AJ Oliver

How did we get to this sorry state?

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Well, some of us attribute a good chunk of it to Mr. Newt Gingrich. 

Here is a NYT Op-ed  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/28/opinion/trump-newt-gingrich.html

And here is my commnent . . 

Many of us have been saying this for a long time, but thanks to Ms. Senior for highlighting it. And the readers who also pointed to the role of Rush Limbaugh were spot on. But to that den of demons, do not forget the name of Frank Luntz - the pollster who tested scientifically the evil efficacy of the words used by Gingrich and others to incite maximum hatred. He is apparently not a Trumpista, but clearly helped to pave the way for him.  

Note to self - Got to read that Julian Zelizer book cited in the article 

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Many of you are probably too young to remember, but 

there was a time when USAeans who disagreed could have 

mutually respectful exchanges of views. (Not always, the rapid Reich racists and Nazis have 

always been around.) 

Today that is much rarer, thanks in large part to Gingrich and his Elk. 

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39 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

... He is apparently not a Trumpista, but clearly helped to pave the way for him.  

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Luntz is a Shitstain courtesan.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/27/frank-luntz-trump-white-house-1238283

If anyone was going to be a 'principled' conservative, it was never ever going to be Luntz or Rove. Ever.

Where do we go next.

I never supported him. 1-2 years.

He wasn't that bad. The duration.

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16 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Many of you are probably too young to remember, but 

there was a time when USAeans who disagreed could have 

mutually respectful exchanges of views. (Not always, the rapid Reich racists and Nazis have 

always been around.) 

Today that is much rarer, thanks in large part to Gingrich and his Elk. 

 

5C20B8F9-B9A3-492B-A577-A633345CA7FD.jpeg

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28 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Luntz is a Shitstain courtesan.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/27/frank-luntz-trump-white-house-1238283

If anyone was going to be a 'principled' conservative, it was never ever going to be Luntz or Rove. Ever.

Where do we go next.

I never supported him. 1-2 years.

He wasn't that bad. The duration.

Go watch “Revenge of the Nerds.”  That is a good analogy to the state of the parties at the moment, assuming you pump some white power crap into the jocks. 
 

We got there by pandering to the lowest common denominator and treating ignorance as having the same validity as intelligence. 

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No one wants to mention Grover Norquist?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist

"I'm not in favor of abolishing the government. I just want to shrink it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub."

He taught millions that government is evil and taxes must never be raised.  

 

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I think it is fine to blame politicians and pundits, they have a share of the blame. But, I think there is something more fundamental happening and it involves the people. The demographics of the US have changed whether it is colour, ethnicity, sexuality - even aging has happened. The country has not dealt very well with these changes. Other countries, Canada and Oz come to mind have had similar demographic changes but have handled them better. It will take someone beyond my pay grade to figure out what has happened.

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15 minutes ago, Bugsy said:

No one wants to mention Grover Norquist?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist

"I'm not in favor of abolishing the government. I just want to shrink it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub."

He taught millions that government is evil and taxes must never be raised.  

 

Yep, he also showed many many people that you can be a fat stupid turd of a human being, and make yourself rich and powerful by pedddling lies and hatred to "conservatives." He came to Washington with the message that "Taxes Are Bad!" and ironically helped defeat Bush Sr putting Clinton into office and producing the only real deficit reduction in my lifetime... and gawd how he HATED them!

The USA has become a land of fat stupid whiny people. It's not so much that they are selfish, it's that they have been raised on a diet of entertainment so vapid and self-referential that their horizon ends at the snack drawer. It is a lesson to the rest of the world, this is what happens when you raise your kids by shoving them in front of a TV or video game.

- DSK

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I have personally witnessed the continuing shift to the right for decades - imo it's pandering to the aging white population's fear that their way of life is being destroyed. As mentioned above it has been a calculated effort I first noticed from Rush Limbaugh (who I think has less scruples than Trump and it was always about hitching his failed career wagon for the money of which he made a shit load of).  Bring on FOX and it was off to the races. Trump has capitalized on these fears and by his "fake news" shtick has convinced these people they are under assault by the radical left. Deep State! 

Hopefully things are changing, a recent FOX poll shows Trump down 1 point - in Texas. If Texas flips I look forward to the wailing and gnashing of teeth by the angry old white people.  Like Obama redux.  Bring it on.

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2 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

I think it is fine to blame politicians and pundits, they have a share of the blame. But, I think there is something more fundamental happening and it involves the people. The demographics of the US have changed whether it is colour, ethnicity, sexuality - even aging has happened. The country has not dealt very well with these changes. Other countries, Canada and Oz come to mind have had similar demographic changes but have handled them better. It will take someone beyond my pay grade to figure out what has happened.

Agree with this.  It's a bit of a chicken or egg argument.  Did the shit pols & pundits rise because the people became stupid and lazy?  Or did the people become stupid and lazy because of the shit politicians and pundits?  

I would say it was a healthy dose of both.  However, we got here though..... at the end of the day, in a healthy democracy - it is ultimately WE THE PEOPLE's responsibility to sift through the bullshit and make better decisions via the ballot box.  If our country is in shit, then it is us who allowed it to get to this point.  There will always be politicians and pundits and other actors who will attempt to take advantage of the lazy, the uninformed, the weak, and the disengaged. 

The ONLY defense against that, IMHO, is an engaged and informed voting public.  We have neither.  Certainly not on the scale to counter our current and long building slide into mediocrity.  We have people like Shaggy and rzr who advocate simply voting by the letter after a name on the ballot.  The details are too difficult to discern and they can't be bothered to have to go to the small effort it takes to be informed.  This is why I strongly advocate for removing the party affiliation from the ballot.  It would prevent the ignorant and the lazy fucks from simply voting straight down the party line with no thought whatsoever as to the candidate's position.  I would rather they just stayed home, rather than cast a vote with no thought or understanding of what that vote means.  

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

The USA has become a land of fat stupid whiny people. It's not so much that they are selfish, it's that they have been raised on a diet of entertainment so vapid and self-referential that their horizon ends at the snack drawer. It is a lesson to the rest of the world, this is what happens when you raise your kids by shoving them in front of a TV or video game.

