Sailbydate

What custom cruiser...if money were no object?

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3 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Yes but where is the fun in that ? Part of the thrill of cruising is the travelling bit and to see a land "grow" before you get there.

A good point Pano. So how about you and 2 Legs come up with the perfect cruising boat for the West of Ireland.

And a completely different one to get you there...

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On 6/13/2020 at 1:03 PM, El Boracho said:

The worst possible addition to a cruise is professional crew. However quite handy for maintenance. Consider a very pleasant cruising sailboat for you and your several friends, with all the toys you desire. And then a second maintenance ship to follow along that the crew can live on and do whatever annoying things they do. It could have the helipad, freezers, fuel, scuba shop, too...

or just keep chartering in lovely places and get all this? that doesn't sound so bad.

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1 hour ago, freewheelin said:
On 6/13/2020 at 1:03 PM, El Boracho said:

The worst possible addition to a cruise is professional crew. However quite handy for maintenance. Consider a very pleasant cruising sailboat for you and your several friends, with all the toys you desire. And then a second maintenance ship to follow along that the crew can live on and do whatever annoying things they do. It could have the helipad, freezers, fuel, scuba shop, too...

or just keep chartering in lovely places and get all this? that doesn't sound so bad.

Chartering isn't bad, especially if you're going to fly there by private jet. But invariably the choice of boats is not -exactly- what you'd want, nor is the commissioning, and there's usually something broken.

A maintenance vessel to follow you around sounds like a GREAT idea to me, how about one with a floodable well deck to do haul-outs any time you feel the need? And of course a riggers and sailmakers shop, as well as mech/electr stuff.

Phil Bolger once sketched out a small "cruising carrier" intended to work like a trawler (the cruising kind, not the fishing kind) but with a big flat deck and a couple of cranes to hold Sunfish and RIBs or whatever other small craft one fancied to play about the anchorage with. That would be fun but not expensive enough for this thread.

FB- Doug

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I'd go for something like a 12.5 Pogo but made out of aluminum to cope with the inevitable bumps. I would have lifting rudders too.

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I prefer tris in general so my ideal boat right now seems like it would be something between a Rapido and a Neel tri... 
What I would think would happen if Gunboat made a tri!

Take the Rapido 60 and flare out the cabin a lot more (width to length ratio similar to an F-24), wouldn't slow it down that much would provide a lot more enclosed volume!

You said budget was not an issue right!

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3 hours ago, Black Sox said:

A good point Pano. So how about you and 2 Legs come up with the perfect cruising boat for the West of Ireland.

And a completely different one to get you there...

Sox, if I am first with the unlimited €€€€€s, I will procure one of those French monster trimarans to convey Monsieur Pano to Crookhaven.  That will bring him by sail, rather than in a flying aluminium tube, and the journey from Brittany should take about 27 minutes.  Then, after a day or two of drinking O'Sullivan's bar dry, Pano can set off around Mizen to start the west coast.

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4 minutes ago, Airwick said:
What I would think would happen if Gunboat made a tri!

It would come out overweight, over budget, and not quite as fast as you’d hoped.

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57 minutes ago, cianclarke said:

Finot FC3 is the correct answer

Cian, the Finot FC3 is a stunning boat.    It's as if someone said the Pogo 50 was was perfection, and Pascal Conq replied "hold my beer".

But it wouldn't be my choice unless i got an ocean-crossing bug.  Too big for coast-hopping, and too much sail to handle with more crew than I'd want.

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2 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Sox, if I am first with the unlimited €€€€€s, I will procure one of those French monster trimarans to convey Monsieur Pano to Crookhaven.  That will bring him by sail, rather than in a flying aluminium tube, and the journey from Brittany should take about 27 minutes.  Then, after a day or two of drinking O'Sullivan's bar dry, Pano can set off around Mizen to start the west coast.

I like this idea! Don't forget to play at Euromillions!

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56 minutes ago, Airwick said:

I prefer tris in general so my ideal boat right now seems like it would be something between a Rapido and a Neel tri... 
What I would think would happen if Gunboat made a tri!

Take the Rapido 60 and flare out the cabin a lot more (width to length ratio similar to an F-24), wouldn't slow it down that much would provide a lot more enclosed volume!

You said budget was not an issue right!

270E3582-D649-46EA-8D50-2040BB78448F.thumb.png.0ec453abb3934294335fa22b74374c7b.png

 

https://www.aeroyacht.com/listings/53-mcconaghy-tri-finn/

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33 minutes ago, fufkin said:

That's got arguably even less accommodation than the Rapido! Sweet boat though but a bit cramped for long term cruising, also it's a dark tube inside (monohul style), I really don't like the idea of cruising somewhere and not being to enjoy from "indoors"! At least the Rapido galley and dining area has nice visibility outside.

Looking for something more comfy if we are talking about cruising

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55 minutes ago, Airwick said:

That's got arguably even less accommodation than the Rapido! Sweet boat though but a bit cramped for long term cruising, also it's a dark tube inside (monohul style), I really don't like the idea of cruising somewhere and not being to enjoy from "indoors"! At least the Rapido galley and dining area has nice visibility outside.

Looking for something more comfy if we are talking about cruising

Agreed. I was responding more to your ‘If Gunboat built a tri’. The owner formerly owned a GB62, wanted a downsized tri, and in collaboration w P Johnstone and Pete Melvin, this is the concept he brought to fruition. Not for everyone, but I’d certainly be willing to pack light and give this one a go.

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I'd have my son design something for me, probably similar to the boat he did for his thesis at Southampton Solent - a 47' fast cruiser designed for a couple for bluewater cruising.

image.png.b068bc3713300dad8c90118cf1bcb5f2.png

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Cian, the Finot FC3 is a stunning boat.    It's as if someone said the Pogo 50 was was perfection, and Pascal Conq replied "hold my beer".

But it wouldn't be my choice unless i got an ocean-crossing bug.  Too big for coast-hopping, and too much sail to handle with more crew than I'd want.

