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2 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

In Australia many of the shopping malls in the cities and suburbs are often attached to supermarkets, which we don't usually do in the U.S. (or the supermarkets are attached to malls...) Also there were frequently pharmacies (chemists!), meat and/or fish markets in the malls next to the supermarket area.

So when we were anchored in downtown Sydney, for example, if we wanted to go to Coles, Harris Farms, or Aldi all three of them were attached to the Broadway Mall in Glebe. Ditto for Mona Vale if you were in the Pittwater, you had to go to Pittwater Place mall where there were two groceries, a fish market, and a chemist. Same thing in the Gold Coast, downtown Brisbane, etc. etc.

Not all were like that, but there weren't many free-standing or grocery story anchored strip malls like the U.S.

They probably don't do it that was in Tassie though...

Nope unless you tie up at Constitution Dock & walk over to Salamanca Place for shopping but still - not a mall. Easy to walk up town from Con Dock to Hobart CBD and malls though. All of Hobart is about the size of one local council area of Sydney.

You don't *have* to do what you did in Sydney though. Friends of mine have been hanging out in Broken Bay/Pittwater for 4 months now. They use the online delivery ordering service from Coles I think and have their stuff delivered to Bobbin Head. Resupply, drop rubbish off, water & fuel if needed every 2 weeks. Sometimes run down to Church Point and get the bus etc to the malls.

Too many people up there now and the last I heard more boats are out & about following the end of 'winter' which if you're from Tasmania has to be a joke. The boat density in Pittwater isn't, though.

I misspent a lot of my teen years around Pittwater and Broken Bay. Long time ago.

Another 2 small projects off the list & ready to install. As soon as my Sailrite machine comes back from loan I can fix the lee cloths and have them ready to install as well. 2 weeks home isolation is good for project completion. Pity I can think of a lot more to add to the whiteboard. I mean everyone needs machined perspex drop boards...

FKT

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5 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

You don't *have* to do what you did in Sydney though. Friends of mine have been hanging out in Broken Bay/Pittwater for 4 months now. They use the online delivery ordering service from Coles I think and have their stuff delivered to Bobbin Head. Resupply, drop rubbish off, water & fuel if needed every 2 weeks. Sometimes run down to Church Point and get the bus etc to the malls.

If you want online delivery instead of looking over the meat & veg yourself, yeah, you can do that. It's still from the Coles in MV.

Newport has a grocery too, though it's a tad smaller, and not in a mall. Though our favorite $10 Thai lunch special was on the walk too, so we did that a lot.

Parking a dinghy at Church Point was a nuisance, there was a dinghy dock, but it was for permit holders only (which I couldn't ever get a response from the council how to get) so we'd go into Newport where you could leave the dinghy and catch a bus to go south or walk to Newport.

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

If you want online delivery instead of looking over the meat & veg yourself, yeah, you can do that. It's still from the Coles in MV.

Newport has a grocery too, though it's a tad smaller, and not in a mall. Though our favorite $10 Thai lunch special was on the walk too, so we did that a lot.

Parking a dinghy at Church Point was a nuisance, there was a dinghy dock, but it was for permit holders only (which I couldn't ever get a response from the council how to get) so we'd go into Newport where you could leave the dinghy and catch a bus to go south or walk to Newport.

I know Irrubel Road really well, friend of mine still lives there. His father worked at the RPAYC back in the day. We used to do a lot of drinking at the Newport pub. Fair walk from RPAYC to the Newport shops IIRC.

WRT the dinghy dock at Church Point I'm not sure anyone cares a lot, might depend on what day it is. My friends aren't having a problem anyway. Currently they're on a private mooring (with permission) off of McCarr's Creek.

Online delivery - yeah. You get what you get I guess. I'm counting down the days to being allowed out again. Down to UHT orange juice now and it's OK but that's all.  I left a big supply of dry goods & staples before I went off to Sydney and my GF dropped off a lot of fresh stuff the day before I got back but running low now. Go shopping, go to the library, go to the bolt shop and reprovision. Probably a visit to Bunnings in there too.

How's the Zatara clown show going? Can't be bothered watching so a 1 or 2 line executive summary would suffice.

FKT

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15 hours ago, Albatros said:

and there are still place taking this very serious ... was in the Dutch naval  army marina in Den Helder, took the ensign down 10 minutes after sunset, got a pronto full control & bollocking

the dutch loves to keep their flag flying 24h/day.

 

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I know Irrubel Road really well, friend of mine still lives there. His father worked at the RPAYC back in the day. We used to do a lot of drinking at the Newport pub. Fair walk from RPAYC to the Newport shops IIRC.

WRT the dinghy dock at Church Point I'm not sure anyone cares a lot, might depend on what day it is. My friends aren't having a problem anyway. Currently they're on a private mooring (with permission) off of McCarr's Creek.

Online delivery - yeah. You get what you get I guess. I'm counting down the days to being allowed out again. Down to UHT orange juice now and it's OK but that's all.  I left a big supply of dry goods & staples before I went off to Sydney and my GF dropped off a lot of fresh stuff the day before I got back but running low now. Go shopping, go to the library, go to the bolt shop and reprovision. Probably a visit to Bunnings in there too.

How's the Zatara clown show going? Can't be bothered watching so a 1 or 2 line executive summary would suffice.

FKT

I'm not really watching Zatara either, now that they're gone and not coming back. Every now and then they come up at something like the weekly cruiser's cocktail hour or the poker game a few of us have on Thursdays and everyone rolls their eyes and shakes their heads.

We left the dinghy there a few times at Church point. The other reason we didn't love leaving it there was that it was mostly tinnies with a lot of pokey edges all mashed in tight, which didn't thrill me as a place to leave my rubber boat. The signs were fairly hostile though, so we didn't leave it there unless we had to anyway.

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

........How's the Zatara clown show going? Can't be bothered watching so a 1 or 2 line executive summary would suffice.