- DSK

Funny, I was thinking the other day that the rise of the Karens & Darrens may well correlate nicely with the time when disciplining your kids first went out the door and 'my Johnny can do no wrong' took its place.

Fast forward and you end up with a bunch of self-entitled fuckwits.

I still think a lot of stuff is targeting symptoms and what needs to be done is target fundamental electoral reform. End gerrymandering and voter suppression, cap political donations by individuals, ban outright donations by incorporated entities, have some form of truth in advertising law maybe but I think this one impossible frankly. Perhaps term limits and a reasonably robust recall mechanism. Citizen initiated referenda to force changes if necessary.

FKT

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

The USA has become a land of fat stupid whiny people. It's not so much that they are selfish, it's that they have been raised on a diet of entertainment so vapid and self-referential that their horizon ends at the snack drawer. It is a lesson to the rest of the world, this is what happens when you raise your kids by shoving them in front of a TV or video game.

^^^^^This. And it’s not just USA. The whole “free” world suffers from the same malaise to a greater or lesser degree.

All bread and circuses.

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Drunk, fat and stupid.  Thank you Dean Wormer.

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2 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

I think it is fine to blame politicians and pundits, they have a share of the blame. But, I think there is something more fundamental happening and it involves the people. The demographics of the US have changed whether it is colour, ethnicity, sexuality - even aging has happened. The country has not dealt very well with these changes. Other countries, Canada and Oz come to mind have had similar demographic changes but have handled them better. It will take someone beyond my pay grade to figure out what has happened.

Furthermore, to the question of "what happened" with our issues with race, sex, culture, ethnicity, etc. and why are we different in outcomes to other developed countries...... I would say the short answer is because we use identity politics and labels as a weapon and a wedge whereas other countries don't make a big deal out of those discriminators.  

I've long said that the labels and the hyphenated cultures are what are killing us.  We don't think of ourselves as simply American anymore and all in this together.  Instead we have to set ourselves apart from others as a competition or a zero-sum game.  If my tribe is winning, yours is losing.  We have African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Latino-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Cuban-Americans ad nauseum.  What we don't have anymore are just "Americans".   We have trans-men, trans-women, gay men, lesbian women, gender seeking...... and on and on and on.  And it all has to be up front and in your face and shoved down your throat.  I frankly don't care if you are an Muslim, African-American, pre-op trans-woman who is explorer her gender and demands to be called "they".  Can you get the job done?  Are you a good person or a douchebag?  Can you get along with others?  Do you kick puppies?  Those things are far more important to me that whatever the hell label you want to assign to yourself.  Are you an American?  If yes, then end of discussion because the rest is irrelevant in greater society and may only really be important to you and your Native black Asian, LGBTQIA Sharia studies class on Thursday nights.  

But these labels and our desire to self-segregate into tribes do nothing but divide us.  We were once a "melting pot" where all cultures got melted into the greater whole and the end result was an American who was greater than the sum of the parts.  Now all we are is a polluted river where all the solid waste floats around together but never really mixes.  And it's perpetuated by official gov't policy where everyone is labeled by skin color, ethnicity, religion, culture, sex, etc., further exacerbating the divide.

I recently asked Ish (IIRC) what Canadians call their African, Asian or Middle Eastern immigrants who are now citizens.  He said they just called them "Canadians".  What a novel concept!  Imagine just being part of the greater nation rather than your tribe as the primary identifier.  

THAT is how we got here!

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

The USA has become a land of fat stupid whiny people. It's not so much that they are selfish, it's that they have been raised on a diet of entertainment so vapid and self-referential that their horizon ends at the snack drawer. It is a lesson to the rest of the world, this is what happens when you raise your kids by shoving them in front of a TV or video game.

Ding!  It's not often that we agree on much, but on this one - we are in complete agreement.  

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3 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Go watch “Revenge of the Nerds.”  That is a good analogy to the state of the parties at the moment, assuming you pump some white power crap into the jocks. 
 

We got there by pandering to the lowest common denominator and treating ignorance as having the same validity as intelligence. 

The people may have equalised stupidity and intelligence.

The elites just saw stupidity as a thing to take advantage of.

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9 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Furthermore, to the question of "what happened" with our issues with race, sex, culture, ethnicity, etc. and why are we different in outcomes to other developed countries...... I would say the short answer is because we use identity politics and labels as a weapon and a wedge whereas other countries don't make a big deal out of those discriminators.  

I've long said that the labels and the hyphenated cultures are what are killing us.  We don't think of ourselves as simply American anymore and all in this together.  Instead we have to set ourselves apart from others as a competition or a zero-sum game.  If my tribe is winning, yours is losing.  We have African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Latino-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Cuban-Americans ad nauseum.  What we don't have anymore are just "Americans".   We have trans-men, trans-women, gay men, lesbian women, gender seeking...... and on and on and on.  And it all has to be up front and in your face and shoved down your throat.  I frankly don't care if you are an Muslim, African-American, pre-op trans-woman who is explorer her gender and demands to be called "they".  Can you get the job done?  Are you a good person or a douchebag?  Can you get along with others?  Do you kick puppies?  Those things are far more important to me that whatever the hell label you want to assign to yourself.  Are you an American?  If yes, then end of discussion because the rest is irrelevant in greater society and may only really be important to you and your Native black Asian, LGBTQIA Sharia studies class on Thursday nights.  

But these labels and our desire to self-segregate into tribes do nothing but divide us.  We were once a "melting pot" where all cultures got melted into the greater whole and the end result was an American who was greater than the sum of the parts.  Now all we are is a polluted river where all the solid waste floats around together but never really mixes.  And it's perpetuated by official gov't policy where everyone is labeled by skin color, ethnicity, religion, culture, sex, etc., further exacerbating the divide.

I recently asked Ish (IIRC) what Canadians call their African, Asian or Middle Eastern immigrants who are now citizens.  He said they just called them "Canadians".  What a novel concept!  Imagine just being part of the greater nation rather than your tribe as the primary identifier.  

THAT is how we got here!

