Vaeredil

Dinghys on very small keelboats

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So, say you're on a budget and want to go "small, simple, and now". You get something like a Flicka 20,  for example, and head off down the coast to Mexico. What do you use as a dinghy?

 

Is there even room on the fore deck for a hard dinghy? If you make a cover can you tow one (always the downwind problem, one of my boats had a nice nick on the starboard side from a near miss, hard dinghy surfing down a wave)

Do you put up with stowage for an inflatable/RIB?

 

Perhaps a kayak? (Used a 14 foot as a dinghy before and the load carrying ability was not there, plus getting into it from the cockpit required balance I might not have in a few years)

 

SUP?

 

 

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6 hours ago, Vaeredil said:

You get something like a Flicka 20,  for example, and head off down the coast to Mexico

You are stupid if you cruise on one. OK, I do know a COUPLE who were cruising in a Flicka. They had a pretty small inflatable as a dinghy lashed to the deck. No room for it elsewhere.

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13 minutes ago, Zonker said:

You are stupid if you cruise on one. OK, I do know a COUPLE who were cruising in a Flicka. They had a pretty small inflatable as a dinghy lashed to the deck. No room for it elsewhere.

Yeah, so I've been told. Is it better if I want to sail in some seriously hairy places but can't afford a bigger boat? I want to hear more about this couple, that really is crazy. Make or break a relationship real fast!

Dinghy on deck makes sense. Would prefer a hard dinghy though, never trust inflatables with how hard they are to row :/ 

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13 minutes ago, Vaeredil said:

Yeah, so I've been told. Is it better if I want to sail in some seriously hairy places but can't afford a bigger boat? I want to hear more about this couple, that really is crazy. Make or break a relationship real fast!

Dinghy on deck makes sense. Would prefer a hard dinghy though, never trust inflatables with how hard they are to row :/ 

I have an idea. Measure and play with carboard on your foredeck. See how big you can make a dinghy that will fit there. Then bring the results here and we'll draw it up.

Won't take long.

image.thumb.png.4304992c41345ac89411ab9130b058ff.png

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3 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I have an idea. Measure and play with carboard on your foredeck. See how big you can make a dinghy that will fit there. Then bring the results here and we'll draw it up.

Won't take long.

Just got to buy the Flicka first...

 

I'm going to take you up on that offer some day!

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8 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

And nice avatar, Fast!

303592123_1200px-Mona_Lisa_by_Leonardo_da_Vinci_from_C2RMF_retouched_2.thumb.png.18e19be93d7816562cafd32286bc99db.png

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Actually a nesting dinghy would fit easily. Here's my FB11 scaled accurately (about 5'-9" nested) on the foredeck of a Flicka 20. 11' long when assembled.

We owned a 28' LOD cutter with a similar layout. We stowed jerry cans in front of the coachroof under the dinghy. Unless it was really really rough we could crack the fwd hatch for ventilation.

The guy on the Flicka was about 6'-2" and his wife was average. They did seem to manage but their speed was usually around 3.5 knots. Painfully slow.

image.png.627a1e06c78341dc3d9aa773d259b8c3.png

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Kind of makes getting to the bow awkward though. You need the special 10' narrow stern version. The green outline is the aft part of the hull; magenta is the bow.

image.png.ad99981430ebcaa7994531b472c5428c.png

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6 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Actually a nesting dinghy would fit easily. Here's my FB11 scaled accurately (about 5'-9" nested) on the foredeck of a Flicka 20. 11' long when assembled.

We owned a 28' LOD cutter with a similar layout. We stowed jerry cans in front of the coachroof under the dinghy. Unless it was really really rough we could crack the fwd hatch for ventilation.

The guy on the Flicka was about 6'-2" and his wife was average. They did seem to manage but their speed was usually around 3.5 knots. Painfully slow.

Damn, thanks for the detective work. Had a peek at the FB11 plans and that doesn't even look out of my skill range. Might have to think about building one, seems like it would work for almost any boat I ended up with.

I'm 6'2" myself, so that's honestly encouraging to hear. A big deal is made about standing headroom, but looking at my options there I'd have to go up to about 32-34 feet to get that kind of headroom in an actually seaworthy, solid boat. If I just wanted to bomb around on coastal hops I'd have more options but I seriously lust for some serious sailing. 

Thanks for the anecdotes and help!

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23 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Kind of makes getting to the bow awkward though. You need the special 10' narrow stern version. The green outline is the aft part of the hull; magenta is the bow.

image.png.ad99981430ebcaa7994531b472c5428c.png

Is that narrow stern version something you modify yourself or is it there in the plans? Also taking a peek at some of the building posts for the fb11, looks like I'd have to make a few modifications to assemble it in the water (little difficult on the bow of a flicka)

 

Edit: @Zonker , just realized the FB11 is your design, looking through Jud's posts about his nesting dinghy build. That's cool as fuck.

Edited by Vaeredil

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16 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Actually a nesting dinghy would fit easily. Here's my FB11 scaled accurately (about 5'-9" nested) on the foredeck of a Flicka 20. 11' long when assembled.

We owned a 28' LOD cutter with a similar layout. We stowed jerry cans in front of the coachroof under the dinghy. Unless it was really really rough we could crack the fwd hatch for ventilation.

The guy on the Flicka was about 6'-2" and his wife was average. They did seem to manage but their speed was usually around 3.5 knots. Painfully slow.

image.png.627a1e06c78341dc3d9aa773d259b8c3.png

I don't know what her appearance has to do with anything.  

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Yes, that was my first S&G design. It was our daily driver for 8 years and I commuted with it in the ice in Annapolis for one winter.

No, sorry the narrow stern version was a joke. But a slightly custom version would be simple enough these days. I did the FB11 in Fastship (ship specialized CAD program).

With Rhino that I use now developable shapes are easier.  

I never assembled it in the water more than once to see if it could be done. Sit it transversely on the cabintop, with ends supported by the lifelines. Bolt together (4 bolts with wing nuts), pick up and throw in the water.