Very true - but there are 53', 61', and 100' boats all called FC3. I'm sure if we asked nicely they'd do a run of 40'ers? :D

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1724175370_MichelinMan.thumb.jpg.72bb03cb437c3b33a43a1e3705a131ac.jpg

@cianclarke, even in  a shorter length, they are still too beamy for my purposes. Some of the finest sailing I have ever done has been beating into those long Atlantic rollers.  I reckon the joy would be greater in a slimmer boat, rather than a downwind flyer which tries to emulate the Michelin Man 

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54 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I'd have my son design something for me, probably similar to the boat he did for his thesis at Southampton Solent - a 47' fast cruiser designed for a couple for bluewater cruising.

image.png.b068bc3713300dad8c90118cf1bcb5f2.png

BJ, would you keep the coachroof-ate-the-side-decks concept?

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20 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

BJ, would you keep the coachroof-ate-the-side-decks concept?

Maybe. It does give some more headroom down below, which helps as it's not the widest boat out there.

I really like the concept of this boat (I read the 100+ page report on it but Will isn't allowed to share it) but there are some things we'd rework. One of the driving forces to this design which would not exist if we were building it is a professor looking to push the boundaries of design. But there are some great functional ideas in this boat and it looks fun to sail.

Heck, two years later with more time he's still thinking about the design and making changes in his mind.

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Dreaming... right?  Well... a Baltic....  this one looks nice.. CANOVA: 20190816_esk_0915_1.jpg

DSS foil, electric motor, rechargable , battery banks.. the only thing missing.. is a moon pool to allow for diving..... but... Looks nice...

 

CANOVA ecological... but nice ideas.....  and enough room.... but.. did this dream also allow for the maintenance of this dream?

 

 

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20 minutes ago, h20man said:

Dreaming... right?  Well... a Baltic....  this one looks nice.. CANOVA

DSS foil, electric motor, rechargable , battery banks.. the only thing missing.. is a moon pool to allow for diving..... but... Looks nice...

 CANOVA ecological... but nice ideas.....  and enough room.... but.. did this dream also allow for the maintenance of this dream?

Canova looks tasty and clever.  I am curious about DSS foils; in theory they sound a real breakthrough for a cruising boat.  But only examples I have seen have been on quite large boats.  Does anyone know if they have been tried on sub-50' boats? 

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Canova looks tasty and clever.  I am curious about DSS foils; in theory they sound a real breakthrough for a cruising boat.  But only examples I have seen have been on quite large boats.  Does anyone know if they have been tried on sub-50' boats? 

DSS? Check out www.infinityyachts.com for the marketing hype. 

https://infinitiyachts.com/infiniti-46/

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2 hours ago, h20man said:

Dreaming... right?  Well... a Baltic....  this one looks nice.. CANOVA: 20190816_esk_0915_1.jpg

DSS foil, electric motor, rechargable , battery banks.. the only thing missing.. is a moon pool to allow for diving..... but... Looks nice...

 

CANOVA ecological... but nice ideas.....  and enough room.... but.. did this dream also allow for the maintenance of this dream?

 

 

The yearly tip requirement just to keep the same engineer onboard, is probably more than my most expensive boat:lol:...wait,:(

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Just now, TwoLegged said:

Any thoughts beyond the hype, Sailby?

Yeah. Not sure about the whole DSS thing, to be honest, 2Legged. The concept has been around for a long time now - certainly as long as Dali foils, but it hasn't really gained any traction. There are two issues, IMO. Weight, because these things, along with casings and controls are heavy, so they haven't really been successful in retro-fit situations. The other issue is drag. I think maybe the AoA for DSS foils is completely fucked up and so the foils never really provide enough lift, to overcome their attendant drag. But what the fuck would I know, right?

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here is real world feedback on a sub 50 dss racing design(edit same boat as above (Hugh Welborne). 

 

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I've actually been there and done that. First of all, $1M will not be enough. Perhaps not nearly enough depending on how particular you are. Of course everyone's answer will be a bit different, this was mine:

iE1ciO6.jpg

 

25WC2kQ.jpg

On 6/13/2020 at 1:46 PM, TheDragon said:

I wonder if any of the Perry carbon cutters has actually been used by the owner yet.

Yes.

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21 minutes ago, fufkin said:

here is real world feedback on a sub 50 dss racing design(edit same boat as above (Hugh Welborne). 

 

Nah. I'm still not buying the hype, Fufkin. When I look at that whale's dick sticking out the forequarter and pretty much churning through the bow wave, I'm not seeing a whole lot of lift going on. Lots of drag though. How does this thing go compared to TP52's, just out of interest?

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46 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Nah. I'm still not buying the hype, Fufkin. When I look at that whale's dick sticking out the forequarter and pretty much churning through the bow wave, I'm not seeing a whole lot of lift going on. Lots of drag though. How does this thing go compared to TP52's, just out of interest?

Sailbydate, I completely understand the skepticism, and especially in a cruising application where the foils could in many cases be more trouble than they're worth, but I still think this is a really interesting area of development with potential in a pretty narrow performance cruising/custom cruising sector of the market. If you look at the open 60s that are using DSS, somehow it seems to give these flat pancakes a smoother ride into the chop upwind than without. It's a narrow groove but its there for the taking, and the added lift seems to help the ride. 

I had a Nacra olympic coach explain it in a way that kind of made sense, at least to me, the question of drag vs lift with foils. It was regarding the imminent delivery of a high end custom cat where the owner had changed their minds over the shape of the foils late in the game. I asked him why the hell the owner would bother with the mod to the foil, the cat's never gonna lift up and fully foil anyway...his answer was that its not about that...but that the 'marginal' lift the foil gives you allows you to push it that much further w/o fear of submerging the leeward pontoon. 

With monohulls, its similar in that you can push it, with bigger rigs and more aggressive trimming because you've been given more righting moment from the foil assist. DSS will never get the boat out of the water, so that particular drag equation is out the window. What's there, are variable drag/lift combos to aggressively trim the boat that aren't possible on just a keel or canting keel scenario. 