Weren't you the guy that said black people would be better off if they named their kids normal-sounding names?

And also weren't you the guy that when referring to black people, you used to use names like "Laquishina" or something similar?

"What we don't have anymore are just "Americans".,,,your quote....

 

I could be wrong...maybe I mixed you up with somebody else.

 

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21 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Funny, I was thinking the other day that the rise of the Karens & Darrens may well correlate nicely with the time when disciplining your kids first went out the door and 'my Johnny can do no wrong' took its place.

Fast forward and you end up with a bunch of self-entitled fuckwits.

I still think a lot of stuff is targeting symptoms and what needs to be done is target fundamental electoral reform. End gerrymandering and voter suppression, cap political donations by individuals, ban outright donations by incorporated entities, have some form of truth in advertising law maybe but I think this one impossible frankly. Perhaps term limits and a reasonably robust recall mechanism. Citizen initiated referenda to force changes if necessary.

FKT

Agree with all.  I guarantee you everyone of those Karen's has a participation trophy in their room somewhere.  

And totally agree with the need for the reforms you mention.  I've said all of that in the past here many times.  The issue is it requires the very politicians that need to be muzzled to put those limits on themselves.  Never going to happen.  And the issue with citizen initiated referenda is that while it might work at the local level - I don't think there is any mechanism in our Big C to do the same at the national level.  Congress themselves would have to enact it.  OR the Big C would need to change, which again would mean that the politicians themselves would have to agree to it.  I just don't see it.

Hence why I more and more am resigned to thinking that BTBD (figuratively of course) really is going to be the only way we get any real lasting change.  

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9 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

How many Americans died of gun violence 244 years ago?

About 6800 or so.....

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38 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Bravo's meme is short a few years ....

This is a surprise? Bravo's short a few sandwiches for the picnic too.

FKT

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2 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Furthermore, to the question of "what happened" with our issues with race, sex, culture, ethnicity, etc. and why are we different in outcomes to other developed countries...... I would say the short answer is because we use identity politics and labels as a weapon and a wedge whereas other countries don't make a big deal out of those discriminators.  

I've long said that the labels and the hyphenated cultures are what are killing us.  We don't think of ourselves as simply American anymore and all in this together.  Instead we have to set ourselves apart from others as a competition or a zero-sum game.  If my tribe is winning, yours is losing.  We have African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Latino-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Cuban-Americans ad nauseum.  What we don't have anymore are just "Americans".   We have trans-men, trans-women, gay men, lesbian women, gender seeking...... and on and on and on.  And it all has to be up front and in your face and shoved down your throat.  I frankly don't care if you are an Muslim, African-American, pre-op trans-woman who is explorer her gender and demands to be called "they".  Can you get the job done?  Are you a good person or a douchebag?  Can you get along with others?  Do you kick puppies?  Those things are far more important to me that whatever the hell label you want to assign to yourself.  Are you an American?  If yes, then end of discussion because the rest is irrelevant in greater society and may only really be important to you and your Native black Asian, LGBTQIA Sharia studies class on Thursday nights.  

But these labels and our desire to self-segregate into tribes do nothing but divide us.  We were once a "melting pot" where all cultures got melted into the greater whole and the end result was an American who was greater than the sum of the parts.  Now all we are is a polluted river where all the solid waste floats around together but never really mixes.  And it's perpetuated by official gov't policy where everyone is labeled by skin color, ethnicity, religion, culture, sex, etc., further exacerbating the divide.

I recently asked Ish (IIRC) what Canadians call their African, Asian or Middle Eastern immigrants who are now citizens.  He said they just called them "Canadians".  What a novel concept!  Imagine just being part of the greater nation rather than your tribe as the primary identifier.  

THAT is how we got here!

I have to disagree with Ish a bit on this one. To me Canadians often are hyphenated (Indian-Canadian, Chinese-Canadian, African-Canadian, etc) but for the most part it does not matter. Identities can be even more specific. I taught in a high school that was more than 50% Chinese but there were sub-groups of the Chinese - railway generation (also called bananas), Hong Kong, mainland, Taiwanese, even Chinese who got kicked out of Jamaica after independence. These groups often had their differences but ultimately it did not matter. I remember one year a math teacher who was Ukrainian descent was teaching a bunch of girls how to make Ukrainian Easter eggs. The kids were from all over the world, there were even three girls from South Africa (white, black, and coloured). In a strange and wonderful way it made a lot of sense for these kids to be learning a totally alien cultural tradition and doing it very well as I remember. Being different isn't the problem, it is what significance the differences have that matters. It is a bit of a hoary old idea but if the US is thought of as the melting pot, except it isn't ask people who are different, Canada is a tossed salad,  or mosaic. The differences are just handled differently.

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Wowser - a bunch of thoughtful comments . . (Ok, not BB) 

I would have chipped in, to the best of my poor ability, but I was smart enough first . .  

to go for a salubrious and beauteous sail on the Sweetwater Seas. 

Back attcha por la manana 

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8 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Luntz is a Shitstain courtesan.

Thanks for the correction . . 

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2 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

I have to disagree with Ish a bit on this one. To me Canadians often are hyphenated (Indian-Canadian, Chinese-Canadian, African-Canadian, etc) but for the most part it does not matter. Identities can be even more specific. I taught in a high school that was more than 50% Chinese but there were sub-groups of the Chinese - railway generation (also called bananas), Hong Kong, mainland, Taiwanese, even Chinese who got kicked out of Jamaica after independence. These groups often had their differences but ultimately it did not matter. I remember one year a math teacher who was Ukrainian descent was teaching a bunch of girls how to make Ukrainian Easter eggs. The kids were from all over the world, there were even three girls from South Africa (white, black, and coloured). In a strange and wonderful way it made a lot of sense for these kids to be learning a totally alien cultural tradition and doing it very well as I remember. Being different isn't the problem, it is what significance the differences have that matters. It is a bit of a hoary old idea but if the US is thought of as the melting pot, except it isn't ask people who are different, Canada is a tossed salad,  or mosaic. The differences are just handled differently.

Well wow, perhaps I'm misinterpreting what your suggesting.