FKT

Tough job but somebody has to do it..... I take a weekly look-in ... spend about a minute skimming through it just to see if he has made any forward plans.... morbid curiosity  I guess.... no sign... all about kite surfing this week...

Nothing about trying to get to Qland..... which won't be happening anyway.

There was another US yacht in the NZ media last week.

Seems they left just after Zito.... now want to get back to NZ on humanitarian grounds..... 

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

I'm not really watching Zatara either, now that they're gone and not coming back. Every now and then they come up at something like the weekly cruiser's cocktail hour or the poker game a few of us have on Thursdays and everyone rolls their eyes and shakes their heads.

We left the dinghy there a few times at Church point. The other reason we didn't love leaving it there was that it was mostly tinnies with a lot of pokey edges all mashed in tight, which didn't thrill me as a place to leave my rubber boat. The signs were fairly hostile though, so we didn't leave it there unless we had to anyway.

Yeah that's Sydney in the 21C. Too many people and too many of them with 'fuck you I'm important' disease. Why I don't go there more than I have to.

Hard to believe it was 50 years ago we used to hang out up there. Could camp out at Coaster's Retreat, tent camping on north Palm Beach even. Families used to set up their camps for the entire summer school holidays. We misspent a ton of time diving, swimming, spearfishing, under-age drinking and chasing girls.

Church Point was quite laid back. The old Pasadena Restaurant was one of the few places you could go for a feed, one of my friends was a kitchen hand there so we got mate's deals on food & drink. We'd sometimes stay over in Elvina Bay a short dinghy ride away, or at a place a friend used to rent cheap on Scotland Island.

One of the reasons I like it down here is, it's still pretty laid-back because there simply isn't the crowding and the fuckwit factor seems lower.

EDIT: Yeah thr deflatable dinghy caper might be a bit of a problem. My friends have a hard dink, a Fatty Knees, and I use a tinny myself. Deflatables are good for diving tenders but other than that - shrug. No love here, we trashed too many as work boats in the Arafura Sea and again in Antarctic waters.

FKT

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Just now, Cisco said:

There was another US yacht in the NZ media last week.

Seems they left just after Zito.... now want to get back to NZ on humanitarian grounds..... 

Ha ha ha ha.

No.

FKT

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23 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

This is also why I have several random buckets with odd numbers of screws, nuts, bolts, and other doo-dads and parts collecting dust in lockers.

Which you will absolutely not need until the day after you get permanently rid of them.

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26 minutes ago, Black Sox said:

Which you will absolutely not need until the day after you get permanently rid of them.

Sometimes, it's as long as a week or two.

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5 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Fair walk from RPAYC to the Newport shops IIRC.

I've done that walk, it's not so bad. But it's a little shorter and less hilly from the Newport ferry dock.

Cruisers walk a lot of places.

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14 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yeah that's Sydney in the 21C. Too many people and too many of them with 'fuck you I'm important' disease. Why I don't go there more than I have to.

Hard to believe it was 50 years ago we used to hang out up there. Could camp out at Coaster's Retreat, tent camping on north Palm Beach even. Families used to set up their camps for the entire summer school holidays. We misspent a ton of time diving, swimming, spearfishing, under-age drinking and chasing girls.

Church Point was quite laid back. The old Pasadena Restaurant was one of the few places you could go for a feed, one of my friends was a kitchen hand there so we got mate's deals on food & drink. We'd sometimes stay over in Elvina Bay a short dinghy ride away, or at a place a friend used to rent cheap on Scotland Island.

One of the reasons I like it down here is, it's still pretty laid-back because there simply isn't the crowding and the fuckwit factor seems lower.

EDIT: Yeah thr deflatable dinghy caper might be a bit of a problem. My friends have a hard dink, a Fatty Knees, and I use a tinny myself. Deflatables are good for diving tenders but other than that - shrug. No love here, we trashed too many as work boats in the Arafura Sea and again in Antarctic waters.

FKT

The good news is you don’t really understand what a shithole Sydney has become in the last twenty years until you move out of there, so all the important people are just slowly boiling like frogs and staying away from places like Tassie..

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1 hour ago, olaf hart said:

The good news is you don’t really understand what a shithole Sydney has become in the last twenty years until you move out of there, so all the important people are just slowly boiling like frogs and staying away from places like Tassie..

And long may they do so. I like the low population density here. God knows there's already enough bullshit about the place from local government, increasing the population will only make it worse.

Weather isn't looking great end of next week so our first sail might get pushed back a bit. I've got that Swanson dinghy in the workshop for repair assessment now.

FKT

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No real surprise, but just saw that the Ocean Cruising Club posted that both Australia and New Zealand have made a final decision that cyclone season is not "humanitarian need" and all the yachts who want to come from Fiji/South Pacific/etc can get stuffed.

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10 hours ago, hdra said:

No real surprise, but just saw that the Ocean Cruising Club posted that both Australia and New Zealand have made a final decision that cyclone season is not "humanitarian need" and all the yachts who want to come from Fiji/South Pacific/etc can get stuffed.

Yeah, I saw that too.

It's not a surprise, at this point.

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"Unfortunately, despite many explanatory letters and emails, health officials do not appreciate most yachts cannot sail to safe harbour in their own countries. Nor do they understand yachts need to be safely out of the cyclone zone before the cyclone season occurs, and not at sea when one occurs."

He said the matter was now urgent, and the club was imploring the New Zealand government to reconsider."

Trying to make their problem New Zealand's problem.

If they in fact cannot return to their home country what are they doing where they are in the first place? I suspect it's far more of a case of don't want to contemplate a voyage of such duration more than the vessel is incapable of making such a voyage, but there undoubtedly are a number which can't. The first isn't a humanitarian issue though, if the vessel is capable.

They've all had 6 months to consider their options.

Wonder what the reaction would be if NZ said OK but it's $20K USD per crewperson payable prior to arrival and no internal travel.

