Jules

Getting Tough With The Maskless

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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22188875/

 

The use of masks and respirators to prevent transmission of influenza: a systematic review of the scientific evidence

Conclusion: None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask/respirator use and protection against influenza infection…. There is a limited evidence base to support the use of masks and/or respirators in healthcare or community settings.

 

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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32285928/

Cloth masks versus medical masks for COVID-19 protection

 

Conclusion: Cloth masks don’t protect as well as medical masks. Moreover, the physical properties of a cloth mask, reuse, the frequency and effectiveness of cleaning, and increased moisture retention, may potentially increase the infection risk, since, as it indicated by Osterholm et al. [7] the virus may survive on the surface of the face- masks. In this context self-contamination through repeated use and improper doffing is possible. Observations during SARS suggested double-masking and other practices increased the risk of infection because of moisture, liquid diffusion and pathogen retention [8].

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3 hours ago, dorydude said:

Actually, there is no evidence that masks are effective in stopping transmission of viruses.

Some masks - cloth - actually can increase the chances of getting infected.

You're funny.

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5 hours ago, dorydude said:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32285928/

Cloth masks versus medical masks for COVID-19 protection

 

Conclusion: Cloth masks don’t protect as well as medical masks. Moreover, the physical properties of a cloth mask, reuse, the frequency and effectiveness of cleaning, and increased moisture retention, may potentially increase the infection risk, since, as it indicated by Osterholm et al. [7] the virus may survive on the surface of the face- masks. In this context self-contamination through repeated use and improper doffing is possible. Observations during SARS suggested double-masking and other practices increased the risk of infection because of moisture, liquid diffusion and pathogen retention [8].

Apart from social distancing, what else do we have?  Respirators are barely available outside of medical personnel.  Some materials for masks are better than others.  When you see the sentence “Cloth masks don’t protect as well as medical masks.” ^^^^^^^. What do you think it means?  Protecting other people from you, or protecting yourself from others?   Given the willfully unmasked, we need respirators.  Not that they’re perfect- mainly to give ourselves a chance.  
 

On masks, for example:

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-diy-masks-virus/

 

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6 hours ago, dorydude said:

Head in the sand time?

That's a strange and rather childish debating style, and a guaranteed way to stay ignorant.

You used harsh words.

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This touch your mask and you are worse off because you will get covid on your hands and infect yourself stuff is absurd.

For non maskers, IF YOU WERE SOMEWHERE WHERE COVID WOULD HAVE GOTTEN ON YOUR MASK, IT IS ON YOUR FACE, DUMBHAT. DO YOU EVER TOUCH YOUR FACE, RUB AN EYE OR NOSE? 

Not ever touching your face with unwashed hands and handling the mask properly solves the "my mask gave me covid" problem. Properly is not stuffing it in your pocket and pulling it out to put back on, not fidgeting with it except by the straps, etc. Relax. People too careless or uninfomed to handle masks properly gonna get it anyhow. At least they might spread it less.

 

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7 hours ago, dorydude said:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32285928/

Cloth masks versus medical masks for COVID-19 protection

 

Conclusion: Cloth masks don’t protect as well as medical masks. Moreover, the physical properties of a cloth mask, reuse, the frequency and effectiveness of cleaning, and increased moisture retention, may potentially increase the infection risk, since, as it indicated by Osterholm et al. [7] the virus may survive on the surface of the face- masks. In this context self-contamination through repeated use and improper doffing is possible. Observations during SARS suggested double-masking and other practices increased the risk of infection because of moisture, liquid diffusion and pathogen retention [8].

Well, fuck

Looks like you might as well rub dog shit on your face.... it's gonna spread on everything you touch anyway

The argument you quote, above, is that wearing a mask reduces, if done properly. Doing improperly reduces risk little, if at all.

Seat belts don't prevent car crashes.

- DSK

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6 hours ago, Jules said:
9 hours ago, dorydude said:

Actually, there is no evidence that masks are effective in stopping transmission of viruses.

Some masks - cloth - actually can increase the chances of getting infected.

You're funny.

Dory must also believe in not wearing underwear, since if you never wash them they can infect your nether regions.

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It is mind boggling how, when presented with all sorts of rigorous, scientific, peer reviewed evidence of the efficacity of masks, surgical or othersie, how may people still keep repeating their regurgitated cabaret mantra that masks don't work. I mean, really? I know science is difficult, and a lot of people are not as well educated as they possibly could be, but contrary to what Mr. Trump would like you to believe, the act of merely saying something over and over doesn't make it more true.

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42 minutes ago, Weyalan said:

the act of merely saying something over and over doesn't make it more true.

It is gaslighting, a manipulative kind of hypnosis explained by Wikipedia as follows:

Quote

Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment, often evoking in them cognitive dissonance and other changes, including low self-esteem.

More here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting

11 Warning Signs of Gaslighting
Gaslighting is a manipulation tactic used to gain power. And it works too well.

Quote
  1. They tell blatant lies.
  2. They deny they ever said something, even though you have proof.
  3. They use what is near and dear to you as ammunition.
  4. They wear you down over time.
  5. Their actions do not match their words.
  6. They throw in positive reinforcement to confuse you.
  7. They know confusion weakens people.
  8. They project.
  9. They try to align people against you.
  10. They tell you or others that you are crazy.
  11. They tell you everyone else is a liar.

It's an unscrupulous technique that has been used effectively in "the proa wars"...

The most effective response is to disconnect from the compulsive liar and ignore them.

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."
 -- Maya Angelou

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4 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Dory must also believe in not wearing underwear, since if you never wash them they can infect your nether regions.

Holy fuck!  Are you telling me that Dory missed the part about applying common sense?

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5 hours ago, Weyalan said:

It is mind boggling how, when presented with all sorts of rigorous, scientific, peer reviewed evidence of the efficacity of masks, surgical or othersie, how may people still keep repeating their regurgitated cabaret mantra that masks don't work. I mean, really? I know science is difficult, and a lot of people are not as well educated as they possibly could be, but contrary to what Mr. Trump would like you to believe, the act of merely saying something over and over doesn't make it more true.