Sorry, I'm born and raised here on the Canadian west coast, ive never once heard anyone called a "hyphenated Canadian" name? 

It must be a Toronto thing.

You would never hear that term used out west here. I never have.

 

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Why did people elect Trump? Because he's rich.  The fixation that having money means you must be someone to aspire to is farcical, yet entrenched into Western psyche.

It's drummed into your kids at school, its how you are perceived in modern society, people will want to be near you just because you are rich.

It doesn't matter if you have no admirable character traits. People will forgive a fuck ton of mannerisms they would not tolerate from a neighbour or friend, but add in the signs of wealth and your average seemingly intelligent chap will toss his principles out of the window without a second thought and forgive all manner of evil or cuntish behaviour.

Maybe, just maybe, the guy with the average shoes, boring car, and a genuine smile on his face would be a 100% better proposition for your daughter to live her life with. If he was given a chance. 

But due to our modern day barometer of wealth equals admiration and replaces common decency, your reap what you sow. It sucks for the US they have become the poster boy for what happens when you start down that path, where money near becomes its own religion.  

If we teach our kids about showing respect and decency and how their treatment of others is what they are measured against, we may, just may, breed out the opportunities for arseholes like Trump from taking root.      

I don't begrudge wealth per se, and am thankful for what I have made and working hard to be good at what you do, that's admirable. But wealth should never be used as a barometer for admiration or respect. History has proven the moment we do it ends up in tears.     

When you worship the dollar at the expense of all other values, no good comes of it. Ever.

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53 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Why did people elect Trump? Because he's rich.  The fixation that having money means you must be someone to aspire to is farcical, yet entrenched into Western psyche.

It's drummed into your kids at school, its how you are perceived in modern society, people will want to be near you just because you are rich.

It doesn't matter if you have no admirable character traits. People will forgive a fuck ton of mannerisms they would not tolerate from a neighbour or friend, but add in the signs of wealth and your average seemingly intelligent chap will toss his principles out of the window without a second thought and forgive all manner of evil or cuntish behaviour.

Kerry Packer being a prime example. A quite monstrous bully, just like his father. His money allowed him to get away with a huge amount of shit.

FKT

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6 hours ago, Keith said:

Well wow, perhaps I'm misinterpreting what your suggesting.

Sorry, I'm born and raised here on the Canadian west coast, ive never once heard anyone called a "hyphenated Canadian" name? 

It must be a Toronto thing.

You would never hear that term used out west here. I never have.

 

It is regional only to the extent that some cities including Vancouver and Toronto have a lot more diversity than others.. We have lots of hyphenated Canadians, but it generally does not matter although there are exceptions the Air India crash being the most glaring. Multicultural and other social differences add to what Canada is rather than cause problems. Most of those at Toronto's huge Caribana and Pride parades are not from the Caribbean or gay.

I did a 10 second Google and got the http://italiancanadianclubguelph.ca which apparently started in 1952.

Here is the Muslim Canadian Club 

 

And in Victoria the Chinese Canadian Cultural Association http://chinatown.library.uvic.ca/index.html%3Fq=chinese_canadian_cultural_association.html

The UBC Persian Club, great web address Iran.ca

https://www.iran.ca/en/organizers/british-columbia/vancouver/event-organizer/ubc-persian-club/

The Snowlion Club is a Tibetan arts collective in Toronto.

I think you need to get out more often

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17 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Well, some of us attribute a good chunk of it to Mr. Newt Gingrich. 

Here is a NYT Op-ed  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/28/opinion/trump-newt-gingrich.html

And here is my commnent . . 

Many of us have been saying this for a long time, but thanks to Ms. Senior for highlighting it. And the readers who also pointed to the role of Rush Limbaugh were spot on. But to that den of demons, do not forget the name of Frank Luntz - the pollster who tested scientifically the evil efficacy of the words used by Gingrich and others to incite maximum hatred. He is apparently not a Trumpista, but clearly helped to pave the way for him.  

Note to self - Got to read that Julian Zelizer book cited in the article 

There's no doubt in my mind Gingrich is ground zero for the burn the house down attitude today's Republican.  The Party was initially afraid to adopt such a selfish and destructive attitude but Gingrich was shameless in his campaign. 

From that movement also came Grover Norquist, who disguised his campaign to cut taxes for the rich into a package touted as a movement to protect all taxpayers.  He intimidated Republicans to sign his "Taxpayer Protection Pledge" by promising to primary them out of office.  At one time he was said to be the most powerful man in Washington.

 

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2 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

It is regional only to the extent that some cities including Vancouver and Toronto have a lot more diversity than others.. We have lots of hyphenated Canadians, but it generally does not matter although there are exceptions the Air India crash being the most glaring. Multicultural and other social differences add to what Canada is rather than cause problems. Most of those at Toronto's huge Caribana and Pride parades are not from the Caribbean or gay.

I did a 10 second Google and got the http://italiancanadianclubguelph.ca which apparently started in 1952.

Here is the Muslim Canadian Club 

 

And in Victoria the Chinese Canadian Cultural Association http://chinatown.library.uvic.ca/index.html%3Fq=chinese_canadian_cultural_association.html

The UBC Persian Club, great web address Iran.ca

https://www.iran.ca/en/organizers/british-columbia/vancouver/event-organizer/ubc-persian-club/

The Snowlion Club is a Tibetan arts collective in Toronto.

I think you need to get out more often

Yes, I see that, club affiliations, so what?

just like Vancouver Canuck's alumni hockey players... 

But ive never heard the "hyphenated Canadian" term used in regular conversation. 

Certainly not out west here, it would be very, very unusual to hear anyone say "hey your a Scottish,dutch, Irish,Fijian,Filipino,Indian,British, Canadian, eh".

 

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7 hours ago, Keith said:

Yes, I see that, club affiliations, so what?

just like Vancouver Canuck's alumni hockey players... 

But ive never heard the "hyphenated Canadian" term used in regular conversation. 

Certainly not out west here, it would be very, very unusual to hear anyone say "hey your a Scottish,dutch, Irish,Fijian,Filipino,Indian,British, Canadian, eh".