FKT

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Enzed has a general election 17 October, what’s the betting their policy softens after that?

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12 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

"Unfortunately, despite many explanatory letters and emails, health officials do not appreciate most yachts cannot sail to safe harbour in their own countries. Nor do they understand yachts need to be safely out of the cyclone zone before the cyclone season occurs, and not at sea when one occurs."

He said the matter was now urgent, and the club was imploring the New Zealand government to reconsider."

Trying to make their problem New Zealand's problem.

If they in fact cannot return to their home country what are they doing where they are in the first place? I suspect it's far more of a case of don't want to contemplate a voyage of such duration more than the vessel is incapable of making such a voyage, but there undoubtedly are a number which can't. The first isn't a humanitarian issue though, if the vessel is capable.

They've all had 6 months to consider their options.

Wonder what the reaction would be if NZ said OK but it's $20K USD per crewperson payable prior to arrival and no internal travel.

FKT

Reading through the linked article gave me a "tone" of the correspondence and I couldn't help thinking it all sounded a bit, well, British, as in,

"I say, Johnny Foreigner, don't you know who I am?"

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On 9/18/2020 at 6:20 PM, olaf hart said:

The good news is you don’t really understand what a shithole Sydney has become in the last twenty years until you move out of there, so all the important people are just slowly boiling like frogs and staying away from places like Tassie..

That sounds like how we think about downtown Boston here in Maine. Years ago I lived there and it was a fun unique city with local characters throughout. Now? Self important fuckwits.

I really liked Tasmania. Cool place, beautiful harbor. But I had to go to an event at a museum called MONA there once. That was a strange evening.

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13 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I suspect it's far more of a case of don't want to contemplate a voyage of such duration more than the vessel is incapable of making such a voyage, but there undoubtedly are a number which can't. The first isn't a humanitarian issue though, if the vessel is capable.

They've all had 6 months to consider their options.

Did you hear the one about the one armed Irishman? No, seriously, there was a news story about a solo sailor with one arm, Gerry somebody, who was in the Caribbean earlier this year when COVID hit. He decided to go back to N Ireland and he did it, going like 3 knots much of the way. I was following his Predictwind where-is-the-boat link worried about the situation. Great fanfare at the dock when he arrived; he looked like shit but it had to have been a hell of an adventure. 

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15 hours ago, olaf hart said:

Pretty ignorant to safe harbor options for boats going west.  Seems like New Zealand can't be the only safe option.  The miles from FP west are fair bit.  Seems odd they would put all their effort into one country.  It looks like Malaysia is taking case by case entry but not alot of info, Papa New Guinea is open but not sure if it's out of the cyclones.

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1 hour ago, loneshark64 said:

Did you hear the one about the one armed Irishman? No, seriously, there was a news story about a solo sailor with one arm, Gerry somebody, who was in the Caribbean earlier this year when COVID hit. He decided to go back to N Ireland and he did it, going like 3 knots much of the way. I was following his Predictwind where-is-the-boat link worried about the situation. Great fanfare at the dock when he arrived; he looked like shit but it had to have been a hell of an adventure.  

I was expecting a joke: "A one-armed Irishman walks into a bar...."

Next line could be something like: "... just kidding, he was already in there because he never left the bar..."

FB- Doug

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14 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Pretty ignorant to safe harbor options for boats going west.  Seems like New Zealand can't be the only safe option. 

If you want a First World country out of the cyclone belt, your options are limited to 2, and one of those countries has a reputation for arsehole border protection...

FKT

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Is the North of Japan still inside the zone?

 

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32 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Is the North of Japan still inside the zone?

 

There’s pretty good typhoon proof shelters in Japan but you need to make the effort because there’s tons of paperwork and it isn’t cheap or bikini weather. And it is the wrong season to try to hop to Guam then to Okinawa or Japan proper. 

The folks who got themselves into this situation were either dumb as a brick or willfully blind/think the world regards them as important before they left.

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41 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Is the North of Japan still inside the zone?

 

Fucking long way to go and according to a friend of mine who was planning on going there, there's maybe a 3 week window to leave Guam for Japan with good statistical probability of not getting caught in a tropical storm.

Plus the Japanese aren't exactly welcoming though nice people and there's the language/resupply issues. Lot of cruisers are rich US expats so an English-speaking country makes life easier.

Short form: go home.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

There’s pretty good typhoon proof shelters in Japan but you need to make the effort because there’s tons of paperwork and it isn’t cheap or bikini weather. And it is the wrong season to try to hop to Guam then to Okinawa or Japan proper. 

The folks who got themselves into this situation were either dumb as a brick or willfully blind/think the world regards them as important before they left.

Oh well, they can start circumnavigating Antartica until it gets better! :rolleyes:

 

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Short form: go home.

Indigenous populations tried ...
 It doesn't seem to work with Brits, Aussies and Americans.
:lol:

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

Indigenous populations tried ...
 It doesn't seem to work with Brits, Aussies and Americans.
:lol:

Well, Mr smug smart-arse - just when are the French leaving all those islands in Polynesia and New Caledonia? I guess all the other French colonies (like Vietnam) don't count - seeing as the indigenous populations threw the French right out on their ear. Not like you left willingly, just that you left.

IOW, better think of the log in your own eye before making half-smart remarks at us.

FKT

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20 hours ago, loneshark64 said:

Did you hear the one about the one armed Irishman? No, seriously, there was a news story about a solo sailor with one arm, Gerry somebody, who was in the Caribbean earlier this year when COVID hit. He decided to go back to N Ireland and he did it, going like 3 knots much of the way. I was following his Predictwind where-is-the-boat link worried about the situation. Great fanfare at the dock when he arrived; he looked like shit but it had to have been a hell of an adventure. 

Single-handed?

(Can’t believe I’m the first.)

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53 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Well, Mr smug smart-arse - just when are the French leaving all those islands in Polynesia and New Caledonia? I guess all the other French colonies (like Vietnam) don't count - seeing as the indigenous populations threw the French right out on their ear. Not like you left willingly, just that you left.

