Gabe_nyc

Strange Attachment for Mainsheet

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Boat is 30-ft Tartan 3000.

Picture shows complicated attachment of the mainsheet eye to the traveler, using a second line, tie wraps and some whipping.

It seems simpler to just use a second shackle to connect the sheet eye to the traveler car pin.

Is there a benefit to the current arrangement that escapes me?

7D04090F-DB3E-4AFF-982D-AC0893FDB701.jpeg

9707AB24-220D-4A76-9A42-4103ED2C385E.jpeg

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What is a lashing. Sometimes handy, here perhaps to get better alignment, perhaps to save using 2 or 3 shackles. You might ask.

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I think they wanted it on the snap shackle, so that the entire sheet could be easily removed from the traveler. Each to their own.

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Looks like the top block didn't have a becket so they took it down to the snap shackle.

Good thinking.

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25 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

I think they wanted it on the snap shackle, so that the entire sheet could be easily removed from the traveler. Each to their own.

That’s a good point.

So what if I connected the sheet to the snap shackle with a regular shackle?

There is nothing wrong with the current arrangement, but it just seems overly complex ...

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It looks to me like the main sheet was replaced with a line that was already replaced. 


OR

someone wanted to add another part to the sheet setup to make it easier and that’s what they thought of. 
 

does a becket exist on any blocks in the setup?

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Is the idea that the green bit is sacrificial and is allowed to chafe, to avoid having to re-do the splice in the mainsheet?

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They cobbled the parts they had to do the job.  A triple block with becket would have been tidy.  Probably does the job.  

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Astro and Diamond Jim have it - it's a bodge.

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They wanted to add 1 to the power of the tackle, didn't have a becket on the fiddle block, and the snap shackle bale doesn't open to take the eye splice. They could have used a second shackle rather than the lashing, but what's wrong with the lashing? To clean it up properly, get a fiddle block with a becket.

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7 hours ago, Gabe_nyc said:

That’s a good point.

So what if I connected the sheet to the snap shackle with a regular shackle?

There is nothing wrong with the current arrangement, but it just seems overly complex ...

maybe they wanted to be able to change from say 4:1 to 3:1 or somesuch  for lighter winds..

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Try a shackle. You may discover the issue. The lashings are clever way to keep everything in the right place. Probably due to the lack of a becket (@astro).

I wouldn't use a snap shackle there. Especially with a lanyard on the release. The mainsheet shouldn't have any voluntary failure modes which could lead to disaster.

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A soft solution is a good way to go for the location.  Don't need more metal flying around in that area.

One of those things that works so will probably be left alone, but it's a bit annoying and tempting to tidy up one day.

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4 hours ago, El Boracho said:

I wouldn't use ... a lanyard on the release.

Good point — I will take off the lanyard.

1 hour ago, astro said:

One of those things that works so will probably be left alone, but it's a bit annoying and tempting to tidy up one day.

I’m ok to leave it alone for now, but if it starts to go I will switch to second shackle.

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BTW, the reason I started looking at that is because the traveller line needs replacing. 

The current one is lashed very neatly, but I thing a bowline knot will do as well. What do you all thing about knot vs lashing here?

E0B780B8-BF1B-410D-AE47-0F89B3DC0999.jpeg

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6 hours ago, DDW said:

They wanted to add 1 to the power of the tackle, didn't have a becket on the fiddle block, and the snap shackle bale doesn't open to take the eye splice. They could have used a second shackle rather than the lashing, but what's wrong with the lashing? To clean it up properly, get a fiddle block with a becket.

If you look closely, the upper block in the pic appears to be a double, so functionally the whole lash-up is a triple with a becket,  a six part tackle.  A fiddle wont do it 

 

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9 minutes ago, Gabe_nyc said:

BTW, the reason I started looking at that is because the traveller line needs replacing. 

The current one is lashed very neatly, but I thing a bowline knot will do as well. What do you all thing about knot vs lashing here?

E0B780B8-BF1B-410D-AE47-0F89B3DC0999.jpeg

A Bowline is not a good choice for that location.  It is too bulky and will undo, that's what they are designed to do.