 

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

You are stupid if you cruise on one. OK, I do know a COUPLE who were cruising in a Flicka. They had a pretty small inflatable as a dinghy lashed to the deck. No room for it elsewhere.

I've never understood the mentality behind those minimum big boats - or maybe it's maximum little boats?

There's one of them on my dock - maybe a Flicka or a PS24 - one of those kind of things. It is all done very high quality - bronze ports, heavy everything. Built like a Tayana 37 and its elk.

I'm sure you could buy a pretty sound 35' for what it would cost.

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8 hours ago, Vaeredil said:

So, say you're on a budget and want to go "small, simple, and now". You get something like a Flicka 20,  for example, and head off down the coast to Mexico. What do you use as a dinghy?

 

Is there even room on the fore deck for a hard dinghy? If you make a cover can you tow one (always the downwind problem, one of my boats had a nice nick on the starboard side from a near miss, hard dinghy surfing down a wave)

Do you put up with stowage for an inflatable/RIB?

 

Perhaps a kayak? (Used a 14 foot as a dinghy before and the load carrying ability was not there, plus getting into it from the cockpit required balance I might not have in a few years)

 

SUP?

 

 

go with the inflatables.

 

maxresdefault.jpg

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19 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Yes, that was my first S&G design. It was our daily driver for 8 years and I commuted with it in the ice in Annapolis for one winter.

No, sorry the narrow stern version was a joke. But a slightly custom version would be simple enough these days. I did the FB11 in Fastship (ship specialized CAD program).

With Rhino that I use now developable shapes are easier.  

I never assembled it in the water more than once to see if it could be done. Sit it transversely on the cabintop, with ends supported by the lifelines. Bolt together (4 bolts with wing nuts), pick up and throw in the water.

 

8 years is impressive, even for a sturdy dinghy and a workboat finish. Hold off on that custom version until I find a place to build here in Northern Ontario, though!  I'm very tempted to just go for it, assuming I can find a place to work. Pretty much any boat I buy is going to need a good dinghy, and I rarely see them sold with the hard rowing ones I prefer. That FB11 has some seriously good capacity, that one picture on your website with 4 people in it and still OK freeboard is pretty neat. I wonder if a version scaled a little down in all dimensions would be an interesting idea, considering max capacity would be a fit 24 year old and possibly a good looking girl. (or more likely, 3 big jugs of water and a 20lb bag of rice).  

As for assembling it on the bow, that does make sense. I can see myself doing something stupid and losing a wingnut ever other time I tried to assemble it in the water, anyhow. 

5 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I've never understood the mentality behind those minimum big boats - or maybe it's maximum little boats?

There's one of them on my dock - maybe a Flicka or a PS24 - one of those kind of things. It is all done very high quality - bronze ports, heavy everything. Built like a Tayana 37 and its elk.

I'm sure you could buy a pretty sound 35' for what it would cost.

 

Not sure, got any suggestions for 19k Canadian? There's an apparently good condition Flicka on Denman for that, probably sell for 16 or so. It's mostly a running costs thing for me: Sure, I may be able to get a pretty sound 35', but it's much more likely to have a bunch of maintenance issues at that price, less likely to be as seaworthy, I can get an anchor of the proper weight for the Flicka for less than half the price, and when I do have to haul the 35' out it is going to cost a lot more for bottom paint, new sails, etc. 

I've been doing a lot of ruminating on the pros and cons, honestly. 506 days left until the little red circle on my calendar where I quit my job, and I'd like to stretch the savings I'll have by then as long as humanly possible. If it helps, I'd like to sail along the west coast to Alaska, possibly as far as the Aleutian Islands, and afterwards would be looking at maybe Hawaii or sailing south along the west coast of the Americas.  

Open to all suggestions, seriously. I really value the input I get from all of you. 

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9 hours ago, Zonker said:

With Rhino that I use now developable shapes are easier.  

 

 

My favourite deevlopable program runs on DOS, (Nautilus). It's windows decscendant (ProSurf) is even more versatile. I find Rhino less effective for devloped surface design. But then again because I already had a great tool before rhino existed....maybe I didn't care to figure out how to use rhino for that. (I use rhino a lot--but not for true development).

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I've never understood the mentality behind those minimum big boats - or maybe it's maximum little boats?

There's one of them on my dock - maybe a Flicka or a PS24 - one of those kind of things. It is all done very high quality - bronze ports, heavy everything. Built like a Tayana 37 and its elk.

I'm sure you could buy a pretty sound 35' for what it would cost.

Minimum big boat. It has all the disadvantages of a big boat: keel, draft, heavy ballast, inboard, etc. None of the advantages of a little boat (beachable, minimal ballast, outboard or no motor etc)

There was a time when people bought new boats. A 20 footer costs 12% of what a 40 footer costs---or something...

A friend of mine bought a 1980 35 footer of real caliber for $16,000 US a few years ago...

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I am not sure a Flicka 20 is a very cost effective way to "Go Simple Go Now", last I checked they went for a premium price for a really small boat. I think you are looking at $35K and up for one.

That said, here are a couple of ideas:

https://www.boatstogo.com/kayaks-sk396.asp

kaboat-SK396-gray.jpg

 

https://www.boatstogo.com/inflatable-boat-am290.asp

AM290.jpg

Both of these can be rolled up and packed away. I would not ever try and tow a dinghy in the open ocean, sooner or later the result will be a missing dinghy or worse.

 

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9 hours ago, Zonker said:

Yes, that was my first S&G design. It was our daily driver for 8 years and I commuted with it in the ice in Annapolis for one winter.

No, sorry the narrow stern version was a joke. But a slightly custom version would be simple enough these days. I did the FB11 in Fastship (ship specialized CAD program).

With Rhino that I use now developable shapes are easier.  

I never assembled it in the water more than once to see if it could be done. Sit it transversely on the cabintop, with ends supported by the lifelines. Bolt together (4 bolts with wing nuts), pick up and throw in the water.