 

Exactly.  I was very clear that there is no issue with celebrating your own heritage and culture.  Just that when it comes down to everyday living your life, those differences don't need to be highlighted and crammed down other's throats.  Those differences being constantly highlighted and talked about in the US is part of what drives the division here.  How does someone being an African-murican, Mexican-'Murican, Asian-Murican have fuck all to do with everyday life and work and play.  If I'm working next to someone in the office, does their status as a african-murican matter to the job?  Does it make them a better or worse teacher, technician, engineer, computer geek, pilot, soldier, etc?  No, not one fucking scintilla does it matter.  We should think of ourselves as all one nation, not a nation built of many disparate tribes who have nothing in common with each other.  But that's exactly what is being pushed these days and it's been going on for a long time and getting worse.  

A pox on you culture warriors of all stripes and colors.  Just "be" and fucking get over the differences.

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19 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Why did people elect Trump? Because he's rich.  The fixation that having money means you must be someone to aspire to is farcical, yet entrenched into Western psyche.

It's drummed into your kids at school, its how you are perceived in modern society, people will want to be near you just because you are rich.

It doesn't matter if you have no admirable character traits. People will forgive a fuck ton of mannerisms they would not tolerate from a neighbour or friend, but add in the signs of wealth and your average seemingly intelligent chap will toss his principles out of the window without a second thought and forgive all manner of evil or cuntish behaviour.

When you worship the dollar at the expense of all other values, no good comes of it. Ever.

He is believed to be rich.  That always has seemed to be enough to work a scam.

Many people are saying he is not.  His suits are certainly evidence of that. 

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19 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Why did people elect Trump? Because he's rich.

 

Hilary Clinton had the entire democrat machine behind her, she outspent Trump, etc....  and she still lost.  Trump won because he bucked the norms and appealed to the everyday Jane and Joe, though it was BS...  Is he rich, yea, but some folks just wanted an even playing field so they can have their little piece of paradise, and that is the is story he sold.

If the democrats put up anyone else besides Clinton I would have voted for them over the pothead from New Mexico..  And I don't think I am alone here.

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1 hour ago, nacradriver said:

Hilary Clinton had the entire democrat machine behind her, she outspent Trump, etc....  and she still lost.  Trump won because he bucked the norms and appealed to the everyday Jane and Joe, though it was BS...  Is he rich, yea, but some folks just wanted an even playing field so they can have their little piece of paradise, and that is the is story he sold.

If the democrats put up anyone else besides Clinton I would have voted for them over the pothead from New Mexico..  And I don't think I am alone here.

Trump was elected because he was the "Celebrity du jour." the TV star.

Unfortunately the American cultural fascination is with the celebrity elite, movie stars, successful entertainers,  all dream to be one of them.............."Celebrity du jour" 

Whose next, The rock, or a Kardashian, or ????? 

troubling.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Burning Man said:

 Those differences being constantly highlighted and talked about in the US is part of what drives the division here.  How does someone being an African-murican, Mexican-'Murican, Asian-Murican have fuck all to do with everyday life and work and play.    We should think of ourselves as all one nation, not a nation built of many disparate tribes who have nothing in common with each other. 

A pox on you culture warriors of all stripes and colors.  Just "be" and fucking get over the differences.

Well, you have a sorta point, even if it is off topic. 

Mostly I would point out that nobody, but nobody, plays identity politics like the white nationalist GOPPER Trumpista Reich. 

Lots of countries have learned to deal with ethnic diversity - it's just a fact of demographic life 

Why cannot we? 

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On 6/29/2020 at 1:33 PM, AJ Oliver said:

Well, some of us attribute a good chunk of it to Mr. Newt Gingrich. 

Here is a NYT Op-ed  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/28/opinion/trump-newt-gingrich.html

And here is my commnent . . 

Many of us have been saying this for a long time, but thanks to Ms. Senior for highlighting it. And the readers who also pointed to the role of Rush Limbaugh were spot on. But to that den of demons, do not forget the name of Frank Luntz - the pollster who tested scientifically the evil efficacy of the words used by Gingrich and others to incite maximum hatred. He is apparently not a Trumpista, but clearly helped to pave the way for him.  

Note to self - Got to read that Julian Zelizer book cited in the article 

So you think DEM policies had nothing to do with Hillary losing the 2016 election?

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On 6/29/2020 at 2:06 PM, AJ Oliver said:

Many of you are probably too young to remember, but 

there was a time when USAeans who disagreed could have 

mutually respectful exchanges of views. (Not always, the rapid Reich racists and Nazis have 

always been around.) 

Today that is much rarer, thanks in large part to Gingrich and his Elk. 

Oh the irony...

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On 6/29/2020 at 2:23 PM, BravoBravo said:

 

5C20B8F9-B9A3-492B-A577-A633345CA7FD.jpeg

For sure.   How to take the guns away - create a polo cal firestorm around any and every reason imaginable.

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On 6/29/2020 at 6:42 PM, Ease the sheet. said:

How many Americans died of gun violence 244 years ago?

A whole lot of them.

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21 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Well, you have a sorta point, even if it is off topic. 

Mostly I would point out that nobody, but nobody, plays identity politics like the white nationalist GOPPER Trumpista Reich. 

Lots of countries have learned to deal with ethnic diversity - it's just a fact of demographic life 

Why cannot we? 

Because of the "success" mantra. 

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On 6/30/2020 at 5:23 AM, BravoBravo said:

 

5C20B8F9-B9A3-492B-A577-A633345CA7FD.jpeg

Now let's examine that a little.:rolleyes:

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9 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

So you think DEM policies had nothing to do with Hillary losing the 2016 election?

Well, ah, you are sort of 25 years off topic . .  

But actually, it was around that time that the Gingrich and the US media Reich 

began a 20+ year campaign to demonize the Clintons which succeeded to the point 

that many voters actually thought that the Drumph was more honest than HRC. 

Which is astonishing 

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11 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

So you think DEM policies had nothing to do with Hillary losing the 2016 election?

