JimBowie

What's Wrong with the CONfedrate FlAG?

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37 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Huh? The chart shows that about 82% of nonviolent offenders serving life without parole (i.e. a type of slave) are composed of people of color. It doesn't have any data at all on the number of people of color who are imprisoned for nonviolent crimes.

Read your post again  -  the one I was responding to. 

You said many black people are incarcerated  -  with a graphic showing how many of those incarcerated, are black.  Those are not the same things.

Many/most of the incarcerated are black: true.

Many/most black people are incarcerated: false.

 

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We could discuss which one is worse. But that's not really the point here. The point is that the USA enslaves people in full compliance with the U.S. Constitution.

I've made a flag in protest of this reality ... the vertical blue bars represent the Americans enslaved by the Thirteenth Amendment and the reverse red field of stars represents the inversion of Natural Law and social justice for these enslaved Americans.

1439613013_ScreenShot2020-06-25at2_14_31AM.png.38418fa49d4e8e4b49204b79cb3f7391.png

My protest flag design is Dead Nuts Money. Unlike the flag of the USA and the Confederate battle flag, this flag does not represent slavery.

And finally, I disagree with any attempt to just blow this off, because slavery in 2020 is fundamentally worse than slavery in 1860, because we don't have a time machine, and we can't unenslave those Americans in 1860. We can do something about American slaves in 2020. For instance we can require that any corporation that wants to employ prisoners has to pay Federal minimum wage. If they can't afford minimum wage, they can't afford to enslave Americans. Prisoners should be eligible for trade unions. If they can't have a trade union then they should not be employed.

This double standard we have now is fucking insane, and there is no way that even a fairly rational person like Mark can deny it. The prison industries essentially say that these prisoners are sufficiently nonviolent to work for the American public, but they aren't sufficiently nonviolent to not be imprisoned. And that, Frenchy is the barest exposure of slavery. Back in 1960, that same reasoning said that these Americans were sufficiently productive to make money for American corporations, but they weren't sufficiently productive to make money for themselves.

Anyone who supports slavery in 2020 as "incarceration" is a traitor to the Preamble of the Constitution. The Thirteenth Amendment needs to be overturned. Slavery wasn't Constitutional back in 1776, it wasn't Constitutional when the Thirteenth was amended and it isn't Constitutional in 2020.

Who's trying to blow it off?  Fighting against it doesn't require pretending it's as bad as slavery was.

I've been donating to the Abolition Law Center and the Innocence Project for years, and got involved in my local politics to support better judges & DAs and try to get rid of the crappy ones (and was heartbroken when Ken Thompson died).  And educating myself.

You?  Besides making protest flags, obv.

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28 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Violence removes life, liberty or property from another person.

That's what you say violence does.  What is violence?

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13 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Are those wounds self-inflicted?.

Assuming they were not self-inflicted, someone clearly removed that man's attempts at life and liberty, and he would be a victim of violence.

No, he was just punched in the face.

Not violence according the mikewof.

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On 6/12/2020 at 7:35 AM, JimBowie said:

it's just a small piece of cloth clung to desperately by Covid-carrying Sons of the South.

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34 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

That's what you say violence does.  What is violence?

Rule of thumb in life and love, Clean ... Jai Alai IS the act of playing Jai Alai.

If you can understand how that works, questions of violence are a good bit easier.

Didn't they teach you about Jai Alai in law school?

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52 minutes ago, frenchie said:

Read your post again  -  the one I was responding to. 

You said many black people are incarcerated  -  with a graphic showing how many of those incarcerated, are black.  Those are not the same things.

Many/most of the incarcerated are black: true.

Many/most black people are incarcerated: false.

 

Who's trying to blow it off?  Fighting against it doesn't require pretending it's as bad as slavery was.

I've been donating to the Abolition Law Center and the Innocence Project for years, and got involved in my local politics to support better judges & DAs and try to get rid of the crappy ones (and was heartbroken when Ken Thompson died).  And educating myself.

You?  Besides making protest flags, obv.

That bit in bold up there, I didn't claim that, obviously it's silly. I read that bit you asked me to read. It seems clear to me, but apologies if it wasn't clear.

I made that protest flag. That took hours to figure out how to flip the stripes while maintaining the visual aspect ratio. Please don't minimize good design, it's not easy. I also found that Jai Alai video.

I do lots of pro bono work, we don't need a pissing contest.

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50 minutes ago, astro said:

No, he was just punched in the face.

Not violence according the mikewof.

Punching someone is an act of violence. Sometimes it's justified violence, but it's still violence.

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Just now, mikewof said:

Punching someone is an act of violence. Sometimes it's justified violence, but it's still violence.

That's so fucking awesome mikey, but it has not "removed that man's attempts at life and liberty,"  He is still alive and at liberty.

That makes you a fucking clown ... for the 5076th time.

How was the break bad boy?  Did it give you more time on the other sites you shill on?

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

I do lots of pro bono work, we don't need a pissing contest.

Don't claim I'm "blowing off" the prison-industrial complex when I'm just pointing out that it's neither as brutal nor as universal as actual slavery.

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Incarceration and race based chattel slavery are apples and oranges. Labels that would make us stupid if there were to stick. 

  The Confederate flag, as the colors of the Army of Northern Virginia is deemed today,  became a no-no when it the KKK and critters like Dylan Roof started waving it and those who wished to keep it a symbol of Southern pride didn't even try to slap it out of their hands. You let Southern pride become indistinguishable from 'let's go kill us a nigger' so you have snoozed. Now you lose...

NASCAR!!

...oh the humanity!       

