JimBowie

What's Wrong with the CONfedrate FlAG?

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1 minute ago, frenchie said:

"nearly 3 decades ago, is the same as 2 years ago"

hurr, durr.

Racism was cool 3 decades ago?  Were you a racist 3 decades ago?

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11 minutes ago, jzk said:

Racism was cool 3 decades ago?  Were you a racist 3 decades ago?

Possibly. But intelligent people self reflect and change. 

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6 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Possibly. But intelligent people self reflect and change. 

Its not impossible that Biden gave up his racist, pro-segregation ways.  But then he came out again with his "you aint black" statement.  

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10 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Possibly. But intelligent people self reflect and change. 

Which is why Gone with the Wind has been removed from streaming services FFS.

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8 minutes ago, FinnFish said:
19 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Possibly. But intelligent people self reflect and change. 

Which is why Gone with the Wind has been removed from streaming services FFS.

Yes indeed. Largely because people who have a problem with observing facts, reflecting and possibly changing, seem to think it's a documentary.

And it does have an offensive portrayal of black people. Or is that the part you liked most?

- DSK

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3 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Yes indeed. Largely because people who have a problem with observing facts, reflecting and possibly changing, seem to think it's a documentary.

And it does have an offensive portrayal of black people. Or is that the part you liked most?

- DSK

No. But could we at least be consistent and apply the same reasoning across the board?

Lets start by removing all scenes in all movies/films that are offensive to (insert name of group here).

Where should we start, more importantly where should we stop?

Lets remove all John Wayne movies where First Nations people were represented as blood thirsty murders of the white settler.

Or are those the parts you like the most?

images-w1400.jpg?1433871971 

Next lets remove all movies relating to Vietnam that refer to the native population as 'gooks' or 'charlie', representing them as killers of middle class Mericans.

Or are those the parts you like the most?

Most pressing would be to remove the line in Full Metal Jacket 'We'll let the gooks play the Indians'.

full-metal-jacket-1504641466.jpg?crop=1x

 

 

 

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The world is not black and white.  The Irish took longer to assimilate into the USA.  The Italians didn't have an easy time.  The eastern Europeans?

The indignity of slavery.  

It is not just reforming the police.  It is reforming all society.

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31 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

No. But could we at least be consistent and apply the same reasoning across the board?

Lets start by removing all scenes in all movies/films that are offensive to (insert name of group here).

Where should we start, more importantly where should we stop?

Lets remove all John Wayne movies where First Nations people were represented as blood thirsty murders of the white settler.

Or are those the parts you like the most?

images-w1400.jpg?1433871971 

Next lets remove all movies relating to Vietnam that refer to the native population as 'gooks' or 'charlie', representing them as killers of middle class Mericans.

Or are those the parts you like the most?

Most pressing would be to remove the line in Full Metal Jacket 'We'll let the gooks play the Indians'.

full-metal-jacket-1504641466.jpg?crop=1x

 

 

 

John Wayne movies should be next.

At the very least, they are crimes against humanity.....

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1 minute ago, Ease the sheet. said:

John Wayne movies should be next.

At the very least, they are crimes against humanity.....

Anything with the word 'Idol' or 'Reality' in the title.

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10 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

John Wayne movies should be next.

At the very least, they are crimes against humanity.....

Well except for True Grit.

The self parody in that one redeems it.

"By God she reminds me of me" :D

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They named an airport after John Wayne down in Santa Ana in Orange County. Seriously, what the fuck for? Or rather they renamed it in 1979. The IATA airport code is still SNA.

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Jeebus, hard to believe the lack of knowledge here - among both left and right. 

This was the official flag of the Confederate States of America 

images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcS0w-Pw9mfDCwKzoCiAKKIrg7DYvxBuGtCYdo6ARjahwrytXLZqUx3l3T82fXNH37M75QlyTOLelA&usqp=CAc

Below was (is?) the BATTLE FLAG of the CSA - there is a difference 

The battle flag is more of an insult to what our country strives for . . . 

 

Modern display of the Confederate battle flag - Wikipedia

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1 hour ago, FinnFish said:

No. But could we at least be consistent and apply the same reasoning across the board?

Lets start by removing all scenes in all movies/films that are offensive to (insert name of group here).

Where should we start, more importantly where should we stop?

Those movies are stories. Different than a monument. Each story tells its own story, for better or worse. That is, the facts of the story are in the story. The movie and message can be evaluated by simply viewing it. The monuments in question represent a static permanent lie. A monument to a wealthy southerner would tell an honest story if it somehow depicted brutality towards fellow humans, treason against the Union and whatever other depravities those monsters had. So maybe they could be modified with burning flags and prostrate slaves

Also the books and movies are not endorsed by the government. 

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5 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

 

The monuments in question represent a static permanent lie.

Agree. Perhaps next to American War Monuments we have also have Monuments of the following?

 

image.jpg

 

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9 hours ago, mikewof said:

 

But perhaps the single most offensive thing to any Southerner is that they need to be "protected" somehow by scourge of racism.     By, or from?

This is THEIR issue. If a Southerner chooses to fly that flag, it's up to them to define their obligations and concerns. It's remarkably silly when a bunch of Northerners, Westerners, Easterners, and even Canadian and Australians start to decide what a Southerner should or shouldn't do with their life. Southern Black and Whites communicate with each other more clearly and plainly than anywhere in the country in my opinion. I've seen it at a communal crawfish boil table. There is no separation of cultures down there. They can decide for themselves what their symbology represents.

We ask for patience and tolerance and make an earnest request that we be allowed to handle state and local affairs without outside interference.   George Wallace 1958

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/1009885.pdf

The lies the child of a slave owner told himself in 1901, for reference.   This was about the time the statues were being erected.

. It would be a cruelty greater than slavery to leave this helpless race, this child race, to work out its own salvation in fierce and hostile competition with the strongest and best developed race on the globe. The Negro can expect no peculiar development.
He must aim at white civilization; and must reach it through the support, guidance and control of the white people among whom he lives. He must regain the active friendship and affection of the Southern whites. He will do so if let alone by the North

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11 hours ago, Lark said:

My memories of the Dukes was rebellion against a corrupt system.   Both good guys and the boss were as white as Daisy's legs.   The honest but harsh sheriff of the next county was black and black guests were portrayed well enough.   That show may have affected the view of the treason flag during Mike's youth.  It did mine in Missouri.  

