Tomfl

AC45F Lux for sale

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I saw this post in a facebook group.

The AC45F Lux is available through our brokerage. This is the complete package for the ultimate foiling experience from the America’s Cup.
Located in Long Beach, California.

Price is $US60,000.

Contact is ferdinand @morrellimelvin.com

Not sure if this is legit but seems to be a good price.  Found an ad on Yachtworld for the same boat for $US125,000.

Prices for boats seem to be crazy and I have no idea if the 60k price is legit but thought some you young whippersnappers who could actually crawl around on the nets might be interested in checking it out.

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How many athletic men in helmets does it need to launch and sail it? I’m sure it’s a nice boat, carbon fiber and all. But possibly an example of how the clearing price for old race multihulls might actually be negative. Which is a shame. 

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Wow. Gorgeous toy! But yeah the cost of maintenance, and just launching it for a day out, is staggering.

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Not a recreational sailboat

 

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Great boat. I know the guys who have it and sail on it. The containers alone are worth $60k. 

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1 hour ago, EarthBM said:

How many athletic men in helmets does it need to launch and sail it? I’m sure it’s a nice boat, carbon fiber and all. But possibly an example of how the clearing price for old race multihulls might actually be negative. Which is a shame. 

Just needs powered winches and some kind of barge on a mooring to sit on. mast up

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It's like someone who enjoys driving their car buying a used F1 car. You wouldn't even be able to start it and pull away. If by some freak chance you managed to get it cranked up on open water the results would probably be tragic.

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Probably make a great lake boat for the Bol d'Or Mirabaud.

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But only in the hands of the right people. Not a machine for everyman/woman.

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I will take it when my house closes,  30 days.

 ps, the only way to sail her is buy a cheap crane and have a non profit

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You have enough toys already.

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1 hour ago, DtM said:

...enough...

What does this word mean... especially in toy and boat context?

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15 hours ago, soma said:

Great boat. I know the guys who have it and sail on it. The containers alone are worth $60k. 

Wow. How many folks, how much effort to rig and teardown?

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16 hours ago, European Bloke said:

It's like someone who enjoys driving their car buying a used F1 car. You wouldn't even be able to start it and pull away. If by some freak chance you managed to get it cranked up on open water the results would probably be tragic.

It might not be that bad anymore. This team has been sailing what seems to be the ex french boat for a couple of years now.

https://m.facebook.com/ExtremeSailingTeam/

 

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1 hour ago, barney said:

It might not be that bad anymore. This team has been sailing what seems to be the ex french boat for a couple of years now.

https://m.facebook.com/ExtremeSailingTeam/

 

No bottom paint, someone is drysailing a ac45, big budget, California prices would eat you alive

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Nomex core-can't be left in the water, the osmosis kills the core. Look at all the high performance boats, A-Cats, SeaCart 30, VOR70/VOR65, IMOCA 60 etc. built with Nomex, all are drysailed with large shore crews.

I would go for an Easy to Fly 26 first, soft rig, can be launched off a ramp etc. :

https://www.catsailingnews.com/2020/06/etf-easy-to-fly-26-besson-to-race-2020-series.html

And while I'm a fan of the more toys the better, in many cases there is only so much time in the day to keep up with the maintenance required to sail these beasts.

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43 minutes ago, samc99us said:

Nomex core-can't be left in the water, the osmosis kills the core. Look at all the high performance boats, A-Cats, SeaCart 30, VOR70/VOR65, IMOCA 60 etc. built with Nomex, all are drysailed with large shore crews.

I would go for an Easy to Fly 26 first, soft rig, can be launched off a ramp etc. :

https://www.catsailingnews.com/2020/06/etf-easy-to-fly-26-besson-to-race-2020-series.html

And while I'm a fan of the more toys the better, in many cases there is only so much time in the day to keep up with the maintenance required to sail these beasts.

Did Stilleto's have a problem also?

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Best boat for pure fun is 16ft wide Reynolds 33s , just saying

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Seriously considered the Reynolds but got an F-82R instead - glad I did because I probably would have flipped the Reynolds at least three times by now...

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1 hour ago, gspot said:

Seriously considered the Reynolds but got an F-82R instead - glad I did because I probably would have flipped the Reynolds at least three times by now...