 

IS this your FB11?

https://bateau.com/studyplans/FB11_study.php?prod=FB11#specs

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15 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Minimum big boat. It has all the disadvantages of a big boat: keel, draft, heavy ballast, inboard, etc. None of the advantages of a little boat (beachable, minimal ballast, outboard or no motor etc)

There was a time when people bought new boats. A 20 footer costs 12% of what a 40 footer costs---or something...

A friend of mine bought a 1980 35 footer of real caliber for $16,000 US a few years ago...

Yup - a 35-45K 20 foot boat makes no sense at all to me. One could buy, just for one example, the best C&C 30 on the planet for that and have money left over for outfitting and fuel and so on and probably go twice as fast. I know of a nearby Alberg 35 with a new-ish diesel that would cost you maybe $10K.

https://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&id=3663169&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=lippincottmarine&&ywo=lippincottmarine&

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In use an inflatable Stand Up Paddle when on my own. Needs little storage space, doubles up as a toy.

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Achellies LT-2 rolls up smaller than most inflatables because it doesn’t have the transom board. 
 

A Yankee 30 strikes me as a good boat option for what you want to do. They sell for $4k (no engine, decent but older sails) to $15k (new sails and diesel) in the PNW.  Very solid boats, sail well, much more space than the Flicka. Many have done Pacific Rim loops.  I’ve sailed a lot on two of them (friends boats, both sold in the last couple of years). 

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23 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Minimum big boat. It has all the disadvantages of a big boat: keel, draft, heavy ballast, inboard, etc. None of the advantages of a little boat (beachable, minimal ballast, outboard or no motor etc)

There was a time when people bought new boats. A 20 footer costs 12% of what a 40 footer costs---or something...

A friend of mine bought a 1980 35 footer of real caliber for $16,000 US a few years ago...

A little boat should be significantly cheaper to maintain and berth, and perhaps be trailerable; as well as easier to manoeuvre.   From my reading of posts on this board it might be that, in the US at least, "slips" are now so expensive that these cost differences are becoming negligable?

 BITD, a 24' boat would be a much more affordable proposition than a 32' boat. These days you are given the impression that if you "can afford to sail" you might as well have a forty-footer...!

Cheers,

               W.

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4 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

A little boat should be significantly cheaper to maintain and berth, and perhaps be trailerable; as well as easier to manoeuvre.   From my reading of posts on this board it might be that, in the US at least, "slips" are now so expensive that these cost differences are becoming negligable?

 BITD, a 24' boat would be a much more affordable proposition than a 32' boat. These days you are given the impression that if you "can afford to sail" you might as well have a forty-footer...!

Cheers,

               W.

Well there is that...but in Fiberglass, the scale effect on size is not what it is with steel or wood, and pretty much anything is now 30 years old, not new. So you spend 5k to 20k purchase and 7k/year to sail versus paying 250k new and then 4k/year to sail...so no, the size is just not important like it was when new boats ruled and used boats were wood.

U.S. it isn't only slips but even moorings. 5 to 10 year wait for a mooring on Long Island Sound in many harbors. But in the outer areas you can slip a 35 footer for about 3k to 5k a year. Near NYC I have no idea but I'm sure it ain't cheap!

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13 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

A little boat should be significantly cheaper to maintain and berth, and perhaps be trailerable; as well as easier to manoeuvre.   From my reading of posts on this board it might be that, in the US at least, "slips" are now so expensive that these cost differences are becoming negligable?

 BITD, a 24' boat would be a much more affordable proposition than a 32' boat. These days you are given the impression that if you "can afford to sail" you might as well have a forty-footer...!

Cheers,

               W.

To a point - my marina doesn't have any slips a 30 foot boat won't fit in, so any boat between 0 and 30 feet would cost the same per year and a mooring is about the same for whatever boat you tie to it except the anchor costs go up to hold a bigger boat. The issues today with cost are vastly different than they were in the last century. Plenty of people are desperate to get rid of old boats, so for a boat that is going to be your home for long periods and make offshore passages, I cannot see the reasoning on going much below 30 feet unless you just happen to absolutely love a certain 20 foot boat.

Even if you want Pacific Seacraft boats, even there it makes no sense. The bigger ones are CHEAPER. The Flicka model must have one hell of a cult following :wacko:

See this boat : https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1980/pacific-seacraft-orion-27-2989982/

I could see one or two people comfortably voyaging on that boat without having to cut the handles off the toothbrushes and so on and the extra 7 feet are not really going to cost you much ;)

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10 hours ago, Vaeredil said:

8 years is impressive, even for a sturdy dinghy and a workboat finish. Hold off on that custom version until I find a place to build here in Northern Ontario, though!  I'm very tempted to just go for it, assuming I can find a place to work. Pretty much any boat I buy is going to need a good dinghy, and I rarely see them sold with the hard rowing ones I prefer. That FB11 has some seriously good capacity, that one picture on your website with 4 people in it and still OK freeboard is pretty neat. I wonder if a version scaled a little down in all dimensions would be an interesting idea, considering max capacity would be a fit 24 year old and possibly a good looking girl. (or more likely, 3 big jugs of water and a 20lb bag of rice).  

As for assembling it on the bow, that does make sense. I can see myself doing something stupid and losing a wingnut ever other time I tried to assemble it in the water, anyhow. 

 

Not sure, got any suggestions for 19k Canadian? There's an apparently good condition Flicka on Denman for that, probably sell for 16 or so. It's mostly a running costs thing for me: Sure, I may be able to get a pretty sound 35', but it's much more likely to have a bunch of maintenance issues at that price, less likely to be as seaworthy, I can get an anchor of the proper weight for the Flicka for less than half the price, and when I do have to haul the 35' out it is going to cost a lot more for bottom paint, new sails, etc. 

I've been doing a lot of ruminating on the pros and cons, honestly. 506 days left until the little red circle on my calendar where I quit my job, and I'd like to stretch the savings I'll have by then as long as humanly possible. If it helps, I'd like to sail along the west coast to Alaska, possibly as far as the Aleutian Islands, and afterwards would be looking at maybe Hawaii or sailing south along the west coast of the Americas.  