I don't think the white trash today fly the flag in honor of an orange charger outrunning the crooked law.   Its use is mostly limited to poor white trash flying it from rusted out trucks or in front of houses desperate for paint.   They become much more blatant in their white power philosophy after their orange champion took the white house back and had it fumigated.  It seems the tide has shifted this month.   Decent people are not willing to accept a return to the 1920s.    The racists imagine most people share their views but are trapped by political correctness and won't admit it.   Now they desperately try to frame the protests as race riots to fit their imagination.   Some idiots made that possible.

I currently live in smallish town Ohio, close enough to Kentucky to have some taint.   These towns were functionally segregated a few generations ago, presumably by the banks.  The economics have declined, helping  small geography compress the historic difference.   As a result, younger generations often are in mixed racial groups and the children seem more often of mixed race then in cities where kids are segregated by economics with racial results.   Where hormones rule I have hope for the future.   

Most towns are racially segregated.   
 

ive read a lot of posts here that are basically bla bla bla bla.  No ideas for fixing things.  Just regurgitation of talking points.   Same stuff posted for years.   Might make people feel good but it is the equivalent of doing nothing.
 

 

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1 hour ago, FinnFish said:

Anything with the word 'Idol' or 'Reality' in the title.

Or "Rocky".

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48 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Jeebus, hard to believe the lack of knowledge here - among both left and right. 

This was the official flag of the Confederate States of America 

images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcS0w-Pw9mfDCwKzoCiAKKIrg7DYvxBuGtCYdo6ARjahwrytXLZqUx3l3T82fXNH37M75QlyTOLelA&usqp=CAc

Below was (is?) the BATTLE FLAG of the CSA - there is a difference 

The battle flag is more of an insult to what our country strives for . . . 

 

Modern display of the Confederate battle flag - Wikipedia

We are still fighting.

The battle flag indeed.

It was never about the rights of states.  You can read the rhetoric of the politicians at the time.

If we don't focus on the singular issue of our times, then we deserve to be a failed country.  It is not what I wish and I will drag people (metaphorically) into the world kicking and screaming.

Let the protests continue until there is an overwhelming change in our racist society.

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Movies are like books. People choose to watch. Stupid taking some content out, censoring Fawlty Towers now..:rolleyes:

FFS..I simply don't get why people can't see the difference between things people can choose to see or read and things people are forced to be confronted by...Unless the elk think it's reasonable for people to walk or drive extra miles to avoid flags and statues officially erected in public places.

It's really not that hard.

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9 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Movies are like books. People choose to watch. Stupid taking some content out, censoring Fawlty Towers now..:rolleyes:

FFS..I simply don't get why people can't see the difference between things people can choose to see or read and things people are forced to be confronted by...Unless the elk think it's reasonable for people to walk or drive extra miles to avoid flags and statues officially erected in public places.

It's really not that hard.

I have chosen to be with those who don't have.  I have an opinion about what people want to put in private places, but it is not my concern.

When you put racist ideology in my face it is wrong.  

When the worker's wages stagnant and the blame is falsely blamed on the "other" man...

I do believe protest is the way to go.  Heed the protest and have a peaceful revolution.

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13 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

It's really not that hard.

You assume a fundamental level of intelligence that they have failed to achieve.

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14 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Did a bit of research (USA Today) and it turns out that three of these bases were created in World War I and six in World War II so not closely tied to the Civil War. Fort Lee is the exception to the rule. It was a Confederate army base that became a US base after the Civil War. I suspect these names were chosen to encourage southern boys to enlist in both wars. Note that all are in the South. In all likelihood naming one of these bases Fort Grant would not have increased patriotic fervour and enlistment.

I think you're right. 

Both Lincoln and Grant (and officers further down the ranks like Sherman and Chamberlain) were far more interested in 'ending the war' than they were punishing the South.    I'd bet that if you asked them at the time, none would have realized the degree of 'revisionism' that was going to occur.  They knew what the fight was about.  EVERYONE knew what the war  was about.  The war itself was the finale to decades of preamble and negotiated stalemates that punted the issue of slavery.

The terms that ended the war were hand written by Grant, at the behest of Lincoln.  "Put down your guns.  Promise not to fight anymore.  The officers can keep their stuff and their side arms.  Go home."  That's it.  Its a paragraph long.  I think that's why a lot of these monuments and statues were erected 60+ years later.  The people with direct experience were mostly dead and the myths that had been seeded to make people 'feel better' and 'save face' were supplanting reality.  Secessionist became rebels - kinda like the founding fathers, right?  A 'States Right to have Slaves' became "States Right of Self Determination". Rebranding made easy.

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22 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

I think you're right. 

Both Lincoln and Grant (and officers further down the ranks like Sherman and Chamberlain) were far more interested in 'ending the war' than they were punishing the South.    I'd bet that if you asked them at the time, none would have realized the degree of 'revisionism' that was going to occur.  They knew what the fight was about.  EVERYONE knew what the war  was about.  The war itself was the finale to decades of preamble and negotiated stalemates that punted the issue of slavery.

The terms that ended the war were hand written by Grant, at the behest of Lincoln.  "Put down your guns.  Promise not to fight anymore.  The officers can keep their stuff and their side arms.  Go home."  That's it.  Its a paragraph long.  I think that's why a lot of these monuments and statues were erected 60+ years later.  The people with direct experience were mostly dead and the myths that had been seeded to make people 'feel better' and 'save face' were supplanting reality.  Secessionist became rebels - kinda like the founding fathers, right?  A 'States Right to have Slaves' became "States Right of Self Determination". Rebranding made easy.

Agreed. Look at how many of the monuments came from the Daughters of the Confederacy. They spread them around the south like herpes that never goes away. The one at the entrance to our courthouse is a nice piece of artwork...that has no business in front of the building where folks go for equal justice. 

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9 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Jeebus, hard to believe the lack of knowledge here - among both left and right. 

