Temptation

Got an opinion? Let’s hear it - boatdesign.net is utterly worthless

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You asked for it.

Read any thread there and within 3 responses the forum trolls will descend like the vultures they are with their holier than thou NA horseshit. The moderator is most likely AdFoc, possibly the most obnoxious troll ever seen on any forum, and the purpose of this hate site is to funnel all boat builders to one of the engineers listed in their directory, while making money from running ads from sponsors.

A typical example:

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/mast-compression-post-question.53111/page-2

 

AdTroll said: 
Naval Architects/Engineers, don't anticipate. We calculate.

If the post was not stiff/strong enough do you still think it would be there??

Can you see me down here from your high horse?

We all know it's all based on approximations. I do not believe that you can even accurately estimate the range of dynamic loading a mast can experience

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/mast-compression-post-question.53111/

 

The entire regulatory framework for boat engineering rests on safety factors reverse engineered from "successful" designs (as determined by the various bodies) and NOT on first principals with FEA analysis - a fact that the trolls refuse to conceede

ISO has the gall to charge hundreds of Euros per document, many are needed, while ABS freely distributes them. even the simplest calculations become a gordian knot of nonsense with no explanation as to why these values are used:

 

Freeboard Length (Lf) (2018)
Lf is the distance in meters (feet) on a waterline at 85% of the least molded depth measured from the top of the keel from the fore side of the stem to the centerline of the rudder stock or 96% of the length on that waterline, whichever is greater. Where the stem is a fair concave curve above the waterline at 85% of the least molded depth and where the aftermost point of the stem is above the waterline, the forward end of the length, Lf, is to be taken at the aftermost point of the stem above that waterline. See 3-1-1/Figure 1.
In ships designed with a raked keel, the waterline on which this length is measured is to be parallel to the designed waterline.

Huh?

and all this applies to "0.4L amidships" which means what exactly? .4L for and aft from midships?  or .4L with amidships in the middle ie .2L behind midships and .2L in front?  

Top of the keel (where in sam hell is that?)... stem is a fair concave curve (and if its convex?) .... aftermost point of the stem (that would be stern?) ... forward end of the length   .....  Molded depth... Pfff

I venture to guess that NA school, whatever or wherever that is, has about as much to do with engineering from first principals as Donald duck has to do with aquatic foul.  An engineer could be forgiven for thinking that this body of knowledge boils down to the study of regs. That is where boatdesign.crap comes in. Every answer is "consult an NA". (and pay 20% of the boat value for the privilege of having simple equations understood.

and that concludes my OPINION.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Que? 

 

Are you looking for sympathy?  

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And you're posting this on on THIS forum?:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

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sheesh, wait till he meets DL.

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There is nothing that I know of like sailing anarchy.

Every experience I've had with other sites/forums has been a disappointment.

From moderators controlling their own private fiefdom to contributors being condescending and unwelcoming.

 

Fuck those cunts!

 

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4 hours ago, Temptation said:

...

I venture to guess that NA school, whatever or wherever that is, has about as much to do with engineering from first principals as Donald duck has to do with aquatic foul.  ....

 

So, ignorance puts you in the properly located seat of judgement?

Why don't you ask what the Naval Architects study, if you want to know? If you ask for a specific problem to be solved, or even get a range of possible solutions, it's not out of bounds IMHO to ask how those answers were derived.

I'm not that familiar with FEA but Euler is only a slight mystery to me. I have not particiapted in boatdesign.net for a few years but last time I did, I thought it was OK. Maybe it's changed a lot, or maybe you need to clean the shit out of your ears if you don't like what you hear.

- DSK

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54 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

So, ignorance puts you in the properly located seat of judgement?

Why don't you ask what the Naval Architects study, if you want to know? If you ask for a specific problem to be solved, or even get a range of possible solutions, it's not out of bounds IMHO to ask how those answers were derived.