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7 hours ago, frenchie said:

Don't claim I'm "blowing off" the prison-industrial complex when I'm just pointing out that it's neither as brutal nor as universal as actual slavery.

Contemporary enslavement destroys families and futures just as much as historical enslavement. It's equally brutal, because unlike the 1800s, there is no Underground Railroad, there is almost no chance for escape, and there is rarely a chance for contemporary slaves to raise their own children or even maintain their own culture.

But unlike history, it's here now, we can change it. 

Minimizing the impact of institutional slavery in 2020 gives an easy out to people like Mark who claim that it doesn't actually exist.

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

Incarceration and race based chattel slavery are apples and oranges. Labels that would make us stupid if there were to stick. 

  The Confederate flag, as the colors of the Army of Northern Virginia is deemed today,  became a no-no when it the KKK and critters like Dylan Roof started waving it and those who wished to keep it a symbol of Southern pride didn't even try to slap it out of their hands. You let Southern pride become indistinguishable from 'let's go kill us a nigger' so you have snoozed. Now you lose...

NASCAR!!

...oh the humanity!       

Southerners have the most integrated culture I have ever experienced. They have a lot of which to be proud. Their symbology is their concern, not everyone else's.

As for incarceration and forced labor of nonviolent Americans and immigrants, do tell Mark, how are they sufficiently different in your mind that you can claim that a slave in 2020 is better off than a slave in 1840?

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9 hours ago, astro said:

That's so fucking awesome mikey, but it has not "removed that man's attempts at life and liberty,"  He is still alive and at liberty.

That makes you a fucking clown ... for the 5076th time.

How was the break bad boy?  Did it give you more time on the other sites you shill on?

You aren't an American, you have no skin in this game, so you troll.

When someone has the life beaten out of them, even if they survive, they are still the victim of a violent crime.

This isn't rocket surgery, Aussie.

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10 hours ago, Mid said:

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Now we're getting somewhere. So it seems that you suggest that when hate-mongering racists associate themselves with a certain flag, that flag then becomes a symbol of their hatred and people should thus lose their access to that symbol, right?

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images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQS85Y4mJCLJKcNa7smHcd

Okay, so now that we've established that virulent hate-mongers, fascists, and racists have embraced the American Flag as their symbol, how do we go about banning the American Flag and with what do we replace it?

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Why would anyone want to fly a loser flag?

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

Southerners have the most integrated culture I have ever experienced. They have a lot of which to be proud. Their symbology is their concern, not everyone else's.

As for incarceration and forced labor of nonviolent Americans and immigrants, do tell Mark, how are they sufficiently different in your mind that you can claim that a slave in 2020 is better off than a slave in 1840?

The power of the slave master over the slave MUST be absolute. Everything from capital punishment on down, and in the case of US chattel slavery, the right to sell your kids to someone else. You have kids, right? Can you imagine someone selling them to someone else and having to just stand there and watch it? 

 To suggest there is no real difference between that abomination and incarceration in the US today??  I know you're just messing around but know that if you weren't you would be a very sick puppy.   

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56 minutes ago, Nice! said:

Why would anyone want to fly a loser flag?

There are plenty of losers who do.

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

You aren't an American, you have no skin in this game, so you troll.

When someone has the life beaten out of them, even if they survive, they are still the victim of a violent crime.

This isn't rocket surgery, Aussie.

Hahhahaaaa.

So what does not being American have to do with you being wrong?

Definitions of violence are not rocket science but you still fucked it up, again.

Misinformation Central.

giphy.gif

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3 hours ago, Mark K said:

The power of the slave master over the slave MUST be absolute. Everything from capital punishment on down, and in the case of US chattel slavery, the right to sell your kids to someone else. You have kids, right? Can you imagine someone selling them to someone else and having to just stand there and watch it? 

 To suggest there is no real difference between that abomination and incarceration in the US today??  I know you're just messing around but know that if you weren't you would be a very sick puppy.   

I'm trying to follow your logic here ...

So since there are differences in the way someone is enslaved in 2020 versus say, 1820, the person in 2020 isn't actually a slave? This is the logic you use to sleep at night for your compliance in enslaving your fellow Americans?

There are ways when it was worse to be a slave in 1820, and there are ways when it's worse to be a slave in 2020. But you've clearly stated here that you believe that someone like this, isn't actually enslaved ... History isn't going to side with you on this one, Mark. And there is one overwhelming difference between slavery in 1820 versus 2020 ... back then, it was private individuals who enslaved people. But now, it's you, me and all the other citizens of the USA who are enslaving our fellow Americans.

 

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4 hours ago, Nice! said:

Why would anyone want to fly a loser flag?

Pride and protest, like this loser flag, a testament to the slavery in America, circa 2020 ...

1442128037_ScreenShot2020-06-25at2_14_31AM.png.7d872bc98101cdb927d5a5a0ec906348.png

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15 hours ago, mikewof said:

A non-violent crime is a crime that doesn't remove life, liberty or property from another person.

And which crimes that are non-violent per your definition are unfairly punishable by jail/prison time?

What does ‘another person’ mean exactly?

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4 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

And which crimes that are non-violent per your definition are unfairly punishable by jail/prison time?

What does ‘another person’ mean exactly?

I've no idea what Mikey's current crusade is, hell, I don't think he does.

But many drug crimes should be "de-criminalized" - they serve no public purpose.

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5 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

And which crimes that are non-violent per your definition are unfairly punishable by jail/prison time?

What does ‘another person’ mean exactly?

You need me to explain to you which crimes are nonviolent and subject to prison?

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15 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

That's what you say violence does.  What is violence?

Excellent point.