This was the official flag of the Confederate States of America 

images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcS0w-Pw9mfDCwKzoCiAKKIrg7DYvxBuGtCYdo6ARjahwrytXLZqUx3l3T82fXNH37M75QlyTOLelA&usqp=CAc

Below was (is?) the BATTLE FLAG of the CSA - there is a difference 

The battle flag is more of an insult to what our country strives for . . . 

 

Modern display of the Confederate battle flag - Wikipedia

Yes and no. The Confederacy was very disorganized, and what attempts at organization were made were most often resisted. When you glorify being a rebel, you get a lot of stubbornly insubordinate running in circles instead of coordination and cooperation. This was made worse by Jefferson Davis' personality (and you can judge what sort of private man he was, by the behavior of his wife).

There was never really an agreed-on national flag for the Confederacy. The closest thing to it would be either the stars'n bars above or the "stainless banner" which was all white with a red vertical bar.

What's usually suggested as the "Confederate Flag" is an approximation of the Confederate naval ensign.

The square St James Cross with stars, above, was the CSA infantry guidon, used by the Army of Virginia and many other units but far from universal. I think it caught on as the "Confederate flag" because it is just enough different, while incorporating other common elements of national flags, to look official. But the real deal is not proportioned like a national flag, so it's usually stretched a bit horizontally.

This is one reason why I call it the dumbass flag. The people who fly it don't even know what the fuck flag it is.

- DSK

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5 hours ago, cmilliken said:

The terms that ended the war were hand written by Grant, at the behest of Lincoln.  "Put down your guns.  Promise not to fight anymore.  The officers can keep their stuff and their side arms.  Go home."  That's it.  Its a paragraph long.  I think that's why a lot of these monuments and statues were erected 60+ years later.  The people with direct experience were mostly dead and the myths that had been seeded to make people 'feel better' and 'save face' were supplanting reality.  Secessionist became rebels - kinda like the founding fathers, right?  A 'States Right to have Slaves' became "States Right of Self Determination". Rebranding made easy.

Those were not the terms that ended the war, those were the terms of surrender for the Army of Northern Virginia.  The Civil War didn’t officially end until 1866.

The narrative that it ended at Appomattox is the rebranding.

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10 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

You assume a fundamental level of intelligence that they have failed to achieve.

A Canadian telling an Australian that she's much smarter than a bunch of Northerners who generally haven't considered the input of a bunch of Southerners. Yeah, you two really have your finger on the pulse of a nation.

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11 hours ago, hasher said:

We are still fighting.

The battle flag indeed.

It was never about the rights of states.  You can read the rhetoric of the politicians at the time.

If we don't focus on the singular issue of our times, then we deserve to be a failed country.  It is not what I wish and I will drag people (metaphorically) into the world kicking and screaming.

Let the protests continue until there is an overwhelming change in our racist society.

That's the point, we need to change things, right?

But to change things, we have to change the problems that we've made, the problems that involve us.

How many admitted "racists" are there in the USA? Maybe a few million at most? And yet, we convince ourselves that our problems of social injustice are a result of this thiny handful of miscreants who are somehow able to overwhelm us 300,000,000 some "inclusive" Americans? Numerically, it's ridiculous.

The reality of course is that most of us who tell ourselves that we don't have a racist bone in our bodies are in fact the ones who actually kinda like our property to be protected by our police employees. We're the ones who build and support economic structures that lock Americans into ghettos for generations. Our "enlightened" choices are indirectly responsible for usury check cashing joints and the still segregated neighborhoods.

But to confront these problems means that we need to confront our own contribution to this situation. It means admitting that we may be well-meaning, but we have in fact supported this status quo through the compliance that we generate to keep our privileges and our stuff.

So what's easier? To manage these racists inside of us all, to pull them daily "like bindweed" as Orwell wrote, or to sing loudly with our fingers in our ears and just blame our problems on a flag?

That flag means next to nothing. It's the symbol of a lost war, and far more racism, murder, genocide, hatred and terror has been accomplished under the flag of our own nation (and under the flags of Canada and Australia) than under the Rebel battle flag. It's an historical curiosity at best, it means something to some people in the deep South, and somehow, through a feat of majestic denial, we've managed to claim that this flag is one of the fountainheads of American racism?

photos.medleyphoto.7821941.JPG

photos.medleyphoto.7821940.JPG

https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/photos-they-black-and-they-proud-the-confederate-flag/by06A6ywMrqi7mYP9A1jmO/

 

The battle flag represents what people want it to represent.

 

Some people want it to represent the racism of others so we can avoid facing our own racism. And others want it to represent something which gives them a feeling of pride, or maybe of hope that at some point inthefuture.com, sufficient time will have elapsed that there is no longer an attempt by the descendants of the victors to control the opinions of the conquered. That's the nature of being a "rebel." And some of most dangerous racists in our country today aren't ordinary southerners, but rather the "color blind" children of wealth who unwittingly support the status quo that has Americans murdered in the streets, in their beds, or simply have their futures murdered in a ghetto outside of some major metropolis somewhere.

Those who have convinced themselves that their wealth isn't in fact the spearhead of racism, those are the people who perpetuate this American Social Injustice.

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19 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Why people think that it is valuable to have a "conversation" or "discussion" about the confederate flag is beyond me. 

What exactly is there to discuss about losing a fight to have the right to own other human beings and profit from their slave labor?   Are we supposed to regret the loss of those remarkable (i.e. murderous) ante-bellum days?

"What is there to discuss? The "conversation" or "discussion" should be why we abhor the social injustics that that occurred under this flag a long time ago ...

Postcard_Conferate_FLag_2550x.jpg?v=1580

 

While simultaneously ignoring the social injustice that occurs under this flag to this very day ...Flag_of_the_United_States.svg

 

The first flag is a convenient scapegoat that can make us all feel better about ourselves when we outlaw it. But the social injustice from the second flag isn't going away, it's getting worse. And voting Trump out of office isn't going to significantly change these underlying problems of institutional racism that destroy American lives to this day. But as long as the American lives that this second flag destroys aren't the American lives of the people with comfortable middle class lives, then these underlying problems will go happily unaddressed.