I think it proves that 'science' is never a settled matter.
Rather, there are many opinions on the majority of things in the world.
 

10 years ago, before social media, the scientific community had these debates and dialogues behind closed doors.
It would reach some consensus of sorts, and the general public heard of those and that was fine.
Now, because there are ALWAYS two sides of an argument - people cherry pick the data that proves their point.

So, of course there will be studies that masks aren't effective.
Just like their are studies that say masks work.

That's how the scientific process works.  But, it really doesn't 'end'
 

What's interesting, is the people (generally the extreme left, or extreme right) who say:  'omg, the science is settled' - on any matter they believe in.
Governor Newsom said that thousands of times, when it obviously turned out, the science wasn't (and never really is), 'settled'

The verdict is never 'IN' on things like climate change, covid, obesity, etc.
There are lots of opinions, lots of studies.

But, I don't get why the debate becomes so polarized and politicized.

 

There are studies that show masks aren't very effective at certain things.
Why is that cause to smear someone who reads those surveys?

Science doesn't pick a side, it's a discussion, that doesn't end.

 

Or, it used to be...
 

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4 hours ago, Jules said:

Holy fuck!  Are you telling me that Dory missed the part about applying common sense?

It's going to be a horrible realization for him that eating your underwear does not reduce your chances of becoming pregnant. A 9-pound ball of fecal joy awaits him in a few months.

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2 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

I think it proves that 'science' is never a settled matter.
Rather, there are many opinions on the majority of things in the world.
 

10 years ago, before social media, the scientific community had these debates and dialogues behind closed doors.
It would reach some consensus of sorts, and the general public heard of those and that was fine.
Now, because there are ALWAYS two sides of an argument - people cherry pick the data that proves their point.

So, of course there will be studies that masks aren't effective.
Just like their are studies that say masks work.

That's how the scientific process works.  But, it really doesn't 'end'
 

What's interesting, is the people (generally the extreme left, or extreme right) who say:  'omg, the science is settled' - on any matter they believe in.
Governor Newsom said that thousands of times, when it obviously turned out, the science wasn't (and never really is), 'settled'

The verdict is never 'IN' on things like climate change, covid, obesity, etc.
There are lots of opinions, lots of studies.

But, I don't get why the debate becomes so polarized and politicized.

 

There are studies that show masks aren't very effective at certain things.
Why is that cause to smear someone who reads those surveys?

Science doesn't pick a side, it's a discussion, that doesn't end.

 

Or, it used to be...
 

This is probably the most reasoned / reasonable post that I have seen from you. You are absolutely right; science is a journey, not a destination. No doubt about that. 

But saying "there are studies that show masks are very effective at certain things" is not that same as saying "masks don't work, here is a sciencefactoid I found using google that proves it". Which is a summarisation of most arguments I have heard from people refusing to wear masks.

The problem is that an awful lot of people are not using science to inform their decisions, but looking for  "science" (or something approximately resembling science) that appears to support that thing that they want to believe. And if you go looking, you always find something quasi-scientific that approximates the p.o.v. that you are seeking to espouse. And the problem is that even allowing that science is a process, not all science is created equal. A source from The New England Journal of Medicine and a source from Ron L Hubbard's The Way to Happiness are not equal. But Google doesn't give science a legitimacy rating.  So playing the "my science is better than your science" quickly descends into farce unless you are being genuine about the reliability of your source... hence I prefer, a peer reviewed article in The Lancet over the spoken words of Donald Trump (and yes, I did just essentially say that my science is better than your science, but that's because it is ;)  )

 

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7 hours ago, Weyalan said:

But saying "there are studies that show masks are very effective at certain things" is not that same as saying "masks don't work, here is a sciencefactoid I found using google that proves it". Which is a summarisation of most arguments I have heard from people refusing to wear masks.

Unfortunately there are some people who take as gospel whatever anyone on "their side" says, which is usually along political lines.  But this is medical science.  Do these people call their congressman to get a diagnosis on that lump growing on their neck?  Which is what makes taking the word of a politician on matters of science even more baffling. 

Politicians only need to be good at one thing - getting people to vote for them and that usually requires a lot of bullshitting.  The criteria for earning a degree, and subsequently respect, in the world of science is light years greater than it is in the political world.

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People who wear face masks become less sick if they do contract coronavirus, researchers find, SEPTEMBER 8, 2020
https://www.salon.com/2020/09/08/people-who-wear-face-masks-become-less-sick-if-they-do-contract-coronavirus-researchers-find/
Masks don't just stop the coronavirus's spread — they make you more likely to be asymptomatic, study says

Quote

Face masks are a well-proven preventative measure for slowing the spread of the novel coronavirus. But it turns out that mask-wearing has a second, surprising benefit, too, in that they may actually confer heightened immunity upon those who wear them. 

That's the conclusion of a fascinating new study from University of California, San Francisco researchers. The study's findings: mask-wearing, aside from limiting virus spread, seems to make those who do contract coronavirus feel less sick.
[...]
[Dr. Monica Gandhi] says wearing a mask appears to increase the probability that you will be asymptomatic. "Previous work by our group seems to indicate that you can drive up the proportion of people who are asymptomatic by universal, population-wide masking," she told Salon.

 

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There was a time when Americans were polite.  Thoughtful. Considerate.  When the words "Please and "Thank You" were commonly used. 

"For the benefit of those who may be adversely affected by this virus, would you please wear a mask when within the doors of our business?"

"Of course.  Not a problem."

"Thank you."

Today the response is more likely to be that of a spoiled child.

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1 hour ago, Jules said:

There was a time when Americans were polite.  Thoughtful. Considerate.  When the words "Please and "Thank You" were commonly used. 

"For the benefit of those who may be adversely affected by this virus, would you please wear a mask when within the doors of our business?"

"Of course.  Not a problem."

"Thank you."

Today the response is more likely to be that of a spoiled child.

I'm not so sure about that. Not the part about today's response, I'm talking about how polite, thoughtful, and considerate things supposedly used to be. I think the impolite, unthoughtful, and inconsiderate impulses used to be there but people would either just comply and grumble about it or turn around and leave.