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5 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I've no idea what Mikey's current crusade is, hell, I don't think he does.

But many drug crimes should be "de-criminalized" - they serve no public purpose.

We disagree on drug crimes.  No good comes from the vast majority of illegal drugs.  
 

I think Mike is confusing FEELING enslaved with actually BEING enslaved.  

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2 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

We disagree on drug crimes.  No good comes from the vast majority of illegal drugs.  
 

I think Mike is confusing FEELING enslaved with actually BEING enslaved.  

Illegal drugs. there you go. why are they illegal? Cali has THC delivery companies, right to your door. Seems less societal damaging than booze. Should we lock up all drinkers? Why not?

Why jail a casual user?

Like demilitarizing the police, there are many more effective, and cheaper interdiction methods.

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11 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Illegal drugs. there you go. why are they illegal? Cali has THC delivery companies, right to your door. Seems less societal damaging than booze. Should we lock up all drinkers? Why not?

Why jail a casual user?

Like demilitarizing the police, there are many more effective, and cheaper interdiction methods.

I understand your point regarding CASUAL use.   My personal experience (not personal drug use but that of friends/family, etc) has shown drug use just destroys lives.    
 

I don’t want to discuss the drug laws issue.  Do I think someone should loose  their job because they smoked a few joints while on vacation the previously month? No.   Do I think someone busted with a bottle of illegally gotten oxy?  Yes.
 

 

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40 minutes ago, mikewof said:

You need me to explain to you which crimes are nonviolent and subject to prison?

No.  I asked you to explain which non violent crimes (per your definition) are unfairly punished by jail/prison time.

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6 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

I understand your point regarding CASUAL use.   My personal experience (not personal drug use but that of friends/family, etc) has shown drug use just destroys lives.    
 

I don’t want to discuss the drug laws issue.  Do I think someone should loose  their job because they smoked a few joints while on vacation the previously month? No.   Do I think someone busted with a bottle of illegally gotten oxy?  Yes.
 

 

The cure for that is simple. Legalize cannabis.

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17 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

I understand your point regarding CASUAL use.   My personal experience (not personal drug use but that of friends/family, etc) has shown drug use just destroys lives.    
 

I don’t want to discuss the drug laws issue.  Do I think someone should loose  their job because they smoked a few joints while on vacation the previously month? No.   Do I think someone busted with a bottle of illegally gotten oxy?  Yes.
 

Agreed.

I hope that the families profiting from the opioid crisis get jail time and stripped of any/all assets.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Rok Dog said:

I understand your point regarding CASUAL use.   My personal experience (not personal drug use but that of friends/family, etc) has shown drug use just destroys lives.    
 

I don’t want to discuss the drug laws issue.  Do I think someone should loose  their job because they smoked a few joints while on vacation the previously month? No.   Do I think someone busted with a bottle of illegally gotten oxy?  Yes.
 

Alcohol is by far the most lethal and dangerous drug in our country, it kills more Americans than all other drugs combined. By your logic, why not reinstate Prohibition?

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2 hours ago, Rok Dog said:

We disagree on drug crimes.  No good comes from the vast majority of illegal drugs.  
 

I think Mike is confusing FEELING enslaved with actually BEING enslaved.  

"No good"?

Are we now in the business in the USA of making illegal any and all things which produce "no good"?

Amusement parks, video games, gambling, alcohol, fancy cars? All illegal?

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Agreed.

I hope that the families profiting from the opioid crisis get jail time and stripped of any/all assets.

- DSK

Why not give jail time to families and people who profit from the alcohol crisis?

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2 hours ago, Rok Dog said:

I understand your point regarding CASUAL use.   My personal experience (not personal drug use but that of friends/family, etc) has shown drug use just destroys lives.    
 

I don’t want to discuss the drug laws issue.  Do I think someone should loose  their job because they smoked a few joints while on vacation the previously month? No.   Do I think someone busted with a bottle of illegally gotten oxy?  Yes.
 

 

Oxy is fucking hell on wheels, and it was force fed to us by corporate assholes who should not only lose their fortune, but should do serious time. I’m sorry if that scourge impacted friends or family, but it’s hard to blame the addicts who started taking something their Drs gave them for pain but which hooked their life savings into a corporate Hoover vac.

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14 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Alcohol is by far the most lethal and dangerous drug in our country, it kills more Americans than all other drugs combined. By your logic, why not reinstate Prohibition?

Not so sure about that now with the opioid crisis.

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Just now, Raz'r said:

Not so sure about that now with the opioid crisis.

The data varies. Alcohol is a big one though.

Of course, the elephant in the room is tobacco, about.480,000 deaths per year in the USA. Are you okay with legalized tobacco?

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28 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Oxy is fucking hell on wheels, and it was force fed to us by corporate assholes who should not only lose their fortune, but should do serious time. I’m sorry if that scourge impacted friends or family, but it’s hard to blame the addicts who started taking something their Drs gave them for pain but which hooked their life savings into a corporate Hoover vac.

Oxy is a legal, prescribed drug in the USA, and a highly abused drug. But so is alcohol, tobacco and sugar.

It seems you're suggesting that Americans who sell opioids through pharmacies should continue to do so legally, and those who sell them on street corners should be enslaved.

Does that discrepancy seem income-based to you?

This seems to circle back to the Confederate battle flag ... we embrace the perception of one thing which symbolizes something we detest, while we simultaneously ignore a much bigger problem ... almost as if the act of scapegoating allows us to cleanse our guilt.

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16 minutes ago, mikewof said:

The data varies. Alcohol is a big one though.

Of course, the elephant in the room is tobacco, about.480,000 deaths per year in the USA. Are you okay with legalized tobacco?