Nope. We had a centrist pragmatic government that reduced the deficit and invested in infrastructure, while also supporitng the military-industrial complex in the style to which it's been accustomed. You hated it. Then we had a Repub gang that ignored terrorist threat until it crash airplanes into our buildings, then invaded a country that had nothing to do with it, then crashed the economy. You loved it.

Then we had another centrist pragmatist gov't that reached across the aisle to try and solve problems... you REALLY fucking hated that one. That gov't pulled the country out of the crash, enacted a work-around for for the flaming mess of US health care, etc etc, while also supporting the military-industrial complex... and you hated it so bad that nothing would do but for you and your elk to elect a racist crook who lies about a plague and sells our soldiers lives to Putin, among many other crimes against the nation.

So no, Hillary's proposed policies had nothing to do with her losing the 2016 election

- DSK

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22 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Why did people elect Trump? Because he's rich.  The fixation that having money means you must be someone to aspire to is farcical, yet entrenched into Western psyche.

It's drummed into your kids at school, its how you are perceived in modern society, people will want to be near you just because you are rich.

It doesn't matter if you have no admirable character traits. People will forgive a fuck ton of mannerisms they would not tolerate from a neighbour or friend, but add in the signs of wealth and your average seemingly intelligent chap will toss his principles out of the window without a second thought and forgive all manner of evil or cuntish behaviour.

Maybe, just maybe, the guy with the average shoes, boring car, and a genuine smile on his face would be a 100% better proposition for your daughter to live her life with. If he was given a chance. 

But due to our modern day barometer of wealth equals admiration and replaces common decency, your reap what you sow. It sucks for the US they have become the poster boy for what happens when you start down that path, where money near becomes its own religion.  

If we teach our kids about showing respect and decency and how their treatment of others is what they are measured against, we may, just may, breed out the opportunities for arseholes like Trump from taking root.      

I don't begrudge wealth per se, and am thankful for what I have made and working hard to be good at what you do, that's admirable. But wealth should never be used as a barometer for admiration or respect. History has proven the moment we do it ends up in tears.     

When you worship the dollar at the expense of all other values, no good comes of it. Ever.

That’s not why Trump was elected.  

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31 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Nope. We had a centrist pragmatic government that reduced the deficit and invested in infrastructure, while also supporitng the military-industrial complex in the style to which it's been accustomed. You hated it. Then we had a Repub gang that ignored terrorist threat until it crash airplanes into our buildings, then invaded a country that had nothing to do with it, then crashed the economy. You loved it.

Then we had another centrist pragmatist gov't that reached across the aisle to try and solve problems... you REALLY fucking hated that one. That gov't pulled the country out of the crash, enacted a work-around for for the flaming mess of US health care, etc etc, while also supporting the military-industrial complex... and you hated it so bad that nothing would do but for you and your elk to elect a racist crook who lies about a plague and sells our soldiers lives to Putin, among many other crimes against the nation.

So no, Hillary's proposed policies had nothing to do with her losing the 2016 election

- DSK

That’s not why Trump was elected either.  You guys haven’t seriously looked at why he was elected have you. You think it’s all DEM vs REP but it’s not.

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Has anyone posited the concept that you, in fact, deserve this shit?

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On 6/29/2020 at 4:17 PM, Burning Man said:

Agree with this.  It's a bit of a chicken or egg argument.  Did the shit pols & pundits rise because the people became stupid and lazy?  Or did the people become stupid and lazy because of the shit politicians and pundits?  

I would say it was a healthy dose of both.  However, we got here though..... at the end of the day, in a healthy democracy - it is ultimately WE THE PEOPLE's responsibility to sift through the bullshit and make better decisions via the ballot box.  If our country is in shit, then it is us who allowed it to get to this point.  There will always be politicians and pundits and other actors who will attempt to take advantage of the lazy, the uninformed, the weak, and the disengaged. 

The ONLY defense against that, IMHO, is an engaged and informed voting public.  We have neither.  Certainly not on the scale to counter our current and long building slide into mediocrity.  We have people like Shaggy and rzr who advocate simply voting by the letter after a name on the ballot.  The details are too difficult to discern and they can't be bothered to have to go to the small effort it takes to be informed.  This is why I strongly advocate for removing the party affiliation from the ballot.  It would prevent the ignorant and the lazy fucks from simply voting straight down the party line with no thought whatsoever as to the candidate's position.  I would rather they just stayed home, rather than cast a vote with no thought or understanding of what that vote means.  

You can’t understand the whole point of voting anti-R. The party is a traitorous poison selling out the country for power. This election is exactly what you wanted, burn the R party to the ground.

Then, prosecute the shit out of the traitors and the grifters. Impeach the unqualified judges. Clean the shit up. 

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On 6/29/2020 at 4:42 PM, Ease the sheet. said:

How many Americans died of gun violence 244 years ago?

~7,000?  Give or take.   I suppose some of that Was due to canon fire, etc,, so, ~4500?

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7 hours ago, Rok Dog said:

That’s not why Trump was elected either.  You guys haven’t seriously looked at why he was elected have you. You think it’s all DEM vs REP but it’s not.

Nobody with a lick of sense thinks "it's all DEM vs REP" at all.

It's you hateful dumbasses vs the rest of us.

- DSK

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11 hours ago, Keith said:

Trump was elected because he was the "Celebrity du jour." the TV star.

Unfortunately the American cultural fascination is with the celebrity elite, movie stars, successful entertainers,  all dream to be one of them.............."Celebrity du jour" 

Whose next, The rock, or a Kardashian, or ????? 

troubling.

 

 

Good point Keith but not entirely accurate..   The Trump campaign did not take anything for granted they way the Clinton camp did.  Also to note,. Clinton was not able to energize the electorate.  When they called Pennsylvania, Indiana, and Michigan for Trump...  it was pretty much over.    Those were democrat strongholds with stagnating economies.  

IMPO... Clinton sealed her fate with the "Basket of Deplorables" statement. 

 

 

 

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Oh well, might as well succumb to the thread drift . .   

Trump made a whole series of populists promises - health insurance for all, Prescription drug reform, infrastructure, and more. 