IOW, better think of the log in your own eye before making half-smart remarks at us.

FKT

That reply was obviously ironic, I should have added the purple font.

To reply to your point, France did indeed colonise and I could have added them together with Spaniards, Belgians and Germans but in Brittany we were on the receiving end. Nevertheless a presumably white Aussie telling "Go home" to presumably white North Americans is rather delicious when you think a bit about the history of these two countries and how the illness they spread decimated indigenous populations.

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7 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

That reply was obviously ironic, I should have added the purple font.

To reply to your point, France did indeed colonise and I could have added them together with Spaniards, Belgians and Germans but in Brittany we were on the receiving end. Nevertheless a presumably white Aussie telling "Go home" to presumably white North Americans is rather delicious when you think a bit about the history of these two countries and how the illness they spread decimated indigenous populations.

You, sir, are making a bold assumption!

How do you know that FKT isn't a member of the Lost Tribe of the Huon Valley...

 

Hang on... wasn't Huon a Breton....?

 

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Interestingly, D’Entrecasteau is responsible for the first recorded episode of mass deaths from contagion of Australian Aborigines, after he and his men wintered at Recherche Bay around 1789...

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And then that bugger Baudin tried to nick King Island....

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15 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

Interestingly, D’Entrecasteau is responsible for the first recorded episode of mass deaths from contagion of Australian Aborigines, after he and his men wintered at Recherche Bay around 1789...

This was for Science, you are mixing up everything!

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6 minutes ago, Cisco said:

And then that bugger Baudin tried to nick King Island....

You've lost me!

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17 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

You've lost me!

Ha! Well that wasn't too hard....

He wasn't just going to nick KI... probably going to nick the lot!!!

'Governor King, knowing that the French navigator Nicolas Baudin was going to head for the island, when he left Port Jackson in 1800, sent the Cumberland from Sydney to formally claim the islands for Britain. The Cumberland arrived just before the French and the British had hastily erected the British Flag in a tree.[12] Baudin still circumnavigated and extensively mapped the Island in 1802, giving French names to some localities which are still in use today like "Phoques Bay" on the north-west coast.'

That's from here..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Island_(Tasmania)

 

Lots of french names between Fremantle and Cape Howe....

 

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

That reply was obviously ironic, I should have added the purple font.

To reply to your point, France did indeed colonise and I could have added them together with Spaniards, Belgians and Germans but in Brittany we were on the receiving end. Nevertheless a presumably white Aussie telling "Go home" to presumably white North Americans is rather delicious when you think a bit about the history of these two countries and how the illness they spread decimated indigenous populations.

My elder sister can trace our ancestry back to the 1850's on the matrilineal line, starting with a housemaid in a sheep property in SW NSW. Before that all is vague.

If you knew any Australian history then you could figure out what that is most likely to indicate.

Anyway, the point is, none of us is taking cruisers in ATM. Borders are closed for the foreseeable future. Cruisers' choices are to stay where they are if permitted to do so, or go home. Continuing a world cruise and blithely going from port to port and assuming a welcome on arrival is not on. Maybe in 2021 or 2022 things will ease up but not this season.

Hence my advice - if you really can't or won't stay in your current safe haven, or you're uncomfortable being in a possible cyclone area - look at going home.

Up to you to suggest a 3rd alternative, Pano.

FKT

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Just now, Fah Kiew Tu said:

My elder sister can trace our ancestry back to the 1850's

You got nothin,

I am a direct descendant of Adam.

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Well, Mr smug smart-arse - just when are the French leaving all those islands in Polynesia and New Caledonia? I guess all the other French colonies (like Vietnam) don't count - seeing as the indigenous populations threw the French right out on their ear. Not like you left willingly, just that you left.

IOW, better think of the log in your own eye before making half-smart remarks at us.

FKT

Wait, wait. I think we're losing focus here. We're supposed to be shitting on America, not other countries. Other Western nations haven't done anything wrong, or similar to any of the United States' offenses in their histories. Ever. Also, the other Western nations do not have assholes.

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5 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Wait, wait. I think we're losing focus here. We're supposed to be shitting on America, not other countries. Other Western nations haven't done anything wrong, or similar to any of the United States' offenses in their histories. Ever. Also, the other Western nations do not have assholes.

Do try and keep up...

Wednesday mornings... Tasmanians... or sundry other 'strayans who put their heads above the parapet.

Wednesday afternoons ... the French... double points for Bretons...

Merkins the rest of the week..

Open season all week on poms and kiwis...

 

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43 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

My elder sister can trace our ancestry back to the 1850's on the matrilineal line, starting with a housemaid in a sheep property in SW NSW. Before that all is vague.

If you knew any Australian history then you could figure out what that is most likely to indicate.

Anyway, the point is, none of us is taking cruisers in ATM. Borders are closed for the foreseeable future. Cruisers' choices are to stay where they are if permitted to do so, or go home. Continuing a world cruise and blithely going from port to port and assuming a welcome on arrival is not on. Maybe in 2021 or 2022 things will ease up but not this season.

Hence my advice - if you really can't or won't stay in your current safe haven, or you're uncomfortable being in a possible cyclone area - look at going home.

Up to you to suggest a 3rd alternative, Pano.

FKT

That's a bit of a giveaway.... :)

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

This was for Science, you are mixing up everything!

D’Entrecasteau wasn’t in a scientific expedition, he was trying to find La Perouse .

They stayed in Recherche Bay to rest and reprovision after crossing the southern ocean.

anyway, I am sure the local inhabitants didn’t care if the French were there to study or to colonise, a pox is a pox...

 

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6 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Fucking long way to go and according to a friend of mine who was planning on going there, there's maybe a 3 week window to leave Guam for Japan with good statistical probability of not getting caught in a tropical storm.

Plus the Japanese aren't exactly welcoming though nice people and there's the language/resupply issues. Lot of cruisers are rich US expats so an English-speaking country makes life easier.