Now that everyone feels like they've got a megaphone in the form of social media, their reaction instead is some variant of "do you know who I am?" Yes, I do blame social media for a lot of our society's newer ills.

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Quote

The woman - who had tested positive for COVID-19 - was arrested on Monday at Zurriola beach in San Sebastián, in Spain’s Basque Country, after going surfing when she should have been in quarantine.

After confirming that she was meant to be at home, several officers – some in protective suits to avoid contagion – attempted to remove the woman from the water.

Video footage captured a struggle as the woman, a lifeguard, refused to stop surfing and tried to flee from the officers.

She was arrested for disobeying authorities and crimes against public health.
[...]
According to some sources, the police were tipped off by the woman’s own colleagues who knew she was not meant to be outside and saw her enter the water.

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Slow down there @LMI, three down votes in quick succession is a rampage and a good clue that I belong on your ignore list.  WTF?

Correction.  Four down votes!?  What's your beef?

LMI.png.7428bc60890200f3f588d1876929fa94.png

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3 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Slow down there @LMI, three down votes in quick succession is a rampage and a good clue that I belong on your ignore list.  WTF? 

Have some upvotes to keep things balanced. =*

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Mathy,

Do you have any data about time to mask saturation, P95 and lower rated, for adult person in virus shedding mode?

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17 minutes ago, Frogman56 said:

Mathy,

Do you have any data about time to mask saturation, P95 and lower rated, for adult person in virus shedding mode?

I'm a maths guy. I have literally zero clue about medicine stuff.

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1 hour ago, Frogman56 said:

Mathy,

Do you have any data about time to mask saturation, P95 and lower rated, for adult person in virus shedding mode?

Do you have any information about how I could become a disinformation agent like you?  Any leads?

Looks like fun.  Any help appreciated.

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On 9/10/2020 at 6:49 PM, mathystuff said:

I'm a maths guy. I have literally zero clue about medicine stuff.

@mikewof: please note - this is appropriate behaviour when you don't have knowledge in a particular area.  

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Florida Woman Apologizes for Bar Crawl That Sparked German COVID-19 Outbreak, Sep. 17, 2020
https://www.thedailybeast.com/florida-woman-yasmin-adli-faces-10-years-in-jail-in-germany-after-going-on-bar-crawl-with-covid-19

Quote

A bar crawl in Germany may cost a 26-year-old from Florida 10 years in a German jail for partying despite showing coronavirus symptoms, thus infecting at least 23 people and exposing more than 710, the Daily Mail reports. Yasmin Adli worked at a U.S. military vacation lodge in Germany and was waiting for her COVID-19 test results after a vacation in Greece, where she reportedly partied several nights with a sore throat. At the same time that Adli allegedly told her employer that she was too sick to work, she allegedly went to several bars where she kissed several different employees.

I’d like to take the time now to thank everyone for coming to my rona party and to apologize for the current circumstances, I did not know I had the rona when we went out Tuesday but I take full responsibility in not self isolating whilst having a cold,” she wrote in a group text message to friends, according to the Daily Mail. The Edelweiss Lodge and Resort has closed for two weeks after 25 staff members contracted the virus. Adli faces “criminal liability for willful and dangerous bodily harm,” which can range from six months to 10 years in jail, according to lawyer Arndt Kempgens.

 

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33 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Florida Woman Apologizes for Bar Crawl That Sparked German COVID-19 Outbreak

That's pretty big news around here. It is the first prominent case of someone breaking a quarantine order and getting others sick.

It's also in bavaria, so my guess is she's fucked.

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Oh, this young lady made nation wide news alright!

The testing and following cases are actually still unclear, it might be (hopefully) less bad than reported/projected at this time, but yeah, she is looking at some serious fines. Tracking and testing some 700+ people plus beyond the bars and clubs she visited, most of the town shutting down again - that will be some substantial bills, even before someone gets really sick or dies. And she will own these bills and fines.

Now, some rather ignorant US citizen bragging blatantly about travelling around Europe, going out and spreading some kisses or dollars or the virus ... just who does that remind me of?

 

Irony aside: use common sense, do not expose yourself to others more than absolutely necessary, mask up and don't be a fucking idiot. If you can't do that stay the fuck home, at least on your own continent.

 

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She's also "just" charged with fahrlässige Körperverletzung (causing bodily harm by neglect?) afaik so that's only up to three years in prison.

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8 minutes ago, Grog said:

mask up and don't be a fucking idiot

But she is a fucking idiot and obviously clueless about that fact.  She is far from alone, unfortunately.  Sad (and a bit scary), but true.

2 minutes ago, mathystuff said:

fahrlässige Körperverletzung (causing bodily harm by neglect?)

"negligent assault" according to Google:
https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto&tl=en&text=fahrlässige Körperverletzung

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7 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

But she is a fucking idiot and obviously clueless about that fact.  She is far from alone, unfortunately.  Sad (and a bit scary), but true.

Absolutely.

 

And ...

Quote

...but I take full responsibility in not self isolating whilst having a cold.

It's not a fucking cold. Much less when she has been tested and told to quarantine.

 

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2 minutes ago, Grog said:

It's not a fucking cold. Much less when she has been tested and told to quarantine. 

Yeah, judge isn't going to like that text.

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2 minutes ago, mathystuff said:

Yeah, judge isn't going to like that text.

Yup. I wonder, did that incident make any major headlines in the US so far? I can't find anything substantial beyond what @ProaSailor posted.

As in "getting tough with the maskless and we fucking mean it!"? 

 

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14 hours ago, Grog said:

I wonder, did that incident make any major headlines in the US so far?

Nope.  Not big news at all considering the level of idiocy we are dealing with here.  Wish there were a vaccine against stupidity but it's rampant.

Parents Knowingly Send Student Who Was Infected With COVID-19 To School, 09/17/2020
Close to 30 teens in Attleboro, Massachusetts, will have to quarantine after the student attended classes despite getting a positive test result.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/parents-send-coronavirus-infected-kid-to-school_n_5f63edbec5b6b9795b0d973b

Quote

“A lot of parents are very angry at the parents who sent the kid to school,” the mayor said.

