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Russell Brown

flattening Perfection paint

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This an oddball question, but has anyone tried making 2 part LP paint flat by misting it with water? I know that painting outside too late in the day can lead to flat paint from dewfall, but I want to do it in my shop. My eyeballs can't take reflection from glossy surfaces and I'm about to non-skid the forward end of the motorboat I'm building, so everything forward of where I sit. Even non-skid is glossy with this paint and I want it to go away. I know I can buy flattening agent, but it costs the same as the paint and it's clear. I'm not super chuffed with International after finding out the hard way that the reactor has a 2 year shelf life and it can't be purchase separately. I have lots of different colors in partially full cans, but the reactor is all toast, so it's all toxic waste instead of usable paint. Any ideas, or comments on my rant?

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I made the mistake of painting Alwgrip too late in the day and had the  dew fall on it. It does make it flat, but it does so by making micro pits in the surface. I think they would be real dirt magnets if left that way.

It was an interesting adventure into nano technology in that every bit of the pitted paint had to be sanded off or the new paint just beaded up like water on a greasy surface. 

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Use the official company formula or risk absolutely Fucking up  the entire job. 

 

BEAF8DA7-8D94-4A67-8576-6D8CA053CC23.jpeg

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Sorry, I've just used the flattening agents. It's mostly $$ clay / silica

You could try:

- adding talc to the paint and painting a test panel

- scrubbing a test panel with non-skid with red/maroon scotchbrite to uniformly dull the surface

 

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I thought traditionally flattening agents were glass beads. Have you tried mixing glass beads? They are at least cheap.

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Russell, you’ve done A LOT to promote the use of Perfection by us schlubs.  
I’d talk with an interlux marketing guy and ask him is he wants you to recommend Epifanes, Alexseal or, worst still, automotive finishes (not Awlgrip, same company)..

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It's like calling Bank of America. I read in in a Wooden Boat add that Epifanes has an LP that flows out without tipping and I'd like to know if anyone has tried applying it with a roller without tipping.

I can't imagine how much paint I've helped Interlux sell, but can I get them to send me a can or two of reactor? No. To make matters worse, I had to tip the job I did yesterday because the bubbles wouldn't pop and it came out lousy. No idea why as it's fresh reactor, but I feel like my book is a bit of a liability and maybe I should pull it. Any thoughts?

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7 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

It's like calling Bank of America. I read in in a Wooden Boat add that Epifanes has an LP that flows out without tipping and I'd like to know if anyone has tried applying it with a roller without tipping.

I can't imagine how much paint I've helped Interlux sell, but can I get them to send me a can or two of reactor? No. To make matters worse, I had to tip the job I did yesterday because the bubbles wouldn't pop and it came out lousy. No idea why as it's fresh reactor, but I feel like my book is a bit of a liability and maybe I should pull it. Any thoughts?

Please don't, I found it super useful.  My mast came out way better than it would have otherwise

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2 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

It's like calling Bank of America. I read in in a Wooden Boat add that Epifanes has an LP that flows out without tipping and I'd like to know if anyone has tried applying it with a roller without tipping.

I can't imagine how much paint I've helped Interlux sell, but can I get them to send me a can or two of reactor? No. To make matters worse, I had to tip the job I did yesterday because the bubbles wouldn't pop and it came out lousy. No idea why as it's fresh reactor, but I feel like my book is a bit of a liability and maybe I should pull it. Any thoughts?

Call Epifanes.  They’ve been regulars at the Maine Boatbuilders Show.  Friendly people.  The US office is in Thomaston Maine. 207-354-0804

To the original question about flattening LPU paint, Ive done some decks with Awlgrip loaded to the max with Griptex and it appeared flat.

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On 5/27/2020 at 1:22 AM, Gouvernail said:

Use the official company formula or risk absolutely Fucking up  the entire job. 

 

BEAF8DA7-8D94-4A67-8576-6D8CA053CC23.jpeg

This stuff works perfectly.  You can add a little or a lot to adjust how flat you want.  There is a Flattening Agent for both one part and two part paints.  As mentioned, stick with one manufacturer.

 

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Okay, I'll buy the flattening agent. I would like to try the Epifanes 2-part. I'm locked in on colors on the boat I'm building, so can't switch now, but I'd like to know how well it works with the roller-only method.

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2 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I would like to try the Epifanes 2-part. I'm locked in on colors on the boat I'm building, so can't switch now, but I'd like to know how well it works with the roller-only method.


I've been checking out the Epifanes 2-part since, unlike Perfection, it's available in Canada. So I might have an answer to that question in the next couple weeks if the weather cooperates.

I will say that I bought your book and it's a great reference, even for other paints. I was using a Valspar LIC50 2-part automotive poly which needed tipping to pop the bubbles, but the general strategies, roller technique, and masking tip are all super useful. Anyone who buys a $3 e-book and expects some kind of guarantee is just crazy anyway.