I do find it interesting that DSS makes it on to that Baltic design above. Maybe things are at a point with composite structures that adjustable daggerboards on such a large scale are viable these days where maybe they weren't 20/30 years ago? I dunno. 

It'll be interesting to see if in fact this tech trickles down. I won't hold my breath either. Still waiting for the hard dodgers of the 80s round the world racers to become standard issue. 

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57 minutes ago, DDW said:

I've actually been there and done that. First of all, $1M will not be enough. Perhaps not nearly enough depending on how particular you are. Of course everyone's answer will be a bit different, this was mine:

iE1ciO6.jpg

 

25WC2kQ.jpg

Yes.

Nice! Give some details! 

 

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1 hour ago, fufkin said:

Sailbydate, I completely understand the skepticism, and especially in a cruising application where the foils could in many cases be more trouble than they're worth, but I still think this is a really interesting area of development with potential in a pretty narrow performance cruising/custom cruising sector of the market. If you look at the open 60s that are using DSS, somehow it seems to give these flat pancakes a smoother ride into the chop upwind than without. It's a narrow groove but its there for the taking, and the added lift seems to help the ride. 

I had a Nacra olympic coach explain it in a way that kind of made sense, at least to me, the question of drag vs lift with foils. It was regarding the imminent delivery of a high end custom cat where the owner had changed their minds over the shape of the foils late in the game. I asked him why the hell the owner would bother with the mod to the foil, the cat's never gonna lift up and fully foil anyway...his answer was that its not about that...but that the 'marginal' lift the foil gives you allows you to push it that much further w/o fear of submerging the leeward pontoon. 

With monohulls, its similar in that you can push it, with bigger rigs and more aggressive trimming because you've been given more righting moment from the foil assist. DSS will never get the boat out of the water, so that particular drag equation is out the window. What's there, are variable drag/lift combos to aggressively trim the boat that aren't possible on just a keel or canting keel scenario. 

I do find it interesting that DSS makes it on to that Baltic design above. Maybe things are at a points with composite structures that adjustable daggerboards on such a large scale are viable these days where maybe they weren't 20/30 years ago? I dunno. 

It'll be interesting to see if in fact this tech trickles down. I won't hold my breath either. Still waiting for the hard dodgers of the 80s round the world racers to become standard issue. 

Fufkin. I think we need to draw a clear distinction between DSS and IMOCA60-type Dali foils. There's no dispute (confirmation from several designers and clearly backed up by race results) that the Dali foils have added 20%+ in speed performance on certain point of sail (upwind excluded) over those without them.

Over in the IMOCA60, thread there's an image and discussion of APIVIA doing 29 knot in 17 knots TWS. Can DSS equipped boats claim that sort of success, I wonder?

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Posted (edited)

Intriguing looking cat-rigged yawl, DDW. Would you like to share some details about her vitals?

Curious about the sprit. Do you fly an asymm?

iE1ciO6.jpg

Edited by Sailbydate
Pic

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1 hour ago, plenamar said:

Nice! Give some details! 

 

I've written about it a fair bit in these pages, anything in particular you want to know? Hull designed by Mark Ellis, rig by me in collaboration with NA, spar maker, and sailmaker, all the details and custom fittings worked out and made by me. Built by Jim Betts (hull and structure) and Mark Bruckmann (interior and finish). Bagged epoxy/glass over Corecell, with a sprinkling of carbon here and there. Rig is all carbon. Other than the rig, fairly conventional except for the ever popular dinghy garage of my own design:

Started with a blank sheet and an open mind (with 3 decades of thought), had to open the checkbook wider than I thought possible. But I've been happy with it overall. My advice from the experience is: Just Don't. Custom boats like this are a financial disaster, and take a lot of time to execute, which could have been spent cruising. I'm glad I did it but if I hit reset I'd probably not do it again. 

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16 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Intriguing looking cat-rigged yawl, DDW. Would you like to share some details about her vitals?

Curious about the sprit. Do you fly an asymm?

 

She is 45' OD, about 43 or 44 LWL, 29,000 designed displacement (but I've got it loaded to maybe 32,000 with 'stuff'), moderate fin and spade. Rotating main is 96 sq m, mizzen 23 sq m. Asym is about 105 sq m. Mizzen staysail 28 sq m. Hard to fly it all but the asym is good under certain conditions. Because the main mast rotates, the main is very efficient on or off the wind. So the asym works best at about 165 TWA in 6 - 10 knots or so, which gives us an AWA of about 65 deg. The sprit is used for two other things: to rig a preventer for the main, and to hold a mooring ball off the bow, both very useful sometimes.

u2nr2bQ.jpg

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On 6/14/2020 at 7:18 PM, Panoramix said:

5db1be7da4237-70393-1.jpg

If I had unlimited funds for a cruising boat that would be a bluewater one and I would get somebody to design for me an updated version of the nice Tanton Ketch bastardized with the RM, that would be :

  • cat ketch (may be with "matin bleu" style wingsails), I don't want furlers, I want sails to fall on deck when I release the halyard and want a self tacking rig that is fairly efficient on all point of sail.
  • Enough sail area so that she starts moving in 5 knots of wind on all points except DDW
  • some kind of deck saloon or small pilot house so that I can keep watch from inside when it's cold and miserable
  • a big tiller with an extension outside so that I can spend hours playing with wind and waves when the weather is nice.
  • modern RM style twin keel so that draft isn't too much of a hindrance in tidal areas.
  • 10 tons light displacement max. that's probably 40/45 feet
  • Moderate beam (to modern standards), lot of volume in the bow, flattish hull.
  • Windvane + wind generator ( I just like wind operated stuff)
  • Definitely no professional crew because I find operating boats easier than managing people.
  • No diesel engines because I am hopeless with engines and they stink.
  • As simple as possible electrics I can understand. (I seem to be better at this than at thermic engines)
  • electric auxiliary propulsion that becomes generation while under way. 40Nm range @3/4 knots is good enough (Yes That's how much I dislike diesel engines and like sailing!)
  • If the electric motor(s) could be mounted on rudder(s) that pop up (hobie cat 16 / IMOCA 60 style) when you hit something, that would be a big plus (manoeuvrability + ease of maintenance / inspection / removal of crap wrapped around ) !
  • Some redundancy that doesn't imply doubling everything (stuff that has dual purposes or one big thing replaced by 2 smaller ones)
  • Designed using the same parts as often as possible (land-rover style!).
  • If for some reason systems are down, boat can be operated like a 30 footer (that is tiller between legs and sheets on winches).
  • Designed for 2 to 4 people but can sleep occasionally 8 (navy style bunks OK) so that I can invite mates.
  • Easy access to the sea.
  • "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." (St Exupéry)

Yes, I know that would cost money I don't have....