Trimarans do offer more safety, but with proper skills the r33 will fly a hull all day long with minimal risks and extreme sailing is like non other

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Back to the AC45, a lot of work, but as a bucket list it is worth the effort if it is done with a group of like minds, emphasize group

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32 minutes ago, multihuler said:

Back to the AC45, a lot of work, but as a bucket list it is worth the effort if it is done with a group of like minds, emphasize group

Well resourced group! :-)

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3 hours ago, samc99us said:

Nomex core-can't be left in the water, the osmosis kills the core. Look at all the high performance boats, A-Cats, SeaCart 30, VOR70/VOR65, IMOCA 60 etc. built with Nomex, all are drysailed with large shore crews.

 

The boats you mention might be dry sailed but it has nothing to do with Nomex cores having issues with osmosis.  If Nomex honeycomb is used in boats, it is generally with aramid fiber paper coated with phenolic resin.  Perhaps you were thinking that the boats were using aluminum honeycomb?

BTW, I have had the opportunity to sail on this boat and for the right team, the boat offers an excellent value and experience.

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1 hour ago, trackday said:

The boats you mention might be dry sailed but it has nothing to do with Nomex cores having issues with osmosis.  If Nomex honeycomb is used in boats, it is generally with aramid fiber paper coated with phenolic resin.  Perhaps you were thinking that the boats were using aluminum honeycomb?

BTW, I have had the opportunity to sail on this boat and for the right team, the boat offers an excellent value and experience.

No, I was thinking of the standard phenolic resin based nomex. The problem is less than the core and more the light 2-3x layers of 5.7oz carbon used in the skin that is highly porous when properly laid up with minimum resin content. Still, much less of an issue than the wing sail on the AC45F.

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1 hour ago, trackday said:

BTW, I have had the opportunity to sail on this boat and for the right team, the boat offers an excellent value and experience.

Lucky man! 

Can you comment on the overall equipment, effort around it? Obviously a crane, high powered support RIB. How many folks, how many hours to rig? How many hours of maint between "no breakage" outings? That kind of thing.

 

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19 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

Lucky man! 

Can you comment on the overall equipment, effort around it? Obviously a crane, high powered support RIB. How many folks, how many hours to rig? How many hours of maint between "no breakage" outings? That kind of thing.

 

My exposure to the boat was limited to taking a RIB out to it and getting to drive it with an experienced team of 3 crew in place.  Your questions are best directed to specific people at the M&M office.  PM me and I will supply you a email contact.

Malcolm

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Multihuller, Nomex comes in many types ,all are meant primarily for aircraft.

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On 6/22/2020 at 2:54 PM, randii said:

What does this word mean... especially in toy and boat context?

Sorry, silly me !!!!!!

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On 6/22/2020 at 4:17 PM, martin 'hoff said:

Lucky man! 

Can you comment on the overall equipment, effort around it? Obviously a crane, high powered support RIB. How many folks, how many hours to rig? How many hours of maint between "no breakage" outings? That kind of thing.

 

I talked to one of the guys who is involved with the program today. He said it’s a ridiculously good deal. As for the effort involved, he said they would leave it on a mooring for up to 2 months at a time (with frequent diver cleans). Obviously, access to a crane and a yard is good but not necessary. I can also report that I watched 6 or so AC45’s with their wings up go through a 35-knot squall on their moorings. No dramas at all. They have a pretty clever mooring system that prevents sailing snd makes sure they just windvane. If anyone wants to get in touch I’m happy to help. The owner is motivated to sell

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1 minute ago, soma said:

I talked to one of the guys who is involved with the program today. He said it’s a ridiculously good deal. As for the effort involved, he said they would leave it on a mooring for up to 2 months at a time (with frequent diver cleans). Obviously, access to a crane and a yard is good but not necessary. I can also report that I watched 6 or so AC45’s with their wings up go through a 35-knot squall on their moorings. No dramas at all. They have a pretty clever mooring system that prevents sailing snd makes sure they just windvane. If anyone wants to get in touch I’m happy to help. The owner is motivated to sell

Foiling daysails to SOGGY DOLLAR BAR Soma?

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I saw it sailing last year in Long Beach. Those guys made it look easy :D. Long Beach is a pretty great spot for it: lots of runway inside the breakwater. 

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17 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Foiling daysails to SOGGY DOLLAR BAR Soma?

Hell yeah. Just waiting for the border to reopen!