We'll just blame our problems on a flag.

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11 minutes ago, mikewof said:

"What is there to discuss? The "conversation" or "discussion" should be why we abhor the social injustics that that occurred under this flag a long time ago ...

Postcard_Conferate_FLag_2550x.jpg?v=1580

 

While simultaneously ignoring the social injustice that occurs under this flag to this very day ...Flag_of_the_United_States.svg

 

The first flag is a convenient scapegoat that can make us all feel better about ourselves when we outlaw it. But the social injustice from the second flag isn't going away, it's getting worse. And voting Trump out of office isn't going to significantly change these underlying problems of institutional racism that destroy American lives to this day. But as long as the American lives that this second flag destroys aren't the American lives of the people with comfortable middle class lives, then these underlying problems will go happily unaddressed.

We'll just blame our problems on a flag.

Actually a great post, thanks Mike

You should write a country song with this

- DSK

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Yes and no.

This is one reason why I call it the dumbass flag. The people who fly it don't even know what the fuck flag it is.

Thanks for the elaboration/correction . .  

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On 6/11/2020 at 11:21 PM, view at the front said:

Part of the problem of what with is happening in the USofA now, is that no-one is talking about the real issues.  

I'm not saying that we fly the Confederate or Nazi Swastika flags.  We just need to talk about what is wrong about it.  What don't you get?

I'm also opposed to banning Mark Twain's "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" because they use the word nigger.  Use the word, and talk about what is wrong with it. Learn from it.

 

 

"I'm also opposed to banning Mark Twain's "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" because they use the word nigger.  Use the word, and talk about what is wrong with it. Learn from it."

Yes, Otherwise we are just burning books.  Never was a good idea....  

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On 6/11/2020 at 11:54 PM, view at the front said:

My wife has relatives in Alabama that use the term "niggerish" to describe behavior that they don't approve of.  We don't talk politics with them.

She also has relatives in Germany, and her uncle was in Hitler's Youth at the end on WW2.  His kids still argue around the table with him about how could you have let that happen?   

It makes me drink an excess amount of schnapps with them when I'm there.

Seriously??  They talk like that??  WTF??  My dad did same thing, Hitler youth was basically mandatory.  He was maybe a bit younger, but he came over when he was 18, bunch of years after the war.  Never has it ever crossed my mind, or those in my extended family, that he had any choice in the matter....  Shows a level of ignorance that is truly mind-boggling.....  

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2 hours ago, mikewof said:

"What is there to discuss? The "conversation" or "discussion" should be why we abhor the social injustics that that occurred under this flag a long time ago ...

Postcard_Conferate_FLag_2550x.jpg?v=1580

 

While simultaneously ignoring the social injustice that occurs under this flag to this very day ...Flag_of_the_United_States.svg

 

The first flag is a convenient scapegoat that can make us all feel better about ourselves when we outlaw it. But the social injustice from the second flag isn't going away, it's getting worse. And voting Trump out of office isn't going to significantly change these underlying problems of institutional racism that destroy American lives to this day. But as long as the American lives that this second flag destroys aren't the American lives of the people with comfortable middle class lives, then these underlying problems will go happily unaddressed.

We'll just blame our problems on a flag.

Actually, what you are proposing is not a "conversation" or a "discussion" it is simply a necessary declaration: We abhor what the Confederate battle flag stands for - racism and treason, underlaid with the intrinsic support of slavery.

Voting tRump out of office will indeed significantly change the underlying problems of racism in America by making a clear declaration that those who espouse racism and those who enable it have had their day, they have attempted (and in many ways succeeded) in making it worse, and now are again on the losing side of history.

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Hate to point it out to you all but swapping one old white guy, for another old white guy, both from the same generation, does little to change the underlying racism in America. 

America needs to dig much deeper.

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15 minutes ago, Keith said:

Hate to point it out to you all but swapping one old white guy, for another old white guy, both from the same generation, does little to change the underlying racism in America. 

America needs to dig much deeper.

Well, swapping out an old boomer white guy, W, for a young X black guy didn't solve racism either. Don't get me wrong, the Kenyan was in every way a much better President and a much better man than the silver spooned white guy. But for some reason, right wing idiots didn't start singing Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead  on January 20, 2009. In fact, if you listened closely, they started singing The South's Gonna Rise Agin.

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How is it, a 30 year old skit from John Cleese continues to be so relevant today.

 

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4 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Actually, what you are proposing is not a "conversation" or a "discussion" it is simply a necessary declaration: We abhor what the Confederate battle flag stands for - racism and treason, underlaid with the intrinsic support of slavery.

Voting tRump out of office will indeed significantly change the underlying problems of racism in America by making a clear declaration that those who espouse racism and those who enable it have had their day, they have attempted (and in many ways succeeded) in making it worse, and now are again on the losing side of history.

There is no more Confederate system, it's buried in the ashes of defeat, and that Battle Flag doesn't mean what you wrote to all people.

On the other hand, the United States of America emerged victorious from that war, and since then -- to many people -- our Stars and Stripes stands for racism, treason, and a new kind of slavery enabled through our criminal justice system and the War on Drugs and the War on Immigration.

So, what if you walk a mile in another brave's moccasins? How would you feel about a "necessary declaration" which reads We abhor what the flag  of the United States stands for - racism and treason, underlaid with the intrinsic support of slavery.

Such a declaration would bother me very much. Because while it is true, my country's flag means something more to me, it stands for the efforts of Americans who fought against racism, communism, fascism, treason and slavery.

And my thoughts, my speech, my ideas and expressions are what the First Amendment protects.

If you want to let a stray Canadian and a lonely Australian convince you that our Bill of Rights doesn't exist, then you're opening yourself to some real dangers, because ten to one, Lefty, the next flag to be made illegal after the Battle Flag, once that door is opened to suspend civil liberties, the next flag to be banned will be this one ...

blacklivesmatter.png

When you support the rights of 1,000 Americans to display neo-Nazi flags, when you support the rights of 10,000 Americans to display Battle Flags, you also support the rights of 10,000,000 Americans to display Black Lives Matter flags.