 

Shunning masks is a central sacrament of the Trump cult: Reason can't compete with faith, SEPTEMBER 17, 2020
Trump's followers believe their leader has given their lives meaning. It's public health versus mass delusion
https://www.salon.com/2020/09/17/shunning-masks-is-a-central-sacrament-of-the-trump-cult-reason-cant-compete-with-faith/

Quote

People with lower cognitive abilities find it difficult to follow directions about when to wear a mask and when it is appropriate and safe not to do so. Moreover, when the rules about wearing a mask are inconsistent, it becomes even more difficult for people with lower cognitive abilities to wear masks consistently and correctly.

Researchers have also found that people who exhibit the "dark triad" of behavior and personality traits (Machiavellianism, narcissism and psychopathy) are also more likely not to wear masks as compared to others.

Among men, a refusal to wear a mask is connected to a sense of fragile and embattled masculinity, in which masks are viewed as being "weak" and "feminine" and "not cool." For such men who lack confidence in their sense of self and overall identity, not wearing a mask is a selfish act which they view as strength and perhaps as evidence that they are "alpha males" who can win a primitive test of "survival of the fittest."

In Scientific American, Emily Willingham suggests that masks are also viewed as a "condom of the face" by men who are afflicted with "toxic masculinity".

 

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On 9/17/2020 at 11:58 AM, Rain Man said:

 

@mikewof: please note - this is appropriate behaviour when you don't have knowledge in a particular area.  

In that case, you should shut your taco-receptacle, you shitheel.

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The permission to curse back expires after 28 days. Sorry.

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On 9/18/2020 at 7:02 AM, ProaSailor said:

Wish there were a vaccine against stupidity but it's rampant.

Kill them.  Problem: solved.  Better hope you aren't needing the vaccine from somebody else though.

 

 

When is this super duper deadly virus supposed to dig in?  I thought we were all going to be dead by now?

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Saw some interesting data of European countries cases marked when mask mandates started.

Correlation doesn't mean a mask isn't effective.   (You could make the argument that the rises *would* have been even steeper)
And surely 'compliance' isn't uniform.

Any explanation for it?
Maybe bad data? Are the mask mandate dates wrong?


FYI: Data is from mid October, pre-next round of lockdowns in Europe.

 

1083036040_ScreenShot2020-11-29at4_34_46AM.thumb.png.9ffe3b4f4750eb349e000e4e72f48cfe.png

Screen Shot 2020-11-29 at 4.34.52 AM.png

Screen Shot 2020-11-29 at 4.34.33 AM.png

Screen Shot 2020-11-29 at 4.34.06 AM.png

Screen Shot 2020-11-29 at 4.34.41 AM.png

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Masks help prevent the spread of infection from asymptomatic carriers, or even symptomatic ones who don't give a shit and go out anyway, to others.  The corona virus spreads on droplets that result from respiration.

The reason for the current second wave in North America is behavioural.  When we did a good job flattening the curve in the first wave, we became complacent and resumed activities that allowed the virus to be spread.  Politicians, together with their health officials, in their desire to avoid a second interruption to the economy, have not had the nerve to impose a second lockdown. 

This is not the time to be questioning the use of masks.  We need to use every possible tool to reduce the spread in North America, even if they are not 100% effective.  

To make yourself feel better about this, take a look at Hong Kong, which has had a mandatory mask mandate for some time.  While they have recently had another small surge in cases, they implemented a mask mandate early and most businesses did not close.

From wiki: " In a study published in April 2020 in the Lancet, the authors expressed their belief that border restrictions, quarantine and isolation, social distancing, and behavioural changes such as wearing masks likely all played a part in the containment of the disease up to the end of March.[3] 

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Yet some people blatantly post misleading numbers to question the usefulness of masks, limited contacts et al.

In case you guys haven't noticed: Trump has lost. You can ditch him and his agenda without consequences.

So why do you still want people to expose themselves and others to the virus? Why do you want them to get infected, get sick and probably die?

Is it really only to justify your made up, idiotic "blatant" handle on this forum?

Hm? Cunt? Is it?

 

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I just visited my county health department.    The county building has the usual sign, mandated by the governor for all buildings open to the public, requiring mask wearing.   The health department is an office off the main lobby.     It also has a sign.    I waited outside the glass doors while they finished up with the person ahead of me.   I noticed as he walked out he wasn't wearing a mask.   If a local business allowed him in they would theoretically face a warning, with a penalty shutdown up to 24 hours for a second offense.     WTF?   The county health department, in the middle of a pandemic, is ignoring their own health rules?   Of course our elected state and federal representatives have an understanding of infectious disease and CoViD roughly comparable to Trump and Blatant Echo, so I shouldn't be surprised.   At least Blatant is honest enough to use an avatar with an air filled head.  

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  • A mask mandate isn't typically adhered to in homes. 
  • Cold weather drives people indoors and indoors the virus spreads more easily.
  • As cold weather set in, the number of cases rose dramatically.

Unless those charts adjusted for the fact more people are spending time indoors, they are fairly meaningless as a tool to gauge the effectiveness of masks.

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On 8/11/2020 at 3:38 PM, BlatantEcho said:

^^^^ lol, what does this graph even mean??

You know Johns Hopkins publishes actual data right?
It shows all the the trends, and rates them over a two week period:


Johns Hopkins - States Reopening Data

Screen Shot 2020-08-11 at 8.36.39 AM.png

3 and a bit months later...the bumps in the graphs to 8/9/2020 barely register in graphs to 11/30/2020...

image.png.fd12ee8d66b2b463f6ae486748b1a998.png

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On 8/29/2020 at 2:46 PM, BlatantEcho said:

I understand the dig you're making, but, the death rate for France is, and has been, effectively zero, for a while... (watch the video)

So, bad French policy maybe isn't the thing to get mad at.

Lack of the French following science?  Yes
Political posturing in the name of safety?  Yes
Social media ruining everything with fake information?  Yes
Herd mentality of people that self reinforce said fake information?  Yes
Media making shit tons of money off this hysteria?  Yes

 

France isn't closed because people are sick or dying, it's closed because of the above.
 