Short form: go home.

FKT

That was our read on Japan.

We have some friends that cruised there and loved it. But getting there, weather-wise, is a bit of a crap shoot. There really isn't much of a storm-free period to speak of. And there are some language issues.

It's tough to picture Japan welcoming hordes of cruisers even if it made sense to go there.

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7 hours ago, Miffy said:

The folks who got themselves into this situation were either dumb as a brick or willfully blind/think the world regards them as important before they left.

Being out here in the field...there have been a lot of mixed messages. A great lot of rumbling about "Trans tasman corridors" and "Blue corridors" and people talking to people inside countries while the people with the official public channels sometimes sending mixed messages about thing. Fiji is talking to NZ and NZ is talking to Oz and the Tonga might be open oh that's Raratonga but only if you live there...yada yada yada.

I think if you left a place that was Cyclone-free for the tropics, you're a freaking idiot. If you left North/Central America for the SoPac after March, you also probably deserve a merit badge for Bad Judgement and Poor Planning. The handwriting was pretty clearly on the wall by then that it was going to be a terrible time to get into other countries.

But there has been discussions on the whole cyclone season topic since last March, with a sort-of vibe that yes, ultimately something might be done. I think delaying the election here buggered that up a bit. That, and the non-compliance from some folks in managed isolation in Auckland really pissed off and scared the bejesus out of a lot of people.

Every case is different, and some people got luckier then others. If COVID had hit a couple of months later it would have been my ass swinging in the breeze up in French Polynesia or Kiribati at the moment. If it had hit a month or so earlier I'd probably still be sitting in my FIL's condo in FL scratching my ass and figuring out how to get back to the boat.

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2 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

That was our read on Japan.

We have some friends that cruised there and loved it. But getting there, weather-wise, is a bit of a crap shoot. There really isn't much of a storm-free period to speak of. And there are some language issues.

It's tough to picture Japan welcoming hordes of cruisers even if it made sense to go there.

My friends have given up their plans to go there and they've both spent many months in Japan on walking tours plus speak reasonable Japanese. Their take on it is - it just isn't sensible to go.

Any of you US cruisers with half-decent vessels have the *capacity* to transit non-stop from French Polynesia or NZ back to a home port, or at least you should have if your boats are seaworthy. So there's no technical reason why you can't. I can understand the lack of desire to do such long passages especially for those who've spent their entire time in the trade wind belt, but if you look at it from say Australia's border control POV, your lack of desire to do such a passage does not constitute a humanitarian exception on ours.

Were it my decision I'd open up a single port of entry with decent hardstanding and quarantine and allow a controlled flow in for people & boats who could make out a decent case for needing to refit/resupply or need medical attention etc. Then I'd quarantine you in a hotel or similar for the 14 days, test you twice and then let you live & work on your boats until you left. Not my call in any way though and our Govt doesn't even know you exist let alone care.

FKT

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13 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I can understand the lack of desire to do such long passages especially for those who've spent their entire time in the trade wind belt, but if you look at it from say Australia's border control POV, your lack of desire to do such a passage does not constitute a humanitarian exception on ours.

That you CAN do such a trip does not make it inherently wise or safe.

Our original objective in returning to NZ last February was to leave in May for FP, then work our way up and sail to Hawaii by November. The next spring we head to the mainland. That was the plan. Break it into chunks, lots of places to stop and put in for supplies, fuel and repairs along the way if we need it. We estimated 45-55 days at sea between Opua and Seattle, with layover chunks in between. Stopping no more than 2-3 weeks anywhere via Raratonga, Penryhn and Hawaii you could get to Seattle by September, in theory.

In theory you can also do that straight, but in practice you need to carry a fuck-ton of fuel and provisions, and the inability to stop safely along the way for repairs and resupply makes it a really nasty trip. It's a lot of upwind, crossing the equator and doldrums, etc. etc. With no re-fueling, well, there's a reason they called them the "horse latitudes." Is it doable non-stop? Of course, you can sail around the world non-stop. Is it super-sensible and safe to set out for a 45-60 day nonstop passage without any safe ports along the way? Much less so than in normal times, IMHO.

Remember - all those long distance nonstop sailors that did these sorts of things CHOSE to do it. They had the options along the way to re-supply or put in for repairs if the need arose. We wouldn't have that safety net. So it's easy to say "Of course you can do it, this lot did" but the risks are much higher if you don't know where, if anyplace, you can put in if you have a problem.

There's a guy stuck out there doing this exact thing right now. He left Panama to sail directly to Australia, but somewhere out there he busted a lower on his rig. We talked about him a couple of weeks back on an SSCA conference call. He was trying to get clearance to stop in somewhere, maybe French Polynesia, and was having all sorts of hassles getting the ability to pull in somewhere, get parts and fix the rig so he can keep sailing. I do not know how this has worked out for him since I've had no updates since that call.

But that sort of thing is what we're concerned about. Not that we can't do the non-stop sail, probably we can. But it we can't because you have a failure or you miscalculate your fuel, you can be pretty deeply screwed.

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How the UK built the Empire. 

 

The cruising population is small. Its needs are specific and require esoteric understanding.  They will be viewed as rich people on holiday. That's why there will be no relief. 

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19 minutes ago, Elegua said:

The cruising population is small. Its needs are specific and require esoteric understanding.  They will be viewed as rich people on holiday. That's why there will be no relief. 

Yup. And many of us are capable of taking the financial hit to store out boats and go "home" if we have to, even if we don't actually have another home.

But there are some shoestring folks out there who may be in pretty rough shape if they had to do that.

 

I think also in the minds of the people in the government there is little difference between the superyachts and the rest of us. Most of us are an order of magnitude or three less wealthy than the super yacht owners, but many of them are trying to buy/bully their way in when there really is no real risk to them personally. This does not help our case.