 I would duplicate the existing setup, it's compact, won't come undone and looks good.

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A buntline hitch (ABOK 1711) is more compact and more secure.

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8 minutes ago, Diamond Jim said:

A buntline hitch (ABOK 1711) is more compact and more secure.

Will be likely to jamb.

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Buntline hitch should work there. The fact that it tends to jam should not be a problem.

Thank you for the suggestion.

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4 hours ago, Diamond Jim said:

 

If you look closely, the upper block in the pic appears to be a double, so functionally the whole lash-up is a triple with a becket,  a six part tackle.  A fiddle wont do it 

 

A double fiddle would. There are even triple fiddles. Or a becket on the double block. Or a real triple with a becket and the cam cleat. But I'm fine with the lashing, I question at what point there is more friction in the system that is gained by an extra part on the tackle. 

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5 minutes ago, DDW said:

...I question at what point there is more friction in the system that is gained by an extra part on the tackle. 

Around 6 to 1. The friction is greatly dependent on the size of the line. Small line on huge sheaves has low friction. But it is rare to see such a thing. The pic in #1 shows rather large line for the sheave diameter. It is the work put into bending/crushing/rubbing the line fibers around the tight curve that causes the friction.

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Hi all,

There is no becket on that block.  (For now I am content to leave it alone, but I wanted to understand what’s going on so I would know how to respond in case of mishap.)

Here is an additional picture:

A2A72D37-98E5-45AB-9832-67CA2D681B20.jpeg

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3 hours ago, Gabe_nyc said:

Hi all,

There is no becket on that block.  (For now I am content to leave it alone, but I wanted to understand what’s going on so I would know how to respond in case of mishap.)

Here is an additional picture:

A2A72D37-98E5-45AB-9832-67CA2D681B20.jpeg

As pointed out above, the mishap is going to be that fucking snap shackle coming undone at an inopertune moment. I understand why someone might like to be able to clear the mainsheet out of the way, but I wouldn't add the risk.

That's a lot of purchase on a boat that big. I'd just remove that last part that the PO added in.

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you can easily add a fine tune now...

 

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One thing I wouldn't like about it is that is a tall piece of hardware that is going to flail like crazy during a gybe or high wind take down. Harken makes a triple block with cam cleat, ratchet, and becket, clean all that up and get it much more compact and less than half that tall.

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5 hours ago, DDW said:

One thing I wouldn't like about it is that is a tall piece of hardware that is going to flail like crazy during a gybe or high wind take down. Harken makes a triple block with cam cleat, ratchet, and becket, clean all that up and get it much more compact and less than half that tall.

Shop your local craigslist... beach cat guys use this kind of gear for their mainsheet systems.

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7 hours ago, randii said:
12 hours ago, DDW said:

One thing I wouldn't like about it is that is a tall piece of hardware that is going to flail like crazy during a gybe or high wind take down. Harken makes a triple block with cam cleat, ratchet, and becket, clean all that up and get it much more compact and less than half that tall.

Shop your local craigslist... beach cat guys use this kind of gear for their mainsheet systems.

True, and the triples work best with a small sheet diameter.  Go down a rope size or two.

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26 minutes ago, astro said:

True, and the triples work best with a small sheet diameter.  Go down a rope size or two.

Tapered lines are pretty slick, as well. When you run this many parts of purchase, there's lots of length, so smaller sheets in the blocks help, but you'll want fatter line and covering though cleats or in your mitts. 

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48 minutes ago, randii said:

Tapered lines are pretty slick, as well. When you run this many parts of purchase, there's lots of length, so smaller sheets in the blocks help, but you'll want fatter line and covering though cleats or in your mitts. 

Still could go down one size at the loose end with no ill effects.  Had a couple of tapers on my last boat.

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similar sized boat and set up with a triple on the bottom.

 image.png.ca07dd923d345c1d9cfcd3298c55f818.png

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On 5/21/2020 at 6:38 PM, Diamond Jim said:

A buntline hitch (ABOK 1711) is more compact and more secure.

I replaced the those lines, tied a buntline hitch and all looks / works well.