Yes, something like this - like I said to Y-M Tanton, something like a Norwalk island Sharpie 26, but twice the size, carbon rigs (maybe wishbone booms), use the extra length to incorporate a flush deck with deck saloon. Keep the flat bottom and retractable foils. Build in alu, and update the hull shape, maybe even a dinghy garage.

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4 hours ago, DDW said:

I've actually been there and done that. First of all, $1M will not be enough. Perhaps not nearly enough depending on how particular you are. Of course everyone's answer will be a bit different, this was mine:

iE1ciO6.jpg

 

25WC2kQ.jpg

Yes.

Now we're talking.

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I liked Anomaly back then, I like her now, especially that you didn't go all Freedomy on the rig, but that there is one mainsail and one rather balancing mizzen.

Here is one concept that I also liked, from Woodenboats Sketches, don't know if it ever made it to the next stage, if anyone has more infos...

Don't want to turn this into a catketch thread, though.

@DDW, in retrospect, in your view, what would the next best prosuction contender be that you would chose today?

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31 minutes ago, Matagi said:

 

@DDW, in retrospect, in your view, what would the next best prosuction contender be that you would chose today?

Talk about thread drift....

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44 minutes ago, Matagi said:

I liked Anomaly back then, I like her now, especially that you didn't go all Freedomy on the rig, but that there is one mainsail and one rather balancing mizzen.

Here is one concept that I also liked, from Woodenboats Sketches, don't know if it ever made it to the next stage, if anyone has more infos...

Don't want to turn this into a catketch thread, though.

@DDW, in retrospect, in your view, what would the next best prosuction contender be that you would chose today?

I know money is no object but practicality is.

Deep draught crap cockpit no weather cover dodger nor bimini squeezy fore deck anchor tackle operation aft mast stabbing the saloon access and a bowsprit to add to marina costs.

Apart from that looks a cracker sailer.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Fufkin. I think we need to draw a clear distinction between DSS and IMOCA60-type Dali foils. There's no dispute (confirmation from several designers and clearly backed up by race results) that the Dali foils have added 20%+ in speed performance on certain point of sail (upwind excluded) over those without them.

Over in the IMOCA60, thread there's an image and discussion of APIVIA doing 29 knot in 17 knots TWS. Can DSS equipped boats claim that sort of success, I wonder?

You have to remember that the dali foils are designed with compromise to a rule. Due to a limit on the number of foils, the Dalis have to resist leeway as well as provide lift. Last race (arguably) the fastest IMOCA was Hugo Boss, which gave higher priority to the flatter (lift giving) section of the foil, at the expense of leeway prevention.... what were we talking about... cruising boats? ;) 

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13 minutes ago, ALL@SEA said:

You have to remember that the dali foils are designed with compromise to a rule. Due to a limit on the number of foils, the Dalis have to resist leeway as well as provide lift. Last race (arguably) the fastest IMOCA was Hugo Boss, which gave higher priority to the flatter (lift giving) section of the foil, at the expense of leeway prevention.... what were we talking about... cruising boats? ;) 

You make a reasonable point. Maverick has a canard to counter her leeway. So that's 6 appendages. That's draggy.

In the absence of any supporting evidence to the contrary, DSS is still just marketing hype, IMO.

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One of my favorite cruising concepts is the David Thomas-designed Red Fox 20: a nearly flat-bottomed, twin-rudder, twin daggerboard  cruiser which sails remarkably well.  The daggerboards are profiled and toed in, so the generate significant lift.

The flat hull makes these boats unpleasant in a chop, but for estuary use they are brilliant: spacious, fast and float in nearly nothing.

I think that the twin daggerboard approach has great potential for the sort of fast coast cruiser I have in mind,.  If paired with some sort of movable ballast, it should be possible to avoid the flat bottom, and have  a more conventional cross-section which is still capable of drying out.   The W1DA has too many failings to be viable, but it manages an appendage-free bottom, and goes a long way down the path I would want to follow
 

 

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10 hours ago, DDW said:

I've actually been there and done that. First of all, $1M will not be enough. Perhaps not nearly enough depending on how particular you are. Of course everyone's answer will be a bit different, this was mine:

iE1ciO6.jpg

@DDW, from all I have read, Anomaly is very special boat.  Heavier and deeper draught than I'd want, but a very impressive exercise in thinking outside the box.

I know you said that given your time again, you might conclude that the custom path was not worth the cost and hassle ... but setting that aside, if you had a second custom bite at the same use case, would you do much differently?

 

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10 hours ago, DDW said:

I've actually been there and done that. First of all, $1M will not be enough. Perhaps not nearly enough depending on how particular you are. Of course everyone's answer will be a bit different, this was mine:

iE1ciO6.jpg

 

25WC2kQ.jpg

Yes.

Looks nice - Curious why you didn't do a full wishboom vs. the compression type vang?

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Being serious now an putting aside nuclear power for the moment, I don't want a boat, I want a FLEET. I want to be able to handle any of them myself if need be. I knew a guy who singlehanded a 90 foot sloop, so that requirement leaves a lot of choices.

To run to Annapolis, do RC work, and general transportation: A Dyer 29

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Home - this boat doesn't have to move all that often, but she needs space and comfort: A Florida Bay Coaster

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A Deerfoot or similar for sailing other than daysailing.