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8 hours ago, soma said:

I talked to one of the guys who is involved with the program today. He said it’s a ridiculously good deal. As for the effort involved, he said they would leave it on a mooring for up to 2 months at a time (with frequent diver cleans). Obviously, access to a crane and a yard is good but not necessary. I can also report that I watched 6 or so AC45’s with their wings up go through a 35-knot squall on their moorings. No dramas at all. They have a pretty clever mooring system that prevents sailing snd makes sure they just windvane. If anyone wants to get in touch I’m happy to help. The owner is motivated to sell

If that mooring system includes a big bag full of water, that's Paul Bieker's idea from the 72's

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Quote

ps, the only way to sail her is buy a cheap crane and have a non profit

Where would you be able to keep a crane and launch unless you owned the property?     

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On 9/14/2019 at 12:14 AM, gspot said:

Hi Stephen,

I've been thinking about our conversation and I'm very interested in doing the R2AK on the outside in your Antrim 40.

Like you I would be going for the win. I've got lots of experience and success racing in these waters in big breeze. For example, I've sailed 7 Swiftsures and won 3. I've also sailed around Vancouver Island twice, including the windiest VanIsle360 ever in 2015 where we won 4 out of 9 legs. We let it all hang out to get those victories, including flying a spinnaker in 35 knots of wind, 30 miles off the west coast of Vancouver Island, at night. That said, you can keep the $10K - I just want the experience and bragging rights.

I can contribute some of the safety equipment required, including a liferaft and MOB equipment.

I also have a couple of 7/16" vectran halyards 140' long if that helps - not sure if that's long enough for the Antrim.

I can also find more good crew as I'm well-connected in the local sailing community, however I don't think we want too many, but rather the right crew with the same mission.

If you're interested, I think we should bring the Antrim up here as soon as possible to go over her and start practicing through the winter - I don't want a bunch of green crew for the R2AK. We need to know that boat inside out so we can operate it as safely and efficiently as possible in all conditions

I can project manage everything on this end.

Let me know what you think.

Garry

 

I am in, but no Red Hen bread

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On 6/22/2020 at 11:59 AM, multihuler said:

Best boat for pure fun is 16ft wide Reynolds 33s , just saying

Word! 

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This is the perfect boat to smash the Around Jamestown Record and win your weight in rum

 

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3 hours ago, RImike said:

This is the perfect boat to smash the Around Jamestown Record and win your weight in rum

Or ANY record! Especially those friendly race records set by 12ktsb's...

Then you'd be real cool.

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9 hours ago, multihuler said:

I am in, but no Red Hen bread

Just to clarify are you suggesting R2AK on AC45 (given the thread) or the Antrim (given the quoted message) or the Tennant Wild Thing (given the propensity)?

Incidentally I've lived this long without Red Hen bread so I suspect I'll be okay for a while longer.

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2 hours ago, gspot said:

Just to clarify are you suggesting R2AK on AC45 (given the thread) or the Antrim (given the quoted message) or the Tennant Wild Thing (given the propensity)?

Incidentally I've lived this long without Red Hen bread so I suspect I'll be okay for a while longer.

The current owner of the AC45 pulled off 30 volunteers to share in the assembly and use , how rewarding for all of them , and for that I am jealous 

As far as the Race to Alaska the AC45 wouldn't be allowed as it is illegal to sail in Victoria due to it being a seaplane port, trivia in the r2ak it isn't against the rules to do something illegal, the best race ever!

I was planning on racing offshore solo with Wild Thing,  but would love to have a like minded r2ak team, getting to the start is a lot of work, and as much as I like to share, any crew would have to pull some serious weight for my 3rd attempt. 

 

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On 6/25/2020 at 4:32 AM, soma said:

 They have a pretty clever mooring system that prevents sailing snd makes sure they just windvane.

I'm not a potential buyer but I'd like to hear about the mooring system.

My cat as fairly large wing mast and sailing around on the mooring is a constant issue...

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14 hours ago, Floating Duck said:

Or ANY record! Especially those friendly race records set by 12ktsb's...

Then you'd be real cool.

I was trying to be fair but yes. BTW, the overall Jamestown record is held by a foiling kiteboard. 

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On 6/25/2020 at 10:19 PM, multihuler said:

The current owner of the AC45 pulled off 30 volunteers to share in the assembly and use , how rewarding for all of them , and for that I am jealous 

As far as the Race to Alaska the AC45 wouldn't be allowed as it is illegal to sail in Victoria due to it being a seaplane port, trivia in the r2ak it isn't against the rules to do something illegal, the best race ever!