Thank you

EBDD065C-4C39-4D9F-B763-EB3158D895DB.jpeg

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FWIW, I had time on my hands one long snowy winter month and put eye splices in the traveler lines.  Looks neat! Turns out that the tails of the splices limit the last few inches of travel though :unsure:

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46 minutes ago, toddster said:

FWIW, I had time on my hands one long snowy winter month and put eye splices in the traveler lines.  Looks neat! Turns out that the tails of the splices limit the last few inches of travel though :unsure:

Yeah, that bugs me too. Probably unreasonable, but...  That is the advantage of the simple whipped eye pictured in Post #15 over both ugly knots and fancy splices. Plenty strong for a traveler control line.  A Brummel lock splice eye in a stripped core would probably work too.

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What's up with snapshackle attachment to the traveller car?  Last thing I'd want is the thing opening up during a gybe in the middle of the night.   Probably just me.

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On 5/22/2020 at 12:55 PM, JMOD said:

you can easily add a fine tune now...

Yes, I think it originally had a fine tune and it has been removed...

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1 hour ago, ExOmo said:

What's up with snapshackle attachment to the traveller car?  Last thing I'd want is the thing opening up during a gybe in the middle of the night.   Probably just me.

For now, I don’t want to mess with it, but at El Boracho’s suggestion earlier, I took off the lanyard.

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On 5/23/2020 at 11:09 PM, Slick470 said:

similar sized boat and set up with a triple on the bottom.

 image.png.ca07dd923d345c1d9cfcd3298c55f818.png

This was my first thought. I’ve seen some of the cat guys put a saddle above the cleat. That is a mod.
 

It’s one of those she be right rigs. You are putting the 4 small screws that hold the cleat bracket on in direct shear. The saving grace is that because it’s the end of the line there isn’t as much load.

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6 hours ago, toddster said:

FWIW, I had time on my hands one long snowy winter month and put eye splices in the traveler lines.  Looks neat! Turns out that the tails of the splices limit the last few inches of travel though :unsure:

And harder to end for end

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Snap shackles usually are lower rated, often see stress cracks in bad places.

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5 hours ago, Bruno said:

Snap shackles usually are lower rated, often see stress cracks in bad places.

A few years ago I bought a 1981 28-ft boat that was in good shape generally, except that this was the snap shackle on the mainsheet / traveller (the boom side was almost as bad).

5D62273B-9050-4ACC-9FD5-A918AD4E08D9.jpeg

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14 hours ago, Bruno said:

Why does the becket look unused?

Because in the case of that picture, it is. The picture shows how the boat was rigged by the PO. I have left it that way and it has continued to work just fine. I take it apart yearly and look it over, and I haven't seen any deformation. Oddly, when I bought the boat, this lower triple assembly was fine, however the upper triple had eaten itself and has been replaced. To make matters even more confusing. I ordered the upper triple without a becket, but the block that was shipped had one. So there are actually two unused beckets. 

My guess is the lower becket was the original attachment point and someone didn't feel like splicing or tying a not to it. I honestly don't know the history, but since the mainsheet is spliced and I haven't needed to replace it, I've just kept it that way. 

This arrangement does add an option for the OP that could help clean up his funky install. 

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22 hours ago, El Boracho said:

Yeah, that bugs me too. Probably unreasonable, but...  That is the advantage of the simple whipped eye pictured in Post #15 over both ugly knots and fancy splices. Plenty strong for a traveler control line.  A Brummel lock splice eye in a stripped core would probably work too.

Yes.  To avoid the bulge and limiting travel, we used a dyneema cored line, stripped the last 18" or so and the splice worked perfectly.

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18 hours ago, Bruno said:

Why does the becket look unused?

because it's easier to put an eye splice on the d shackle than it is to splice an eye to a becket i'm guessing

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21 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

This was my first thought. I’ve seen some of the cat guys put a saddle above the cleat. That is a mod.
 

It’s one of those she be right rigs. You are putting the 4 small screws that hold the cleat bracket on in direct shear. The saving grace is that because it’s the end of the line there isn’t as much load.

