Sailbydate

What custom cruiser...if money were no object?

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I've been thinking about this since 2015, or so. Let's just say you have a spare million, or whatever you think you need:

So, at night, when you crawl into the sack, in that period between relaxation and sleep, what would your ideal custom cruiser be?

Ketch-rigged Cruiser - A Fast Reaching Passage Maker
Anemōnē (Wind Flower)

Somewhat traditional look, but with modern design, features and construction. Strip planked and or cold moulded timber, glassed inside/vinylester outside and inside any water-tight bulkheads. Decks may be glassed or core sandwich fibreglass.

Hull:
DWL of 43’. approx., but less than 14 metres max. overall.
Good hull volume, but not too beamy aft.
Sufficient freeboard to provide minimum 1.9 metres headroom throughout main cabin.
Good medium-hard turn to bilge. 
No extravagant overhangs. Plumbish bow and close to plumb stern to maximise reaching waterline length, but with maybe some handsome transom curve.
Not too fine an entry and carrying good hull volume forward. A bit of reserve buoyancy for a drier ride and with a broad foredeck. A reasonable hull rocker and with a bit of deadrise in her run aft. 
Medium draft keel (say max 2 metres) with plenty of ballast. She needs to be stiff and able to carry her rag in a blow.
Balanced spade rudder, with carbon fibre shaft and self-aligning bearings. 
Laminated wood (brightwork), tiller steering.
Good size brightwork toe rail and beefy rubbing strake.
Stern foldaway swimming platform, with integrated stainless steps.
 

Decks:
Non-skid pattern on deck and coach roof. 
Brightwork timber toe and grab rails.
Lowish profile, brightwork cabin trunk. Could be stepped.
Opening ports set in cabin windows in galley, heads, saloon and quarter berths.
Hatches in foredeck and double hatches in cabin truck.
Off-centred port side Companionway (to facilitate easy access around mizzen mast, if space limited requires.
Stainless Pulpit/Pushpit, Lifelines, Fences and Gates (port & starboard).

Winches:
4 x electric cockpit primary. 
2 x electric secondary on coach roof.
2 x main and mizzen mast.
3 x coach roof cam banks (2 forward, 1 aft).
Electric anchor windlass, with remote.

Accommodations:
Two double cabins; one forward, one aft, with adjoining head, vanity and shower cubicles.
Galley starboard side aft, with gas fridge, freezer, and gas gimballed hob/oven/grill.
Navigation table/station opposite galley, with electrical control panel, comms and circuit breaker board.
Saloon L berth settee to port, with folding table as convertible double berth. 
Single settee berth opposite. Good accessible storage behind and under settees. Pilot berth starboard side.
Diesel space heater in saloon, against port main bulkhead, venting through deck.
Brightwork ply veneer bulkheads and interior cabinetry, with large corner radii.
Water, waste water holding tank and diesel tanks, with through-deck filler fittings.

Auxiliary Motor & Power:
Diesel (45hp) under companionway stairs with Saildrive and 3-bladed kiwi prop
Alternator.
Electric bow thruster (drop down type).
Electric windlass with pulpit/cockpit dual controls.
Anchor locker & deck washer.
Electric halyard and sheet winch foot controls.
Batteries: One starter & 4 x deep cycle, house batteries. Spare starter battery, as switchable backup. 
Battery monitor and spilt diode charging control. 12v & 24v electrics with inverter and fuse/breaker board display, in nav station.
LED lighting throughout, including navigation lights/ masthead and riding lights.
Main mast mounted spreader deck lights.
Hot/cold water taps and faucets to galley, cockpit, showers and head vanities.
Electric bilge pumps x 2 and manual backup. 
2 x gas bottles in cockpit locker. Gas audible monitor/alarm for bilge.

Electronics:
AIS/VHF
GPS
Chart Plotter
AutoPilot
Echo sounder/fishfinder
Wind speed/TWA/AWA
Sum log/boat speed/SOG
steering compass
Masthead antenna, with splitter (for VHF, AIS and FM).

Rig:
Carbon main & mizzen masts, and leisurefurl booms. Fixed foot holds to both mastheads.
Fractional rigged with main and inner forestay, with roller reefing.
Main and mizzen standing backstays with triatic stays between. 
Main and mizzen telescopic kickers, with blocks & tackle.
Leisurefurl booms with internal reefing.
All short-handed sail controls back to coachroof and cockpit cam banks.

Sail Plan:
Cruising triradial main and mizzen sails
Non-overlapping triradial staysail and jibs x 2
Code 0 and asymmetric spinnaker (with snuffer) tacked off anchor bowroller fairlead.
Mizzen triradial staysail.
Storm trysail & Jib
All sails, except storm jib, in heavy white dacron,
Sails by Doyle (or North).

Dream on old man....

Lauri Davidson designed this beauty, Tauranga, which is for sale in Aussie. She'd do me, but is just too much boat for my purposes. But she is very smart and priced well.

Screen Shot 2020-06-13 at 10.53.17 AM.png

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17 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

gallery_6478_907_34948.jpg

Very nice. 

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If somehow I had so much money that I could afford anything, I'd like to start a community sailing program.... maybe a bunch of them... before I'd consider buying a big fancy boat for myself. Possibly because I've sailed so many cool boats, I don't think I could settle for just one, and it's more important to me to share the knowledge and skills and attitude.

FWIW I'd buy a fairly snazzy racing boat, maybe something like a Melges 32, and a 50-ish foot replica of a coasting schooner. Then for a cruiser, something like an expedition boat with big tankage, robust systems, and shallow draft to get into places others don't go.