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14 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Yup. And many of us are capable of taking the financial hit to store out boats and go "home" if we have to, even if we don't actually have another home.

But there are some shoestring folks out there who may be in pretty rough shape if they had to do that.

 

I think also in the minds of the people in the government there is little difference between the superyachts and the rest of us. Most of us are an order of magnitude or three less wealthy than the super yacht owners, but many of them are trying to buy/bully their way in when there really is no real risk to them personally. This does not help our case.

Especially when they don't vote for you, don't pay tax to you, are a liability if anything goes wrong, and makes it harder for you to keep out other "undesirables". 

The superyachts may have an advantage over you as although they might be foreign flagged, there is a higher likelihood they are owned by someone of influence in your jurisdiction. 

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21 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Yup. And many of us are capable of taking the financial hit to store out boats and go "home" if we have to, even if we don't actually have another home.

But there are some shoestring folks out there who may be in pretty rough shape if they had to do that.

 

I think also in the minds of the people in the government there is little difference between the superyachts and the rest of us. Most of us are an order of magnitude or three less wealthy than the super yacht owners, but many of them are trying to buy/bully their way in when there really is no real risk to them personally. This does not help our case.

Not only in the minds of government functionaries, but even the minds of every day folk. Even the "sailing poor" who are scraping along on shoestring budgets are regarded with little empathy because "they made a conscious decision" to be poor, to buck the system and to live differently instead of slaving away at a desk in a windowless office somewhere.

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4 hours ago, olaf hart said:

D’Entrecasteau wasn’t in a scientific expedition, he was trying to find La Perouse .

They stayed in Recherche Bay to rest and reprovision after crossing the southern ocean.

anyway, I am sure the local inhabitants didn’t care if the French were there to study or to colonise, a pox is a pox...

 

How selfish of them, may be the sighting of some Australian butterfly could have led to the discovery of a COVID vaccine 2.5 centuries later that would have made the life of their great-great-great-great-great.....great son @Fah Kiew Tu better.

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6 hours ago, Elegua said:

Especially when they don't vote for you, don't pay tax to you, are a liability if anything goes wrong, and makes it harder for you to keep out other "undesirables". 

The superyachts may have an advantage over you as although they might be foreign flagged, there is a higher likelihood they are owned by someone of influence in your jurisdiction. 

Having a net worth in the hundreds of millions always has an advantage, no matter where you're flagged or who you know.

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6 hours ago, Ajax said:

Not only in the minds of government functionaries, but even the minds of every day folk. Even the "sailing poor" who are scraping along on shoestring budgets are regarded with little empathy because "they made a conscious decision" to be poor, to buck the system and to live differently instead of slaving away at a desk in a windowless office somewhere.

Yup. Any choice but wage slavery and a house in the suburbs with 2.5 kids and a dog makes you suspect for choosing an "alternative" lifestyle, and deserving of all the awful things you've brought down on yourself with such radical ideas and poor life choices.

Such is thinking of many, yes.

Notwithstanding that crossing oceans with the ability to divert for weather and emergencies is less likely you kill you than a 45 minute driving commute.

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It’s the politics of envy...

Anyhoo, I still think the policy might soften after the NZ election...

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10 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

That you CAN do such a trip does not make it inherently wise or safe.

I didn't say that it did. What I said was, the ability to perform such a voyage means that choosing NOT to do so does not turn that choice into a humanitarian emergency requiring relaxation of COVID entry/clearance rules and qualify for entry into Australia/New Zealand.

In the vast majority of shoreside bastards' minds sailing outside of sight of land in a small boat, for pleasure, is neither wise nor safe, so pushing that line of argument is a total loser IMO.

In your case, you've a well found 53' vessel and you're in New Zealand. Les Powles did a single-handed nonstop passage in a 32' vessel from NZ all the way back to Plymouth England. And he was a lot older than you are. And there was another person, can't remember who ATM, who left NZ, went east to the South American coast, rode the Humbolt current north then returned to NZ via the Trades. I think he did it non-stop, single handed, and in a *lot* smaller, less well found boat than yours. You could either sail east then north in the Humbolt and motor/sail to Panama or go into the north Pacific and east to the NW coast of the USA. Both passages are long but straightforward.

My point is, NOT going home is a lifestyle choice. It is NOT a humanitarian emergency. Cruisers in the Pacific at risk of being hit by a cyclone are no more our responsibility to provide safe haven for than are all the actual inhabitants of those islands, and nobody is suggesting that we take in all of French Polynesia, for example.

The 'humanitarian refuge' argument has no legs. As I've said, were it up to me I would provide a port of entry, most likely Bundaberg as it's not like it would matter if we had to quarantine it and the surrounding 100km. But the cruising fraternity need to not use bullshit arguments as it just weakens your case and insults our intelligence.

FKT

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6 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

In your case, you've a well found 53' vessel and you're in New Zealand. Les Powles did a single-handed nonstop passage in a 32' vessel from NZ all the way back to Plymouth England. And he was a lot older than you are. And there was another person, can't remember who ATM, who left NZ, went east to the South American coast, rode the Humbolt current north then returned to NZ via the Trades. I think he did it non-stop, single handed, and in a *lot* smaller, less well found boat than yours. You could either sail east then north in the Humbolt and motor/sail to Panama or go into the north Pacific and east to the NW coast of the USA. Both passages are long but straightforward.

That my vessel is well equipped to do this and that we are capable of it is not at all in doubt. I'm not arguing that.

But there is one critical difference between our situation (and the rest of the cruisers out there now) and the guys in your examples.

They could have stopped if they needed to, guaranteed.  If they'd had something break on their boats or an injury, emergency stopping in the nearest safe harbor in non-COVID times is a no-brainer in any port in the world, no one would turn them away. Even the Galapagos, though they'd be pricks about it they'd do it, normally.

In current conditions during a pandemic, those of us leaving port now have no guarantee that if we have a serious...situation...out there, that we will be able to find a safe port of refuge.