Tobacco should have been outlawed decades ago. Hey, private prison corporations need customers, too.

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21 minutes ago, mikewof said:

The data varies. Alcohol is a big one though.

Of course, the elephant in the room is tobacco, about.480,000 deaths per year in the USA. Are you okay with legalized tobacco?

Me? Yeah, why wouldn’t I be? I don’t mind taxing the shit out of it however.

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1 minute ago, fastyacht said:

Tobacco should have been outlawed decades ago. Hey, private prison corporations need customers, too.

If we outlawed tobacco in all forms, at least we would have followed a data-based approach.

But then we would also have to rationally outlaw all refined sugars, which are an even bigger public health cost than tobacco. Speakeasies with chocolate bars and Twinkies, the mind reels ...

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17 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Oxy is a legal, prescribed drug in the USA, and a highly abused drug. But so is alcohol, tobacco and sugar.

It seems you're suggesting that Americans who sell opioids through pharmacies should continue to do so legally, and those who sell them on street corners should be enslaved.

Does that discrepancy seem income-based to you?

This seems to circle back to the Confederate battle flag ... we embrace the perception of one thing which symbolizes something we detest, while we simultaneously ignore a much bigger problem ... almost as if the act of scapegoating allows us to cleanse our guilt.

You must be talking about someone else’s positions. 

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Just now, Raz'r said:

Me? Yeah, why wouldn’t I be? I don’t mind taxing the shit out of it however.

Legal tobacco, legal oxy from the pharmacy. Legal American flag.

Illegal oxy from the street dealer, illegal Confederate battle flag.

A pattern emerges ...

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10 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Legal tobacco, legal oxy from the pharmacy. Legal American flag.

Illegal oxy from the street dealer, illegal Confederate battle flag.

A pattern emerges ...

You must be talking to someone who has opinions different than my own. I advocate legalization. As to Oxy, that family that got the Feds in their pocket? Lock em up

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9 hours ago, mikewof said:

Contemporary enslavement destroys families and futures just as much as historical enslavement.

That's a GROSS minimization of slavery.  

Not sure what the ratio was between enslaved and free Black people back then, but I'm pretty damn fucking sure it was higher than 2.3 to 97.7.

Nobody sells your children off "down the river", never to be seen again.

Your prison guard can't rape your wife, or your daughter, on a whim.

When the bus carries you from jail to prison after sentencing, you don't have 15 to 30 percent of the inmates die enroute.

They can taze, they can beat you, they can abuse you in myriad petty ways... but they can't whip the flesh off your back, on a whim.  Or douse you in brine, after.

You try to escape, and they catch you, they can't amputate one of your limbs as a punishment.

 

Bah.  Fuck this.  You've turned into... just another repulsive troll.  Slightly more clever version of BravoBravo. 

I'm done with this, and you. 

Go fuck yourself. 

 

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10 hours ago, frenchie said:

That's a GROSS minimization of slavery.  

Not sure what the ratio was between enslaved and free Black people back then, but I'm pretty damn fucking sure it was higher than 2.3 to 97.7.

Nobody sells your children off "down the river", never to be seen again.

Your prison guard can't rape your wife, or your daughter, on a whim.

When the bus carries you from jail to prison after sentencing, you don't have 15 to 30 percent of the inmates die enroute.

They can taze, they can beat you, they can abuse you in myriad petty ways... but they can't whip the flesh off your back, on a whim.  Or douse you in brine, after.

You try to escape, and they catch you, they can't amputate one of your limbs as a punishment.

 

Bah.  Fuck this.  You've turned into... just another repulsive troll.  Slightly more clever version of BravoBravo. 

I'm done with this, and you. 

Go fuck yourself. 

 

But you continue to leave out the most important difference between slavery in 1820 versus 2020 ... slavery in 1820 is now history, and we can't change it.

Slavery in 2020 is here now, we can decide as a country to stop doing it.

As to the differences? I agree with you, they are different. The danger with minimizing slavery in 2020 is that Americans like Mark and Rokdog need barely the slightest input to decide that what happens under our supervision in 2020 isn't in fact slavery, but more like a kind of voluntary summer camp for hardened criminals, rather than a mandatory work scheme for people of poverty.

If we accept that what is in front of us is a form of slavery, then we obligate ourselves to do something about it.

 

Quick aside .. you mentioned that you might consider union representation. A friend and her husband just joined a local service union for their mom&pop business. Some unions only require that the company have two employee-owners. It may not be too late for you, if you still want to go that route.

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So if slavery is such an issue and incarceration is a subset of that then why are you not outraged about the rampant covid-19 infections sweeping thru the prison/jail populations?

Oh yeah, because it's just like the flu.    You get one try at an answer before back to ignore.

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11 hours ago, Raz'r said:

You must be talking to someone who has opinions different than my own. I advocate legalization. As to Oxy, that family that got the Feds in their pocket? Lock em up

I'm not clear on this though ...

So by "legalization" you mean that pharmaceuticals like oxycodone and dilaudid should be made available to any adult who wants it, like tobacco?

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Just now, d'ranger said:

So if slavery is such an issue and incarceration is a subset of that then why are you not outraged about the rampant covid-19 infections sweeping thru the prison/jail populations?

Oh yeah, because it's just like the flu.    You get one try at an answer before back to ignore.

By "sweeping thru" and "rampant" the current mortality rate of U.S. prisoners infected by SARS-CoV-2 is about 1.7%.

Obviously it would be better if that was 0%, but community-acquired infections like SARS-CoV-2, pneumonia, hepatitis hit prisoners hard.