Then I'd recruit crew from the sailing programs I funded.

FB- Doug

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47 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

gallery_6478_907_34948.jpg

 

Did ND ever launch that boat ?  

 

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33 minutes ago, savoir said:

 

Did ND ever launch that boat ?  

 

Not that I know of. AFAIK it's sitting in dry storage. Pity.

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The storage charges must be getting close to the value of the boat by now.

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Value is a strange word when used properly, especially with boating.

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"Off-centred port side Companionway (to facilitate easy access around mizzen mast, if space limited requires."

Your going to have to spend a bunch of money to get that past this crowd<_<

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If money's no object, I'd have several boats spread around, each design suited on the local conditions.

And a nice expedition trawler.

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

.........Plumbish bow...........

.........A bit of reserve buoyancy for a drier ride and with a broad foredeck.........

 

A raked bow would help with the reserve buoyancy and keep the anchor from crashing into the topsides.

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2 minutes ago, Panope said:

A raked bow would help with the reserve buoyancy and keep the anchor from crashing into the topsides.

Indeed it would, Panope. But it would also cut down max WLL. And besides, I like plumb bow shapes. They remind me of the old working cutters.

 

1 hour ago, See Level said:

"Off-centred port side Companionway (to facilitate easy access around mizzen mast, if space limited requires."

Your going to have to spend a bunch of money to get that past this crowd<_<

Ha, ha. Thought that might be a bit controversial, SL. But it can be a problem having a mizzen stump right at the top of the companionway steps, if there's a shortage of deck length. I expect somebody like Bob Perry or Kevin Dibley could sort it for me. ;-)

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1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

George Buhler "Darwin" 30' Riverboat

RW%20bow%20profile.jpg

 

RW%20Profile.jpg

OK, Blue Crab. I guess you prefer flat waterways? ;-)

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4 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Indeed it would, Panope. But it would also cut down max WLL. And besides, I like plumb bow shapes. They remind me of the old working cutters.

Fair enough.  Just don't muck it up with one of those dorky anchor prods (a proper bowsprit would be handsome).

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15 minutes ago, Panope said:

Fair enough.  Just don't muck it up with one of those dorky anchor prods (a proper bowsprit would be handsome).

You make a fair point, Panope. I thought that too, before I looked into mooring and service fees for bigger boats. All very hypothetical, of course. ;-)

Here, was my thinking: I'd stipulate max overall length of 14 meters because there's a big jump in fees beyond that. Serious money. If I was to add a bow sprit, that would take me well over 14 metres, unless it was retractable. Then it would all get a bit messy for short-handed cruising. It would look a bit 'try-hard' too on a cruiser, I think. Better to have a decently engineered anchor fairlead and tack the asym to that, no? I must add, that I've never flown a spinnaker single-handed, so I probably don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. But I'd love to try on this boat!

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Anything by Oyster with a custom taller rig added.  They do come from the factory a little under powered.

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MOD 70 for racing.

A nice gunboat style cat for cruising, sailing ability first and foremost, rotating rig, lightweight, simple build, simple systems, engines with shafts, dagger boards, three sturdy rod holders aft.

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7 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Not that I know of. AFAIK it's sitting in dry storage. Pity.

That must be around 3 years by now.

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67' seems a difficult size. I mean it big enough to need crew, but not quite big enough for true privacy. 

I'm conflicted between something like a carbon cutter or a cruising sled like the Riptide. 

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16 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

I've been thinking about this since 2015, or so. Let's just say you have a spare million, or whatever you think you need:

So, at night, when you crawl into the sack, in that period between relaxation and sleep, what would your ideal custom cruiser be?

Ketch-rigged Cruiser - A Fast Reaching Passage Maker
Anemōnē (Wind Flower)

Somewhat traditional look, but with modern design, features and construction. Strip planked and or cold moulded timber, glassed inside/vinylester outside and inside any water-tight bulkheads. Decks may be glassed or core sandwich fibreglass.

Hull:
DWL of 43’. approx., but less than 14 metres max. overall.
Good hull volume, but not too beamy aft.
Sufficient freeboard to provide minimum 1.9 metres headroom throughout main cabin.
Good medium-hard turn to bilge. 
No extravagant overhangs. Plumbish bow and close to plumb stern to maximise reaching waterline length, but with maybe some handsome transom curve.
Not too fine an entry and carrying good hull volume forward. A bit of reserve buoyancy for a drier ride and with a broad foredeck. A reasonable hull rocker and with a bit of deadrise in her run aft. 
Medium draft keel (say max 2 metres) with plenty of ballast. She needs to be stiff and able to carry her rag in a blow.
Balanced spade rudder, with carbon fibre shaft and self-aligning bearings. 
Laminated wood (brightwork), tiller steering.
Good size brightwork toe rail and beefy rubbing strake.
Stern foldaway swimming platform, with integrated stainless steps.
 

Decks:
Non-skid pattern on deck and coach roof. 
Brightwork timber toe and grab rails.
Lowish profile, brightwork cabin trunk. Could be stepped.
Opening ports set in cabin windows in galley, heads, saloon and quarter berths.
Hatches in foredeck and double hatches in cabin truck.
Off-centred port side Companionway (to facilitate easy access around mizzen mast, if space limited requires.
Stainless Pulpit/Pushpit, Lifelines, Fences and Gates (port & starboard).

Winches:
4 x electric cockpit primary. 
2 x electric secondary on coach roof.
2 x main and mizzen mast.
3 x coach roof cam banks (2 forward, 1 aft).
Electric anchor windlass, with remote.

