which will give you and idea of where your lines might run.

Get your boat going and perhaps we'll meet at next years' Sam Myers Regatta.

Thanks, thats exactly what I need, and I would love to meet you at the Sam Myers Ragatta, I was very disapionted when they said that at the best it was to be postponed to sometime in the fall.

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22 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Thanks so much! A few questions, what does ''15:1 scarf slope away '' mean?

And I am just a little unsure about the scarfing part... also it would really help me to have some sort of diagram of what your suggesting.

Thanks, thats exactly what I need, and I would love to meet you at the Sam Myers Ragatta, I was very disapionted when they said that at the best it was to be postponed to sometime in the fall.

For example. If the wood is 6 mm thick made of 5 plies, the scarf would be 90 mm long.

image.thumb.png.36a1cd9967914b5ee03d9c0e736b6192.png

 

image.png.9a87d5eb5195180a27da4b9447aaad46.png

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Also, I see that it seems to be fairly close to structure. You may have to have a steeper scarf on one edge---not desirable, but if the other scarfs are long (15:1) it is all OK.
And finally, it need not be rectangular, You could make it trapezoidal if that works better. I do not recommend a circle. That's harder to do.
(Full disclosure--I've cut these just as described--with block plane and chisel. But in fiberglass I've done them with a 24 grit disc grinder...but that isn't woodworking--and you'd chew through that mahogany plywood in a couple touches that way :-P)

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Those bottle screws for the spreader adjusters are a stainless ‘bolt’ inside the aluminium, and they do seize, especially in salt water. Long immersion in warm soapy water has been known to free them, but they are still available if needed.

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The scarf doesn’t need to be more than 7:1 if you are using epoxy, I built over a dozen wide bow ply Fireballs in the early 90s and we ran the bottom ply with the grain perpendicular to the centreline, which in effect meant a join running the full width of each bottom panel every 1.2 metres. We even ran the  grain on the side panels vertically to minimize the horizontal cracks that occurred from flexing along the grain during heavy pounding. Most of the boats are still sailing today and not one that I have looked at recently has any signs of cracking along any joins.6mm ply gives you a 42mm bonding surface, that is huge., is also enables you to get a straighter edge on the ply as the edges do not get too thin, especially the 2 edges parallel to the outer grain. The reality is that you could even do a 45 deg slope, drop a piece of ply in and put a thin layer of glass cloth with the fibres at 45 degrees to the edges of the patch on the bottom and top of the patch, probably more than strong enough.

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32 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

The scarf doesn’t need to be more than 7:1 if you are using epoxy, I built over a dozen wide bow ply Fireballs in the early 90s and we ran the bottom ply with the grain perpendicular to the centreline, which in effect meant a join running the full width of each bottom panel every 1.2 metres. We even ran the  grain on the side panels vertically to minimize the horizontal cracks that occurred from flexing along the grain during heavy pounding. Most of the boats are still sailing today and not one that I have looked at recently has any signs of cracking along any joins.6mm ply gives you a 42mm bonding surface, that is huge., is also enables you to get a straighter edge on the ply as the edges do not get too thin, especially the 2 edges parallel to the outer grain. The reality is that you could even do a 45 deg slope, drop a piece of ply in and put a thin layer of glass cloth with the fibres at 45 degrees to the edges of the patch on the bottom and top of the patch, probably more than strong enough.

Your ply orientation (transverse face ply) showed that you actually understood engineering. I am astounded by the never-ending boat plans that get published with grain going longidudinally, supported by multiple longitudinal stringers (ugh). I've used grain just as you describe in custom designs. It just makes more structural sense.

The scarf issue is however one that is subject to some discussion. A 7:1 or even a 45 degree is certainly adequate in vertical shear, but terrible in bending. The reason you didn't have an issue with those scarfs was, I suspect, because the face grain, running transversly, was parallel to the scarfs and therefore the bending loads were not carried across the scarf joint.

Bear in mind that after patching, it will get -recut for a bailer...if you have a low angle scarf in the wrong place this could spell trouble. Fiberglass on each side will indeed do significantly to carry bending loads but if you do an analysis you can see whether that layer is really enough. Because glass is stiffer than wood, it preferentially takes the load.

 

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11 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Your ply orientation (transverse face ply) showed that you actually understood engineering. I am astounded by the never-ending boat plans that get published with grain going longidudinally, supported by multiple longitudinal stringers (ugh). I've used grain just as you describe in custom designs. It just makes more structural sense.

The scarf issue is however one that is subject to some discussion. A 7:1 or even a 45 degree is certainly adequate in vertical shear, but terrible in bending. The reason you didn't have an issue with those scarfs was, I suspect, because the face grain, running transversly, was parallel to the scarfs and therefore the bending loads were not carried across the scarf joint.