How's your assertion stacking up now?

https://www.google.com/search?q=france+covid&oq=france+covid&aqs=chrome..69i57.1999j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

image.png.e30ee6ba15c89dea48fb027d350e285b.png

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On 8/29/2020 at 6:43 PM, BlatantEcho said:

*sigh*

This is, again, where the general population, and online community, show just an embarrassing level of ignorance :(


The goal was never to 'control the spread'.... that's idiotic beyond words.
(not to mention, impossible).

It's 2020, if you haven't noticed - not 20,000 BC.  
People move around, we have cars, ships, planes. The world is globally connected, even if the citizens of Canada haven't gotten that memo.


You might as well try to control the spread of snowflakes in Canada in Winter.
Nothing you do is going to work. No matter what the government says.
 
It's going to fucking snow.

****

The goal should have been, to protect the vulnerable. 
Once that is done, then, a lot more damage is done by shutting down the world, than by a virus.

Here are daily cases as of today in France.  Almost the same number of cases as in April.
OMG, Second Wave, OMG, FEAR - DEATH, AHHHHHH
(We see cases because we're testing EVERYONE, even healthy people... which is, idiotic as well)

 

And here are daily deaths in France.

 

Where in the holy fuck, is the correlation between cases and deaths?

Seriously.  Where?

How about correlation between masks (which EVERYONE is wearing now) and cases?

 

It isn't there.

This is why this is a media driven pandemic. Not a medical one.

 

 

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Screen Shot 2020-08-29 at 10.44.45 AM.png

 

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15 minutes ago, Ncik said:

There's something not right with the France data.  The numbers shown from Wikipedia don't correspond with Worldometers which sources from official stats.

Also taking into consideration the generally accepted metric of a 14 to 28 day lag between cases and deaths the second curve is out of alignment.

My understanding is that France has started to ease restrictions.  Why would they do that on the basis of the data that you have posted?

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6 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

There's something not right with the France data.

A fine time to bring some critical analysis skills to the table.

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14 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

How do you define a denier?

Someone who says they are not going to post in Corona Anarchy threads any more, but does so anyway?

Today's deniers fall into several categories, but the largest group are the ones who doubt the rT-PCR test, claiming it is picking up every virus and not just the specific Covid-19 one.  To this group, the large spike in cases seen recently is just a result of people coming down with common colds, or people who have already had Covid-19 and have recovered and are no longer contagious.  This rationalization is used to suggest all the interventions being taken by public health officials are actually unnecessary, mask-wearing in particular.

They are not just ignoring the peer-reviewed science that supports the rT-PCR test, they are also ignoring the messages coming from doctors and nurses on the front lines, who are begging people to do whatever they can to avoid catching this virus.  

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2 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

Someone who says they are not going to post in Corona Anarchy threads any more, but does so anyway?

Today's deniers fall into several categories, but the largest group are the ones who doubt the rT-PCR test, claiming it is picking up every virus and not just the specific Covid-19 one.  To this group, the large spike in cases seen recently is just a result of people coming down with common colds, or people who have already had Covid-19 and have recovered and are no longer contagious.  This rationalization is used to suggest all the interventions being taken by public health officials are actually unnecessary, mask-wearing in particular.

They are not just ignoring the peer-reviewed science that supports the rT-PCR test, they are also ignoring the messages coming from doctors and nurses on the front lines, who are begging people to do whatever they can to avoid catching this virus.  

Cool so by that definition I'm not a denier.  

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The numbers shown from Wikipedia

seriously?

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17 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

There's something not right with the France data.  The numbers shown from Wikipedia don't correspond with Worldometers which sources from official stats.

Also taking into consideration the generally accepted metric of a 14 to 28 day lag between cases and deaths the second curve is out of alignment.

My understanding is that France has started to ease restrictions.  Why would they do that on the basis of the data that you have posted?

Dunno which worldometers or WHO data you're looking at...the trends are all the same.

WHO

image.thumb.png.69542778cdd20175b584532e80ebde7a.png

 

WoM

image.png.2ffd41c82eb2afcee67be6a5fa704292.png

 

Wikipedia

image.png.2ab5a844d3e5b84abd31abab73305b2c.png

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24 minutes ago, Ncik said:

Dunno which worldometers or WHO data you're looking at...the trends are all the same.

The trends are currently down however the point I was making was why is there not the standard lag between cases and deaths in France?

28 days between peaks?  Nope.

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7 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The trends are currently down however the point I was making was why is there not the standard lag between cases and deaths in France?

28 days between peaks?  Nope.

Time travel?

Maybe the experts know, but suspect it is something to do with the infected demographics and scale of this particular surge and changes to treatments, use your imagination. I've never seen an actual graph of infection-to-death time statistics based on individual cases, only agregate graphs which will hint at but not detail such a lag. Perhaps the experts are too busy dealing with the pandemic to fulfil our morbid curiousity, or we're just not privy to that information.

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I'd argue the data pretty clearly proves the points I've made all along.

In France: Daily case peak in November was 12x higher than the April peak.
1,200% higher!  
 

Daily deaths? 40% lower....

 

Were 1,200% more people sick with Covid in November than in April?
But, magically 40% less died?

Is that logical?
No, because, obviously, that defies any logic or data.


It certainly highlights that 'positive tests' don't correlate to actual cases of people being sick.
If it did, a lot more people would be dying.
 

 

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1 hour ago, BlatantEcho said:

Were 1,200% more people sick with Covid in November than in April?
But, magically 40% less died?

Is that logical?
No, because, obviously, that defies any logic or data.

Just because it defies your logic does not mean it defies actual logic. I'll give you some hints...

  1. The doctors and scientists are working hard to save lives and doing it effectively.
  2. The early waves wiped out a lot of vulnerable people, who can't die a second time.
  3. The remaining vulnerable are now forewarned and more protected than in the first waves.

It isn't fucking rocket science.

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On 8/26/2020 at 7:35 PM, Weyalan said:

Science really isn't that hard, bloke. The mask isn't supposed to filter your breathing in nor out, its supposed to reduce the outward effect of explosive events such as sneezing or coughing so that a social distance of 1.5m becomes reasonably effective. Refusing to wear a mask because it only helps others, not you, is selfish. If you don't get that you are either obfuscating madly or being deliberately recalcitrant. You choose.