Accommodations:
Two double cabins; one forward, one aft, with adjoining head, vanity and shower cubicles.
Galley starboard side aft, with gas fridge, freezer, and gas gimballed hob/oven/grill.
Navigation table/station opposite galley, with electrical control panel, comms and circuit breaker board.
Saloon L berth settee to port, with folding table as convertible double berth. 
Single settee berth opposite. Good accessible storage behind and under settees. Pilot berth starboard side.
Diesel space heater in saloon, against port main bulkhead, venting through deck.
Brightwork ply veneer bulkheads and interior cabinetry, with large corner radii.
Water, waste water holding tank and diesel tanks, with through-deck filler fittings.

Auxiliary Motor & Power:
Diesel (45hp) under companionway stairs with Saildrive and 3-bladed kiwi prop
Alternator.
Electric bow thruster (drop down type).
Electric windlass with pulpit/cockpit dual controls.
Anchor locker & deck washer.
Electric halyard and sheet winch foot controls.
Batteries: One starter & 4 x deep cycle, house batteries. Spare starter battery, as switchable backup. 
Battery monitor and spilt diode charging control. 12v & 24v electrics with inverter and fuse/breaker board display, in nav station.
LED lighting throughout, including navigation lights/ masthead and riding lights.
Main mast mounted spreader deck lights.
Hot/cold water taps and faucets to galley, cockpit, showers and head vanities.
Electric bilge pumps x 2 and manual backup. 
2 x gas bottles in cockpit locker. Gas audible monitor/alarm for bilge.

Electronics:
AIS/VHF
GPS
Chart Plotter
AutoPilot
Echo sounder/fishfinder
Wind speed/TWA/AWA
Sum log/boat speed/SOG
steering compass
Masthead antenna, with splitter (for VHF, AIS and FM).

Rig:
Carbon main & mizzen masts, and leisurefurl booms. Fixed foot holds to both mastheads.
Fractional rigged with main and inner forestay, with roller reefing.
Main and mizzen standing backstays with triatic stays between. 
Main and mizzen telescopic kickers, with blocks & tackle.
Leisurefurl booms with internal reefing.
All short-handed sail controls back to coachroof and cockpit cam banks.

Sail Plan:
Cruising triradial main and mizzen sails
Non-overlapping triradial staysail and jibs x 2
Code 0 and asymmetric spinnaker (with snuffer) tacked off anchor bowroller fairlead.
Mizzen triradial staysail.
Storm trysail & Jib
All sails, except storm jib, in heavy white dacron,
Sails by Doyle (or North).

Dream on old man....

Lauri Davidson designed this beauty, Tauranga, which is for sale in Aussie. She'd do me, but is just too much boat for my purposes. But she is very smart and priced well.

Screen Shot 2020-06-13 at 10.53.17 AM.png

If cost is NO object, I vote for the Savannah. Cruise the world with all your friends in luxury without emitting one ounce of CO2 :D

th?id=OIP.TZY6FLC8Q6vm44f3ooAnoQHaEu%26p

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If money is no object I'm going big with crew, mechanic/electrician, chef. No interest in a sufferfest. 

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21 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

If money is no object I'm going big with crew, mechanic/electrician, chef. No interest in a sufferfest. 

 

Like this?

image057.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It would be fun to ride around in, but they're noisy and rolly, and you wouldn't believe how much the crew eats. Or their table manners, for that matter....

FB- Doug

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32 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

If money is no object I'm going big with crew, mechanic/electrician, chef. No interest in a sufferfest. 

The worst possible addition to a cruise is professional crew. However quite handy for maintenance. Consider a very pleasant cruising sailboat for you and your several friends, with all the toys you desire. And then a second maintenance ship to follow along that the crew can live on and do whatever annoying things they do. It could have the helipad, freezers, fuel, scuba shop, too...

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40 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

If money is no object I'm going big with crew, mechanic/electrician, chef. No interest in a sufferfest. 

Don't forget a manager to manage the crew.  More people = more drama. Bringing that sailing? NFW!

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The hypothetical was unlimited money. You guys do it your way. I've hung with people with large household or yacht staffs. Didn't seem like a problem. 

Of course, those guys made money by being very smart and handling businesses well, which means significant people and management skills.

There are a lot big boats out there. The idea that crew requirements make them misery for the owners is unsupported by the sheer numbers of these things in use, and the building activity at Royal Huisman and Feadship.

Of course, being a hypothetical means it's not going to happen, which means I just have to be happy with what I've got. I think I can deal with that.

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My idea not only requires crew, but crew trained to operate a nuclear reactor. You all did recognize the Savannah is nuclear powered, right? I will have the cash, so my people will be handling all that.

"Hey, a piece of uranium fell on the floor and the engineer has three heads now"

"Handle it Jeeves and don't even think about paying the engineer three times his salary, the three of them can live as cheap as one"

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Saibydate.

TYD#842. Easy to add a couple of feet to the draft of 60".

TYD#851. Could add a carbon rig

CK45SPL.jpg

842ultimate.jpg

images.jpg

851pic.jpg

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She looks interesting, Yves-Marie. I can't quite make out detail on that sail plan. There's a square sail there, right?

851pic.jpg.4c6cd6dfdee6873dc29b24c91d90982d.jpg

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4 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

If cost is NO object, I vote for the Savannah. Cruise the world with all your friends in luxury without emitting one ounce of CO2 :D

th?id=OIP.TZY6FLC8Q6vm44f3ooAnoQHaEu%26p

And you won't even need nav lights. :D

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I wonder if any of the Perry carbon cutters has actually been used by the owner yet.