Back in the 1990s, prisoners died from HIV AIDS in huge numbers. And over the decades they continue to die from drug addictions and overdoses.

So why am I not outraged? Because community acquired infections are part of life both inside prisons, office buildings, and herds of cattle. It's Mother Nature doing her thing. But enslaving our fellow Americans for the crime of poverty? We control that, it's our policy, it's our laws, it's our profit structures.

 

 

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39 minutes ago, mikewof said:

I'm not clear on this though ...

So by "legalization" you mean that pharmaceuticals like oxycodone and dilaudid should be made available to any adult who wants it, like tobacco?

Sigh

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13 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Sigh

Disengage.

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5 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Disengage.

The lazy version of clarification.

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20 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Sigh

I'll take that as a "no."

So what's legal? Tobacco, alcohol, weed, pharmaceutical-provided Oxycontin/Oxycodone, television and sugar?

And illegal is the same stuff that's currently illegal, like non-pharma Oxy, heroin, etc.?

So then, no actual change?

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Welcome back to ignore Mikey - pulling shit out of your ass still doesn't work.

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maybe a stupid question... (i don't have a US passport, i'm not a US citizen, don't live in the US (actually never even been there) and know little about US history)

i've learned a a lot the last couple of months about all the negative things connected to te confederate flag.(slavery) are there also positive things connected to this flag? (people are apparantly very proud of it...)

 

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21 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Welcome back to ignore Mikey - pulling shit out of your ass still doesn't work.

And in your mind, infections and death aren't a natural part of life, but an excuse to blame someone else for politics with which you don't agree.

But sure, if you disagree with actual data, then it becomes "shit out of ass."

But guess what, reality is what it is: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/06/01/what-covid-19-prison-outbreaks-could-teach-us-about-herd-immunity

Duh'ranger, in full bloomed glory.

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Ahh, better already.

You've chosen to ignore content by mikewof. Options 

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16 minutes ago, daan62 said:

maybe a stupid question... (i don't have a US passport, i'm not a US citizen, don't live in the US (actually never even been there) and know little about US history)

i've learned a a lot the last couple of months about all the negative things connected to te confederate flag.(slavery) are there also positive things connected to this flag? (people are apparantly very proud of it...)

It's history. (And in my opinion it's no less a reminder of genocide than the USA flag which I love so dearly.) History should be remembered and sometimes celebrated as a choice of an individual, along with some amount of consensus of society.

If we run around chopping down every statue, monument, and flag of a time that we no longer agree, we become a people without history.

And just an aside, but Southerners have a lot to be proud of their contemporary culture. Their history should be remembered, but contemporary Southerners should not be demonized for their choices of symbology.

In the USA we have the First Amendment to The Constitution which protects the rights of people to say,, write and demonstrate as they believe. That flag is an opportunity for Americans to protect our Constitution.

Let's pick an easier flag ... the Nazi flag. Nothing redeeming there. And yet, when I see someone with a Nazi tattoo, or a flag (rare these days, but common in my youth in Colorado) I think of the beauty of our Constitution. If our protects even that monstrosity, then it will presumably protect our more pedestrian thoughts and opinions.

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7 minutes ago, mikewof said:

It's history. (And in my opinion it's no less a reminder of genocide than the USA flag which I love so dearly.) History should be remembered and sometimes celebrated as a choice of an individual, along with some amount of consensus of society.

If we run around chopping down every statue, monument, and flag of a time that we no longer agree, we become a people without history.

And just an aside, but Southerners have a lot to be proud of their contemporary culture. Their history should be remembered, but contemporary Southerners should not be demonized for their choices of symbology.

a monument connected to ugly things in the past could trigger people thinking about what happened. (maybe learning a thing or two) removing it would lead to forgetting it. (and with that not learning from it)

 

but a battle flag is not a monument... (my opinion.../ i might not understand properly how the flag was created)

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5 minutes ago, daan62 said:

a monument connected to ugly things in the past could trigger people thinking about what happened. (maybe learning a thing or two) removing it would lead to forgetting it. (and with that not learning from it)

 

but a battle flag is not a monument...

Flags are expressions of speech, thought and history. They are supposed to be protected by our Constitution as means of free expression.

I made a protest flag of prison enslavement in this thread. If I made a protest flag in China, I would be sitting in a prison cell right now, or have my organs on the harvesting table.

Screen Shot 2020-06-25 at 2.14.31 AM.png

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5 minutes ago, daan62 said:

a monument connected to ugly things in the past could trigger people thinking about what happened. (maybe learning a thing or two) removing it would lead to forgetting it. (and with that not learning from it)

 

but a battle flag is not a monument... (my opinion.../ i might not understand properly how the flag was created)

So why hasn't anyone forgotten about Hitler? Where was the outrage when the statues of Saddam Hussein were torn down (the same folks whining about confederate statues are the same who cheered that).  Since you are not American and attempting to learn something from a nutjob I will point out that all of the confederate statues were erected in the Jim Crow era to daily remind former slaves that nothing had changed and they better mind their manners and know their place.  The flag is the battle flag of Virginia and is meant to do the same thing.

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16 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

So why hasn't anyone forgotten about Hitler? Where was the outrage when the statues of Saddam Hussein were torn down (the same folks whining about confederate statues are the same who cheered that).  Since you are not American and attempting to learn something from a nutjob I will point out that all of the confederate statues were erected in the Jim Crow era to daily remind former slaves that nothing had changed and they better mind their manners and know their place.  The flag is the battle flag of Virginia and is meant to do the same thing.

i am dutch... Rotterdam shows some scars, grandfather was a member of the resistance in the Netherlands during WW2, other grandparents (father and mother of my stephather) hided a jewish girl during WW2, i've been to Berlin,... hard to miss something happened...