Open to all suggestions, seriously. I really value the input I get from all of you. 

All that sounds wonderful, but at 3 kts.  No frigging way.  I race a 20' boat.  Love the thing, but cruise it??  Hell no...  IMHO waterline is king 20' gets old real fast...  

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2 minutes ago, shaggy said:

All that sounds wonderful, but at 3 kts.  No frigging way.  I race a 20' boat.  Love the thing, but cruise it??  Hell no...  IMHO waterline is king 20' gets old real fast...  

I know someone who sailed a Cal 20 across the Atlantic. The boat did fine, they are actually pretty seaworthy little boats, but their summary of the trip was A LONG TIME in  a SMALL SPACE. Waterline really is king!

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30 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

That’s cheap for an Orion. They often go for almost double that. Nice boats, a friend and his wife lived on one for years.  They have a good layout and a lot of storage.  Sail pretty well too, though I think the cutter rig gets old pretty fast when short tacking. 

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1 hour ago, Alex W said:

Achellies LT-2 rolls up smaller than most inflatables because it doesn’t have the transom board. 
 

A Yankee 30 strikes me as a good boat option for what you want to do. They sell for $4k (no engine, decent but older sails) to $15k (new sails and diesel) in the PNW.  Very solid boats, sail well, much more space than the Flicka. Many have done Pacific Rim loops.  I’ve sailed a lot on two of them (friends boats, both sold in the last couple of years). 

Taking a peek at the Yankee 30, I really do like the look of those, and the Mark III versions seem like a very nice sailing boat from what data I can find. 

Honestly, the Flicka idea was born out of a limited Canadian market. After living aboard my 25' boat, I did decide 28-32 would probably be the sweet spot  but the west coast market is, even with Covid, not fantastic. Budget for initial purchase + whatever needs done on the boat before I start really sailing to about 20k Canadian (14.5k USD). 

 

Seems I'll definitely have to look south of the border but that's a sketchy proposition these days, I sure hope it's opened up in a year and a half. 

1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Yup - a 35-45K 20 foot boat makes no sense at all to me. One could buy, just for one example, the best C&C 30 on the planet for that and have money left over for outfitting and fuel and so on and probably go twice as fast. I know of a nearby Alberg 35 with a new-ish diesel that would cost you maybe $10K.

https://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&id=3663169&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=lippincottmarine&&ywo=lippincottmarine&

That Alberg looks pretty sweet. I can't believe some Flickas go for that much, seems ridiculous. Cheaper listings up here. 

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/83054

 

 

45 minutes ago, shaggy said:

All that sounds wonderful, but at 3 kts.  No frigging way.  I race a 20' boat.  Love the thing, but cruise it??  Hell no...  IMHO waterline is king 20' gets old real fast...  

Very true, plus they say quicker passages are safer passages. 

41 minutes ago, Alex W said:

That’s cheap for an Orion. They often go for almost double that. Nice boats, a friend and his wife lived on one for years.  They have a good layout and a lot of storage.  Sail pretty well too, though I think the cutter rig gets old pretty fast when short tacking. 

That is cheap, but I think 27k US is a little out of my budget reach (37k CAD vs 20 budget). Only reason I was considering the Flicka is that there's a few options up here for a very reasonable price compared to what I see in the states. 

I don't have a special desire for a particular boat or manufacturer, just need a boat that will be reliable and hopefully sail well in all (most) conditions. 

 

 

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This very old photo is me. It was called FB for "Fish Bote" - the original was covered inside and out with small fishes painted on a blue hull. Commercial fishermen loved it and were always giving me fish.  It actually lasted > 8 years. We gave it away when we moved from Annapolis.

https://bateau.com/boats/FB11/index.php#/3

This picture is a bit optimistic. 2 skinny to medium size adults + 2 kids and the transom just kisses the water.

https://bateau.com/boats/FB11/index.php#/5

 

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2 hours ago, Vaeredil said:

https://www.boats.com/sailing-boats/1972-yankee-30-7144185/

Plenty of sails, and apparently well equipped. Atomic 4 though, and not sure what version. 

Atomic 4s did not change all that much over their lifespan, so the version does not matter a lot except you need to order the correct spares. What matter a ton is if the engine in question is FWC or RWC. They cam both ways. Just like every other RWC engine, a RWC Atomic 4 is slowly corroding to death. If I were buying a boat with a RWC Atomic 4, I would assume it was near death and make my offer accordingly. On the good news side the engine is extremely well supported and you can even get new blocks now.

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15 minutes ago, Zonker said:

This very old photo is me. It was called FB for "Fish Bote" - the original was covered inside and out with small fishes painted on a blue hull. Commercial fishermen loved it and were always giving me fish.  It actually lasted > 8 years. We gave it away when we moved from Annapolis.

https://bateau.com/boats/FB11/index.php#/3

This picture is a bit optimistic. 2 skinny to medium size adults + 2 kids and the transom just kisses the water.

https://bateau.com/boats/FB11/index.php#/5

 

I love the Mullet! 

14 minutes ago, Zonker said:

They're not quite giving them away, but Yamaha 30's were well built and have high headroom in the main cabin.

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/nvn/bod/d/west-vancouver-yamaha-30-price-reduced/7104574268.html

21K ASKING

Damn, they really do have decent headroom. Another good option to look at, thank you so much. 21k is absolutely within reach. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Vaeredil said:

Taking a peek at the Yankee 30, I really do like the look of those, and the Mark III versions seem like a very nice sailing boat from what data I can find. 

I should add that the Tartan 30 is almost the same design (both are S&S designs with sequential design numbers), but the Tartan has 1 foot wider beam and a more open interior layout.  Worth comparing too.  This also looks to be a third derivative design of the Yankee 30/Tartan 30: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/northern-29, but I've never seen one of the boats in person.

I usually see a a couple of Yankee 30s sold in the PNW per year.

The thing to check on them is for deck core rot along the hull/deck joint.  That is their achilles heel and one spot where they weren't well sealed.