1988-deerfoot-price-reduced--1.jpg&f=1&n

Maybe a Saga 48

saga-48ft_2004_saga_48.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

 

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8 hours ago, DDW said:

She is 45' OD, about 43 or 44 LWL, 29,000 designed displacement (but I've got it loaded to maybe 32,000 with 'stuff'), moderate fin and spade. Rotating main is 96 sq m, mizzen 23 sq m. Asym is about 105 sq m. Mizzen staysail 28 sq m. Hard to fly it all but the asym is good under certain conditions. Because the main mast rotates, the main is very efficient on or off the wind. So the asym works best at about 165 TWA in 6 - 10 knots or so, which gives us an AWA of about 65 deg. The sprit is used for two other things: to rig a preventer for the main, and to hold a mooring ball off the bow, both very useful sometimes.

u2nr2bQ.jpg

That Escher asym just rocks. 

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7 hours ago, Matagi said:

I @DDW, in retrospect, in your view, what would the next best prosuction contender be that you would chose today?

The cat yawl rig has worked very well, and nothing like it has ever been produced that I am aware of. The rig is the reason I went custom. Also I enjoyed the experiment. If you could live with a sloop, there are many choices. As I age, I might lean more towards one of the cat ketches, as the sails are smaller and easier to deal with, even if the performance is off. The cat yawl goes to weather like a sloop or una rig, but you can still control the boat under sail in all conditions - it will heave to, back down, etc. 

2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

@DDW, from all I have read, Anomaly is very special boat.  Heavier and deeper draught than I'd want, but a very impressive exercise in thinking outside the box.

I know you said that given your time again, you might conclude that the custom path was not worth the cost and hassle ... but setting that aside, if you had a second custom bite at the same use case, would you do much differently?

 

T.L., I think about that sometimes. I was obsessed with making it light and in the end didn't really accomplish that. It came down to "what do you want to leave behind to save weight?" and the answer was nothing - and then some. I'd go a bit smaller as we don't really need the guest stateroom. I'd still try to lighten up as I could make the rig smaller. To me, as small a boat as I can be comfortable in is the right one. The dinghy garage has been spectacular and I would not want to give it up in a cruising boat. I'd probably harden the dodger as we rarely fold it down on the deck, then it could be extended to provide more protection. I'd eliminate the teak caprail and eyebrow as they constitute about 70% of the boat maintenance. The boat has been very successful at everything we've done with her. The second time around I could build it for less as the guesswork and experimentation is gone, but high quality, light, and custom is still going to be costly. 

2 hours ago, bgytr said:

Looks nice - Curious why you didn't do a full wishboom vs. the compression type vang?

A wishbone has issues in a large offshore sail: Hard to get enough leach tension in a square head, that vang is spec'd at 13,000 lbs.  In reefs there is an uncontrolled bunt of sail hanging below the wishbone. If I did it again, I'd have the boom raked up like the open 60s do, as it would get the sailstack much lower when the sail is furled. I drew it that way, but the NA thought it looked goofy, also it makes crossing the deck under the boom nearly impossible. I would make the mizzen a wishbone rig. 

52 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

That Escher asym just rocks. 

We say "inspired by Escher" in order not to upset the copyright holder :). 

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Yes, you can spend 1 Million dollars but, when designed for only a couple, simplicity and ease to handle is the way to save tons of money.

Millennium Falcon 50'. Caphorn, Patagonia 32000 miles at sea.

terreplein.jpg

965-OTW-MH21-15.jpg

965SAILDW-MH21-15.jpg

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23 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

... a small "cruising carrier" intended to work like a trawler (the cruising kind, not the fishing kind) but with a big flat deck and a couple of cranes to hold Sunfish and RIBs or whatever other small craft one fancied to play about the anchorage with. That would be fun but not expensive enough for this thread.

FB- Doug

Oh, it can get pretty expensive! Toy decks & hoists are an included feature in most Nordhavn designs:

7267898_20200220090703302_1_XLARGE.jpg?t

nordhavn-52-630x446.jpg

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1 hour ago, Diarmuid said:

Oh, it can get pretty expensive! Toy decks & hoists are an included feature in most Nordhavn designs:

7267898_20200220090703302_1_XLARGE.jpg?t

nordhavn-52-630x446.jpg

Nice, sure... but look at the premise of the thread. If you were fixed so that you didn't even have to care how many commas were on the check, much less how many zeroes, couldn't you burn a little more of it than this?

Conversely, I have an attraction to small, relatively modest, but exquisite things. Like the Hinckley 26 footer (can't remember name), only more Herreshof-y and with more carbon fiber. How about nice 45-ish ft classic 1920s style commuter, only with a gas turbine engine and a concealed step hull that can go 70+ knots?

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, DDW said:

......

A wishbone has issues in a large offshore sail: Hard to get enough leach tension in a square head, that vang is spec'd at 13,000 lbs.  In reefs there is an uncontrolled bunt of sail hanging below the wishbone. If I did it again, I'd have the boom raked up like the open 60s do, as it would get the sailstack much lower when the sail is furled. I drew it that way, but the NA thought it looked goofy, also it makes crossing the deck under the boom nearly impossible. I would make the mizzen a wishbone rig. 

...

Ya I can see the sail bunch at the foot of a wishboom during reefing being an issue if you're in rough stuff with water washing over the deck- didn't think about that.  You could get leech tension though with a control line from the clew to the tack, but that could be a nuisance too.

The low gooseneck makes sense too as it keeps the loads on the mast more sensible.

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26 minutes ago, bgytr said:

Ya I can see the sail bunch at the foot of a wishboom during reefing being an issue if you're in rough stuff with water washing over the deck- didn't think about that.  You could get leech tension though with a control line from the clew to the tack, but that could be a nuisance too.

The low gooseneck makes sense too as it keeps the loads on the mast more sensible.

I have seen various implementations of low gooseneck which keep the gooseneck right off the mast. That probably isn't viable with a rotating mast, but for a conventional stayed mast it seems to me  to be a vastly better way of dealing with the loads and reducing the chances of rig loss from a crash gybe. 