 

when in the Netherlands you're send on a school trip to Amsterdam to visit a museum they also tell you about  the ugly part of history. (trading slaves/ colonies) and yes except for one all the statues are still there. the beatifull buildings in Amsterdam along the canals are build by people earning a lot of money in those times... should we tear down the buildings as well?

 

and before you ask... no i do not think people should fly the nazi flag.

 

someone flying a flag is different than a statue in my opinion. a statue remembers of a certain time and flying a flag is expressing a personal opinion.

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7 minutes ago, daan62 said:

i am dutch... Rotterdam shows some scars, grandfather was a member of the resistance in the Netherlands during WW2, other grandparents (father and mother of my stephather) hided a jewish girl during WW2, i've been to Berlin,... hard to miss something happened...

 

when in the Netherlands you're send on a school trip to Amsterdam to visit a museum they also tell you about  the ugly part of history. (trading slaves/ colonies) and yes except for one all the statues are still there. the beatifull buildings in Amsterdam along the canals are build by people earning a lot of money in those times... should we tear down the buildings as well?

 

and before you ask... no i do not think people should fly the nazi flag.

 

someone flying a flag is different than a statue in my opinion. a statue remembers of a certain time and flying a flag is expressing a personal opinion.

The statues being torn down are not in museums which would be acceptable, my idea is to put them at the graveyards of all the soldiers who died to preserve slavery. The statues were erected in prominent locations across the south as reminders of who is still the boss.  I doubt there are any statues of Nazis in town squares in Europe.  I don't think people should fly the Confederate battle flag, but free speech here allows that but also allows the consequences of same. Now if it's government property? Nope. If it's private property for instance Nascar locations then they have the right to allow or prohibit as it's their property.

edit: I am old enough to have grown up with segregation - my high school mascot was the Rebels and that flag was flown at every event. In the south the history taught was very subjective neglecting to focus on owning people being bad - the war was pretty much what our resident nutjob keeps spouting about heritage.  It was less than 2 weeks from HS to college that had integrated especially athletes and I sat next to a couple guys who played pro ball and one is in the Hall of Fame. I grew up quickly and my 2nd year proudly voted for and celebrated a black girl being the homecoming queen. Being ignorant was easily remedied for those of us who cared. 

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5 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

The statues being torn down are not in museums which would be acceptable, my idea is to put them at the graveyards of all the soldiers who died to preserve slavery. The statues were erected in prominent locations across the south as reminders of who is still the boss.  I doubt there are any statues of Nazis in town squares in Europe.  I don't think people should fly the Confederate battle flag, but free speech here allows that but also allows the consequences of same. Now if it's government property? Nope. If it's private property for instance Nascar locations then they have the right to allow or prohibit as it's their property.

in Amsterdam the statues are not in a museum either.

 

but are there also positive things connected to this flag? does it represent part of the country over a period of time in which also good thing happened or was it essentially 'just' a battle flag? (some people are apparantly very proud of it...)

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

 That (Confederate Battle) flag is an opportunity for Americans to protect our Constitution.

Stupid post of the month - maybe the year. 

The South was explicitly fighting against the US constitution. 

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29 minutes ago, daan62 said:

in Amsterdam the statues are not in a museum either.

 

but are there also positive things connected to this flag? does it represent part of the country over a period of time in which also good thing happened or was it essentially 'just' a battle flag? (some people are apparantly very proud of it...)

It’s possible that the pre-civil war Virginia army had some engagements while flying that flag. 

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3 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Stupid post of the month - maybe the year. 

The South was explicitly fighting against the US constitution. 

The flag of the USA was explicitly used by Nazis, Klan and Supremacists, so what's your point?

The Confederate battle flag represents hatred to some of the people who love it, and it represents pride and love to others. The USA flag represents hatred to some American racists and it represents pride and love to others.

When I see my state flag, I feel pride that it represents many major battles between labor unions in which my ancestors fought. I love my state flag. And others fly it because it represents something else to them. But you don't seem to understand this it is not 1860 anymore, it's 2020. And in 2020, even when a virulent racist flies that Confederate battle flag, that's should be a source of pride for everyone that we protect the right of people to have opinions that we find disgusting. Germany outlawed the Nazi flag, but the USA has not, it is allowed to be flown here under the First Amendment. And if The Constitution can protect a bunch of neo-fascists, then it can surely (hopefully) protect someone like me.

Until you are able to secure a functioning time machine, your attempts at change need to be concentrated in the present day.

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4 hours ago, daan62 said:

i am dutch... Rotterdam shows some scars, grandfather was a member of the resistance in the Netherlands during WW2, other grandparents (father and mother of my stephather) hided a jewish girl during WW2, i've been to Berlin,... hard to miss something happened...

 

when in the Netherlands you're send on a school trip to Amsterdam to visit a museum they also tell you about  the ugly part of history. (trading slaves/ colonies) and yes except for one all the statues are still there. the beatifull buildings in Amsterdam along the canals are build by people earning a lot of money in those times... should we tear down the buildings as well?

 

and before you ask... no i do not think people should fly the nazi flag.

 

someone flying a flag is different than a statue in my opinion. a statue remembers of a certain time and flying a flag is expressing a personal opinion.

Also, we can disconnect our current time from a statue, as you write, it's from a time and place in history.  But a flag is an active statement of NOW. To hold a flag, means that flag means something to you, now.

But still, our Constitutional protects the right for that American neo-Nazi to fly that swatstika flag. But I perceive a far bigger danger from the people who want to make thought uniform in this country, then from the handful of racist hate-mongerers. The latter is gradually going extinct. The former is gaining in numbers every year here.