A few decades ago, there were 10,000,000 Americans flying the flags of fascism and racism. And now those numbers are reversed. So we're winning, finally. Don't fuck it up with shit policy.

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4 hours ago, Keith said:

Hate to point it out to you all but swapping one old white guy, for another old white guy, both from the same generation, does little to change the underlying racism in America. 

America needs to dig much deeper.

 If all old white guys are the same to you...dig deeper. 

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13 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Agreed. Look at how many of the monuments came from the Daughters of the Confederacy. They spread them around the south like herpes that never goes away. The one at the entrance to our courthouse is a nice piece of artwork...that has no business in front of the building where folks go for equal justice. 

F7BF81F5-5D59-4E16-8ADC-D138C42AF2A0.jpeg

EAC581BC-E9AC-4B0C-806C-028ABDFBB127.jpeg

A0A6B6CA-0410-40D4-9C75-F421850BE53E.jpeg

E719EDB1-3D1D-4E00-970E-D9E273AA6F08.jpeg

Seems, occasionally, loosers get to write some history.......

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To be honest, the only thing wrong with that flag is that it's upside down, and backwards. Like most of the people who think that there's nothing wrong with flying it.

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On 6/13/2020 at 12:59 PM, Keith said:

Hate to point it out to you all but swapping one old white guy, for another old white guy, both from the same generation, does little to change the underlying racism in America. 

America needs to dig much deeper.

Yes, but we need to  focus on 1 thing right now.....  Getting the orange one out.  That's it.  

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On 6/12/2020 at 2:17 PM, SloopJonB said:

 

The south lost it's war of sedition - time they accepted it.

They lost the war over a hundred years ago, how should we best punish the current occupants of the formerly seditious states? We obviously need to keep punishing them, right?

Come to think of it, since you Canucks are weighing in on USA policy and thought, the Native Americans also lost their war against the United States, and they also used to keep slaves, what cultural artifacts should we take away from the Native Americans?

In fact, the Native Americans in Canada were able to make their own nation, if you want, maybe the USA can sell you some planes so you can go carpet bomb them. After all, those Inuits and Aleuts "lost the war", isn't it "time they accepted it"?

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On 6/12/2020 at 9:03 AM, d'ranger said:

Anything in particular stand out about this performance? (not counting the song or the musicians, epic rock there)

Hint: This is Oakland CA, not GA or Alabama or SC....

Aside from all the politics, what a beautiful performance, huh?

I showed this video to my born-in-Alabama son back when he was about 6 years old, he just got really quiet, taking all this beauty in; the music, the audience, the time. The video ended, he asked me the name of the band, then asks me "can we go there to see Lynrd Skynrd?"

If only that was possible, huh?

Then I showed him this one, he seemed to get as sad as I do when I see it, 

There is something about Southern culture that only Southerners will ever really understand. This battle flag business, it's their business, it has nothing to do with us. It's 2020 and The South struggles with the same types of problems as the rest of us, we shouldn't give them extra stress, they'll work out their question with the flags and the statues and the cops the same as us.

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^I must be doing something wrong, I put this twerp on ignore but I still see his shit.

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Just now, animeproblem said:

^I must be doing something wrong, I put this twerp on ignore but I still see his shit.

If you refresh the page with F5 instead of clicking "show new quotes" all the ignores stay hidden.

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9 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Aside from all the politics, what a beautiful performance, huh?

I showed this video to my born-in-Alabama son back when he was about 6 years old, he just got really quiet, taking all this beauty in; the music, the audience, the time. The video ended, he asked me the name of the band, then asks me "can we go there to see Lynrd Skynrd?"

If only that was possible, huh?

Then I showed him this one, he seemed to get as sad as I do when I see it, 

There is something about Southern culture that only Southerners will ever really understand. This battle flag business, it's their business, it has nothing to do with us. It's 2020 and The South struggles with the same types of problems as the rest of us, we shouldn't give them extra stress, they'll work out their question with the flags and the statues and the cops the same as us.

So here is the thing about southern culture and you obviously didn't snap that there was never a whiter group of people on the planet there - let's say you are a teacher on a field group and you come to a display of the confederate battle flag or a statue of RE Lee or any other general and a black child asks why is that being honored? Do you answer honestly, that it's a symbol of when the southern states fought for the right to own people like you? Because it's not "culture" it's a representation when Americans fought and died countless bloody battles to determine whether or not it was right and proper to own other humans if their skin was dark.  Since you aren't a southerner (though you claim to have lived every single place on the planet) you don't know what you are writing about - I grew up here, every thing was segregated, community, schools, churches, everything and I didn't know better until for many years.

All those symbols and statues represent the fight to own slaves, that is a piss poor culture and any effort to represent it differently is no acceptable in society.

Good Day.

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I apologize for quoting the clown, it's been a long day and too many "friends" have posted too much bullshit for me to deal with in any kind of civil manner.

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On 6/13/2020 at 11:59 AM, Keith said:

Hate to point it out to you all but swapping one old white guy, for another old white guy, both from the same generation, does little to change the underlying racism in America. 

America needs to dig much deeper.

Not true. 

Stalin and Roosevelt were two old white guys.  

Robert E. Lee and Abraham Lincoln were two old white guys. 

Pick one of the pairs above and discuss why "swapping them out" might make a difference in two short paragraphs.

 

On the brighter side, what would you give to have Jacinda Ardern in the White House?

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2 hours ago, d'ranger said:

So here is the thing about southern culture and you obviously didn't snap that there was never a whiter group of people on the planet there - let's say you are a teacher on a field group and you come to a display of the confederate battle flag or a statue of RE Lee or any other general and a black child asks why is that being honored? Do you answer honestly, that it's a symbol of when the southern states fought for the right to own people like you? Because it's not "culture" it's a representation when Americans fought and died countless bloody battles to determine whether or not it was right and proper to own other humans if their skin was dark.  Since you aren't a southerner (though you claim to have lived every single place on the planet) you don't know what you are writing about - I grew up here, every thing was segregated, community, schools, churches, everything and I didn't know better until for many years.

All those symbols and statues represent the fight to own slaves, that is a piss poor culture and any effort to represent it differently is no acceptable in society.