I was planning on racing offshore solo with Wild Thing,  but would love to have a like minded r2ak team, getting to the start is a lot of work, and as much as I like to share, any crew would have to pull some serious weight for my 3rd attempt. 

 

Too bad it’s hard to collaborate with the borders closed and all.

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Id love to oblige this "motivated" owner and take this beast off of their hands, unfortunately, AC45s are an all but dead class, and with the new AC75 monohulls replacing the AC catamaran family, you will be hard pressed to find competition.

R2AK on an AC 45 is probably less comfortable than swimming the course, it is also, as has been pointed out, against the Port of Victoria's Guidelines.

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45 minutes ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Id love to oblige this "motivated" owner and take this beast off of their hands, unfortunately, AC45s are an all but dead class, and with the new AC75 monohulls replacing the AC catamaran family, you will be hard pressed to find competition.

R2AK on an AC 45 is probably less comfortable than swimming the course, it is also, as has been pointed out, against the Port of Victoria's Guidelines.

But, the thought of going to the bank to cash out three credit cards, knowing that all common sense doesnt apply to owning a AC 45 makes my heart pound,  and how much fun would it be to meet new like minded people, sharing a sailing project of biblical possibilities.

Much easier than rescuing Hydroptere. 

 

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10 hours ago, multihuler said:

But, the thought of going to the bank to cash out three credit cards, knowing that all common sense doesnt apply to owning a AC 45 makes my heart pound,  and how much fun would it be to meet new like minded people, sharing a sailing project of biblical possibilities.

Much easier than rescuing Hydroptere. 

 

I would not buy this AC45 unless you have the money in CASH, and 100k/yr to burn on crew and maintenance. Just talked to a boat yard friend of mine and he said that new Carbon Foils (which need to be replaced often) cost 100k alone to rebuild, forget about storage...

It's a cool boat though, as is your aforementioned Antrim 40, if I were you I would keep that as it is a much more usable boat.

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1 hour ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

I would not buy this AC45 unless you have the money in CASH, and 100k/yr to burn on crew and maintenance. Just talked to a boat yard friend of mine and he said that new Carbon Foils (which need to be replaced often) cost 100k alone to rebuild, forget about storage...

It's a cool boat though, as is your aforementioned Antrim 40, if I were you I would keep that as it is a much more usable boat.

They're replacing foils often?? I find that hard to believe, should need to unless you hit something hard and damage a board, or they are suffering from cavitation issues like some of the v1 foils in the IMOCA and Maxi Tri classes.

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The carbon fiber wears easily when under heavy use, thus after several ocean races the safe and smart play is to replace them

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1 hour ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

The carbon fiber wears easily when under heavy use, thus after several ocean races the safe and smart play is to replace them

Yeah...I’d be very wary of any AC45 which has done several ocean races. Everyone knows carbon wears easily. 

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2 hours ago, soma said:

Yeah...I’d be very wary of any AC45 which has done several ocean races. Everyone knows carbon wears easily. 

Ha! I saw what you did.

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19 minutes ago, D Wayne G said:

Ha! I saw what you did.

Me too, I used poor wording in my reply. My intent was this: Boats like the AC45 that consistently sail over 30 kts but a lot of stress on their Carbon Foils, the reason for this is simple, carbon fiber contains a relatively low resolution weave, meaning that it is very easy for the foils to flex and generate low pressure zones on the foils, therefore causing cavitation.

Yes I am aware the material has a good reputation and that AC45s are not commonly ocean raced. Multihuller has mentioned the R2AK as a race he wishes to participate in, this would require foil attention afterwards.

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Low resolution weave? Better stick with CF Hockey Sticks, I hear they are really High Resolution and don't cause cavitation...

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No carbon fiber is high resolution weave, this is inherently defined in the name , a fiber, a fiber is a material that is woven using fibers (threads) which is a low resolution process, this is exactly what allows it to be as light as it is. It is low resolution because of the size of the gaps between the fibers,  allowing significant flex in the material.

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????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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18 hours ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

No carbon fiber is high resolution weave, this is inherently defined in the name , a fiber, a fiber is a material that is woven using fibers (threads) which is a low resolution process, this is exactly what allows it to be as light as it is. It is low resolution because of the size of the gaps between the fibers,  allowing significant flex in the material.

Don't really understand this.  Something has to go in the gaps between the fibers and this is what gives strength and reduces flex of the final product.  Simple carbon fiber cloth has what I would call ultimate flux.