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16 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

And you won't even need nav lights. :D

Interesting choice. ;-)

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Even if I had unlimited funds, I would still buy something pretty humble. Not that I don't have dreams or that I don't enjoy the beauty of a nice custom boat.

But I think I would rather want to spend the money on experiences and on ways to capture them, not on the boat itself. I am also a believer in more classic designs, maybe I would spend the money on preserving something beautiful with a history, to which I could add some chapters, and then, later, my sons and their families. 

I would need to be able to drive the boat and have fun with it and picture it in rough conditions in the North Sea, going Heligoland > Edinburgh in four days. Now and in my 70ies, some thirty years away. I would also need to see me being able to cater for the boat then (not financially, that is -per the premise of this thread- taken care of, but I like to take care of my boats physically).  Possibly I would spend some money on transporting it over land, from the Med to the Baltic and back.

I would also want my wife to be able to drive it, also in rough conditions, so that I can get a bit of sleep, down below. Or that she could get me out, in the worst case.

So it can very well be an HR 29. But as it's supposed to be custom-made: 

BM30%20BRISTOL%20BAHIA%20UpWind.jpg

A Berckemeyer 30. Not high on the fancy-sh't list, I know. But in my opinion, the sailor needs to be more adaptable than the boat.

 

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3 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

The hypothetical was unlimited money. You guys do it your way. I've hung with people with large household or yacht staffs. Didn't seem like a problem. 

Of course, those guys made money by being very smart and handling businesses well, which means significant people and management skills.

There are a lot big boats out there. The idea that crew requirements make them misery for the owners is unsupported by the sheer numbers of these things in use, and the building activity at Royal Huisman and Feadship.

Of course, being a hypothetical means it's not going to happen, which means I just have to be happy with what I've got. I think I can deal with that.

Fair enough. The drama is there, but money being no object, you just have to have a boat/house big enough so that you can't see it and hire and retain the managers to keep it under wraps. Yet sometimes you just want to drive your own damn car. 

 

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3 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

The hypothetical was unlimited money. You guys do it your way. I've hung with people with large household or yacht staffs. Didn't seem like a problem. 

Of course, those guys made money by being very smart and handling businesses well, which means significant people and management skills.

There are a lot big boats out there. The idea that crew requirements make them misery for the owners is unsupported by the sheer numbers of these things in use, and the building activity at Royal Huisman and Feadship.

Of course, being a hypothetical means it's not going to happen, which means I just have to be happy with what I've got. I think I can deal with that.

The people with the really big gin palaces don't use them like a boat all that much.  They use them more like a portable hotel and occasional picnic table.

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16 minutes ago, savoir said:

The people with the really big gin palaces don't use them like a boat all that much.  They use them more like a portable hotel and occasional picnic table.

Some are used like floating bordellos.

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35 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Yet sometimes you just want to drive your own damn car. 

Indeed you do. And to hop aboard, slip her moorings and take her out on your own, just for the sheer pleasure of it.

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1 hour ago, TheDragon said:

I wonder if any of the Perry carbon cutters has actually been used by the owner yet.

All 4 of them, I should think. ;-)

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23 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Fair enough. The drama is there, but money being no object, you just have to have a boat/house big enough so that you can't see it and hire and retain the managers to keep it under wraps. Yet sometimes you just want to drive your own damn car. 

 

I've been driving my own boats for so long that I'm happy to give others wheel time. I'm pretty sure the owner can grab the wheel on  Asolare ( ex-Scheherezade) whenever he wants. If it's a sexy ass boat that's fun to sail, and the owner isn't a dick, it might be fun for a couple of years.

C'mon, which of you guys doesn't want a sail followed by cocktails and dinner on Asolare? Bring the wife. We can run up to the south coast of Newfie and chill in a fjord. Or meet the boat in Norway and adventure a little while still comfortable. 

Of course, if you think crew, a chef and a wine cellar ruin the experience, well, I've got other friends. B)

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

I've been driving my own boats for so long that I'm happy to give others wheel time. I'm pretty sure the owner can grab the wheel on  Asolare ( ex-Scheherezade) whenever he wants. If it's a sexy ass boat that's fun to sail, and the owner isn't a dick, it might be fun for a couple of years.

C'mon, which of you guys doesn't want a sail followed by cocktails and dinner on Asolare? Bring the wife. We can run up to the south coast of Newfie and chill in a fjord. Or meet the boat in Norway and adventure a little while still comfortable. 

Of course, if you think crew, a chef and a wine cellar ruin the experience, well, I've got other friends. B)

 

 

Possibly I'm a man of simple tastes but I'd rather spend it on Restive with a bottle of wine that I hand picked and cooking myself the fresh seafood you can get in Maine. I go sailing to get away from the crap on shore.  

Why do they have sport-fishers and 40' sailing yachts on a lot of super yachts? Because it's boring.  

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For me, even if "money were no object" I would still choose a relatively small boat.

Coastal/some Ocean: probably 35-38 ft

Ocean: No much more than 40 ft. 

Has to be singlehanded or double-handed by 70 year-olds in good physical shape.

Shoal draft a plus. A wood-epoxy would be a joy. 

High-quality, HR-type. Or the Garcia Exploration shoal draft boats (nice!!)

https://xlntyachting.com/boat/garcia-45/

Super mega yachts seem to me ridiculous. Even if I were super rich I would never choose one. More fun in smaller boats. 

 I would also have as a 2nd boat a Welsford dinghy for daysailing and exploring. 

The good thing about sailing is that the guy with the 20 ft POS is probably as (or quite as) happy & proud as the owner of 80 footer mega yacht. 

 

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Call me crazy but I’d refit a freedom 44 with all new bells and whistles and call it good.  
there’s something about those boats I just love.  