He broke every one of them. He was, as is almost always the case, lying 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/05/trump-broken-every-populist-campaign-promise-prescription-drugs-infrastructure.html

HRC did not run a good campaign, but she was battling decades of Reich Wing media demonization; 

the MSM was also hostile to HRC. The New York times ran front page stories on the phony email investigations; yet had the 

story of Trump being investigated by the FBI and did not run it. 

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On 6/29/2020 at 1:06 PM, AJ Oliver said:

Many of you are probably too young to remember, but 

there was a time when USAeans who disagreed could have 

mutually respectful exchanges of views. (Not always, the rapid Reich racists and Nazis have 

always been around.) 

Today that is much rarer, thanks in large part to Gingrich and his Elk. 

If you're genuinely pining for the days of "mutually respectful exchange of views", it might help if you stopped describing some 30% of the American public as being part of the Nazi Reichstag.

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37 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

Good point Keith but not entirely accurate..   The Trump campaign did not take anything for granted they way the Clinton camp did.  Also to note,. Clinton was not able to energize the electorate.  When they called Pennsylvania, Indiana, and Michigan for Trump...  it was pretty much over.    Those were democrat strongholds with stagnating economies.  

IMPO... Clinton sealed her fate with the "Basket of Deplorables" statement. 

 

I agree that Hillary is not a like-able character (no idea what's she's like in person, but her public persona is that of a lecturer, a condescending elitist.) The "basket of deplorables" comment was kinda typical.  Then there's the whole assassination campaign waged against both Clintons, but definitely including her, for 20+ years by the right-wing media (of course, the people who genuinely believe "the media is a buncha liberal-biased commie fag elitists" have swallowed the hook on this anyway).

However, while Hillary lost the 2016 election, that doesn't change a single factor in the blame for Trump's ascension. His success over a Republican field of candidates that included responsible, honest, decent American politicians, shows who is driving the rightie bus. News flash- it IS the deplorables! Trump spounted a lot of trashy lies, racist nonsense, bragged about the size of his dick, and basically showed himself to be the guy everybody laughs at but doesn't really like. Because he fucks everybody over. He's the asshole boss you had at that job you hated. He's the neighbor who threatens to shoot kids on his lawn. He's a dysfunctional hate-driven whackoe. And he won the Republican primary by a big margin.

My conclusion is that the Republican Party, as an American political organization, is gone. It's been taken over by Nazis and the KKK, by Russian agents, by corporate overlords who truly would prefer to destroy the country than pay decent wages or taxes. It's a hostile take-over of the party, and the whole country. It is a civil war, even though there is relatively little shooting as of now.

The Trumpublicans are in fact destroying America as it was from 1776 to 2016.

I hope they do not succeed, although the damage is pretty severe now and things are getting worse.

- DSK

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35 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

The "basket of deplorables" comment was kinda typical. 

And still the most accurate thing she said during her entire campaign.

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:
36 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

The "basket of deplorables" comment was kinda typical. 

And still the most accurate thing she said during her entire campaign.

Agreed that it's completely true; however one of the jobs of a politician... any leader really, but more so in politics... is to be a salesman. Just like rock stars really hate playing their hit(s) over and over, successful politicians come to hate having to sell their policies and leadership over and over. But if you don't do it, you lose.

This is where I tend to think that Hillary is not as smart as she thinks she is, nor does she have as good judgement in choosing her advisors. Al Gore dramatically taught this lesson, not so long ago, and she (and her advisors) did not learn it. Didn't even realize there would be a test on Friday!

- DSK

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26 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Agreed that it's completely true; however one of the jobs of a politician... any leader really, but more so in politics... is to be a salesman. Just like rock stars really hate playing their hit(s) over and over, successful politicians come to hate having to sell their policies and leadership over and over. But if you don't do it, you lose.

This is where I tend to think that Hillary is not as smart as she thinks she is, nor does she have as good judgement in choosing her advisors. Al Gore dramatically taught this lesson, not so long ago, and she (and her advisors) did not learn it. Didn't even realize there would be a test on Friday!

- DSK

Hillary's problem is taking a fucking hint.  

When a racist-ass country like this one chooses an inexperienced black man over an extremely experienced white woman, that means EVERYONE FUCKING HATES THE WHITE WOMAN.  

 

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2 hours ago, nacradriver said:

Good point Keith but not entirely accurate..   The Trump campaign did not take anything for granted they way the Clinton camp did.  Also to note,. Clinton was not able to energize the electorate.  When they called Pennsylvania, Indiana, and Michigan for Trump...  it was pretty much over.    Those were democrat strongholds with stagnating economies.  

IMPO... Clinton sealed her fate with the "Basket of Deplorables" statement. 

 

 

 

The Dems lost it as soon as they anointed her. The Dem party put on a pretend dog and pony show of leaders debates, even when the outcome was predetermined.

Not appropriate, in a so called democratic system.   

But the American population is far too easily led by the "celebrity Du jour"

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51 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

When a racist-ass country like this one chooses an inexperienced black man over an extremely experienced white woman, that means EVERYONE FUCKING HATES THE WHITE WOMAN.  

But the question is, why is she so hated? (Bearing in mind that I do not much care for her myself) 

Whitewater - nothing there; Clinton murders - nothing there (but you would be amazed at how many people believe it; including a rocket scientist of my acquaintance; Clinton Foundation - nothing; Uranium One - nothing there; Benghazi - nothing; emails - nothing 

No politician of the modern era has been so falsely and viciously attacked. 

And I will continue to label people who circulate those lies as the Reich @mikewof

(But to reiterate, she did run a terrible campaign. Think about it: Here is Trump promising (repeatedly) affordable Health Ins for all; and the corporate so-called "moderate" Dems respond by saying M4A is just so impossible - too expensive, like wanting a pony, a veritable unicorn. 

And people are surprised that so many voted for Trump?) 

 

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13 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Nope. We had a centrist pragmatic government that reduced the deficit and invested in infrastructure, while also supporitng the military-industrial complex in the style to which it's been accustomed. You hated it. Then we had a Repub gang that ignored terrorist threat until it crash airplanes into our buildings, then invaded a country that had nothing to do with it, then crashed the economy. You loved it.