In fact, just look at this thread, and the quote from the user "duh-ranger" who uses the term "nutjob" to describe someone who supports The First Amendment. If we held a vote on this right now, I've no doubt that the vast majority of this country would have no problem suspending the First Amendment for racists, neo-Nazis, and assorted people with whom they disagree. That's not the nature of the USA, it's the nature of humans.

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4 hours ago, daan62 said:

in Amsterdam the statues are not in a museum either.

 

but are there also positive things connected to this flag? does it represent part of the country over a period of time in which also good thing happened or was it essentially 'just' a battle flag? (some people are apparantly very proud of it...)

I lived in Alabama for about 8 years. I saw that flag used regularly by people who were just regular, run-of-the-mill football and barbecue lovers. I rarely saw the State flag of Alabama used on someone's truck, but the battle flag? Common. You want to know what's connected to the flag that's positive? The contemporary South is a wonderful place, that is in many ways far more integrated than anywhere else in the country .. maybe anywhere else in the world, from what I've seen. People sit down at communal tables to eat down there, and "Southern" food is the food of all colors, The churches are segregated beyond belief. The neighborhoods are nearly as segregated as they are in places like New York and Illinois, but the barbecues, the mudding events, the Mardis Gras, the football games, the crawfish boils, cultures mix in a way that I've never seen anywhere else.

That Confederate flag in 2020 represents a lifestyle to certain people for which they feel pride.  And they deserve to feel that pride. People all over the USA tend to shit all over the idea of intelligence and inclusion in the Southern States. But they do it out of ignorance, because Southerners have a lot to be proud, and some of them chose to use the Confederate battle flag to convey that pride.

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Mike, 

I'm pretty sure your poster child is from Oklahoma.  Not even a state until 1907 let alone a confederate state.  I expect at least 1000 words in reply.  

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22 hours ago, Ishmael said:

The cure for that is simple. Legalize cannabis.

It is in both states I live.   

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

The flag of the USA was explicitly used by Nazis, Klan and Supremacists, so what's your point?

The Confederate battle flag represents hatred to some of the people who love it, and it represents pride and love to others. The USA flag represents hatred to some American racists and it represents pride and love to others.

When I see my state flag, I feel pride that it represents many major battles between labor unions in which my ancestors fought. I love my state flag. And others fly it because it represents something else to them. But you don't seem to understand this it is not 1860 anymore, it's 2020. And in 2020, even when a virulent racist flies that Confederate battle flag, that's should be a source of pride for everyone that we protect the right of people to have opinions that we find disgusting. Germany outlawed the Nazi flag, but the USA has not, it is allowed to be flown here under the First Amendment. And if The Constitution can protect a bunch of neo-fascists, then it can surely (hopefully) protect someone like me.

Until you are able to secure a functioning time machine, your attempts at change need to be concentrated in the present day.

So if I said your state flag is offensive you stop flying it?

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6 hours ago, d'ranger said:

The statues being torn down are not in museums which would be acceptable, my idea is to put them at the graveyards of all the soldiers who died to preserve slavery. The statues were erected in prominent locations across the south as reminders of who is still the boss.  I doubt there are any statues of Nazis in town squares in Europe.  I don't think people should fly the Confederate battle flag, but free speech here allows that but also allows the consequences of same. Now if it's government property? Nope. If it's private property for instance Nascar locations then they have the right to allow or prohibit as it's their property.

edit: I am old enough to have grown up with segregation - my high school mascot was the Rebels and that flag was flown at every event. In the south the history taught was very subjective neglecting to focus on owning people being bad - the war was pretty much what our resident nutjob keeps spouting about heritage.  It was less than 2 weeks from HS to college that had integrated especially athletes and I sat next to a couple guys who played pro ball and one is in the Hall of Fame. I grew up quickly and my 2nd year proudly voted for and celebrated a black girl being the homecoming queen. Being ignorant was easily remedied for those of us who cared. 

You needed your high school teacher to tell you owning people was bad? 

We were taught civil war period history in high school.   I knew slavery was bad.  All the kids new it was bad.   

To infer NOT emphasizing that slavery was bad Is somehow racist is ridiculous.  That is manufactured outrage and disingenuous.

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8 hours ago, mikewof said:

By "sweeping thru" and "rampant" the current mortality rate of U.S. prisoners infected by SARS-CoV-2 is about 1.7%.

Obviously it would be better if that was 0%, but community-acquired infections like SARS-CoV-2, pneumonia, hepatitis hit prisoners hard.

Back in the 1990s, prisoners died from HIV AIDS in huge numbers. And over the decades they continue to die from drug addictions and overdoses.

So why am I not outraged? Because community acquired infections are part of life both inside prisons, office buildings, and herds of cattle. It's Mother Nature doing her thing. But enslaving our fellow Americans for the crime of poverty? We control that, it's our policy, it's our laws, it's our profit structures.

 

 

I do agree asylums should be re-instituted.  

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20 hours ago, mikewof said:

Legal tobacco, legal oxy from the pharmacy. Legal American flag.

Illegal oxy from the street dealer, illegal Confederate battle flag.

A pattern emerges ...

Good point.

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On 6/25/2020 at 5:05 PM, mikewof said:

I'm trying to follow your logic here ...

So since there are differences in the way someone is enslaved in 2020 versus say, 1820, the person in 2020 isn't actually a slave? This is the logic you use to sleep at night for your compliance in enslaving your fellow Americans?