Bear in mind that after patching, it will get -recut for a bailer...if you have a low angle scarf in the wrong place this could spell trouble. Fiberglass on each side will indeed do significantly to carry bending loads but if you do an analysis you can see whether that layer is really enough. Because glass is stiffer than wood, it preferentially takes the load.

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, have built hundreds of boats and repaired many more, always learn from other people’s shortcomings and steal any good ideas you find!

i wouldn’t be too worried about flexing in that area as the distance from the side of the case to the first chine is about 23cm, the damaged area is also below the thwart so will not get stood on, it is also a relatively low flex area from a pounding situation, as most of that happens in front of the front bulkhead, I personally think you are over thinking and over engineering this,  for a novice to pull off even a half decent scarf is almost impossible without a decent work bench and quality sharp chisels and hand plane. My only concern with this repair is that the damaged area might be quite a bit bigger than the actual missing 20 or 30mm.

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50 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, have built hundreds of boats and repaired many more, always learn from other people’s shortcomings and steal any good ideas you find!

i wouldn’t be too worried about flexing in that area as the distance from the side of the case to the first chine is about 23cm, the damaged area is also below the thwart so will not get stood on, it is also a relatively low flex area from a pounding situation, as most of that happens in front of the front bulkhead, I personally think you are over thinking and over engineering this,  for a novice to pull off even a half decent scarf is almost impossible without a decent work bench and quality sharp chisels and hand plane. My only concern with this repair is that the damaged area might be quite a bit bigger than the actual missing 20 or 30mm.

All true. I have the same thought but we'll see what Admiral can do. Remember, there's the swamp yankee fix I haven't told him about yet...and he seems very keen. When you get a kid his age that has already taken the effort to cut pieces of wood and actually build a boat, you know you are already at 6 sigma from the mean and there is a lot of potential there.

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I have cut the rot out out of the hole, and now I am just trying to source a small piece of marine plywood, its annoying how it doesn't  seem to exist any hardware stores and lumber yards. I also have been working on varnishing the deck.

Now, I have a rigging question, where do the stays connect to my spreaders? I havn't been able to figure it out and I was worried that a piece was missing for the spreaders.

Some pics of the spreader tips

DSCN3143.thumb.JPG.69b5abed37d87313adb1a31a44df5231.JPGDSCN3142.thumb.JPG.afc947360d223356697938544183d142.JPGDSCN3141.thumb.JPG.cb58ba13fd8acae537cbfea3d495345e.JPGDSCN3139.thumb.JPG.feca3a473139b5d33f4fabbbba4bcdd7.JPG

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52 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

I have cut the rot out out of the hole, and now I am just trying to source a small piece of marine plywood, its annoying how it doesn't  seem to exist any hardware stores and lumber yards. I also have been working on varnishing the deck.

 

Can you measure (preferably with a micrometer) the exact thickness of the plywood, how many plies it is, and whether they are all the same thickness or if not, what the thicknesses are? This will help to find the right plywood. You won't find it locally but with that information we will be able to.

For varnishing--see if you can use a safe (not methylene chloride) stripper to get it off first.

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Here is a photo of he end of my Procter spreader showing how the stay is clamped in place by the plastic end cap. You can turn the end cap around, ie, loosen the bolt and rotate it 180 degrees fore and aft and then re clamp the shroud, or remove the cap completely and lash the shroud to the end of the spreader with dyneema or thin stainless wire.

65B5824A-F414-45FB-9F36-E3F498D7E386.jpeg

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Goggle Selden spreader end cap. I guess they're about the equivalent of £5. That's outrageous, but not as outrageous as your rig falling down.

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5 hours ago, Major Tom said:

Here is a photo of he end of my Procter spreader showing how the stay is clamped in place by the plastic end cap. You can turn the end cap around, ie, loosen the bolt and rotate it 180 degrees fore and aft and then re clamp the shroud, or remove the cap completely and lash the shroud to the end of the spreader with dyneema or thin stainless wire.

65B5824A-F414-45FB-9F36-E3F498D7E386.jpeg

Thanks

 

 

 

11 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Can you measure (preferably with a micrometer) the exact thickness of the plywood, how many plies it is, and whether they are all the same thickness or if not, what the thicknesses are? This will help to find the right plywood. You won't find it locally but with that information we will be able to.

For varnishing--see if you can use a safe (not methylene chloride) stripper to get it off first.