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If I can't sail it by myself without a huge mess of power-this and power-that, then I'm not really interested.  Now I'm sixty-*mumble* years old, and when I'm seventy-something, I might change that tune.

 

If I can't motor out of the marina, turn into the wind, raise the mainsail, roll out the jib and go sailing, by myself then...*meh*. If I can't have the missus along, the two-times-per-year that she'll go, and have her be comfortable and NOT have to actually DO anything but look around and enjoy the day, then there's no point. I find that I enjoy the SSS's cruise-ins and the best part of it is just hanging out in someone's cockpit, or down below, so enough furniture to host 6 people in the cabin would be nice....but they aren't sleeping there.  It'll be a miracle if I ever get the Mrs. to sleep on the boat again, but having the option would be nice.

 

I think I'll add some sort of self-taking jib to that list.  I'll steer and work the mainsheet and traveler. That's enough fun.

 

My whole sailing life has been spent on 20-30 footers, 32 seems palatial to me.

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3 hours ago, bgytr said:

Ya I can see the sail bunch at the foot of a wishboom during reefing being an issue if you're in rough stuff with water washing over the deck- didn't think about that.  You could get leech tension though with a control line from the clew to the tack, but that could be a nuisance too.

The low gooseneck makes sense too as it keeps the loads on the mast more sensible.

As the reefs get deeper, the reefed clew moves forward and up the wishbone. That leaves the bunt of lazy sail in the lazyjacks, and several feet of loosely controlled cloth above that to the reefed foot. Less of a problem with a square head (which has a more vertical leach) but still a problem on deep reefs. This problem contributed to the abandonment of 3 wishbone rigged boats that I know of. The bunt of sail filled with water and ripped the sail track off, leading to a cascade of problems. 

A vang line will control twist, but puts lots of compression in the curved wishbone, not the best structure to deal with it. In contrast the pusher vang actually pulls out on the gooseneck and due to its advantageous angle, reduces stress on everything. On Anomaly, we still needed 6.5 tons to get 2 tons downforce on the clew. A low gooseneck would reduce the stress only a little, but would make everything easier to reach. 

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8 minutes ago, DDW said:

On Anomaly, we still needed 6.5 tons to get 2 tons downforce on the clew.

A useful reminder of the forces involved in rig loads. This stuff is not for messing about with.  Sound engineering is needed.

I hate think what sort loads are generated by a crash gybe

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14 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

One of my favorite cruising concepts is the David Thomas-designed Red Fox 20: a nearly flat-bottomed, twin-rudder, twin daggerboard  cruiser which sails remarkably well.  The daggerboards are profiled and toed in, so the generate significant lift.

The flat hull makes these boats unpleasant in a chop, but for estuary use they are brilliant: spacious, fast and float in nearly nothing.

I think that the twin daggerboard approach has great potential for the sort of fast coast cruiser I have in mind,.  If paired with some sort of movable ballast, it should be possible to avoid the flat bottom, and have  a more conventional cross-section which is still capable of drying out.   The W1DA has too many failings to be viable, but it manages an appendage-free bottom, and goes a long way down the path I would want to follow
 

 

I've always liked these pocket cruisers. Nothing goes upwind like a trailer. 

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16 hours ago, Tanton Y_M said:

Yes, you can spend 1 Million dollars but, when designed for only a couple, simplicity and ease to handle is the way to save tons of money.

Millennium Falcon 50'. Caphorn, Patagonia 32000 miles at sea.

terreplein.jpg

965-OTW-MH21-15.jpg

965SAILDW-MH21-15.jpg

It is too big for me but the concept is fairly close to what I was thinking of.

Can I have a 40 footer version of this one, twin keel, minimalist pilot house, as little displacement as physically possible (I can compromise a bit on draft with twin keels and as a cyclist, I am used to travel light!), electric propulsion....

The cheque is in the mail! (or may be not, but that's what they say when they can't pay!)

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23 hours ago, Priscilla said:

I know money is no object but practicality is.

Deep draught crap cockpit no weather cover dodger nor bimini squeezy fore deck anchor tackle operation aft mast stabbing the saloon access and a bowsprit to add to marina costs.

Apart from that looks a cracker sailer.

 

 

 

 

The draught without the ability to dry would be a deal breaker for me but if you just have 2/3 weeks per year to go sailing and want to travel out of your own waters, that probably would be a rather good cruising boat, as it will cover a lot of ground, will be super easy to handle and the cockpit is spacious and well protected.

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22 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

A useful reminder of the forces involved in rig loads. This stuff is not for messing about with.  Sound engineering is needed.

I hate think what sort loads are generated by a crash gybe

I've been afraid to try a crash gybe on Anomaly. We do this on large wishbone cats, you can sail by-the-lee so far that when the wishbone comes across, it simply stops and luffs on the other side and can be quite without drama, up to about 30 knots anyway. The risk is the sheet - a lot of sheet - getting hung up on something mid-gybe. That creates drama - it will simply destroy whatever it tangles. On Anomaly, there is about 280' of line in the mainsheet, most of it out when you are about to gybe, and this would rake the entire cockpit. She is easily gybed in a controlled way, since the convertible bridle sheet allows complete control of the boom position throughout, and the vang will keep the leach tight and under control. I routinely gybe singlehanded, full sail, up to about 30 knots. The two powered mainsheet winches make this a pushbutton affair. 

On a cat rig, much of the fear of gybing is removed since the boom can be eased 90, 100, or even 120 degrees. DDW, you do not feel like you are on the brink. I've sailed DDW in 30 - 35 knots and fully developed seaway for days, autopilot steering, and not had a worry. I do run a preventer to the sprit pole, but much more often this is done in light and sloppy conditions to keep the boom stationary. 

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9 minutes ago, DDW said:

On a cat rig, much of the fear of gybing is removed since the boom can be eased 90, 100, or even 120 degrees. DDW, you do not feel like you are on the brink. I've sailed DDW in 30 - 35 knots and fully developed seaway for days, autopilot steering, and not had a worry. I do run a preventer to the sprit pole, but much more often this is done in light and sloppy conditions to keep the boom stationary. 