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If you really want to go small, I suggest at least investigating this boat.

https://sailinganarchy.com/advert/perry-20-custom-sailboat/

I saw it being built: Dennis Choate gave me the detailed builder's tour. It is a beautiful and wonderful boat.

@Bob Perry can probably provide drawings.

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15 hours ago, VWAP said:

go with the inflatables.

 

maxresdefault.jpg

The cheaper the better.

she needs a few tats on her ankle and behind her ear.

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3 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

You need to find one of those :

3bc14c83-7b7b-4df1-b920-b378b599677a.JPG

That brings back memories.

We used one of those for cruising for many years in the 80's (exact same model) around UK south coast and France north coast.

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8 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

You need to find one of those :

3bc14c83-7b7b-4df1-b920-b378b599677a.JPG

That thing looks like it would row like soggy cardboard

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18 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

And nice avatar, Fast!

Likes to be disgusted.
@mad get into action...

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9 minutes ago, Vaeredil said:

That thing looks like it would row like soggy cardboard

No, its not that good.

To get any kind of leverage you have to jam your feet between the inflated chamber and the floor, it spins really easily (whether you want it to or not) and in a crosswind it really comes into its own.

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In answer to the OP, hard dink is better in port but worse on at sea, lots depend on how and where you use the boat.  We cruised and lived aboard a Vancouver 27 in Hawaii and New England with a 7 foot Fatty Knees.  Hawaii you're going no place without the dink strapped on deck, and then it's a royal pita getting around to the bow.  But the boat fit, just, between mast and inner forestay and you could get around her on the side decks.  New England otoh we towed the dink everyplace we went and never felt the need to put her aboard.  Had an Avon like in the picture, soggy cardboard rows better truthfully and inflate/deflate is a drag.  But they do fit in the lazarette and no worries underway either onboard or towing.

On the thread drift to why go small?  We're on 23 feet now (not living aboard but cruising).  Lots of good reasons to stay small.  Around here our marina sells by the foot, like about $100 per per season.  Sails, bottom paint and almost everything else ends up lots less expensive over time.  More importantly I can sail the boat singlehanded easily, handling sails, reefing, docking, anchoring, mooring is all within solo capability, easily.  And I can wax the hull in a half day or less, clean the bottom with a snorkel, and when we visit places folks feel sorry for us and let us come alongside for showers, ice, dinner, beers, you name it.  

And you can still go places pretty handily.  Singlehanded up from Annapolis to New England took 8 days with only one overnight passage and sleeping on the hook or alongside every night but the one.  Ok, it's not a two night offshore transit, but with two aboard I'd have done that, and maybe taken a half day longer.  Long run, depends on your tolerance for living small.

 

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9 minutes ago, Vaeredil said:

That thing looks like it would row like soggy cardboard

True but on a small boat you tend to be close to the shore and when you are more than 2 onboard you can paddle it dragon boat style which works great especially if you get the strongest person to sit on leeward as the thing always want to bear away.

I've cruised the same coast as @JohnMB same era but using the French version which doesn't fold as well :

Bombard-AX2-RIB-BoatYamaha-25-HP-4-Strok

We are still alive despite using it in places with serious tidal currents!

On small boats I've even seen people using one of these in the 80s :

71HHqvMj1lL._AC_SL1200_.jpg

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39 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

You need to find one of those :

3bc14c83-7b7b-4df1-b920-b378b599677a.JPG

Is that a gunnel mount for an outboard? That will disqualify it as cheap immediately. 

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

Is that a gunnel mount for an outboard? That will disqualify it as cheap immediately. 

We had one of those when I was a kid. HATED IT :angry: Half way from the Thimble Islands to town the bow half split a seam, so my brother and I somehow made it to town holding the bow up in the air and the engine tilted back about 60 degrees :o  We found a wood rowboat, paid some dude $15 for the use of it, and stuck the motor on that and went back, much to the surprise of our parents!

Get one of these instead - about $600 brand new!

kaboat-SK396-gray.jpg

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

Is that a gunnel mount for an outboard? That will disqualify it as cheap immediately. 

I use a trolling motor that came with a canoe we bought for beach use when  camping a few years back... it was cheap but is adequate for our needs (on/off mooring and runs ashore). Wouldn't recommend it for exploring... but then, you can do that in a small boat, anyway, yes...?

Cheers,

               W.

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19 hours ago, Vaeredil said:

Not sure, got any suggestions for 19k Canadian? There's an apparently good condition Flicka on Denman for that, probably sell for 16 or so. It's mostly a running costs thing for me: Sure, I may be able to get a pretty sound 35', but it's much more likely to have a bunch of maintenance issues at that price, less likely to be as seaworthy, I can get an anchor of the proper weight for the Flicka for less than half the price, and when I do have to haul the 35' out it is going to cost a lot more for bottom paint, new sails, etc. 

I've been doing a lot of ruminating on the pros and cons, honestly. 506 days left until the little red circle on my calendar where I quit my job, and I'd like to stretch the savings I'll have by then as long as humanly possible. If it helps, I'd like to sail along the west coast to Alaska, possibly as far as the Aleutian Islands, and afterwards would be looking at maybe Hawaii or sailing south along the west coast of the Americas.  

Open to all suggestions, seriously. I really value the input I get from all of you. 

Keep in mind that costs are more related to displacement than LOA - except moorage of course.

Mary Lightfoot was designed by Huntingford for himself so...

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/rds/bod/d/point-roberts-31-huntingford-design/7123653912.htmlimage.png.2a2e687db1ebb14e8c31ff046b021710.png

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/nvn/bod/d/west-vancouver-yamaha-30-price-reduced/7104574268.htmlimage.png.48007a52639b2736b9d2d12d574ac8ad.png

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/boa/d/vancouver-peterson-33-sloop/7103687394.htmlimage.png.07553d8526b6d993b5fdda9979c25df8.png

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/boa/d/sechelt-peterson-34/7102083445.html

 

image.png

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31 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Thanks for the links. That mary lightfoot is an interesting boat but I'm not sure she'd be that good of a sailor. I don't have any yacht design experience so I can't say why but it just looks like it would wallow and probably not sail well upwind. Even the flicka, more constrained by its length to a slower hull speed I think would perform better. 