The thickest point is 17/32 '' thick. I can't tell the  exact width of the plywood itself very well, but it seems to be 4 ply and 3/8''. The rest of the 17/32'' I mentioned is taken up by a thick layer of epoxy paint and reinforcing (which varies in thickness)and the paint on the outside. If this seems unclear, please let me know and I will try to explain more clearly

In conclusion, width is 17/32 including paint on the exterior and epoxy paint and reinforcing on the interior, with 3/8 plywood in the middle

The width does not stay the same around the opening, anywere from 17/32''thickest to around 1/4''thinnest.

 

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Fireball class rules called  for 6mm ply on the bottom panels, 4 ply was in effect 2 layers of 4mm ply with one outer veneer missing on each, bonded together, 5 ply was optimal, but 3 ply was also available, all with a nominal thickness of 6mm. I honestly don’t believe you need to match the exact laminate profile of the ply, you just need the correct thickness for a small patch like this.

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A few photos of 3 boats I built over 25 years ago sailing in the worlds in Mossel bay South Africa 4 years ago, not at the sharp end of the fleet but still mid fleet and surviving some punishing conditions 

photos off Ben Schultz’s Flickr  page

F9E563A1-D2B1-4DCC-8510-62EEAC7B2415.jpeg

CC66BE83-66D0-4559-A990-D9A41811F3B2.jpeg

70000F9B-D59E-46D6-AE14-327926DF7A95.jpeg

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 Those are really beautiful boats! Do you build boats for a living? Who cares if they aren't at the top, I would rather be sailing a boat thats looks like that in the middle of the fleet than that leading in a ugly modern one.

And the pictures are awsome too! I can't wait to be doing that in our Fireball.

And of course I have another rigging question: our boat dosn't seem  to have a forestay, I can't find any attachment point for one anywhere one the mast!

picsDSCN3148.thumb.JPG.34801ddaedeb713eddf18c8036e76d17.JPGDSCN3146.thumb.JPG.cf83799e6c8502bcf2d6a4ba34cb5244.JPG

No sign of a forestay anything, thoughts?

 

 

 

 

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There was a lazy forestay fitted through the hole in the front of the mast, the wire was terminated by feeding out through the spin haliard exit block opening, the ferrule or nicro press stopped the wire pulling through the hole. The forestay wire in your jib does all the work while sailing, the lazy forestay is simply there to hold the rig up when the jib is down and because the class rules say it must be there.

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3 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Thanks

 

 

 

The thickest point is 17/32 '' thick. I can't tell the  exact width of the plywood itself very well, but it seems to be 4 ply and 3/8''. The rest of the 17/32'' I mentioned is taken up by a thick layer of epoxy paint and reinforcing (which varies in thickness)and the paint on the outside. If this seems unclear, please let me know and I will try to explain more clearly

In conclusion, width is 17/32 including paint on the exterior and epoxy paint and reinforcing on the interior, with 3/8 plywood in the middle

The width does not stay the same around the opening, anywere from 17/32''thickest to around 1/4''thinnest.

 

Fastyacht, here is a picture of one of the pieces of plywood I cut out.

DSCN3169.thumb.JPG.69f0c3970cc83efc6a9e4917a8f8bea1.JPG

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6 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Goggle Selden spreader end cap. I guess they're about the equivalent of £5. That's outrageous, but not as outrageous as your rig falling down.

See: http://www.seldenmast.com/en/dinghy/dinght_products/spreader_systems.html

Recommend having a couple extra's on hand as the plastic part can degrade over time after UV exposure and can select the worst time to break. I think I purchased some through APS (gone unfortunately) but the Selden lists many choices in the US.

Screen Shot 2020-06-04 at 11.45.15 AM.png

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1 hour ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Fastyacht, here is a picture of one of the pieces of plywood I cut out.

DSCN3169.thumb.JPG.69f0c3970cc83efc6a9e4917a8f8bea1.JPG

Perfect. That's 5 layers, all equal thickness. Measure it without all the paint and you probably come up with what Tom said--6 mm which is a quarter inch, but marine mahogany (usually actually sapele, sipo, or kaya, or meranti) is sold in mm thicknesses. I have a lot of 3 mm. Lots of it. I have a piece of 8 mm. All you need is a fairly small piece of 6 mm. Maybe someone has some. Otherwise:

https://www.boulterplywood.com/MarinePlywood_4.htm

image.thumb.png.1bfbb7e069bc25f2fc4569504470c0ed.png

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40 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Perfect. That's 5 layers, all equal thickness. Measure it without all the paint and you probably come up with what Tom said--6 mm which is a quarter inch, but marine mahogany (usually actually sapele, sipo, or kaya, or meranti) is sold in mm thicknesses. I have a lot of 3 mm. Lots of it. I have a piece of 8 mm. All you need is a fairly small piece of 6 mm. Maybe someone has some. Otherwise:

https://www.boulterplywood.com/MarinePlywood_4.htm

image.thumb.png.1bfbb7e069bc25f2fc4569504470c0ed.png

Most decent marine ply is oukoume or gaboon.