DDW, the more I look at this, the more I think that my unlimited-money boat should avoid the high-load sloop rig with its horrible inefficiencies, and make the cat yawl a priority design goal.

The downside of that plus my goals of empty ends and high righting moments while still being able to dry out ... all adds up to quite a radical package which many of the best designers would be reluctant to touch, for fear of adding a spectacular failure to their portfolios.   Even if lightning strikes and I have the cash,  my radical custom-cruiser project will require more than just a chequebook.

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Very interesting discussion about the cat-rigged yawl approach. I have three concerns:

1) It looks odd (OK, that's very subjective, but it's not just me - honest). I would not want my custom boat to be an oddball and marked out as a curiosity.

2) Would such a boat sell second hand on the open market (should a sale be necessary for any reason...a divorce maybe?) Even though "money were no object" I hate the idea of rapid depreciation (having been an Audi owner....twice!)

3) It's not what I want.

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Very interesting discussion about the cat-rigged yawl approach. I have three concerns:

1) It looks odd (OK, that's very subjective, but it's not just me - honest). I would not want my custom boat to be an oddball and marked out as a curiosity.

2) Would such a boat sell second hand on the open market (should a sale be necessary for any reason...a divorce maybe?) Even though "money were no object" I hate the idea of rapid depreciation (having been an Audi owner....twice!)

3) It's not what I want.

How about this one?

oGVzi4p.jpg

Just thrown in to stir the pot...

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18 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

How about this one?

oGVzi4p.jpg

Just thrown in to stir the pot...

Ish, you seem to have a junk fetish. 

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52 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Ish, you seem to have a junk fetish. 

I'm not quite sure how to respond to that.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

How about this one?

oGVzi4p.jpg

Just thrown in to stir the pot...

Hmmmm. I take it that junk (no pun intended) isn't sitting in the mud and her stern is supposed to be thrust up like that, somewhat resembling a trussed chook for the roasting dish. I mean, it's not one of Brent's is it?

Cough. Lovely. 

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14 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I dunno. Looks a little lacking in excitement.

45191357-cropped-1280x737.jpg

Also looks a lot like a Winnebego of the Seas.

How about this? Also on my list.  Balance 52

        

 

image.jpeg

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9 minutes ago, Epi-sailor said:

How about this? Also on my list.  Balance 52

        

 

image.jpeg

That's purty. Can I borrow it for a week?

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

I dunno. Looks a little lacking in excitement.

45191357-cropped-1280x737.jpg

Also looks a lot like a Winnebego of the Seas.

No seating for the helm reason being that condominium bolted on top prevents clear forward vision.

Side decks are pretty economical.

 

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12 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

DDW, the more I look at this, the more I think that my unlimited-money boat should avoid the high-load sloop rig with its horrible inefficiencies, and make the cat yawl a priority design goal.

The downside of that plus my goals of empty ends and high righting moments while still being able to dry out ... all adds up to quite a radical package which many of the best designers would be reluctant to touch, for fear of adding a spectacular failure to their portfolios.   Even if lightning strikes and I have the cash,  my radical custom-cruiser project will require more than just a chequebook.

We will soon be close enough in our brief to share the design fee....

What are the odds of an Irish lady and a Breton boy both winning Euromillions?

Erik Lerouge has retired sadly, I think that he would have been keen to do this one. It would have been a relatively conventional design for him!

That's one of his oddball  boats :

MjAxMTAxMTg4NDEzODM0MmI2MTlhYWU4ZDg3NGZk

In term of concept, although more extreme, It is actually not that far off from what I was describing (twin keel, light, easily driven, self tacking, mostly empty ends). To be an electric boat, I think that it would need more sail area, also the high freeboard / flush deck was chosen because it is an amateur build and the guy wanted to build quickly and robustly, the eye needs to "get used to it" I think.

MjAxMTAzYWVmMTYwMzBjZGIwNzU3OGFmYTcyMmEy

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15 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Very interesting discussion about the cat-rigged yawl approach. I have three concerns:

1) It looks odd (OK, that's very subjective, but it's not just me - honest). I would not want my custom boat to be an oddball and marked out as a curiosity.

2) Would such a boat sell second hand on the open market (should a sale be necessary for any reason...a divorce maybe?) Even though "money were no object" I hate the idea of rapid depreciation (having been an Audi owner....twice!)

3) It's not what I want.

Sailby, I guess the unfamiliar can look odd.  I can imagine a sailor from the year 1900 looking at a bay full of boats with tall metal masts and pinhead mains, saying "WTF".

I have the opposite take.  If I have a custom boat, I don't want it to be just a mildly-tweaked variant of the cookie-cutter boats.  For me, the whole point of going custom is get the boat I want.

Personally, I am astonished  that the Bermudan sloop rig has remained dominant so long, despite its hideous inefficiencies and its structural nightmares.  I guess that the various rating rules provide no incentive for competitive innovation in other rigs.  But if I go custom, I see no reason to stick with a rig which imposes insane compression loads and is so inefficient.

You are probably right that such a boat would be a hard sell in a market used to bermudan sloops.  But AFAICS, any custom boat takes a huge hit on resale.  At a rough guess, a ten-year-old custom cruising boat will sell for at most 40% of its build cost, and most sell for much less. So if you spend €1million  on the boat, you've lost €600K in deprecation.

Now let's say that the same boat with a cat rig sell for half the price of its sloop equivalent.  That's another €200k gone, €800K in deprecation

Then add in the cost of running that boat for ten years: unlikely to be less than €100k, possibly many times that.  Say €200k, which is only €20k/year (many owners spend way more than that).

So the total cost of ownership is:

  • €800k for the sloop
  • €1,000k for the cat boat

That makes the sloop 20% cheaper than t he cat boat.    If you don't want a cat boat, then don't buy one; but if you do want one, then omitting that feature to save 20% off the bill seems silly.

And of course, that assumes that the cat boat actually does sell for less.  But Freedoms seem to have held their value well, so that assumption may be false.

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17 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

1) It looks odd (OK, that's very subjective, but it's not just me - honest). I would not want my custom boat to be an oddball and marked out as a curiosity.