Good Day.

Okay, so let's take your opinion on this to the logical conclusion ...

George-Washington-Mount-Vernon-1853-631.

Why should we not abolish statues honoring George Washington, owner and driver and many slaves? Thomas Jefferson, owner of slaves, even raped one of his slaves and procreated with her. Harrison, enslaved his fellow Americans. Polk, enslaved his fellow Americans. Madison, Monroe, Jackson, Van Buren, they all enslaved their fellow Americans, in some cases beating them to within an inch of their lives.

So, D'Ranger, what do you tell the child who asks why we honor these Americans with statues and with paintings? Do you say something to effect of "well child, you see, Lee was on the losing side, so we don't want to remember anything about him, America hates losers. But Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, and the rest, they were on the side of victory, so we honor them even though they enslaved their fellow Americans because that's just how we do it in the United States of America."

If you lived in the South when things were segregated, then you are pretty old, you must have been a child there in the 1950s and the 1960s. (Curious, where did you live in the South?)  I lived in Alabama from about 2000 to 2010, and things were in many ways far less segregated than they were in New York State or New Jersey. Black and White ate at the same tables, some schools in poor neighborhoods were still segregated, but the Every Child Left Behind Act was changing that as fast as anyone could imagine, suddenly parents all over the city I lived in were pulling their children from the schools in the poor neighborhoods and putting them into the schools in the wealthy neighborhoods. When Roll Tide or War Eagle were in the mix, you couldn't find a more integrated place. I never saw such integration in NYC, anywhere, ever. People everywhere eating, drinking, partying and singing together. In fact, I found it to be pretty fucking wonderful, because I didn't even know such a thing was possible.

But okay, let's abolish the symbols and the statues that stood in part for hatred and intolerance. Fine. We'll bury history, we'll take our chances on being condemned to repeat that history, we'll throw the First Amendment to the wind. So following what you wrote up there, we need to abolish these things that honor hatred, right?

What do we do about this then, knock it down?

636437455963947318-1017-EVFE-history-les

In your view, don't memorials like this honor Americans who murdered, maimed and destroyed countless people? The flag of the United States of America was the symbol that was used to kill some two million (!!) Vietnamese innocents. Why should we honor these people? Shouldn't we bury these monuments under the ground the same way we bury these memorials that offend so many of us?

What's the difference?

 

What if you told that student "this is history child, it's from a time when Americans enslaved people just like you, it's from a time when Americans carpet bombed people just like you, it's from a time when Americans used Hellfire missiles fired from flying robots to incinerate people just like you. And we don't honor the memory, but we don't hide this dark chapter of our hatred either. Because those who forget history are condemned to repeat it."

This is 2020, I have children, I tell them the truth. Children are smart, I'm pretty sure that we don't need to hide the warts on our history and present this fake-ass picture of us as a benevolent race of godly humans. If a community wants to remove the Vietnam memorial, that's their right to do so, or remove the General Lee statue, it's their right. But descending onto the values of others like a pack of wolverines intent on standardization of thought, it seems a violent kind of Orwellian mistake to me. So good day to you too.

 

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2 hours ago, mikewof said:

Aside from all the politics, what a beautiful performance, huh?

I showed this video to my born-in-Alabama son back when he was about 6 years old, he just got really quiet, taking all this beauty in; the music, the audience, the time. The video ended, he asked me the name of the band, then asks me "can we go there to see Lynrd Skynrd?"

If only that was possible, huh?

Then I showed him this one, he seemed to get as sad as I do when I see it, 

There is something about Southern culture that only Southerners will ever really understand. This battle flag business, it's their business, it has nothing to do with us. It's 2020 and The South struggles with the same types of problems as the rest of us, we shouldn't give them extra stress, they'll work out their question with the flags and the statues and the cops the same as us.

As long as you think of them, and they think of themselves as “other” than American, it’s a problem.

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2 hours ago, animeproblem said:

^I must be doing something wrong, I put this twerp on ignore but I still see his shit.

The good thing about you, is that nobody has to put you on ignore, given that you almost never add anything the provokes thought or intelligence or values.

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3 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

As long as you think of them, and they think of themselves as “other” than American, it’s a problem.

This, from some guy who separates himself from his countrymen with his yacht, with his yacht clubs, with his wealth, with his access to the things that 80% of the country couldn't touch.

You embrace the "other" you just have convinced yourself that you don't.

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7 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

As long as you think of them, and they think of themselves as “other” than American, it’s a problem.

On SA we could add a fourth, mikewof

 

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9 minutes ago, mikewof said:

The good thing about you, is that nobody has to put you on ignore, given that you almost never add anything the provokes thought or intelligence or values.

Mike, we have established in the past that no one reads your long posts. 

Why do you keep doing it? 

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My first marriage lasted longer than the confederacy, and I've already taken down the monuments.

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43 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Mike, we have established in the past that no one reads your long posts. 

Why do you keep doing it? 

The only thing established here is that a "Retired Political Science Professor" is semi-illiterate. Don't worry, it's a film clip, no reading involved.

"It's no good Montag, we've all got to be alike. The only way to be happy is for everyone to be made equal. So, we must burn the books Montag, all the books."

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3 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

I love thet moovie!                                              :)

Yeah! And the best part about a movie is that nobody has to read anything!

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2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Not true. 

Stalin and Roosevelt were two old white guys.  

Robert E. Lee and Abraham Lincoln were two old white guys. 

Pick one of the pairs above and discuss why "swapping them out" might make a difference in two short paragraphs.

 

On the brighter side, what would you give to have Jacinda Ardern in the White House?

In what room, in what position? Do you want to hear all my fantasies?

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12 hours ago, mikewof said:

Aside from all the politics, what a beautiful performance, huh?

I showed this video to my born-in-Alabama son back when he was about 6 years old, he just got really quiet, taking all this beauty in; the music, the audience, the time. The video ended, he asked me the name of the band, then asks me "can we go there to see Lynrd Skynrd?"

If only that was possible, huh?