You need to wear a mask in a nasty environment then tell me how effective they are.

My experience is if they don't stop dust, they aren't stopping a virus.

 

Slow down, limit.  Sure.  But to blindly think you're safe or saving others is pretty fucking silly.

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On 8/26/2020 at 7:35 PM, Weyalan said:

The mask isn't supposed to filter your breathing in nor out, 

And this just makes me chuckle

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6 hours ago, Hatin' life said:

You need to wear a mask in a nasty environment then tell me how effective they are.

My experience is if they don't stop dust, they aren't stopping a virus.

 

Slow down, limit.  Sure.  But to blindly think you're safe or saving others is pretty fucking silly.

So you accept "slow down" and "limit" but because masks aren't the 100% silver bullet (and I never implied they were, merely that they helped) you are dismissing them out of hand? Sweet narrative bro, how is that Kool Aid tasting today

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8 hours ago, Hatin' life said:

Slow down, limit.  Sure.

That's the point. It is a risk mitigation measure. It becomes even more effective the more people use masks and even better if they're used properly.

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59 minutes ago, Ncik said:

That's the point. It is a risk mitigation measure. It becomes even more effective the more people use masks and even better if they're used properly.

How hard is it to understand? I wear mine primarily to protect you. You wear yours primarily to protect me. If we both wear them, we both get some measure of protection.

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1 hour ago, accnick said:

How hard is it to understand? I wear mine primarily to protect you. You wear yours primarily to protect me. If we both wear them, we both get some measure of protection.

Try telling that to the knuckle-dragging, mouth breather up-page

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12 hours ago, Hatin' life said:

My experience is if they don't stop dust, they aren't stopping a virus.

So, some of the very best medical minds on the planet, the most highly trained experts on the subject of the corona virus in particular and epidemiology in general have researched the subject, have had their research reviewed by equally as eminent peers, and concluded that wearing masks help prevent the spread of corona virus. 

But you once sanded the bottom of a boat, and somehow this qualifies you to draw completely different conclusions on how a virus is spread. Fucking Brilliant.

YCMTSU

 

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3 minutes ago, Weyalan said:

So, some of the very best medical minds on the planet, the most highly trained experts on the subject of the corona virus in particular and epidemiology in general have researched the subject, have had their research reviewed by equally as eminent peers, and concluded that wearing masks help prevent the spread of corona virus. 

But you once sanded the bottom of a boat, and somehow this qualifies you to draw completely different conclusions on how a virus is spread. Fucking Brilliant.

YCMTSU

 

It's mind-boggling.:huh:

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The price of idiocy can be very high: death or, if you're lucky(?), possible permanent (or very long term) loss of smell and taste.

Pastor dies of COVID-19 weeks after Fontana megachurch reopened for indoor services, DEC. 3, 2020
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-12-03/megachurch-pastor-dies-of-covid-19-after-church-reopens-indoor-services

Quote

An associate pastor for a megachurch in San Bernardino County died of COVID-19 about a month after the facility reopened indoor services.

Bob Bryant of the Water of Life Community Church in Fontana tested positive for the coronavirus in November and soon developed an aggressive pneumonia in his lungs, according to a post on the church’s Facebook site. He then suffered a heart attack. He ultimately was placed on a ventilator and died Monday. He was 58.

 

COVID-19 Smell And Taste Loss: How Long It Lasts, And How To Deal With It12/03/2020
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/covid-19-smell-taste-loss-how-long_l_5fc5439dc5b63d1b770e8ef4

Quote

For millions of COVID-19 survivors, the struggle back to health often is slow and painful. And for many, that recovery comes with a lingering and disheartening symptom ― a loss of smell and taste. Just when the body needs nourishment to fight back against the disease, every bite of food is utterly tasteless.
[...]
“When this damage occurs as part of COVID, it tends to be a more extreme issue than when people lose those senses due to flu, colds or other respiratory issues,” Parma said.

The loss also tends to occur suddenly. “People will say, ‘I was sipping coffee, and it was delicious, and then suddenly I couldn’t smell or taste it,’” she said.

While there are many hypotheses about why this is occurring, Parma said that evidence now suggests the virus could be binding itself to the proteins of supporting cells that surround olfactory neurons. “When those cells are attacked by the virus, the neurons stop working,” she said.

There is no known cure for loss of smell and taste. But the body can — and sometimes does — heal itself, at least eventually, Parma said.

 

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16 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

For millions of COVID-19 survivors, the struggle back to health often is slow and painful. And for many, that recovery comes with a lingering and disheartening symptom ― a loss of smell and taste. Just when the body needs nourishment to fight back against the disease, every bite of food is utterly tasteless.

I can tell from your signature tags what your main political activism is.  However do you realise posting crap like this from the Huffpost of all publications actually diminishes NOT enhances what you are trying to achieve?  That is encouraging people to wear masks.

Why?  Because when you read past the sensational headline article (plus mandatory Support Group and Facebook page advert) and look at the FACTS you find that the symptom is not permanent and in fact is a relatively common symptom of a number of illnesses.  So sensationalising only serves to undermine your promotion of mask wearing!

BEFORE Covid-19 research studies estimate that the loss of taste and smell is present in 15-20% of the population at anyone time.  Or that 80% of those over 75 experience this phenomena without being infected by Covid-19.  From the British Medical Journal (somewhat more esteem than the Huffpost) - https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m2808

They also say the following:

What you need to know

  • Half of patients with covid-19 may lose sense of smell; guidance states that a new change or loss in sense of smell should prompt a period of self-isolation
  • Nine in 10 patients can expect substantial improvement in their sense of smell within four weeks
  • Most patients with loss of smell do not require further investigations or referral, although their covid-19 status should be established if possible
  • Treatment involves reassurance, olfactory training, safety advice, and topical corticosteroids—but oral prednisolone should be avoided where acute covid-19 infection is suspected

Or research from Harvard - https://hms.harvard.edu/news/how-covid-19-causes-loss-smell which concludes that the symptom is short lived and NOT long term.