So your post got me thinking about this arrangement. Should I change it to go to the becket or leave as is. I dug through a bunch of the pictures I've saved off of sister ships of ours and quite a few of them have it rigged like mine, so I wonder if it was done that way from the factory. Also, I looked at Harken's reeving diagrams and noticed that I had the image below saved off for reference. Per the Harken "how to" article it says this about 6:1 systems: 

Consider using the back of the cleat as a becket.

This has the advantage of ensuring the bottom block sits up with the cleat nicely presented. If you decide to fit a fine-tune system, the second purchase will sit outside the main system, making it much easier to use.

6-1-cam_reeving-diagram-lg.jpg?n=7390

So, I guess it isn't as dodgy as I was starting to think it is. Although it looks like I've got an extra shackle or two that could be repurposed.

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43 minutes ago, Slick470 said:

So your post got me thinking about this arrangement. Should I change it to go to the becket or leave as is. I dug through a bunch of the pictures I've saved off of sister ships of ours and quite a few of them have it rigged like mine, so I wonder if it was done that way from the factory. Also, I looked at Harken's reeving diagrams and noticed that I had the image below saved off for reference. Per the Harken "how to" article it says this about 6:1 systems: 

Consider using the back of the cleat as a becket.

This has the advantage of ensuring the bottom block sits up with the cleat nicely presented. If you decide to fit a fine-tune system, the second purchase will sit outside the main system, making it much easier to use.

6-1-cam_reeving-diagram-lg.jpg?n=7390

So, I guess it isn't as dodgy as I was starting to think it is. Although it looks like I've got an extra shackle or two that could be repurposed.

Cool, I've never seen that Harken diagram before and the explanation makes sense.  Stuff like this renews my faith in SA and the ability to find some neat new info once in awhile, between all the fucking noise!

Note to anyone who tries this modification:  the original cam cleat bolts will probably not be long enough to fit the eye strap too - have longer bolts onhand.  Just sayin...

 

Cheers!

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2 hours ago, CriticalPath said:

... have longer bolts onhand. 

Also acorn nuts ...

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I had another thought about my strange lash-up. In the picture is pulley with a removable becket pin.

It seems plausible that another block had been use that had a removable becket pin.

For whatever reason, the PO decided to switch to the current Harken 6:1 setup with a riveted, non-removable becket.

So maybe the explanation is simply that they didn’t want to cut the loop off the line, so they resorted to the current setup ...

B1BAE935-46B0-4B2E-B4BC-0C8209F51B5D.jpeg

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6 hours ago, Slick470 said:

So your post got me thinking about this arrangement. Should I change it to go to the becket or leave as is. I dug through a bunch of the pictures I've saved off of sister ships of ours and quite a few of them have it rigged like mine, so I wonder if it was done that way from the factory. Also, I looked at Harken's reeving diagrams and noticed that I had the image below saved off for reference. Per the Harken "how to" article it says this about 6:1 systems: 

Consider using the back of the cleat as a becket.

This has the advantage of ensuring the bottom block sits up with the cleat nicely presented. If you decide to fit a fine-tune system, the second purchase will sit outside the main system, making it much easier to use.

6-1-cam_reeving-diagram-lg.jpg?n=7390

So, I guess it isn't as dodgy as I was starting to think it is. Although it looks like I've got an extra shackle or two that could be repurposed.

that's exactly how I used to rig it in my old hobie cat.

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On 5/22/2020 at 1:32 AM, Gabe_nyc said:

Hi all,

There is no becket on that block.  (For now I am content to leave it alone, but I wanted to understand what’s going on so I would know how to respond in case of mishap.)

Here is an additional picture:

A2A72D37-98E5-45AB-9832-67CA2D681B20.jpeg

The normal fix is to add a pad eye/guide to the top of the cam cleat and terminated it there. I have no idea why that didn't work. Perhpa they didn't know.

 

1Ao5XYYHVbJxI6LLaOho0UpIkBFEe2oiAw0oGJEYOr this:

 

A sewn eye is a good solution for the traveler.http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2016/11/rev.html

5800+lot,+chafe+guards,+EVAPCO+007.jpg

 

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