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34 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

Most decent marine ply is oukoume or gaboon.

???. That's not true.

You can get LR BS-1088 in  Sapele, Sipo, Kaya (all African) Meranti (S.E. asian) or Okoune (Gaboon) which is African.
Gaboon is the lowest density and weakest of these. It is also the least rot resistant. But being low density (same as white pine more or less) it makes for efficient lightweight rigid structures. It has been popular for dinghies but it is most definitely not superior to Meranti or the African "mahoganies). Meranty is about 2/3 or even less of the cost of Sapele and for this purpose I see no reason to spend the extra when the properties are not going to be importantly superior.

There are a lot of 505 with ribbon stripe sapele foredecks...

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Boulter a 2' x 4' piece of 6 mm Meranti sis $18. a piece of Okoume is $25. The Okoume is lighter, softer, weaker, more rot prone, and more expensive. Both are BS-1088. Meranti for the win.

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36 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Boulter a 2' x 4' piece of 6 mm Meranti sis $18. a piece of Okoume is $25. The Okoume is lighter, softer, weaker, more rot prone, and more expensive. Both are BS-1088. Meranti for the win.

Meranti is a very vague timber classification, there are more than 80 different timber species classified as meranti, what you forgot to mention is that okoume is recommended for use where weight is critical, so I can almost 100% guarantee you that every competitive marine ply boat built in a class where it is hard to build a boat to minimum weight has been built with okoume ply, and most of that would have been sourced from Holland, France, Israel or Greece, although the timber comes from Africa.

The chances are extremely good the boat was originally built out of Okoume ply, what are you concerned about with putting a patch in with a thin layer of glass over it as it will be a different structure to the original structure, then you want to use a heavier stiffer piece of ply for the patch, I really don’t understand your logic.

Although, in reality you could use almost anything to do the patch with as long as it is properly sealed as it is not in a structural area of the boat,  all the timber Fireballs in the photos I posted above were built in 1992 to 1994 with Okoume plywood made in Israel, they have not rotted away, they are still stiff and still look beautiful.They were not epoxy coated, merely painted with polyurethane varnish and paint, and the UV in South Africa is among the harshest in the world.

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4 hours ago, Major Tom said:

Meranti is a very vague timber classification, there are more than 80 different timber species classified as meranti, what you forgot to mention is that okoume is recommended for use where weight is critical, so I can almost 100% guarantee you that every competitive marine ply boat built in a class where it is hard to build a boat to minimum weight has been built with okoume ply, and most of that would have been sourced from Holland, France, Israel or Greece, although the timber comes from Africa.

The chances are extremely good the boat was originally built out of Okoume ply, what are you concerned about with putting a patch in with a thin layer of glass over it as it will be a different structure to the original structure, then you want to use a heavier stiffer piece of ply for the patch, I really don’t understand your logic.

Although, in reality you could use almost anything to do the patch with as long as it is properly sealed as it is not in a structural area of the boat,  all the timber Fireballs in the photos I posted above were built in 1992 to 1994 with Okoume plywood made in Israel, they have not rotted away, they are still stiff and still look beautiful.They were not epoxy coated, merely painted with polyurethane varnish and paint, and the UV in South Africa is among the harshest in the world.

Like I said, okoume is very light and therefore makes excellent dinghies. It is also more expensive than meranti. It's a patch. A bit heavier denser patch is not a bad thing. And it is less expensive to boot. If you don't take care of okoume I guarantee it will rot out faster than dark red meranti. (Rot is not the issue here. The rest of the boat is older than the patch...)

Meranti is sold in three main trade designations. There are indeed dozens of species (same is true of most commercial timber designations by the way--"white oak: for instance).  White, Light Red, and Dark Red Meranti. There are many trading names. Lauan, Shorea, Meranti, Philipine Mahogany are all in this group of species.

You can look all this up in the U.S. Forest Products "Wood Handbook" which for close to 20 years has been available in PDF. I have two print copies of course -- one from before the war :)

I would say that the bottom of a dinghy is structural though...especially when you cut a bailer hole in it haha. Well, the part that's left is.

The logic: it is less expensive and harder than okoume. It is available to BS 1088. It is a proper piece of marine plywood with the correct thickness and lamination pattern. If scarfed well there is no need for fiberglass over it. If you want to, OK but not required. Mostly that's a "paint film thickness insurance policy."

Oh and 7:1 is probably OK. Probably. Haha.

 

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