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44 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Possibly I'm a man of simple tastes but I'd rather spend it on Restive with a bottle of wine that I hand picked and cooking myself the fresh seafood you can get in Maine. I go sailing to get away from the crap on shore.  

Why do they have sport-fishers and 40' sailing yachts on a lot of super yachts? Because it's boring.  

That could be arranged. 

Let me be clear. I'm not interested in other boats for years. Restive is everything I want in a package that I can easily handle with my wife. She is very fast, has a downright sensuous helm feel, is roomy and comfy. She's great for Bermuda, is eligible for Classic regattas, and  fits nicely in Maine. My wife loves her and she suits our lifestyle. 

Scheherezade anchored behind us in Winter Harbor once. They had to set out bow and stern hooks to limit the swing, then the crew went out in an RIB to tow lobster buoys away from the hull. We were alone up the harbor and had lobsters in the cockpit. I can't imagine that they had a better time than we did that night. 

But the point of the thread, it seems to me, was fantasy.

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1 hour ago, plenamar said:

For me, even if "money were no object" I would still choose a relatively small boat.

Although my heart says old classic wood bronze and teak my head says something I can get in and out of the marina and sail singlehanded open transom with dinghy on davits decent sized engine central heating cutter rigged and little stuff for me to fix and improve.

Definitely no varnish.

RM1070

5db1be7da4237-70393-1.jpg.56bbc4b8dc9f349e9cd55240a1b036de.jpg

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Although my heart says old classic wood bronze and teak my head says something I can sail singlehanded open transom with dinghy on davits decent sized engine central heating cutter rigged and little stuff for me to fix and improve.

Definitely no varnish.

RM1070

5db1be7da4237-70393-1.jpg.56bbc4b8dc9f349e9cd55240a1b036de.jpg

 

 

Interesting but kind of fugly, IMO. How much righting moment would be lost with the bilge keel set-up I wonder, although I can see the attraction in drying her out.

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5 hours ago, Tanton Y_M said:

Saibydate.

TYD#842. Easy to add a couple of feet to the draft of 60".

TYD#851. Could add a carbon rig

CK45SPL.jpg

842ultimate.jpg

images.jpg

Something along these lines Yves, I'd take something like refined Norwalk Island Sharpie 26 in Alu, double the length but flush deck and deck saloon for watchkeeping...

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2 hours ago, nebe said:

Call me crazy but I’d refit a freedom 44 with all new bells and whistles and call it good.  
there’s something about those boats I just love.  

Yeah. You're crazy. Not in a bad way, but you're crazy.

Do you hate sailing upwind?  Or, perhaps, love it soooo much that you want it to take forever? :huh:

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Interesting but kind of fugly, IMO. How much righting moment would be lost with the bilge keel set-up I wonder, although I can see the attraction in drying her out.

How much righting moment is lost? None. Some hydrodynamic efficiency is lost all to hell though.

Actually, if the boat heels enough to lift one keel out of the water, a good bit of righting moment is gained. But that's not helpful in normal sailing

FB- Doug

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4 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Some are used like floating bordellos.

 

I couldn't possibly comment.

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Just have your megayacht with a selection of sailing yachts for your pleasure. Each on deck.

Say a 70' for getting away from it all with just a captain and cook for 3 or 4 days

Then a 35' sport boat for getting wet

And a few dinghies, kiteboards, windsurfers, SUP, kayaks for informal races with your friends

Oh, I forgot my mini sub.

And a captain to manage the crew. You just tell him or her "I don't want to be bothered"

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38 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

How much righting moment is lost? None. Some hydrodynamic efficiency is lost all to hell though.

Actually, if the boat heels enough to lift one keel out of the water, a good bit of righting moment is gained. But that's not helpful in normal sailing

FB- Doug

Interesting, Doug. Thanks for the feedback. My thinking was that halving, spreading (by what - 12 degrees or so?) and raising the ballast would in some way change the righting arm from that of a deeper fin keel. On the hydrodynamics side I can see how at certain angles of heel, the bilge keel could even be more efficient than a comparable single perpendicular fin. But obviously there will be more wetted surface drag, depending on the depth of a compared fin keel. 

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23 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Just have your megayacht with a selection of sailing yachts for your pleasure. Each on deck.

Say a 70' for getting away from it all with just a captain and cook for 3 or 4 days

Then a 35' sport boat for getting wet

And a few dinghies, kiteboards, windsurfers, SUP, kayaks for informal races with your friends

Oh, I forgot my mini sub.

And a captain to manage the crew. You just tell him or her "I don't want to be bothered"

Hmmmm. Since wealth, like everything in life, is relative, my suggestion "if money were no object" was somewhat misleading and open ended.

So, why settle for a "mini" sub? ;-)

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mini sub so it can be carried by megayacht easily. Still has a max depth of 3000' or so. That's deep enough I think.

 

deeprover-main.jpg

https://nuytco.com/products/deep-rover/

Update - crap.Titanic is at 12,500'. Must get a better sub. The trials of being rich, you know.

 

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Honestly, something around 32 feet, SA/Disp in the 220 range.

biggish mainsail, smallish foretriangle

tiller steered

inboard diesel

easily workable  by me alone, with a place to heat my chili and some place comfy for me to sleep. Since we're dreaming, it needs to have a decent double-berth somewhere.  Should be able to host 6 people for sit down beer-and-pretzels.  A buddy has a J-32 and that's awfully close, I just want one with a tiller.

 

Though, you know, the Alerion 28 looks awfully good to me.