I'm not that familiar with FEA but Euler is only a slight mystery to me. I have not particiapted in boatdesign.net for a few years but last time I did, I thought it was OK. Maybe it's changed a lot, or maybe you need to clean the shit out of your ears if you don't like what you hear.

- DSK

Did you read the thread i posted? It speaks for itself.

Are there any members here that build steel boats and know how to engineer them?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Did you read the thread i posted? It speaks for itself.

Are there any members here that build steel boats and know how to engineer them?

 

Yes.

I don't speak for them, but so far, they're not impressed with you

FB- Doug

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10 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Yes.

I don't speak for them, but so far, they're not impressed with you

FB- Doug

I asked several questions in my post above. As for Euler buckling, the hardest part of that is finding the sectional area and smallest moment of inertia. Simple in a cad program )

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28 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Did you read the thread i posted?

 

 

why would someone do that

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52 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Did you read the thread i posted? It speaks for itself.

It does indeed, but maybe not in the way that you think.

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3 minutes ago, JimC said:

It does indeed, but maybe not in the way that you think.

perhaps you would care to explain that cryptic comment... Inuendo doesnt really redress the points I made 

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3 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

I’m just here for the tits. 

Ya.. as I thought. You guys asked for opinions, but when they come, you just troll... Ok

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C’mon. 
Traditions are traditions

669085A1-1B8D-4D8B-9575-FA73EE6205D2.jpeg

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Its all about the number of psychiatrists needed to change a lightbulb.

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6 hours ago, Temptation said:

I venture to guess that NA school, whatever or wherever that is, has about as much to do with engineering from first principals as Donald duck has to do with aquatic foul. 

The largest NA school in the US is the Department of Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering, part of the College of Engineering at the University of Michigan - one of the top engineering schools in the US.

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4 minutes ago, JimC said:

Its all about the number of psychiatrists needed to change a lightbulb.

Does the lightbulb REALLY want to change?

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24 minutes ago, JimC said:

Its all about the number of psychiatrists needed to change a lightbulb.

Some Prozac and the lightbulb should be fixed.

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38 minutes ago, slap said:

The largest NA school in the US is the Department of Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering, part of the College of Engineering at the University of Michigan - one of the top engineering schools in the US.

Thank you for that I am being a little disparaging perhaps. I am sure there are some fine engineers out there but the ones on boatdesign.net are the only representation I have seen and frankly, about the last thing I would do is consult any of them on any topic.

Still hoping for a decoding of the language I posted.

PS where is the ignore button. Seems like you have a village idiot on this forum like every other...

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Temptation said:

PS where is the ignore button. Seems like you have a village idiot on this forum like every other...

Son, you just have no idea what kind of idiots post in this village.

The responses to you looked pretty normal to me.

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7 hours ago, Temptation said:

Freeboard Length (Lf) (2018)

Lf is the distance in meters (feet) on a waterline at 85% of the least molded depth measured from the top of the keel from the fore side of the stem to the centerline of the rudder stock or 96% of the length on that waterline, whichever is greater. Where the stem is a fair concave curve above the waterline at 85% of the least molded depth and where the aftermost point of the stem is above the waterline, the forward end of the length, Lf, is to be taken at the aftermost point of the stem above that waterline. See 3-1-1/Figure 1.
In ships designed with a raked keel, the waterline on which this length is measured is to be parallel to the designed waterline.

Huh?

and all this applies to "0.4L amidships" which means what exactly? .4L for and aft from midships?  or .4L with amidships in the middle ie .2L behind midships and .2L in front?  

Top of the keel (where in sam hell is that?)... stem is a fair concave curve (and if its convex?) .... aftermost point of the stem (that would be stern?) ... forward end of the length   .....  Molded depth... Pfff

This stuff seems to come for regulatory documents. The terminology and complex definitions are simply ways to try and get agreed terms that fit 90% of the situations.

Most of these things come with drawings that you can consult. For example  https://www.dco.uscg.mil/LLLength/

This has little to do with first principles engineering, and a lot to do with compliance.