Then we had another centrist pragmatist gov't that reached across the aisle to try and solve problems... you REALLY fucking hated that one. That gov't pulled the country out of the crash, enacted a work-around for for the flaming mess of US health care, etc etc, while also supporting the military-industrial complex... and you hated it so bad that nothing would do but for you and your elk to elect a racist crook who lies about a plague and sells our soldiers lives to Putin, among many other crimes against the nation.

So no, Hillary's proposed policies had nothing to do with her losing the 2016 election

- DSK

WOW, That is the most succinct and real comment ever written on SA..  Good On YA!!!

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23 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

But the question is, why is she so hated?

 

somehow her handlers allowed her to sound like a school marm

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Just now, MR.CLEAN said:

somehow her handlers allowed her to sound like a school marm

Now don't y'all be dissin' our school marms. 

What did the Drump sound like? 

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1 minute ago, AJ Oliver said:

Now don't y'all be dissin' our school marms. 

What did the Drump sound like? 

Like someone trying to speak with their rectum.

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24 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Like someone trying to speak with their rectum.

His words do often appear to be coming out of a sphincter.

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Do we still have alt right dudes calling people cucks around here, or did they learn not to say that part out loud? 

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

But the question is, why is she so hated? 

Mostly our sexism that we deny we have.

As for your continued insistence on throwing around accusations of the Reichstag, do you have any understanding of how much work preservationists do to preserve the history of Nazi atrocities, so that future generations have a chance to avoid Hitler 2.0?

And then a retired political science professor, who is supposed to know better, throws around historically specific terms in an effort to sound young, and hip and cool, and not at all like someone in their mom's basement.

"Reichstag" and "Reich" apply to specific points of our history, that we need to remember undiluted by some guy's contemporary political opinions.

I don't expect that you'll read this article in the NY Times about the fire with which you play, but perhaps someone else will read it and realize why "Reich" should not thrown around hinky-dinky as an affort to avoid learning applicable adjectives.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/16/arts/international/at-auschwitz-birkenau-preserving-a-site-and-a-ghastly-inventory.html

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12 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Do we still have alt right dudes calling people cucks around here, or did they learn not to say that part out loud? 

The only one calling people "cucks" is you.

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19 hours ago, Left Shift said:

He is believed to be rich.  That always has seemed to be enough to work a scam.

Many people are saying he is not.  His suits are certainly evidence of that. 

True.  Most people who brag about how rich they are, rarely are.  

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4 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Hillary's problem is taking a fucking hint.  

When a racist-ass country like this one chooses an inexperienced black man over an extremely experienced white woman, that means EVERYONE FUCKING HATES THE WHITE WOMAN.  

 

Pandering works.  Even Carter tried it once, won, gave it up, lost.  You just can’t be cynical enough.  Ever.

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Mostly I would point out that nobody, but nobody, plays identity politics like the white nationalist GOPPER Trumpista Reich. 

Bullshit.  The Dems have built their entire party around identity politics.  The GOP has just been a quick study and beat them at their own game this time.  

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2 hours ago, bridhb said:

His words do often appear to be coming out of a sphincter.

Minuscule flapping noises?  Little squeaks....squeak squeak.  This is what happens when a lot of gas and an incredibly tight rectum interact.

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16 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Then we had a Repub gang that ignored terrorist threat until it crash airplanes into our buildings,

Wait... WHAT????  So you're saying that OBL rose up from nowhere, formed AQ and planned the 9/11 attacks from thin air starting on election night in Nov 2000???  That there were no actions by previous administrations that had anything to do with having airplanes flying into our buildings previous to the 6 months GW was in office?  Really?  That's some amazing recreation of history right there!  Impressive.

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15 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Has anyone posited the concept that you we, in fact, deserve this shit?

FIFY

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13 hours ago, Amati said:

~7,000?  Give or take.   I suppose some of that Was due to canon fire, etc,, so, ~4500?

Haha, I beat you to it.  

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5 hours ago, mikewof said:

If you're genuinely pining for the days of "mutually respectful exchange of views", it might help if you stopped describing some 30% of the American public as being part of the Nazi Reichstag.

Ya think???

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3 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

FIFY

I live close to the USA, not in it. We're doing our best to keep that shit on the other side of the border hedge.

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4 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Ya think???

Fuck them.

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:
2 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Do we still have alt right dudes calling people cucks around here, or did they learn not to say that part out loud? 

The only one calling people "cucks" is you.

Not true.  rzr and mj throw out that word all the time.  I can only imagine what their leather and ball gag collection look like.  And I strongly suspect mj is the "gimp" in their special games when they get together in person.  NTTAWWT.  

Edit to add:  Steamers seems to like the word "cuck" as well.  I just don't want to know what goes on in the DSK household.

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7 minutes ago, Burning Man said:
16 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Then we had a Repub gang that ignored terrorist threat until it crash airplanes into our buildings,

Wait... WHAT????  So you're saying that OBL rose up from nowhere, formed AQ and planned the 9/11 attacks from thin air starting on election night in Nov 2000???  That there were no actions by previous administrations that had anything to do with having airplanes flying into our buildings previous to the 6 months GW was in office?  Really?  That's some amazing recreation of history right there!  Impressive.

No, dumbass

I'm saying that the Bush/Cheney Administration threw away the Clinton Admin's  intel on OBL and AQ when they took over.

Which they did, because after all everybody knows the cuck Dems are soft on terrorism and have nothing to teach anybody on the topic. Well, everybody who is a Real American Fuck Yeah! knows that.

- DSK

 

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Just now, Steam Flyer said:

No, dumbass

I'm saying that the Bush/Cheney Administration threw away the Clinton Admin's  intel on OBL and AQ when they took over.

Which they did, because after all everybody knows the cuck Dems are soft on terrorism and have nothing to teach anybody on the topic. Well, everybody who is a Real American Fuck Yeah! knows that.

- DSK

 

If the intel was so hot and so critical to the survival of the country, why didn't clinton do something about it while he was still in office?   He had until Jan 20th.

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