That yamaha 30 is appealing though, and the peterson 33 in Vancouver doesn't look half bad either. Marina costs I'm hoping to avoid whenever I can: part of the strategy to stretch my Canadian loonies is to anchor as much as possible. It's more the bottom paint, electrical systems, plumbing, new sails and sail repairs etc etc that I want to minimize or avoid where possible. 

3 hours ago, deep c said:

 On the thread drift to why go small?  We're on 23 feet now (not living aboard but cruising).  Lots of good reasons to stay small.  Around here our marina sells by the foot, like about $100 per per season.  Sails, bottom paint and almost everything else ends up lots less expensive over time.  More importantly I can sail the boat singlehanded easily, handling sails, reefing, docking, anchoring, mooring is all within solo capability, easily.  And I can wax the hull in a half day or less, clean the bottom with a snorkel, and when we visit places folks feel sorry for us and let us come alongside for showers, ice, dinner, beers, you name it.  

And you can still go places pretty handily.  Singlehanded up from Annapolis to New England took 8 days with only one overnight passage and sleeping on the hook or alongside every night but the one.  Ok, it's not a two night offshore transit, but with two aboard I'd have done that, and maybe taken a half day longer.  Long run, depends on your tolerance for living small.

 

What you talk about with respect to easy handling and lower costs is exactly why I was hoping to find something smaller. I won't deny more space and the associated speed with a 34' boat would be very nice, but I don't *need* it, and would rather put my money towards extending the time I can sail instead! My very poorly laid out Coronado 25 felt spacious as it was, so something even a few feet longer with good sailing abilities and a decent interior layout would probably be palatial enough to keep me happy and sailing for a very long time. 

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Consider also a C&C27, they sail properly, are roomy below, can often be found with a diesel inboard, plus they were built well - tough little boat.

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You're off base about the performance of the Mary Lightfoot.

The fact that a respected designer drew it for himself should tell you something.

I'd be pretty certain it would leave Flickas and any of those small PS boats well aft.

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28 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

You're off base about the performance of the Mary Lightfoot.

The fact that a respected designer drew it for himself should tell you something.

I'd be pretty certain it would leave Flickas and any of those small PS boats well aft.

Fair enough, I certainly don't have anything concrete to base my opinion on, just a gut feeling looking at it. Reminds me below the waterline with that wide beamy stern and smallish rudder of a Northstar 500 I sailed on, just with a full keel instead of a fin. That northstar was a bit of a pig. 

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Stan Huntingford designed our first boat, the Fortune 30. Very similar to the Mary Lightfoot pictured. It was much faster than a loaded Flicka. 

However that's not saying much. It was a 5 knot boat. Roomy but slow. Probably why the next serious boat was a fast 40' cat...

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

Stan Huntingford designed our first boat, the Fortune 30. Very similar to the Mary Lightfoot pictured. It was much faster than a loaded Flicka. 

However that's not saying much. It was a 5 knot boat. Roomy but slow. Probably why the next serious boat was a fast 40' cat...

Y'know, while I would love to have a fast 40' cat, I think one of those is a littttttle over the budget. Should probably take @SloopJonB at his word. Roomy, seaworthy, and 5 knots.... that's not at all the worst thing in the world. It also has dingjy davits, making the need for a special dinghy a moot point!

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14 hours ago, Alex W said:

I should add that the Tartan 30 is almost the same design (both are S&S designs with sequential design numbers), but the Tartan has 1 foot wider beam and a more open interior layout.  Worth comparing too.  This also looks to be a third derivative design of the Yankee 30/Tartan 30: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/northern-29, but I've never seen one of the boats in person.

I usually see a a couple of Yankee 30s sold in the PNW per year.

The thing to check on them is for deck core rot along the hull/deck joint.  That is their achilles heel and one spot where they weren't well sealed.

 

34 minutes ago, Vaeredil said:

Y'know, while I would love to have a fast 40' cat, I think one of those is a littttttle over the budget. Should probably take @SloopJonB at his word. Roomy, seaworthy, and 5 knots.... that's not at all the worst thing in the world. It also has dingjy davits, making the need for a special dinghy a moot point!

Happily managed to store a nice Minto dinghy on the foredeck of our Tartan 30

 

2ED079AC-2918-45EA-AEDD-B10160A5147D.jpeg

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21 hours ago, Zonker said:

They're not quite giving them away, but Yamaha 30's were well built and have high headroom in the main cabin.

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/nvn/bod/d/west-vancouver-yamaha-30-price-reduced/7104574268.html

21K ASKING

Nice boat, well executed.

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9 hours ago, Vaeredil said:

Fair enough, I certainly don't have anything concrete to base my opinion on, just a gut feeling looking at it. Reminds me below the waterline with that wide beamy stern and smallish rudder of a Northstar 500 I sailed on, just with a full keel instead of a fin. That northstar was a bit of a pig. 

Not to be rude but if you regard that little North Star 1/4 Tonner as a bit of a pig I'd suggest you review your expectations, your sails or your sailing.

It has a PHRF in the 220's - same range as a San Juan 24 and other 1/4 Pounders of the era. They were the best performing small "offshore" boats of that era.

S&S were far and away the top design firm in the world at the time - they didn't design pigs

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8 hours ago, Zonker said:

Stan Huntingford designed our first boat, the Fortune 30. Very similar to the Mary Lightfoot pictured. It was much faster than a loaded Flicka. 

However that's not saying much. It was a 5 knot boat. Roomy but slow. Probably why the next serious boat was a fast 40' cat...

I had a Fortune a few years ago. I sold it primarily because of the hydraulic steering making it so clumsy in close quarters but I felt the rig was way undersized for around here as well - if I had my druthers I'd have had 6' more mast.

That said, I loved everything else about the boat - super comfortable cockpit and the best motion of any boat I've sailed.

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We changed the yankee to a big genoa. Made a big difference. I didn't mind the hydraulic steering. The boat did what it wanted in reverse anyway!