 

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7 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:
11 minutes ago, Temptation said:

PS where is the ignore button. Seems like you have a village idiot on this forum like every other...

Son, you just have no idea what kind of idiots post in this village.

The responses to you looked pretty normal to me.

Ime am sorrey, I mistackenley thouht he wase tryeng to putte hisselfe on ingnore.                         :)

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I am sorry if an engineer banged your wife, we are not all like this.

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I really don't care about forums I am not on. If you have some engineering question, just ask and we'll post pictures of big tits and argue about the 4th mode all day to keep you entertained :D

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23 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

This stuff seems to come for regulatory documents. The terminology and complex definitions are simply ways to try and get agreed terms that fit 90% of the situations.

Most of these things come with drawings that you can consult. For example  https://www.dco.uscg.mil/LLLength/

This has little to do with first principles engineering, and a lot to do with compliance.

 

Yes it is compliance. Its abs and I was trying to see what im aiming at with FEA Gerr has a much simpler approach but tends to be overly heavy. I used the US coast guard defn. I figured it applied, but they dont define how FP is determined with different shapes and overhangs of bows. Also I am not sure what 0.4L refers to. is that .2 either side of midline, or .4 either side of midline

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43 minutes ago, Temptation said:

 Seems like you have a village idiot on this forum like every other...

Well, we do now.

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If you’re good at something you don’t do it for free. 

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4 minutes ago, Miffy said:

If you’re good at something you don’t do it for free. 

Yeah.  Look how much Brent Swain charges for a set of plans!   

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And worth every penny.

image.png.9f6d8ff6981c8d713b7a39b706299293.pngimage.thumb.png.d2c1b8d8e20bb8b3b10cf3a082b0fef0.png

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1 hour ago, Temptation said:

Yes it is compliance. Its abs and I was trying to see what im aiming at with FEA Gerr has a much simpler approach but tends to be overly heavy. I used the US coast guard defn. I figured it applied, but they dont define how FP is determined with different shapes and overhangs of bows. Also I am not sure what 0.4L refers to. is that .2 either side of midline, or .4 either side of midline

Then you will probably have to keep digging to find the supporting documents, or pay someone who has already gone through this to show you where this stuff is documented. Asking for a quick answer on the internet sometimes yields results or at least a pointed in the right direction, but sometimes not.

The website I linked refers to the international convention on load lines, I take it you have read that document? (I have not, it does not interest me, but if I was trying to figure this stuff out that would probably be where I looked next.)

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3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

C’mon. 
Traditions are traditions

669085A1-1B8D-4D8B-9575-FA73EE6205D2.jpeg

Holy Gravity, Batman!

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@Temptation

I don't get your complaint.

gonzo answered your query in the 1st response to your question.  The compression strut can be smaller than the mast because it is shorter.  What is your gripe?

talk about getting high and mighty- you are the one railing on naval architects and engineers.  As a nav. arch. who has been doing ship design and engineering for the Navy for 30 years, I can tell you the engineering is pretty good.  You design a friggin billion dollar warship to withstand an ocean and see how well you do. 

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If you are consulting ABS Rules for guidance on how to design / specify your trimaran, you are looking in the wrong direction.  There are plenty of good resources our there to guide you.

https://www.nauticalmind.com/product-category/design/

https://www.nauticalmind.com/product-category/boat-construction/

https://www.sname.org/pubs/books

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3 hours ago, Temptation said:

Thank you for that I am being a little disparaging perhaps. I am sure there are some fine engineers out there but the ones on boatdesign.net are the only representation I have seen and frankly, about the last thing I would do is consult any of them on any topic.

Still hoping for a decoding of the language I posted.

PS where is the ignore button. Seems like you have a village idiot on this forum like every other...

 

 

Well you don't seem so happy on boatdesign.net and not on a great trajectory here for your first day...

I've seen some pretty useful resources show up both there and here.

If you want to get value from them it might be worth reflecting on other engagement strategies.

If you don't wish to, then why go to either place.

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10 hours ago, Temptation said:

You asked for it.