Then I showed him this one, he seemed to get as sad as I do when I see it, 

There is something about Southern culture that only Southerners will ever really understand. This battle flag business, it's their business, it has nothing to do with us. It's 2020 and The South struggles with the same types of problems as the rest of us, we shouldn't give them extra stress, they'll work out their question with the flags and the statues and the cops the same as us.

Short, Cliffy??  Now you are really dreaming...  

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10 hours ago, mikewof said:

This, from some guy who separates himself from his countrymen with his yacht, with his yacht clubs, with his wealth, with his access to the things that 80% of the country couldn't touch.

You embrace the "other" you just have convinced yourself that you don't.

No doubt I have a boat. A small task force if you include the 3 dinghies. Given my “yacht” cost less than a base model F150 not sure how “wealthy” that makes me, but like most Americans, yeah, wealthy compared to say sub Saharan africa

So I choose to drive a 2005 car instead of a 2019, and it pays for my marina fees. Choices baby.

none of the above mean anything as to why the “south” uses a symbol of sedition to show patriotism. But I also don’t understand how Christians use a symbol of a torture/execution device to show love of a god.

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11 hours ago, mikewof said:

The only thing established here is that a "Retired Political Science Professor" is semi-illiterate. 

 

No, it's true Mike. Nobody even tries to read your long posts.

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15 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

No, it's true Mike. Nobody even tries to read your long posts.

That's fair, he doesn't read other peoples' either

- DSK

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25 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

No, it's true Mike. Nobody even tries to read your long posts.

One of the defining aspects of both sociopaths and some children is a willingness to integrate the involuntary compliance of those whom they victimize in their emotional responses.

Children tend to grow out of it eventually when they learn that other's opinions are not formed inside their imaginations. 

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11 minutes ago, mikewof said:

 integrate the involuntary compliance of those whom they victimize in their emotional responses.

 

yummy salad

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10 minutes ago, mikewof said:

One of the defining aspects of both sociopaths and some children is a willingness to integrate the involuntary compliance of those whom they victimize in their emotional responses.

Children tend to grow out of it eventually when they learn that other's opinions are not formed inside their imaginations. 

TL;DR

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

No doubt I have a boat. A small task force if you include the 3 dinghies. Given my “yacht” cost less than a base model F150 not sure how “wealthy” that makes me, but like most Americans, yeah, wealthy compared to say sub Saharan africa

So I choose to drive a 2005 car instead of a 2019, and it pays for my marina fees. Choices baby.

none of the above mean anything as to why the “south” uses a symbol of sedition to show patriotism. But I also don’t understand how Christians use a symbol of a torture/execution device to show love of a god.

People who have the luxury to spend time on boats as owners rather than as employees tend to have sufficient property to protect, that their relationship with the police is one of employer, rather than victim.

You don't understand why a crucifix is a holy to many Christians, you don't understand why some Black people vote for Trump, you don't understand why the Battle Flag represents Southern Pride to some people, for the same reason you don't understand why I feel unstoppable pride when I see the American Flag, even though it represents modern-day slavery through incarnations, and the deaths of millions of innocents in Vietnam, Iran, Afghanistan, and Latin America.

You don't understand why I feel pride in the American Flag for the same reason you don't understand why Trump has Black supporters, and why a crucifix is holy to Christians.

But you can understand if you choose. I'll get you started ...

1. Memorize the preamble, the little tune up there will help.

2. Start with the First Amendment, and understand that as an American, you will fight to protect the words, thoughts of symbols of the people with whom you disagree most.

3. Give that some time, then pick another part of the Bill of Rights to integrate into your life.

You'll get there, I promise.

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1 minute ago, mikewof said:

People who have the luxury to spend time on boats as owners rather than as employees tend to have sufficient property to protect, that their relationship with the police is one of employer, rather than victim.

You don't understand why a crucifix is a holy to many Christians, you don't understand why some Black people vote for Trump, you don't understand why the Battle Flag represents Southern Pride to some people, for the same reason you don't understand why I feel unstoppable pride when I see the American Flag, even though it represents modern-day slavery through incarnations, and the deaths of millions of innocents in Vietnam, Iran, Afghanistan, and Latin America.

You don't understand why I feel pride in the American Flag for the same reason you don't understand why Trump has Black supporters, and why a crucifix is holy to Christians.

But you can understand if you choose. I'll get you started ...

1. Memorize the preamble, the little tune up there will help.

2. Start with the First Amendment, and understand that as an American, you will fight to protect the words, thoughts of symbols of the people with whom you disagree most.

3. Give that some time, then pick another part of the Bill of Rights to integrate into your life.

You'll get there, I promise.

You've become a sanctimonious ass.

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3 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

You've become a sanctimonious ass.

I didn't even need to click on the thread to know that comment was about woofsie... ;)  Sad really, b4 he lost it he was entertaining.  

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Just now, Raz'r said:

You've become a sanctimonious ass.

The best part about that Schoolhouse Rock video is that you don't have to read anything, but you can still learn the preamble to the Constitution.

Then you won't have to do your "too long, didn't read" thing.

In time, you'll learn why Americans fight to protect the rights of those whom with we disagree most.

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1 minute ago, mikewof said:

The best part about that Schoolhouse Rock video is that you don't have to read anything, but you can still learn the preamble to the Constitution.

Then you won't have to do your "too long, didn't read" thing.

In time, you'll learn why Americans fight to protect the rights of those whom with we disagree most.

Did I ever say they "Can't"

No. They have every right to. No debate.

Of course, when they do, they are virtue signaling that they are racist pieces of treasonous trash, but they have every right to do that.

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Just now, Raz'r said:

Did I ever say they "Can't"

No. They have every right to. No debate.

Of course, when they do, they are virtue signaling that they are racist pieces of treasonous trash, but they have every right to do that.

Treason and racism are defined by actions. A flag is a symbol, it creates different thoughts in different people, and it is protected by The Constitution that is "too long" for you to read.

You may feel anger and hatred at the sight of the Flag of the United States of America, as it represents slavery and the wholesale slaughter of millions on millions of innocents. But I feel pride when I see the Flag of the USA, because it represents ideals that can help make lives better all over the world.