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Being able to get in and out of the marina by myself is something I would be reluctant to giveaway for the sake of a dream yacht...

 

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11 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Being able to get in and out of the marina by myself is something I would be reluctant to giveaway for the sake of a dream yacht...

 

The assumption is that you just buy the damn thing outright and make it work for you.

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Nautor's Swan: Corporate website

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On 6/13/2020 at 11:07 AM, Sailbydate said:

Lauri Davidson designed this beauty, Tauranga, which is for sale in Aussie. She'd do me, but is just too much boat for my purposes. But she is very smart and priced well.

Built by Donald Bro’s in Tauranga along with both Riada and Riada II.

Sailed on the red one what a cracker yacht.
https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/boating-nz/20150601/281582354235830

 

BA40E88D-5F02-40C8-8E40-84083D07EF44.jpeg.63f80d1d0bba9e8132bf78d8a992093c.jpeg

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My dream boat is a sailor's coastal cruiser for the rugged west coast of Ireland. A slim-by-modern-standards boat that sails well in all conditions, is  a joy to helm, and is capable of drying out in hidden bays and estuaries, out of the way of the big seas.  With a cockpit seat I can lie down on, and a good dinghy solution so that I can get easily ashore from my snug anchorage to spend spend an evening blethering in the village pub if that's where the mood takes me.

I love sailing and hate engines, so I want a boat that needs an engine only in harbour, and hence can make do with the limited range of an all-electric set up with regen ... because it can sail in light airs, and make headway to windward off a lee shore in a nasty blow.  I don't care if it wins races; I just want to be able to sail everywhere.

I don't want much accommodation; just a decent galley with built-in slow cooker,  a heater, somewhere to dry my oilskins properly, and a small number of good seaberths with mattresses designed by a gooddess and the finest Egyptian cotton bedding.

Bob Perry's Amati does most all of that, but is spoilt for my purposes by a deep draft, net- and kelp-catcher keel, and lack of dinghy and anchor arrangements.

So my boat may be a bit bigger, with twin lifting rudders to allow a small dinghy garage, but otherwise empty ends to make beating into a long sea a pleasure.  Some cunning arrangement will have the huge anchor+chain stored near the mast.  Robust kedge anchor and shoreline-reel arrangements will also be designed in.

The coachroof will stop just fwd pf the mast, to give me a clear foredeck

Not sure whether I'd go for twin keel, lifting keel, Pogo-style swing keel, or just daggerboards.  But I will have some other ballast; maybe water ballast, maybe a lifting-and-canting keel , or maybe some extendable version of horizontal outrigger ballast like Vlad Murnikov's idea.  Since the cash is unlimited, I will hire geeks to design and test various setups.  

Obviously, all built of carbon and unobtanium to keep CoG low.  No on-deck wood (who needs the maintenance hassle), and some non-white non-gloss deck to avoid glare.  Super hi-tech tan-bark sails to confuse the yottie types.

If I can't do all this without having excessive sail area while still keeping high SA/D, I will shrink the accommodation to allow a smaller boat.  My aim is to go to beautiful places under sail, not haul a house around.

And of course, since money is infinite, my own shore team to do all the maintenance, deliver the boat home etc.

Or maybe I'll say sod it, and just get a Pogo 30 with beaching legs, so I can go sailing sooner in a boat that does 85% of what i want.

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5 minutes ago, Mid said:

Nautor's Swan: Corporate website

As long as it’s not one that’s mast is having sex with the saloon table.

23627941-5115-4BD6-BFB6-5F8A858D0484.thumb.jpeg.e188042a139d9f5dd9334a0f0c4dc28f.jpeg

 

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2 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

As long as it’s not one that’s mast is having sex with the saloon table.

progress has been made ...

 

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1 hour ago, Alan H said:

Honestly, something around 32 feet, SA/Disp in the 220 range.

biggish mainsail, smallish foretriangle

tiller steered

inboard diesel

easily workable  by me alone, with a place to heat my chili and some place comfy for me to sleep. Since we're dreaming, it needs to have a decent double-berth somewhere.  Should be able to host 6 people for sit down beer-and-pretzels.  A buddy has a J-32 and that's awfully close, I just want one with a tiller.

 

Though, you know, the Alerion 28 looks awfully good to me.

Damn, except for the tiller I was going to suggest a J/32.   At least the cockpit layout is well done for a wheel.

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29 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Built by Donald Bro’s in Tauranga along with both Riada and Riada II.

Sailed on the red one what a cracker yacht.
https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/boating-nz/20150601/281582354235830

 

BA40E88D-5F02-40C8-8E40-84083D07EF44.jpeg.63f80d1d0bba9e8132bf78d8a992093c.jpeg

She's a lovely boat.

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2 hours ago, Alan H said:

Honestly, something around 32 feet, SA/Disp in the 220 range.

biggish mainsail, smallish foretriangle

tiller steered

inboard diesel

easily workable  by me alone

I like the basic concept of a boat big enough to stand up, but small enough to manageable.

My notion is roughly stretch that boat to to 40ft, with empty ends, to get a nicer motion at sea.

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48 minutes ago, Mid said:

progress has been made ...

 

Even so, I haven't seen a Swan I'd actually like to own.  They are elegant,* so I approve of other people owning them (esp the S&S boats), but not for me.

* apart, of course, from the new JuanK Swans, which are fugly.  Good to race, but fugly

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14 hours ago, Tanton Y_M said:

Saibydate.

TYD#842. Easy to add a couple of feet to the draft of 60".