We only asked for pics of your woman’s tits. That’s what we are here for. You could at least comply with the simple rules of conduct upon entering this hallowed hall and you shall find the answers to your questions.

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7 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

There is nothing that I know of like sailing anarchy.

Every experience I've had with other sites/forums has been a disappointment.

 to contributors being condescending and unwelcoming.

 

 

 

I find it somewhat disheartening that there are contributors who are more condescending and unwelcoming than us lot.  

We are clearly slacking.

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Judging by some of the responses in the linked boatdesign.net thread, I think Temptation (Jetboys) reputation precedes him.

I find most of the responses I've gotten on boatdesign.net to be informative - no trolling, at least not that I have been subject.  And the poster known as Adhoc on there usually provides excellent and insightful comments - one of the more knowledgable posters on there IMO.  Jetboy must have really put a bee in his bonnet to illicit a response like that. 

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59 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

Judging by some of the responses in the linked boatdesign.net thread, I think Temptation (Jetboys) reputation precedes him.

I find most of the responses I've gotten on boatdesign.net to be informative - no trolling, at least not that I have been subject.  And the poster known as Adhoc on there usually provides excellent and insightful comments - one of the more knowledgable posters on there IMO.  Jetboy must have really put a bee in his bonnet to illicit a response like that. 

Perhaps you missed this thread... all 71 pages of it

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/origami-steel-yacht-construction.248/page-11

 

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4 hours ago, Temptation said:

Yes it is compliance. Its abs and I was trying to see what im aiming at with FEA Gerr has a much simpler approach but tends to be overly heavy. I used the US coast guard defn. I figured it applied, but they dont define how FP is determined with different shapes and overhangs of bows. Also I am not sure what 0.4L refers to. is that .2 either side of midline, or .4 either side of midline

Coast Guard probably doesn't have a clue either... They have really painted themselves in a corner with all the obscure crap they put out.

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9 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Perhaps you missed this thread... all 71 pages of it

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/origami-steel-yacht-construction.248/page-11

 

Yes, I missed it because I was referring to the link you originally posted about the compression post, which is this one: https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/mast-compression-post-question.53111/page-2

I'm sure as fuck not going to read a 71 page thread on origami boat construction.  Even though I admit Adhoc is condescending in his posts - it is only because he is responding to Brent Swain, which can be like pounding your head against the wall, as I'm sure Bob Perry can attest.

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Boat design has some real heavyweights onboard who are generous with their time, ask a good question and you'll get a great answer. Like anywhere theres idiots but you have to filter them out. Idiots like Temptation who might have serious man love for origami 

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The compression post is a simple engineering concept and they really didn't need to go into that level of detail.  I'm not a navel architect but I did get a B is structural steel design.

Long compression columns will buckle if they are not restricted from moving horizontally along their length. Some columns may need support every xx feet but if the post is short enough it does not need to be supported.

In the case of your compression post, the downward force of the mast is a combination of dead loads and live loads (weight of mast and force of rigging at rest and then the loads of it moving around).  These loads are calculated and the cheapest column that can handle downward force is selected.  The lateral loads are supported by the connection to the deck.

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5 hours ago, Temptation said:

Thank you for that I am being a little disparaging perhaps. I am sure there are some fine engineers out there but the ones on boatdesign.net are the only representation I have seen and frankly, about the last thing I would do is consult any of them on any topic.

Still hoping for a decoding of the language I posted.

PS where is the ignore button. Seems like you have a village idiot on this forum like every other...

 

 

did u use to deliver j24 trailer boats?

 

two-old-ragged-dirty-white-cotton-socks-

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Wow, what a shitty trollfest.

Funny enough though, it was properly answered on the first reply.:

image.thumb.png.12786dc21306387c290f5a28806beea1.png

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4 hours ago, Temptation said:

Perhaps you missed this thread... all 71 pages of it

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/origami-steel-yacht-construction.248/page-11

 

Missed it? Quite a few of us were PART of it. We allowed Brent every opportunity to put forward some decent engineering and he failed abysmally. He dug himself such a deep hole that he's never found a way out.