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Tom, I think High Modulus as it related to the physical properties of Carbon Fiber has been confused with High Resolution here. 

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3 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Tom, I think High Modulus as it related to the physical properties of Carbon Fiber has been confused with High Resolution here. 

Bingo

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All this BS about this fancy magical material.

I promise you it wount be strong enough when you hit a floating log, which you will in the R2AK...

Then what.

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10 hours ago, Floating Duck said:

All this BS about this fancy magical material.

I promise you it wount be strong enough when you hit a floating log, which you will in the R2AK...

Then what.

There are fewer logs if you take the offshore route 

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12 hours ago, Floating Duck said:

All this BS about this fancy magical material.

I promise you it wount be strong enough when you hit a floating log, which you will in the R2AK...

Then what.

Depends. Is it a low or high resolution log?

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2 hours ago, Monkey said:

Depends. Is it a low or high resolution log?

I haven’t heard anyone say they want to do the R2AK in an AC45. Am I missing something?

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On 7/4/2020 at 2:36 PM, Tomfl said:

Don't really understand this.  Something has to go in the gaps between the fibers and this is what gives strength and reduces flex of the final product.  Simple carbon fiber cloth has what I would call ultimate flux.

neither does he.

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18 hours ago, D Wayne G said:

I haven’t heard anyone say they want to do the R2AK in an AC45. Am I missing something?

It's been mentioned in a couple of posts but more in the vein of "I wonder if I can ride my snowmobile across that lake" than a serious consideration IMHO.

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2 hours ago, basketcase said:

neither does he.

Usually a resin compostie is used. I know the auto industry uses it like that...

No, you should talk to someone a little more qualified.

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14 hours ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Usually a resin compostie is used. I know the auto industry uses it like that...

No, you should talk to someone a little more qualified.

As a guy that works in the aerospace composites industry, anything on the foil "wear" topic in this thread is basically pure B.S. Carbon has near infinite fatigue life, high modulus, standard modulus, wet layup vs. prepreg vs. infusion, all infinite fatigue lives, essentially. The exception might be in something like a carbon-composite rotor blade, where the cycle (positive to negative loading) are high and you are starting to approach that "infinite" life limit. The other exception can be the core material used, as cycle loading can result in shear failure in foam cores (nomex or balsa are far less likely). These boards are generally build as solid carbon through and through, so this again is not likely.

The other issue is when you design the foils poorly, or too thin for the material, and underestimate the loading, then you might have failure as some of the AC teams experienced in Bermuda. I suspect that the issue with an AC45F in mortal hands is going to be overloading the boards by running them at too high of an AoA for the speed you are sailing at, or trying new things like differential on the rudders etc.

 

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On 7/5/2020 at 7:56 PM, multihuler said:

There are fewer logs if you take the offshore route 

How do you propose reducing sail when it’s blowing 35 off of Brooks Peninsula?  

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On 7/6/2020 at 6:16 PM, gspot said:

It's been mentioned in a couple of posts but more in the vein of "I wonder if I can ride my snowmobile across that lake" than a serious consideration IMHO.

If you're good, and it takes a few engines to get there, you can ride across as much water as you want, assuming the engine keeps running....It's not an efficient boat, but it'll work.

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11 hours ago, Raz'r said:

If you're good, and it takes a few engines to get there, you can ride across as much water as you want, assuming the engine keeps running....It's not an efficient boat, but it'll work.

Snowmobile is one thing, pulling a barefoot water skier is something completely different though. 

 

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8 minutes ago, RImike said:

Snowmobile is one thing, pulling a barefoot water skier is something completely different though. 

 

What the what? If he slows down he sinks, snowmobile buh-bye. Crazy.

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1 hour ago, martin 'hoff said:

What the what? If he slows down he sinks, snowmobile buh-bye. Crazy.

Oh they most certainly do. Generally there is a bouy with a loop on it and 20 feet or so of coiled rope so when it sinks it just gets pulled up. The fuel systems are in bladders so they don't leak and the engines are 2 strokes so there is no oil. I've sunk mine a few times and it started right up after.  They even race them on the water with an epic "last man standing" race at the end of the day:

 

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It's slightly more challenging albeit still possible with a motorcycle.

This exact video inspired my buddies and I to try it before I got into the relatively 'safe' sport of sailing - it actually works!!!

 

Perhaps racing an AC45 in the R2AK isn't so far-fetched after all, given that it is in fact a boat designed for use on water!!!

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