“Our findings indicate that the novel coronavirus changes the sense of smell in patients not by directly infecting neurons but by affecting the function of supporting cells,” said senior study author Sandeep Robert Datta, associate professor of neurobiology in the Blavatnik Institute at HMS.

This implies that in most cases, SARS-CoV-2 infection is unlikely to permanently damage olfactory neural circuits and lead to persistent anosmia, Datta added, a condition that is associated with a variety of mental and social health issues, particularly depression and anxiety.

I think it’s good news, because once the infection clears, olfactory neurons don’t appear to need to be replaced or rebuilt from scratch,” he said. “But we need more data and a better understanding of the underlying mechanisms to confirm this conclusion.”

Some studies have hinted that anosmia in COVID-19 differs from anosmia caused by other viral infections, including by other coronaviruses.

For example, COVID-19 patients typically recover their sense of smell over the course of weeks—much faster than the months it can take to recover from anosmia caused by a subset of viral infections known to directly damage olfactory sensory neurons. In addition, many viruses cause temporary loss of smell by triggering upper respiratory issues such as stuffy nose.

 

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17 hours ago, Weyalan said:

 But you once sanded the bottom of a boat, and somehow this qualifies you to draw completely different conclusions on how a virus is spread. Fucking Brilliant.

YCMTSU

 

You can make up all the shit you like, and looks like you often do.  I live in dust 60-80 hours week.  Masks are borderline useless.  I've spent mountains of money filtering air.  The air turns over every seven minutes in my building. Why?  Because the only mask that works, nobody will wear.  I've rarely seen anyone wearing one outside of a paint booth, and certainly not on the street.  If it's not stopping dust, it's not stopping a virus.

You know what does work?  Staying the fuck away from people.

I don't have to, I've had hiccups more serious than the rona.  So I'm going to grind, while the scared sit in their houses pissing their pants like children.

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Science!  Adequate number of participants, control group, all variables EXCEPT whether a mask is worn accounted for.  Result- no statistically significant difference in infection rates given the stated confidence interval.  Don't get mad at me- this is real science carried on outside the political influences of the U.S.  I can find dozens of similar study results.  Why do the mandates continue when their ineffectiveness is well documented?  And why do folks resist and demean these results....often while claiming we need to "follow the science" out of the other side of their mouths?  

 

Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers: A Randomized Controlled Trial: Annals of Internal Medicine: Vol 0, No 0 (acpjournals.org) 

 

safe_image.jpg

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I found this a pretty good summary of what is known, how to treat, how to prevent, and our response to Covid.  Well written, reads easily, worth the time:

"This paper is divided into sections; first on Treatment and Prophylaxis, second on Public Health Measures, third on Public Health History and finally on Vaccination and Risk Assessment. All statements will be sourced in footnotes at the bottom of each page, which can be link-followed off the PDF copy." 

 

Covid-19 -- A White Paper - To @RealDonaldTrump and @CDC in [Market-Ticker] (market-ticker.org)

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1 hour ago, boatcat65 said:

Science!  Adequate number of participants, control group, all variables EXCEPT whether a mask is worn accounted for.  Result- no statistically significant difference in infection rates given the stated confidence interval.  Don't get mad at me- this is real science carried on outside the political influences of the U.S.  I can find dozens of similar study results.  Why do the mandates continue when their ineffectiveness is well documented?  And why do folks resist and demean these results....often while claiming we need to "follow the science" out of the other side of their mouths?  

 

Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers: A Randomized Controlled Trial: Annals of Internal Medicine: Vol 0, No 0 (acpjournals.org) 

 

safe_image.jpg

Did you actually read this study?  Though quite small, and certainly has limitations, the conclusion just confirms what everyone has been assuming - wearing a mask does not protect the wearer from covid.   

On the other hand: 

Limitation:

Inconclusive results, missing data, variable adherence, patient-reported findings on home tests, no blinding, and no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others.

No assessment was done of whether mask-wearing reduces transmission to others.   So, this study does not contraindicate mask wearing.  When a surgeon is wearing a mask in an operating room, it is worn to protect the patient, not the surgeon.

Please keep searching though, and let us know if you find a study that shows that mask-wearing does not reduce transmission from the mask-wearer.

 

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1 hour ago, boatcat65 said:

I found this a pretty good summary of what is known, how to treat, how to prevent, and our response to Covid.  Well written, reads easily, worth the time:

"This paper is divided into sections; first on Treatment and Prophylaxis, second on Public Health Measures, third on Public Health History and finally on Vaccination and Risk Assessment. All statements will be sourced in footnotes at the bottom of each page, which can be link-followed off the PDF copy." 

 

Covid-19 -- A White Paper - To @RealDonaldTrump and @CDC in [Market-Ticker] (market-ticker.org)

Why would anyone read an opinion piece on these topics?   Everyone is aware of the range of opinions.  Having "sourced statements" is meaningless - unless the sources are peer-reviewed science.  

The strategy used in this opinion piece is to sprinkle the text with occasional peer-reviewed science to give it the veneer of legitimacy.  Other sources include Faux News, and some very shady pseudo-science sites.  

You do realize that there are tons of people willing to emulate mikewof and write pages of prose to try to convince people of a completely false reality?  This is a stock QAnon strategy - make it long, sprinkle it with some truth, then go for the big conspiracy theory.  And, don't forget to remind people to "do your own research", "think for yourself" and "ignore the mainstream media."

As PT Barnum said, when it comes to objective reality, these people have found the "Way to the Egress."

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

Did you actually read this study?  Though quite small, and certainly has limitations, the conclusion just confirms what everyone has been assuming - wearing a mask does not protect the wearer from covid.   

On the other hand: 

Limitation:

Inconclusive results, missing data, variable adherence, patient-reported findings on home tests, no blinding, and no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others.

No assessment was done of whether mask-wearing reduces transmission to others.   So, this study does not contraindicate mask wearing.  When a surgeon is wearing a mask in an operating room, it is worn to protect the patient, not the surgeon.

Please keep searching though, and let us know if you find a study that shows that mask-wearing does not reduce transmission from the mask-wearer.