TYD#851. Could add a carbon rig

CK45SPL.jpg

842ultimate.jpg

images.jpg

 

5db1be7da4237-70393-1.jpg

If I had unlimited funds for a cruising boat that would be a bluewater one and I would get somebody to design for me an updated version of the nice Tanton Ketch bastardized with the RM, that would be :

  • cat ketch (may be with "matin bleu" style wingsails), I don't want furlers, I want sails to fall on deck when I release the halyard and want a self tacking rig that is fairly efficient on all point of sail.
  • Enough sail area so that she starts moving in 5 knots of wind on all points except DDW
  • some kind of deck saloon or small pilot house so that I can keep watch from inside when it's cold and miserable
  • a big tiller with an extension outside so that I can spend hours playing with wind and waves when the weather is nice.
  • modern RM style twin keel so that draft isn't too much of a hindrance in tidal areas.
  • 10 tons light displacement max. that's probably 40/45 feet
  • Moderate beam (to modern standards), lot of volume in the bow, flattish hull.
  • Windvane + wind generator ( I just like wind operated stuff)
  • Definitely no professional crew because I find operating boats easier than managing people.
  • No diesel engines because I am hopeless with engines and they stink.
  • As simple as possible electrics I can understand. (I seem to be better at this than at thermic engines)
  • electric auxiliary propulsion that becomes generation while under way. 40Nm range @3/4 knots is good enough (Yes That's how much I dislike diesel engines and like sailing!)
  • If the electric motor(s) could be mounted on rudder(s) that pop up (hobie cat 16 / IMOCA 60 style) when you hit something, that would be a big plus (manoeuvrability + ease of maintenance / inspection / removal of crap wrapped around ) !
  • Some redundancy that doesn't imply doubling everything (stuff that has dual purposes or one big thing replaced by 2 smaller ones)
  • Designed using the same parts as often as possible (land-rover style!).
  • If for some reason systems are down, boat can be operated like a 30 footer (that is tiller between legs and sheets on winches).
  • Designed for 2 to 4 people but can sleep occasionally 8 (navy style bunks OK) so that I can invite mates.
  • Easy access to the sea.
  • "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." (St Exupéry)

Yes, I know that would cost money I don't have....

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Something similar to centerboard Little Harbors in a 44 to 50 foot range, probably closer to 44 as much bigger gets to be a pain to handle.  Of course I'd do customizing

-less wood on deck -carbon rig to keep as much weight low as possible  -draft of 4 to 4.5 ft with board up -ability to get to all systems with being the size of a house cat, that annoys the shit out of me -cutter rig -open transom -stern hung lifting rudder to accommodate shallow draft when centerboard is up, and no through hull rudder post to leak or failed bearings 

Lotsa other stuff, but the main jist is a somewhat heavy narrowish centerboarder of the Ted Hood / Ted Fontaine vein with my own personal tweaks.  

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8 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Interesting, Doug. Thanks for the feedback. My thinking was that halving, spreading (by what - 12 degrees or so?) and raising the ballast would in some way change the righting arm from that of a deeper fin keel. On the hydrodynamics side I can see how at certain angles of heel, the bilge keel could even be more efficient than a comparable single perpendicular fin. But obviously there will be more wetted surface drag, depending on the depth of a compared fin keel. 

The physics are the same a single weight, at least at the simple level of righting moment. Moments of inertia and such will be quite different. But gravity doesn't know or care about that, all gravity knows is where the center of mass is. It's an old saying "which is heavier, a ton of feathers or a ton of lead" but it's true that gravity doesn't know the difference between them, or between two keels.

FB- Doug

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I posted her before. but this is my alden boothbay challenger:

84611930_10157174250372947_4642978991232

 

she's near perfect but cost no object I'd want more of less this boat with some minor tweaks:

1. stretch the design from 58ft out to about 65ft. I'd like to have a larger aft cabin with a full size bed. I'd alos like the new one built on aluminum rather than fiberglass. 

2. keep the centerboards but I I'd like a hydraulic system to raise and lower the main board rather than a cable. 

3. modern rigs/sails, possibly in boom furling for the main and mizzen and definitely hydraulic furlers for the headsails 

4. modern diesel engine/genset 

5. powered primary and halyard winches 

 

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Farfarer looks right to me, if you wanted to mostly be a passagemaker.

EB6FF176-966B-4ABB-8358-527193623ACD.png.033b184ef6307a05fedd03f45c493042.png

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11 minutes ago, Trevor B said:

Farfarer looks right to me, if you wanted to mostly be a passagemaker.

EB6FF176-966B-4ABB-8358-527193623ACD.png.033b184ef6307a05fedd03f45c493042.png

That's mighty fine looking

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6 hours ago, Panoramix said:
  • cat ketch (may be with "matin bleu" style wingsails), I don't want furlers, I want sails to fall on deck when I release the halyard and want a self tacking rig that is fairly efficient on all point of sail.
  • Enough sail area so that she starts moving in 5 knots of wind on all points except DDW
  • some kind of deck saloon or small pilot house so that I can keep watch from inside when it's cold and miserable
  • a big tiller with an extension outside so that I can spend hours playing with wind and waves when the weather is nice.
  • modern RM style twin keel so that draft isn't too much of a hindrance in tidal areas.
  • 10 tons light displacement max. that's probably 40/45 feet
  • Moderate beam (to modern standards), lot of volume in the bow, flattish hull.
  • Windvane + wind generator ( I just like wind operated stuff)
  • Definitely no professional crew because I find operating boats easier than managing people.
  • No diesel engines because I am hopeless with engines and they stink.
  • As simple as possible electrics I can understand. (I seem to be better at this than at thermic engines)
  • electric auxiliary propulsion that becomes generation while under way. 40Nm range @3/4 knots is good enough (Yes That's how much I dislike diesel engines and like sailing!)
  • If the electric motor(s) could be mounted on rudder(s) that pop up (hobie cat 16 / IMOCA 60 style) when you hit something, that would be a big plus (manoeuvrability + ease of maintenance / inspection / removal of crap wrapped around ) !
  • Some redundancy that doesn't imply doubling everything (stuff that has dual purposes or one big thing replaced by 2 smaller ones)
  • Designed using the same parts as often as possible (land-rover style!).
  • If for some reason systems are down, boat can be operated like a 30 footer (that is tiller between legs and sheets on winches).
  • Designed for 2 to 4 people but can sleep occasionally 8 (navy style bunks OK) so that I can invite mates.
  • Easy access to the sea.
  • "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." (St Exupéry)