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For non-skid I've often done Griptex or one of the other non-skid beads broadcast in LP, never flattened the paint, if you get 100% coverage with the beads it ends up not glossy. The trick is getting the 100% coverage, because anywhere you miss will be glossy. For large surfaces use a drywall texture hopper gun to apply the beads, it's fast saves material and you can do large areas. It works really well.  

Never liked using flattening agents in LP, with Awlgrip anyway you're mixing 100% by volume so it's a whole lot of material to add that does who knows what to the durability of the paint, adding that much clear liquid to your paint makes it even more transparent and it often has inconsistent results in how flat it makes the paint.

Roller only seems to work with Awlgrip if you thin it 10-15%. If you under thin you'll get bubbles.

Curious to try Alexseal. 

 

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I repainted my new boat over the last days with Epifanes.

I used Mono-Urethane, because the boat already had a one-part paint on and I was locked in... I am very satisfied with the results.

For leaving out the tipping (also for two-part paints) I highly recommend Fries MagicCrater foam rollers. They pop the tiny bubbles without the extra step of tipping (zoom into the picture) and they leave no streaks at the edge of the roller.  I have no idea about the availability in North America. 

bye, Paul

friess_magic_crater_walze-1.png

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3 hours ago, toolbar said:

I repainted my new boat over the last days with Epifanes.

I used Mono-Urethane, because the boat already had a one-part paint on and I was locked in... I am very satisfied with the results.

For leaving out the tipping (also for two-part paints) I highly recommend Fries MagicCrater foam rollers. They pop the tiny bubbles without the extra step of tipping (zoom into the picture) and they leave no streaks at the edge of the roller.  I have no idea about the availability in North America. 

bye, Paul

friess_magic_crater_walze-1.png

get it in the US, hell it doesn't even turn up in searches

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18 hours ago, toolbar said:

I repainted my new boat over the last days with Epifanes.

I used Mono-Urethane, because the boat already had a one-part paint on and I was locked in... I am very satisfied with the results.

For leaving out the tipping (also for two-part paints) I highly recommend Fries MagicCrater foam rollers. They pop the tiny bubbles without the extra step of tipping (zoom into the picture) and they leave no streaks at the edge of the roller.  I have no idea about the availability in North America. 

bye, Paul

 

If you do the search on Google.de rather than Google.com you will find them. Available on Amazon.de or eBay.de. It is easy enough to have the trans shipped to the USA if the vendor is unwilling to do it. (It is actually Friess, not Fries). 

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6 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:
10 hours ago, DDW said:

  (It is actually Friess, not Fries). 

well that was actually a hellava lot easier...  mucho gracias..

(It is actually muchas, not mucho)

 

:P

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I used the two part Epifanes on a fiberglass dinghy after seeing samples of roll no tip on a guitar and a car fender at the Maine Boatbuilders Show a couple of years ago. I know and like Doug as I had an office next to his when they started in Portland. I was very pleased with the finish on my first try, though not as good as their samples, which are remarkable. The rollers aren't cheap either. It really challenges you to prep everything perfectly as the paint is very thin. I was using dark blue over their grey primer and it took two coats to cover and every flaw in my preparation was there for me to see. I use the dinghy lightly and it has held up very well.

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On 5/27/2020 at 9:51 AM, Zonker said:

Sorry, I've just used the flattening agents. It's mostly $$ clay / silica

You could try:

- adding talc to the paint and painting a test panel

- scrubbing a test panel with non-skid with red/maroon scotchbrite to uniformly dull the surface

 

In-mix flattening agents are typically talc or silica (cab-o-sil). There's a tradeoff in adding them to paint of varnish, tho: they make the finish softer and can interfere with flowout and/or solvent offgassing. You can add solvent to improve flowout, but that leaves you proportionally short on binder and pigment. You can add binder resin and solvent, but then you are thin on pigment. *shrug* Pigment alone is problematic in coatings; adding it and flattener leads to compromised film performance.

So, mechanical abrasion. Or chemical flattening, if that's your jam. 'Rubbing out' a finish has some real advantages: it doesn't compromise the chemistry or physical properties of the topcoat. It allows you to 'perfect' said topcoat at the same time you are adjusting gloss. If you wait the requisite time (!!!) and use good technique, you can end up with a sheen more consistent than a can-flattened finish applied any old how. 

Cons: You need to allow the topcoat to reach full hardness cure before setting to with your Scotchbrites or rubbing compounds. You are introducing microscopic swirls into your topcoat, which may speed oxidation. You are thinning your finish film. It's hard freaking work.

tl;dr A gloss topcoat mechanically rubbed down to a semigloss or satin sheen will perform better than the same coating with a load of talc dumped into it. But personally, I'd rather flatten the paint or varnish in the can, at least the last sacrificial layer of it, understanding that might mean lower resilience/adhesion/solvent resistance. 

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