 

Its really simple. If virologists wear full-body, self-contained, positive-pressure suits to work with viruses, then a simple, often poorly fitted, paper or cloth mask isn’t going to do you any good.  The masks surgeons wear are for bacterial and liquid protection- they never claim they're for viruses which are 1/10 to 1/15 the size of a bacteria. Paper/cloth masks are only good for virtue-signaling and social manipulation by government. Science has backed this up for 5 decades as shown by over 40 legitimate studies, and further confirmed by the way viruses are actually handled in controlled situations.
 
The incontrovertible evidence is right in front of us- if social distancing and masks worked, we would have stopped COVID by now. But we haven't. Just like we haven't stopped the flu or the common cold. Thankfully Covid isn't nearly as dangerous for the vast majority of us as they would have us believe. 
 
As for reducing transmission from the mask-wearer to others how illogical can one be.  Covid isn't transmitted in water droplets, which masks admittedly slow/stop. It's by aerosol dispersion and can travel 30 meters or more.  What can go through the mask in one direction goes through in the other direction, just as easily- as the study in my original post confirms.  But I've found quite a bit of success throughout my life by keeping  an open mind and dealing in reality.  YOU show me a study that meets the standards you espouse and prove masks work.  You can't- and so won't.  As stated above, if masks and social distancing had any impact Covid would be gone.  It's not. Time to move on.
 
 
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2 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Why would anyone read an opinion piece on these topics?   Everyone is aware of the range of opinions.  Having "sourced statements" is meaningless - unless the sources are peer-reviewed science.  

The strategy used in this opinion piece is to sprinkle the text with occasional peer-reviewed science to give it the veneer of legitimacy.  Other sources include Faux News, and some very shady pseudo-science sites.  

You do realize that there are tons of people willing to emulate mikewof and write pages of prose to try to convince people of a completely false reality?  This is a stock QAnon strategy - make it long, sprinkle it with some truth, then go for the big conspiracy theory.  And, don't forget to remind people to "do your own research", "think for yourself" and "ignore the mainstream media."

As PT Barnum said, when it comes to objective reality, these people have found the "Way to the Egress."

It's always entertaining when folks openly confuse the messenger with the message, equate the two, then try to claim one discredits the other.  Intellectually void.  Maybe you're not up for reading the footnotes/sources, treating the paper as an introduction or pathway to information that can help you reach your own conclusions?  There's a lot to the current Covid situation.  Many can use a well formatted introduction to the salient issues and summary of the current best practices or understanding.  Nobody claims it's the final solution.  But I get the sense that more than anything you just need a pot to piss in, so go for it.  Just remember it's not all about you.

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Oregon doctor has license suspended after saying he and his staff don’t wear masks
https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2020/12/oregon-doctor-has-license-suspended-after-saying-he-and-his-staff-dont-wear-masks.html?outputType=amp

Quote

The Oregon Medical Board suspended the license of an Oregon doctor who said he refuses to wear a mask in his clinic while also encouraging others to not wear masks.

Dr. Steven LaTulippe told a pro-Trump rally in November that neither he nor his staff wears a mask while working in their Dallas, Ore. clinic. That violates a state order requiring health care workers to wear a face-covering in health care settings.

Members of the medical board voted Thursday evening to suspend LaTulippe’s license immediately. According to a statement on the Oregon Medical Board website, the suspension was issued “due to the board’s concern for the safety and welfare of licensee’s current and future patients.”
[...]
His anti-mask comments came during a “Stop the Steal” election rally in Salem on Nov. 7.
[...]
Despite his public statements urging people to not wear masks, LaTulippe told NBC News that he does ask patients who have suspected cases of COVID-19 to wear a mask in his clinic. He said he treats them after other patients have left for the day, and in a back room that is disinfected before and after use.

 

Another fucking Trump idiot slapped down.

 

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7 hours ago, boatcat65 said:

It's always entertaining when folks openly confuse the messenger with the message, equate the two, then try to claim one discredits the other.  Intellectually void.  Maybe you're not up for reading the footnotes/sources, treating the paper as an introduction or pathway to information that can help you reach your own conclusions?  There's a lot to the current Covid situation.  Many can use a well formatted introduction to the salient issues and summary of the current best practices or understanding.  Nobody claims it's the final solution.  But I get the sense that more than anything you just need a pot to piss in, so go for it.  Just remember it's not all about you.

Thank you for pointing out that I missed one of the QAnon memes - "draw your own conclusions".

As for your assertion that I can't find science that supports mask use, you couldn't be more wrong.

Here is an article in Nature, no less:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2#Sec3

That article is referenced in another article from UCSF that links to other science supporting mask use:  

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

Here is an interesting article that looks at how effective cloth masks are:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352431620301802

Now, STFU and put your mask on.

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3 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Thank you for pointing out that I missed one of the QAnon memes - "draw your own conclusions".

As for your assertion that I can't find science that supports mask use, you couldn't be more wrong.

Here is an article in Nature, no less:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2#Sec3

That article is referenced in another article from UCSF that links to other science supporting mask use:  

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

Here is an interesting article that looks at how effective cloth masks are:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352431620301802

Now, STFU and put your mask on.

From "Nature, no less:"  " .....but not in aerosols."

"Our findings indicate that surgical masks can efficaciously reduce the emission of influenza virus particles into the environment in respiratory droplets, but not in aerosols."

And....respiratory droplets aren't the issue.  Nobody disputes that.   Sneeze into your elbow if you are actively contagious.  But as for just breathing.... that thing you're doing 24/7.....when you're not sneezing... aerosols are still passing right through and around your poorly fitted mask and traveling up to 30 meters.

Now shut the fuck up, fool.  And try reading your own claims before you post them.  Idiots like you keep the lies alive.

Here's a "study" even you can understand- reality.  If masks and social distancing worked Covid would be gone- or at least severely diminished. And we would see differences between areas/countries that mask and those that don't.  But the rate of spread/infection follows the same pattern whether masks are involved or not.  No difference.  That's all the "science" you need.

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19 minutes ago, boatcat65 said:

A whole lot of bullshit.

 

Boy, you might be one prime example that Darwin doesn't always work as expected.

You don't know what you are tal