Pano, I am fascinated to see how much overlap there is between our two approaches.  You want a slightly bigger boat than me (I am aiming for <5 tonnes displacement, to keep sail loads manageable despite high SA), but in most other respects we are on the same track: a simple tough boat, that's all about the sailing; no stinkpot; drying out, etc.   Maybe Farfarer's rig could work for both of us?

I think we should ask the goddesses to co-ordinate our Euromilions wins, so that we can collaborate on development. We could call this French-Irish collaboration the Killala Project, after General Humbert, since both of us want the sort of boat which is usable in a tidal anchorage like Killala, where he landed.  And we'll try to avoid Ballinamuck ....

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17 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

All 4 of them, I should think. ;-)

That is unlikely as the fourth is still unfinished in the shop. Third may not have even been launched yet!

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Panoramix.

Centerboards/Swing.

Twin keels could also work on these aluminum hulls

199ALLsaga-MY27-20.jpg

200allsaga-my27-20.jpg

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7 hours ago, Panoramix said:

 

If I had unlimited funds...

Enough sail area so that she starts moving in 5 knots of wind on all points except DDW

"Starts moving in 5" is sad performance for a cruiser. 5 is all one gets in many of the best cruising areas. Too much motoring.

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13 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Pano, I am fascinated to see how much overlap there is between our two approaches.  You want a slightly bigger boat than me (I am aiming for <5 tonnes displacement, to keep sail loads manageable despite high SA), but in most other respects we are on the same track: a simple tough boat, that's all about the sailing; no stinkpot; drying out, etc.   Maybe Farfarer's rig could work for both of us?

I think we should ask the goddesses to co-ordinate our Euromilions wins, so that we can collaborate on development. We could call this French-Irish collaboration the Killala Project, after General Humbert, since both of us want the sort of boat which is usable in a tidal anchorage like Killala, where he landed.  And we'll try to avoid Ballinamuck ....

Believe me or not but I read yours after writing mine. Although the Breton coast is not quite as tough as the Irish one, I think that we've experienced similar sailing conditions. My spec was written with ocean passages in mind on top of exploring tidal coasts (I dream of Newfoundland, Iceland, Norway, the Irish coast - I've only done the South - and Scotland!) and a money no object brief but for a slightly less ambitious program or a not so big lottery win, yours would suit me perfectly! If I were dropping the ocean passage requirement, I think that 10 tonnes would be definitely too big.

Farfarer is too big for me but her rig would work very well as long as we can make it self-tacking, I like going up estuaries under sail!

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11 minutes ago, Tanton Y_M said:

Panoramix.

Centerboards/Swing.

Twin keels could also work on these aluminum hulls

199ALLsaga-MY27-20.jpg

200allsaga-my27-20.jpg

Thanks for this!

That's bigger / heavier / more complicated than what I was imagining but yes, that's the right general direction.

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18 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

"Starts moving in 5" is sad performance for a cruiser. 5 is all one gets in many of the best cruising areas. Too much motoring.

Well yes and no, depends what you call "moving"! For me that's when I start switching off the engine (3 to 4 knots depending on the size of the boat).

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8 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Believe me or not but I read yours after writing mine. Although the Breton coast is not quite as tough as the Irish one, I think that we've experienced similar sailing conditions. My spec was written with ocean passages in mind on top of exploring tidal coasts (I dream of Newfoundland, Iceland, Norway, the Irish coast - I've only done the South - and Scotland!) and a money no object brief but for a slightly less ambitious program or a not so big lottery win, yours would suit me perfectly! If I were dropping the ocean passage requirement, I think that 10 tonnes would be definitely too big.

Farfarer is too big for me but her rig would work very well as long as we can make it self-tacking, I like going up estuaries under sail!

Pano, I haven't sailed the Breton coast, but from what I know the Irish coast is much easier than Brittany, because we don't have those ferocious tides.  You have vicious tide races around prolific reefs, whereas we just have big ocean rollers and fairly predictable strong south-westerlies with occasional savagery.  And there's not much shipping, so we don't have to be glued to the AIS.  The prolific drift nets are a pain, but I much prefer a net than a current driving me into reefs.

So despite the lack of decent yacht harbours along large chunks of the west coast, I'd choose the west of Ireland as an easier ride: much more predictable, and usually fairly easy to put out to sea if things get nasty.

I too like going up estuaries under sail,  but usually find that even if its not self-tacking, the job is fairly easy with a well set-up low-overlap headsail (say 105% or 110%, just enough to give some slot effect). I dunno how easy Farfarer's rig is to tack, but since she is primarily a passagemaker, ease of tacking may not have been a design priority.

Part of me would love to stay small enough not to need an anchor windlass, but I think that pushes the boat down well below 30 feet, where issues like dinghy storage get very difficult and standing headroom requires   too much freeboard or coachroof.

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