It does look different, and odd to many people. That turns out to be helpful in making new friends (as everyone is curious). And most cruising sloop owners get mostly the view from astern which looks more normal - so there's that.

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Sailby, I guess the unfamiliar can look odd.  I can imagine a sailor from the year 1900 looking at a bay full of boats with tall metal masts and pinhead mains, saying "WTF".

I have the opposite take.  If I have a custom boat, I don't want it to be just a mildly-tweaked variant of the cookie-cutter boats.  For me, the whole point of going custom is get the boat I want.

Personally, I am astonished  that the Bermudan sloop rig has remained dominant so long, despite its hideous inefficiencies and its structural nightmares.  I guess that the various rating rules provide no incentive for competitive innovation in other rigs.  But if I go custom, I see no reason to stick with a rig which imposes insane compression loads and is so inefficient.

You are probably right that such a boat would be a hard sell in a market used to bermudan sloops.  But AFAICS, any custom boat takes a huge hit on resale.  At a rough guess, a ten-year-old custom cruising boat will sell for at most 40% of its build cost, and most sell for much less. So if you spend €1million  on the boat, you've lost €600K in deprecation.

Now let's say that the same boat with a cat rig sell for half the price of its sloop equivalent.  That's another €200k gone, €800K in deprecation

Then add in the cost of running that boat for ten years: unlikely to be less than €100k, possibly many times that.  Say €200k, which is only €20k/year (many owners spend way more than that).

So the total cost of ownership is:

  • €800k for the sloop
  • €1,000k for the cat boat

That makes the sloop 20% cheaper than t he cat boat.    If you don't want a cat boat, then don't buy one; but if you do want one, then omitting that feature to save 20% off the bill seems silly.

And of course, that assumes that the cat boat actually does sell for less.  But Freedoms seem to have held their value well, so that assumption may be false.

Spot on per all points.  Custom isn't cheap, it doesn't 'give you your money back' and it 'should' be different or why do it?  Your 'cost' assessment is true as well. It's much like folks who don't want to have overhangs or bowsprits or otherwise longish boats because of the slip costs.  Seriously?  That's the make or break calculation for boat ownership costs?  (Now, if it needs to fit in a slip you already own, then loa matters... or you're buying a 4ksb on tight budget)

Many years ago I chartered a Freedom 30 or 35 (I can't remember which).  It was an eye opener to sail deep down wind and have no need for light sails.  The little camber spar jib was 'ok', set well but I never can quite get over the elbow it puts in the headstay....  I've been a fan of a free standing cat rig ever since.  A cat yawl makes a whole lot of sense too for a variety of well known reasons.

I'm teetering on pulling the trigger on a custom boat... still.  I will forever kick myself if I don't do the free-standing cat rig on it.  Visually, I'm happy not to have a mizzen, practically, it would be a mistake not to have a little mizzen for balance and riding on the hook.

My only complaint about the cat rig also stems from my charter of the Freedom.  The windage of the thicker mast so far forward made handling in a marina, in a cross wind, an absolutely almost insurmountable challenge.  The custom version will have a nice,  retracting bow thruster.....

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I've said it before, I'd love to see a production builder do a YMT-designed update of the Tanton 43 or similar freestander.

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"Custom" implies that one would hire a naval architect to design a boat based on the customer's input and specifications.

Think about that for a moment.  Would you really want to see the boat that would come out of MY brain, if I suddenly won the Mega-Millions lottery? Bob Perry would have a stroke from rage.

 

Homer.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Ajax said:

"Custom" implies that one would hire a naval architect to design a boat based on the customer's input and specifications.

Think about that for a moment.  Would you really want to see the boat that would come out of MY brain, if I suddenly won the Mega-Millions lottery? Bob Perry would have a stroke from rage.

 

Homer.jpeg

Ha, ha. And yet, I can honestly say I've never seen an ugly boat drawn by, Bob.

Although he seems to have a capacity to admire one or two, from other designers. That suggests he knows what he's looking at and I.....well, you get the idea. Good lucky with the lottery, Ajax.

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8 hours ago, DDW said:

It does look different, and odd to many people. That turns out to be helpful in making new friends (as everyone is curious). And most cruising sloop owners get mostly the view from astern which looks more normal - so there's that.

I couldn’t agree more! Love your boat DDW, only thing missing is an extra hull !! Cheers to @Sailbydate for starting this excellent thread.          My boat coming.....and going.

2631435E-F307-4E6E-A799-63293DD7B38C.png

3EC24D46-6DF7-47C4-8007-00D65396785F.png

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15 hours ago, Panoramix said:

We will soon be close enough in our brief to share the design fee....

What are the odds of an Irish lady and a Breton boy both winning Euromillions?

Erik Lerouge has retired sadly, I think that he would have been keen to do this one. It would have been a relatively conventional design for him!

That's one of his oddball  boats :

MjAxMTAxMTg4NDEzODM0MmI2MTlhYWU4ZDg3NGZk

In term of concept, although more extreme, It is actually not that far off from what I was describing (twin keel, light, easily driven, self tacking, mostly empty ends). To be an electric boat, I think that it would need more sail area, also the high freeboard / flush deck was chosen because it is an amateur build and the guy wanted to build quickly and robustly, the eye needs to "get used to it" I think.

MjAxMTAzYWVmMTYwMzBjZGIwNzU3OGFmYTcyMmEy

I'm liking the accommodations below, Pano. But otherwise far too oddball for me to take seriously. The only thing I recognise is Euro windows and the mizzen mast. ;-)

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^I guess the down force from that spoiler helps with cornering too?! :wub:

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15 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Erik Lerouge has retired sadly, I think that he would have been keen to do this one. It would have been a relatively conventional design for him!

That's one of his oddball  boats :

MjAxMTAxMTg4NDEzODM0MmI2MTlhYWU4ZDg3NGZk

 

Thanks for that, Pano. Matin Bleu is very interesting.  I found more on her at https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/croisiere/grande/conception-manoeuvres-matin-bleu-la-g