There are ways when it was worse to be a slave in 1820, and there are ways when it's worse to be a slave in 2020. But you've clearly stated here that you believe that someone like this, isn't actually enslaved ... History isn't going to side with you on this one, Mark. And there is one overwhelming difference between slavery in 1820 versus 2020 ... back then, it was private individuals who enslaved people. But now, it's you, me and all the other citizens of the USA who are enslaving our fellow Americans.

 

I said you would have great difficulty in comprehending this, Fluffy. 

 tumblr_nzayjwN5qr1u0oyldo1_500.jpg

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6 hours ago, d'ranger said:

So why hasn't anyone forgotten about Hitler? Where was the outrage when the statues of Saddam Hussein were torn down (the same folks whining about confederate statues are the same who cheered that).  Since you are not American and attempting to learn something from a nutjob I will point out that all of the confederate statues were erected in the Jim Crow era to daily remind former slaves that nothing had changed and they better mind their manners and know their place.  The flag is the battle flag of Virginia and is meant to do the same thing.

My oldest daughter graduated from high school two years ago in Illinois.  She was not thought anything about WW1 or WW2 period history.  Did not know what Nazi’s nor Hitler were.  So, I hate to tell you -  they will be forgotten sooner than you think.   
 

the Obama era progressive education system has completely changed things.  It appears much dimmed down -  no child left behind.

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9 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

My oldest daughter graduated from high school two years ago in Illinois.  She was not thought anything about WW1 or WW2 period history.  Did not know what Nazi’s nor Hitler were.  So, I hate to tell you -  they will be forgotten sooner than you think.   
 

the Obama era progressive education system has completely changed things.  It appears much dimmed down -  no child left behind.

She may have pretended to be ignorant. Didn't want to discuss the topic with you.  

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34 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

So if I said your state flag is offensive you stop flying it?

Never said the Confed flag should be illegal. Fly it. It helps us identify the racists.

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15 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

My oldest daughter graduated from high school two years ago in Illinois.  She was not thought anything about WW1 or WW2 period history.  Did not know what Nazi’s nor Hitler were.  So, I hate to tell you -  they will be forgotten sooner than you think.   
 

the Obama era progressive education system has completely changed things.  It appears much dimmed down -  no child left behind.

Home schooling failed her I see.

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13 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

My oldest daughter graduated from high school two years ago in Illinois.  She was not thought anything about WW1 or WW2 period history.  Did not know what Nazi’s nor Hitler were.  So, I hate to tell you -  they will be forgotten sooner than you think.   
 

the Obama era progressive education system has completely changed things.  It appears much dimmed down -  no child left behind.

Not thought?  Does she share your attention to detail.  And it should have been Nazis, why the apostrophe?   But welcome to my sin bin for that one.  

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2 hours ago, Rok Dog said:

My oldest daughter graduated from high school two years ago in Illinois.  She was not thought anything about WW1 or WW2 period history.  Did not know what Nazi’s nor Hitler were.  So, I hate to tell you -  they will be forgotten sooner than you think.   
the Obama era progressive education system has completely changed things.  It appears much dimmed down -  no child left behind.

Not your best effort. US high school history has been bad for a long time - too many war-loving football coaches teaching it. 

My kids were lucky to have a special teacher who really made an effort to teach the truth, warts and all, and make it interesting. 

I was self-absorbed and clueless at that age so take it easy on the young lady. 

And actually, you yourself do not seem to know much about US history either. 

For example, in BOTH WWI and WWII the US let its allies bleed for years before entering . .  

in each case, how long? 

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4 hours ago, Rok Dog said:

My oldest daughter graduated from high school two years ago in Illinois.  She was not thought anything about WW1 or WW2 period history.  Did not know what Nazi’s nor Hitler were.  So, I hate to tell you -  they will be forgotten sooner than you think.   
 

the Obama era progressive education system has completely changed things.  It appears much dimmed down -  no child left behind.

Schools teach the basics, parents have to teach the kids to be curious about the rest. In some ways it's easier than ever ... text your kids a link to YouTube history videos, they'll deny it, but they'll watch them.

And just for the record, the No Every Child Left Behind Act wasn't from the Obama Admin, it was from Bush Jr..

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4 hours ago, Rok Dog said:

You needed your high school teacher to tell you owning people was bad? 

We were taught civil war period history in high school.   I knew slavery was bad.  All the kids new it was bad.   

To infer NOT emphasizing that slavery was bad Is somehow racist is ridiculous.  That is manufactured outrage and disingenuous.

Is English your first language? Did I ever say what you are writing? My comments were on the attitudes of the time including the flag and Rebels being an appropriate mascot. That post may not have been the most eloquent of my thoughts but can't find anything that relates to slavery being good or acceptable.   I can see why your daughter doesn't bother to share much with you.  And from your 2nd reply it seems my era of schooling was a failure along with the Obama era. It seems clear to me that whatever era you were in school was an abysmal failure.

In an weird tradition it seems that every poster here who has Dog in their ID is a clueless or disingenuous asshole. 

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4 hours ago, Rok Dog said:

So if I said your state flag is offensive you stop flying it?

Nope. I would fly it because I'm proud of what it means to me. 

A couple weeks ago, I saw my state flag flying from the back of a pickup truck, I got the feeling of what some Southerners must feel when outsiders tell them what to feel about their flags.

I'm proud that our Constitution protects the rights of a racist, hate-filled American to fly a Nazi flag, and that same flag isn't even legal to display in Germany.

I get why Germany would ban it, but I think that it says a lot about the power of our Constitution that we protect the rights of fascist, racist, neo-nazi boneheads.

Protect the rights of a few hundred neo-fascists flags, and we protect the rights of ten million BLM flags.

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