You may not understand my pride in the Flag of the USA, but when you understand The Constitution, you'll fight to protect my right to fly that flag, rather than become something of a contrary carbuncle in the pages of a website frequented by the kind of people who employ police to protect their wealth.

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On 6/13/2020 at 2:34 PM, shaggy said:

"I'm also opposed to banning Mark Twain's "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" because they use the word nigger.  Use the word, and talk about what is wrong with it. Learn from it."

Yes, Otherwise we are just burning books.  Never was a good idea....  

Well, you are right, but for the wrong reasons. 

AHF is arguably Twain's most important book. In it, he works through the racism with which he was raised. The book explains Huck's transformation from racist to humanist through his friendship with escaped slave Jim. 

If you visit Mark Twain State Park where Clemons was born you can see the tiny cabin the family lived in (with their slave). The museum guides, many African American, will be glad to discuss Huck Finn with you. 

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There is another rebel monument near us on an island in Sandusky Bay put up by the Daughters of the Confederacy around 1910. 

In an otherwise beautiful and solemn place, they put up a statue of a CSA soldier called "The Sentinel". The inscription on it is even worse: "Sceptered sovereigns still rule us from the dust".

It's hard to imagine a worse insult to the northern soldiers who fought to end slavery. 

If somehow the statue fell into the bay by accident, I would lead the cheers. 

Confederate statue controversy yet to reach Ohio's Civil War Rebel ...

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12 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

There is another rebel monument near us on an island in Sandusky Bay put up by the Daughters of the Confederacy around 1910. 

In an otherwise beautiful and solemn place, they put up a statue of a CSA soldier called "The Sentinel". The inscription on it is even worse: "Sceptered sovereigns still rule us from the dust".

It's hard to imagine a worse insult to the northern soldiers who fought to end slavery. 

If somehow the statue fell into the bay by accident, I would lead the cheers. 

Confederate statue controversy yet to reach Ohio's Civil War Rebel ...

Avsolitely astounding.

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Mikewolf

I rwcommend eading and also listening to James Baldwin.

Youtube makes possible to easily hear him now. He may clear up some things forvyou about southern culture

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

Treason and racism are defined by actions. A flag is a symbol, it creates different thoughts in different people, and it is protected by The Constitution that is "too long" for you to read.

You may feel anger and hatred at the sight of the Flag of the United States of America, as it represents slavery and the wholesale slaughter of millions on millions of innocents. But I feel pride when I see the Flag of the USA, because it represents ideals that can help make lives better all over the world.

You may not understand my pride in the Flag of the USA, but when you understand The Constitution, you'll fight to protect my right to fly that flag, rather than become something of a contrary carbuncle in the pages of a website frequented by the kind of people who employ police to protect their wealth.

Flying a racist flag is an action. Sorry for your confusion.

And enough of your strawmen. I do not "Hate" the US Flag nor see it as representing slavery. That might be your position, it's not mine, nor do I even give a shit what you are prideful for. However, if you fly a Nazi flag I'll assume you are a Nazi and all that entails, or if you fly the Confed flag, the same.

Your choice.

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17 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Flying a racist flag is an action. Sorry for your confusion.

And enough of your strawmen. I do not "Hate" the US Flag nor see it as representing slavery. That might be your position, it's not mine, nor do I even give a shit what you are prideful for. However, if you fly a Nazi flag I'll assume you are a Nazi and all that entails, or if you fly the Confed flag, the same.

Your choice.

if you take away the strawmen and word salad, Mikey's posts would be just punctuation

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22 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Mikewolf

I rwcommend eading and also listening to James Baldwin.

Youtube makes possible to easily hear him now. He may clear up some things forvyou about southern culture

I read Beale Street in Junior High in Denver, and then some of his shorts a few years later. They didn't do much to change the bias I had about things Southern. I had been taught that the South was a backwards place full of hatred and ignorance, reinforced by the obvious required reading of Harper Lee.

The victor writes the history.

I held those biases against most things Southern, until I moved to Alabama and then lived there long enough to find that Southerners weren't in fact the hordes of racist, intolerant jackals portrayed in the books.

But Baldwin's real Trojan Horse for me was the tiniest introduction to the idea that Homosexuals might not in fact be the monsters that we were taught. There were hints of that in Beale, a few others in his shorts, but none so overt that he scared away the readers of the time.

And then I generally didn't think about it in Alabama, gays were people who lived in Greenwich Village and Soho and not in Tuscaloosa, or if they were in T-town, they didn't make themselves known.

But then on a flight into Birmingham, I bummed a ride home with an off-duty Tuscaloosa cop. We get to talking, he tells me that he's gay, and I ask him if he's all alone like that in the Buckle of The Bible Belt. He spent the next half hour telling me about a few different underground gay clubs in town. I half suspected he was lying to me, these places had been right under my nose for the last several years there, and I never noticed one of them.

A few days later, I start looking for these places, mostly convinced that cop was lying to me. It was all true. An unmarked storefront with blacked windows a few blocks off of University in downtown Tuscaloosa, no activity during the day, but at night, bass pumping through the walls, and inside it mostly looked like any other NYC dance club. Another one in Northport, another one under a restaurant downtown.

It was like a hidden world, in plain view. All these Southern gays, like that cop, they just loved the South, they loved Alabama enough to never want to leave, but if you're gay, what do you do other than remake the city into exactly the kind of place you need it to be to survive?

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19 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Flying a racist flag is an action. Sorry for your confusion.

And enough of your strawmen. I do not "Hate" the US Flag nor see it as representing slavery. That might be your position, it's not mine, nor do I even give a shit what you are prideful for. However, if you fly a Nazi flag I'll assume you are a Nazi and all that entails, or if you fly the Confed flag, the same.

Your choice.

Please explain ... why does the Confederate battle flag represent slavery, but the Flag of the USA does not?

Have you read the Thirteenth Amendment?

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24 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Please explain ... why does the Confederate battle flag represent slavery, but the Flag of the USA does not?

Have you read the Thirteenth Amendment?

Google "US Civil War". 

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9 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Google "US Civil War". 

Our whatabouter-in-chief might also Google "Southern States rationale for seceding from the Union" or even "Emancipation Proclamation"

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