Ha - at sea it was comfortable but in an anchorage with any swell it had zero roll damping. It rolled it's guts out. We quickly built a flopper stopper. Since you don't see much of that in BC you wouldn't have noticed.

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Dinghy for a Flicka 20? I would think an inflatable SUP.  (I know, I know, late to the party...and I am NOT going to read the whole thread, so there!)

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On 5/29/2020 at 10:46 AM, SloopJonB said:

Not to be rude but if you regard that little North Star 1/4 Tonner as a bit of a pig I'd suggest you review your expectations, your sails or your sailing.

It has a PHRF in the 220's - same range as a San Juan 24 and other 1/4 Pounders of the era. They were the best performing small "offshore" boats of that era.

S&S were far and away the top design firm in the world at the time - they didn't design pigs

Quite probably expectations. I think I was trimming the jib and messing with the spinnaker the one time I helped sail her, but that was the only boat in the fleet my Lazy E could catch during our weekly club races here on Lake Wabigoon, Ontario. The rest of the fleet is a C&C 25, a tanzer 22, a j 22, j27, and a few others I don't know or can't remember, but some of those at least are built for a much different purchase. I believe the northstar is currently for sale, in good condition here in my hometown for $8000 Canadian. 

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On 5/28/2020 at 6:16 AM, Vaeredil said:

So, say you're on a budget and want to go "small, simple, and now". You get something like a Flicka 20,  for example, and head off down the coast to Mexico. What do you use as a dinghy?

 

Is there even room on the fore deck for a hard dinghy? If you make a cover can you tow one (always the downwind problem, one of my boats had a nice nick on the starboard side from a near miss, hard dinghy surfing down a wave)

Do you put up with stowage for an inflatable/RIB?

 

Perhaps a kayak? (Used a 14 foot as a dinghy before and the load carrying ability was not there, plus getting into it from the cockpit required balance I might not have in a few years)

 

SUP?

 

 

Inflatable stand up paddle board.

It is warm there!

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37 minutes ago, lydia said:

Inflatable stand up paddle board.

It is warm there!

Warm? I mean it's no eastern Greenland but BC, especially north of the island in winter isn't too tropical in my experience! 

 

Inflatable SUPs have been mentioned a few times though, seems like an interesting option. Anyone have a specific model to reccomend? Can they actually carry 50lbs of water, for example?

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On 5/29/2020 at 8:36 AM, mookiesurfs said:

Nice boat, well executed.

the smaller yamaha 25 is also a pretty nice boat

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On 5/29/2020 at 6:55 AM, Panoramix said:

You need to find one of those :

3bc14c83-7b7b-4df1-b920-b378b599677a.JPG

Bought one like that and sold it weeks after.  Wouldn't take a 3.3 Merc unless pumped rock hard and about to explode.

Sold it to a guy who was going to power it with an electric motor.  Get a hard transom.

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Same old story, everyone recommends getting a bigger boat than the one you either have, or are looking at.

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On 5/31/2020 at 11:00 AM, astro said:

Bought one like that and sold it weeks after.  Wouldn't take a 3.3 Merc unless pumped rock hard and about to explode.

Sold it to a guy who was going to power it with an electric motor.  Get a hard transom.

That's about twice the power of the small British Seagull people were using on these! I imagine the OP will not bother with a motor as these take space on board and not really needed on a small boat.

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2 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

That's about twice the power of the small British Seagull people were using on these! I imagine the OP will not bother with a motor as these take space on board and not really needed on a small boat.

They are still a shit design. 

They drag their arse even when rowed.  Too much wetted area.  A hard transom rows nicely

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2 minutes ago, astro said:

They are still a shit design. 

They drag their arse even when rowed.  Too much wetted area.  A hard transom rows nicely

A hard transom takes space when you fold the dinghy! I've used hard transom one (see pic further up) and I would definitely not call them "good rowing boats". But both are good enough to bring you ashore so if you don't carry an engine you might as well not bother with the hard transom...

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Just now, Panoramix said:

A hard transom takes space when you fold the dinghy! I've used hard transom one (see pic further up) and I would definitely not call them "good rowing boats". But both are good enough to bring you ashore so if you don't carry an engine you might as well not bother with the hard transom...

Bullshit.  The hard transom makes a nice spine for the fold.  I didn't say they were 'good' rowing boats, but hard transoms rows well compared to the 'kiddies pool' versions.  They are truly fucked.  I paid for one and it was totally and utterly fucking useless.

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1 hour ago, astro said:

Bullshit.  The hard transom makes a nice spine for the fold.  I didn't say they were 'good' rowing boats, but hard transoms rows well compared to the 'kiddies pool' versions.  They are truly fucked.  I paid for one and it was totally and utterly fucking useless.

The Avon has plenty of weaknesses but it is definitely not a kiddie pool dinghy.

 

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1 hour ago, astro said:

Bullshit.  The hard transom makes a nice spine for the fold.  I didn't say they were 'good' rowing boats, but hard transoms rows well compared to the 'kiddies pool' versions.  They are truly fucked.  I paid for one and it was totally and utterly fucking useless.

See my earlier post. WORST....BOAT........EVER

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On 5/31/2020 at 5:04 AM, astro said:

Same old story, everyone recommends getting a bigger boat than the one you either have, or are looking at.

That's because in 2020 with boats of all sizes available for low prices, or probably even back slip rent, cramming yourself into the most expensive 20 foot boat you can find makes no sense at all.

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57 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

That's because in 2020 with boats of all sizes available for low prices, or probably even back slip rent, cramming yourself into the most expensive 20 foot boat you can find makes no sense at all.

The OP highlighted his concern was running costs: I appreciate that there are contributors for whom these don't vary significantly within the bounds described but surely he has a point-  the costs for everything go down rapidly as boat size decreases: less paint; fewer, lighter and shorter ropes; lighter ground tackle; cheaper standing rigging; smaller fittings... potentially a boat that can be beached or trailered instead of needing to be craned and cradled ashore; smaller sails made of lighter fabrics; possibly even a berth that's charged by the metre instead of at a fixed rate (or a more modest mooring).