So I don't agree that it's quite as cut and dried as you think about how risky it is, because nobody wants us to come in from offshore. And if we do have a problem, every single country will at minimum be a pain in the ass about it, and may well tell us "nah, that doesn't sound serious enough to let you in" no matter how hard we explain at the bureaucrats on the other end.

Remember, the same type of people who think you can wait until a cyclone is going to hit Fiji THEN apply for your emergency humanitarian visa then beat the storm to NZ will be involved in these decisions. They don't know what a stay or a shroud is, never mind why breaking one is bad, and they think we can just park the boat for the night and wait for the storm to pass.

And the hoopla if one of us had to set off an EPIRB and get rescued?

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13 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

But the cruising fraternity need to not use bullshit arguments as it just weakens your case and insults our intelligence.

FKT

The very public pressure game for enmass approval was probably not the best approach.  No matter what Cruising is a luxury in the high end of luxuries for most of the world.  The priority for any official anywhere is going to be fairly low in regards to appeasing them.

That said I don't understand some of the First world countries like NZ and AUS. There is no better platform for containment than a vessel arriving from sea.  Require a bond, testing, insurance to cover any costs etc. There is no good argument for keeping the maritime border completely closed.  Those willing to follow the rules will pay the premium in time etc to do it right.  The skofflaw boats are just going to show up anyway.

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1 hour ago, SASSAFRASS said:

The very public pressure game for enmass approval was probably not the best approach.  No matter what Cruising is a luxury in the high end of luxuries for most of the world.  The priority for any official anywhere is going to be fairly low in regards to appeasing them.

That said I don't understand some of the First world countries like NZ and AUS. There is no better platform for containment than a vessel arriving from sea.  Require a bond, testing, insurance to cover any costs etc. There is no good argument for keeping the maritime border completely closed.  Those willing to follow the rules will pay the premium in time etc to do it right.  The skofflaw boats are just going to show up anyway.

Is it crazy to use a GPS log as proof that you've been underway and thus quarantined for 14+ days?  If the track shows continuous movement between port of origin and destination, why isn't that a good way to prove self-isolation?

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11 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Is it crazy to use a GPS log as proof that you've been underway and thus quarantined for 14+ days?  If the track shows continuous movement between port of origin and destination, why isn't that a good way to prove self-isolation?

Landlubber desk jockey bureaucrats are clueless about such things...

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42 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Is it crazy to use a GPS log as proof that you've been underway and thus quarantined for 14+ days?  If the track shows continuous movement between port of origin and destination, why isn't that a good way to prove self-isolation?

The Fiji Navy is using AIS for exactly that.  If you have a AIS transponder you don't have to quarentine.  The boat I was on in St Thomas ended up waiting in Panama City to instal one so they could go straight in. With a commercial subscription to one of the AIS sat services your track is pretty much out there for all to see.

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29 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

The Fiji Navy is using AIS for exactly that.  If you have a AIS transponder you don't have to quarentine.  The boat I was on in St Thomas ended up waiting in Panama City to instal one so they could go straight in. With a commercial subscription to one of the AIS sat services your track is pretty much out there for all to see.

I don't think you even need a subscription. My dock neighbor told me he was following us on a recent outing via MarineTraffic.com. That was news to me.

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You just need the subscription to ID the sat boats.  You can see them for free so if you have a location on a boat you can follow but it won't give you the vessel data without the subscription once it moves away from land based stations.

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....And if the trackee is in an area of low traffic density its pretty simple .

I did take a  14 day free subscription to MarineTraffic once... it is pretty impressive.

$10 a day, $3650 a year for the full deal ... have to give your credit card details and if you don't cancel before end of 14 days you pay for the year... 

However , if you cancel immediately after signing up ( just so you don't forget )  you still get the 14 days.

Go on... try it... you know you want too.........

Meanwhile... I read somewhere... some country or other... single handed = 14 days Q, 2 people = 28 days... etc 

Logic  - apparently first crew sails with it... passes it on to second crew at 14 days.... second crew still capable of passing on at 28 days.... seems plausible...

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8 hours ago, Ajax said:

Is it crazy to use a GPS log as proof that you've been underway and thus quarantined for 14+ days?  If the track shows continuous movement between port of origin and destination, why isn't that a good way to prove self-isolation?

Ajax, I could fake a GPS track. Trust me. I could feed it to an AIS transmitter too. So no, I wouldn't accept it as proof of anything.

WRT Sassafrass' comments, yes, I agree - cruisers can be made to comply and we could open up at least one port of entry with appropriate quarantine, hard-standing et al.

We *could*. But there is zero political reason to do it and it would take management resources dedicated to it. I'd do it but I don't make decisions. Those who do, fact is the cruising fraternity are not voters, have no influence, are going to get no attention and nobody cares about them.

Doing something involves the risk of making a mistake and getting your name in the press. Saying NO is safer. Especially when you consider that a non-zero number of cruisers are self-entitled arseholes who WILL break any and all rules just because they feel like it. Look at the threads here about cruisers who try to smuggle foodstuffs et al into Australia despite crystal clear rules. Those types are why there's little sympathy for the rest of you, even from people like myself.

FKT

 

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Europe applies the same standard to the "refugees" who knowingly pile into overloaded dinghies and wait until they are 12 miles off the coast of Greece or Sicily before broadcasting a Pan Pan. They are actually pretty blunt it about it being an emergency of one's own making. Conversely, here in the US we are being led to believe it's our solemn duty to take in and house, feed, school and provide health care for people who trek 1,000 miles across a benign third party country to arrive at our borders well fed and in reasonably good health while they look around for jobs that pay six times what they can make at home. If we don't, we have the Pope shaking his finger at us and benighted immigration advocates shrieking that we're condemning them to rampant Covid outbreaks in confined detention centers.

Could we hire some Aussies, Kiwis, Greeks and Italians for our Immigration and Naturalization Service?

(I know, I know......thread drift)

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51 minutes ago, kinardly said:

Europe applies the same standard to the "refugees" who knowingly pile into overloaded dinghies and wait until they are 12 miles off the coast of Greece or Sicily before broadcasting a Pan Pan. They are actually pretty blunt it about it being an emergency of one's own making. Conversely, here in the US we are being led to believe it's our solemn duty to take in and house, feed, school and provide health care for people who trek 1,000 miles across a benign third party country to arrive at our borders well fed and in reasonably good health while they look around for jobs that pay six times what they can make at home. If we don't, we have the Pope shaking his finger at us and benighted immigration advocates shrieking that we're condemning them to rampant Covid outbreaks in confined detention centers.

Could we hire some Aussies, Kiwis, Greeks and Italians for our Immigration and Naturalization Service?

(I know, I know......thread drift)

How about some Germans?

arbeit_macht_frei1.jpg

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58 minutes ago, kinardly said:

Europe applies the same standard to the "refugees" who knowingly pile into overloaded dinghies and wait until they are 12 miles off the coast of Greece or Sicily before broadcasting a Pan Pan. They are actually pretty blunt it about it being an emergency of one's own making. Conversely, here in the US we are being led to believe it's our solemn duty to take in and house, feed, school and provide health care for people who trek 1,000 miles across a benign third party country to arrive at our borders well fed and in reasonably good health while they look around for jobs that pay six times what they can make at home. If we don't, we have the Pope shaking his finger at us and benighted immigration advocates shrieking that we're condemning them to rampant Covid outbreaks in confined detention centers.

Could we hire some Aussies, Kiwis, Greeks and Italians for our Immigration and Naturalization Service?

(I know, I know......thread drift)

Shhh! Shhhhhh!!!

You can't say shit like that! Black helicopters are coming for you!

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7 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Not Americans,  but it appears that NZ is definitely Not Fucking Around. 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12368207

This kind of dumbassery is what started this thread.

These people have demonstrated that yachties can't be trusted and won't mind the rules.

Their risk was immaterial, they were denied admission but came anyway.

These kind of incidents will, I suspect, make it harder for people trying to follow the rules to get approved. It's maddening.

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Admiral Byng comes to mind... as Voltaire said...

it necessary from time to time to shoot an admiral “pour encourager les autres”

Make an example of one.... the rest will stay put...

I hope the Zataras have taken notice.....

 

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In fact it is rather sad the Zataras didn't go the 'full Byng'...

 

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10 minutes ago, Cisco said:

Admiral Byng comes to mind... as Voltaire said...

it necessary from time to time to shoot an admiral “pour encourager les autres”

Make an example of one.... the rest will stay put...

I hope the Zataras have taken notice.....

 

One gets the sense from the wording of the officials that these folks will be made an example of.

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:5175281/mmsi:211259990/imo:0/vessel:ANITA/_:dd0a3fc1b34fe16a9564281fcd2c7a73

 

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Strange that it was germans.... I would be thinking it would be a french boat... but then they are OK in FP

Germans tend to follow orders.... the French? not so much....

A little story... which you may or may not find mildly amusing...

Arriving Puerto Williams ( just a day sail north of Cabo de Hornos) after a spin around Isla Gordon a few years ago...

German boat an hour ahead... chit chat on radio...

We give one hour ETA to port radio... bit of extra chat that I didn't understand... gave them the standard 'claro'... best thing to say when in doubt

On arrival we thread our way  through an Oppy regatta and take plum spot alongside Micalvi... german boat is anchored off....

They ( the other boat.. not the port ) were not happy with us ... seems the 'marina' was closed  for the duration of the regatta ... 

Cabo de Hornos and Patagonia ? Last frontier? Dream on....

 

DSC_0208.jpg

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1 hour ago, Cisco said:

Strange that it was germans.... I would be thinking it would be a french boat... but then they are OK in FP

Germans tend to follow orders.... the French? not so much....

A little story... which you may or may not find mildly amusing...

Arriving Puerto Williams ( just a day sail north of Cabo de Hornos) after a spin around Isla Gordon a few years ago...

German boat an hour ahead... chit chat on radio...

We give one hour ETA to port radio... bit of extra chat that I didn't understand... gave them the standard 'claro'... best thing to say when in doubt

On arrival we thread our way  through an Oppy regatta and take plum spot alongside Micalvi... german boat is anchored off....

They ( the other boat.. not the port ) were not happy with us ... seems the 'marina' was closed  for the duration of the regatta ... 

Cabo de Hornos and Patagonia ? Last frontier? Dream on....

 

DSC_0208.jpg

the Macalavi..... thats the one and only place I've docked under spinakker...... feb 1988, oh and nice glimpse of the dentistes in the background

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2 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

One gets the sense from the wording of the officials that these folks will be made an example of.

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:5175281/mmsi:211259990/imo:0/vessel:ANITA/_:dd0a3fc1b34fe16a9564281fcd2c7a73

 

Yeah having your boat siezed throw on a plane and fines seems just short of Turkish prison bad.  Guessing this will put a hard tack on anyone else considering just showing up and hoping for the best.

The irony of some of the exemptions is hard to miss.  I can't think of a higher risk vessel to allow into a country for spread of covid than a foreign fishing vessel.  Economics meets politics makes policy.  Wouldn't be surprised if one brings in a bunch of cases.

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I'm sure the article was a typo. Only Americans would do something like this.

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3 hours ago, Cisco said:

Strange that it was germans.... I would be thinking it would be a french boat... but then they are OK in FP

Germans tend to follow orders.... the French? not so much....

 

On average, French people tend to be quite good to sense when they can get away with disobeying the rules and when they can't...

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23 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

On average, French people tend to be quite good to sense when they can get away with disobeying the rules and when they can't...

Yah. The whole notion that German follow rules doesn’t ring thru when they’re outside of Germany. 

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Kevin seems to go sailing with minimal difficulties...... wonder what the difference is?

 

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