 I'm thinking there's a law-of-diminishing-returns that kicks in as the curve levels off... but the budget to maintain a 35' boat is surely much different to the budget to maintain a 25' boat... even if the initial outlay isn't much different... maybe a twenty-footer is going too far? Maybe not: isn't that why the original post was put up, as the OP explored the compromises necessary in a twenty-footer that looked affordable?

 I have an Avon that works as a tender for my 32-footer. It's currently fine for what I need- short hops to and from moorings or anchorage., 2-3 people+dog. It's reasonably light, deflates to a small package. Works well enough with an electric outboard and was cheap. I don't really want to be hauling a proper rowing boat or a small rib around with me but maybe the use the OP proposes needs that? If so, it'd be worth explaining so, as understanding that he needs a bigger boat to carry a proper tender in order to access the sorts of places he has in mind will have more value that just dissing an Avon that's adequate for some use-cases.

Cheers,

                W.

Edited by WGWarburton
Punctuation
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19 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

The OP highlighted his concern was running costs: I appreciate that there are contributors for whom these don't vary significantly within the bounds described but surely he has a point-  the costs for everything go down rapidly as boat size decreases: less paint; fewer, lighter and shorter ropes; lighter ground tackle; cheaper standing rigging; smaller fittings... potentially a boat that can be beached or trailered instead of needing to be craned and cradled ashore; smaller sails made of lighter fabrics; possibly even a berth that's charged by the metre instead of at a fixed rate (or a more modest mooring).

 I'm thinking there's a law-of-diminishing-returns that kicks in as the curve levels off... but the budget to maintain a 35' boat is surely much different to the budget to maintain a 25' boat... even if the initial outlay isn't much different... maybe a twenty-footer is going too far? Maybe not: isn't that why the original post was put up, as the OP explored the compromises necessary in a twenty-footer that looked affordable?

 I have an Avon that works as a tender for my 32-footer. It's currently fine for what I need- short hops to and from moorings or anchorage., 2-3 people+dog. It's reasonably light, deflates to a small package. Works well enough with an electric outboard and was cheap. I don't really want to be hauling a proper rowing boat or a small rib around with me but maybe the use the OP proposes needs that? If so, it'd be worth explaining so, as understanding that he needs a bigger boat to carry a proper tender in order to access the sorts of places he has in mind will have more value that just dissing an Avon that's adequate for some use-cases.

Cheers,

                W.

I have a 35 foot boat, so I am pretty familiar with the running costs :o

Remember this boat is for voyaging and a home, not just sunset sails. The jump in storage and speed is quite significant even going to 25 feet and the running cost difference would be lost in the noise.  The only times I wish my boat were smaller:

1. Paying for a transient slip.

2. Underneath the boat sanding or scraping.

 

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56 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

The OP highlighted his concern was running costs: I appreciate that there are contributors for whom these don't vary significantly within the bounds described but surely he has a point-  the costs for everything go down rapidly as boat size decreases: less paint; fewer, lighter and shorter ropes; lighter ground tackle; cheaper standing rigging; smaller fittings... potentially a boat that can be beached or trailered instead of needing to be craned and cradled ashore; smaller sails made of lighter fabrics; possibly even a berth that's charged by the metre instead of at a fixed rate (or a more modest mooring).

 I'm thinking there's a law-of-diminishing-returns that kicks in as the curve levels off... but the budget to maintain a 35' boat is surely much different to the budget to maintain a 25' boat... even if the initial outlay isn't much different... maybe a twenty-footer is going too far? Maybe not: isn't that why the original post was put up, as the OP explored the compromises necessary in a twenty-footer that looked affordable?

 I have an Avon that works as a tender for my 32-footer. It's currently fine for what I need- short hops to and from moorings or anchorage., 2-3 people+dog. It's reasonably light, deflates to a small package. Works well enough with an electric outboard and was cheap. I don't really want to be hauling a proper rowing boat or a small rib around with me but maybe the use the OP proposes needs that? If so, it'd be worth explaining so, as understanding that he needs a bigger boat to carry a proper tender in order to access the sorts of places he has in mind will have more value that just dissing an Avon that's adequate for some use-cases.

Cheers,

                W.

If you plan to actually cover distance I think the normal smaller is cheaper may reverse itself starting somewhere around 30 feet. The effort to sort out a dingy is just one example of how things get harder as you get too small. If you are cruising by yourself and know how to keep your payload light then you can go small...I’ve heard you can get by with a Moore 24...

If you are two people or plan to have guests then the payload adds up. So an overloaded small boat may cost less for somethings...maybe like sails...but if you take 50%+ longer at sea then your sails, running and standing rigging wear out much faster. So in a minimum sized boat cost per item and cost per month may be lower but cost per mile might be equivalent to a faster and more comfortable boat.

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

See my earlier post. WORST....BOAT........EVER

I've seen some in use for years... So that was probably bad luck for yours!

3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

That's because in 2020 with boats of all sizes available for low prices, or probably even back slip rent, cramming yourself into the most expensive 20 foot boat you can find makes no sense at all.

Small boats are cheap and easy to maintain, extremely easy to handle, forgive many mistakes, it suits some people. There was this 69 years old German lady who came to Brittany and bought a Muscadet to sail to Tahiti. She made it (the blue boat)...

9844343-15917563.jpg?v=1468452502

I am not sure if it is hers but by the way this is the kind of dinghies people use on small boats, no need for a big RIB when you draw 4 feet!!!!

Some Muscadet owners were a bit annoyed as they try to keep as many boats as possible locally. May be the boat is for sale over there, buy it for cheap there (plywood boat, it is crap) sail it back and sell it for good money in Brittany. Probably not the most profitable enterprise but you will have fun!

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If you want the most speed and space for the least maintenance the only big solution is a multihull. But for some that is simply not going to happen and they have their downsides too. When you remove 40% of the displacement, it tends to make all those parts lighter and less expensive...

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