If you're in any way sympathetic to Brent, here's my reaction. Fuck off and figure out stuff for yourself.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:
6 hours ago, Temptation said:

Perhaps you missed this thread... all 71 pages of it

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/origami-steel-yacht-construction.248/page-11

 

Missed it? Quite a few of us were PART of it. We allowed Brent every opportunity to put forward some decent engineering and he failed abysmally. He dug himself such a deep hole that he's never found a way out.

If you're in any way sympathetic to Brent, here's my reaction. Fuck off and figure out stuff for yourself.

It seems like Brent is probably missing some engineering solutions in his "designs."

During the course of discussion here, Brent was not only unable to answer engineering questions but he didn't believe there even is such a thing as engineering, other than smarty pants elitists who aren't cruisers (except that many are, and far more widely experienced) and who don't have his ARTISTRY with steel (except that his welds look like shit... I'm not a welder but I QA'd pressure vessel welding for some years as part of my engineering career), trying to tell him that his incredibly high opinion of himself was inaccurate.

And now it looks like Brent may have snuck back to try and get some smarty-pants engineers to do his homework for him.

FB- Doug

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11 hours ago, Temptation said:

Thank you for that I am being a little disparaging perhaps. I am sure there are some fine engineers out there but the ones on boatdesign.net are the only representation I have seen and frankly, about the last thing I would do is consult any of them on any topic.

Still hoping for a decoding of the language I posted.

PS where is the ignore button. Seems like you have a village idiot on this forum like every other...

 

 

I am an N.A. I do not participate on that other forumd. Very few do.

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19 hours ago, Temptation said:

You asked for it.

Read any thread there and within 3 responses the forum trolls will descend like the vultures they are with their holier than thou NA horseshit. The moderator is most likely AdFoc, possibly the most obnoxious troll ever seen on any forum, and the purpose of this hate site is to funnel all boat builders to one of the engineers listed in their directory, while making money from running ads from sponsors.

A typical example:

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/mast-compression-post-question.53111/page-2

 

AdTroll said: 
Naval Architects/Engineers, don't anticipate. We calculate.

If the post was not stiff/strong enough do you still think it would be there??

Can you see me down here from your high horse?

We all know it's all based on approximations. I do not believe that you can even accurately estimate the range of dynamic loading a mast can experience

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/mast-compression-post-question.53111/

 

The entire regulatory framework for boat engineering rests on safety factors reverse engineered from "successful" designs (as determined by the various bodies) and NOT on first principals with FEA analysis - a fact that the trolls refuse to conceede

ISO has the gall to charge hundreds of Euros per document, many are needed, while ABS freely distributes them. even the simplest calculations become a gordian knot of nonsense with no explanation as to why these values are used:

 

Freeboard Length (Lf) (2018)
Lf is the distance in meters (feet) on a waterline at 85% of the least molded depth measured from the top of the keel from the fore side of the stem to the centerline of the rudder stock or 96% of the length on that waterline, whichever is greater. Where the stem is a fair concave curve above the waterline at 85% of the least molded depth and where the aftermost point of the stem is above the waterline, the forward end of the length, Lf, is to be taken at the aftermost point of the stem above that waterline. See 3-1-1/Figure 1.
In ships designed with a raked keel, the waterline on which this length is measured is to be parallel to the designed waterline.

Huh?

and all this applies to "0.4L amidships" which means what exactly? .4L for and aft from midships?  or .4L with amidships in the middle ie .2L behind midships and .2L in front?  

Top of the keel (where in sam hell is that?)... stem is a fair concave curve (and if its convex?) .... aftermost point of the stem (that would be stern?) ... forward end of the length   .....  Molded depth... Pfff

I venture to guess that NA school, whatever or wherever that is, has about as much to do with engineering from first principals as Donald duck has to do with aquatic foul.  An engineer could be forgiven for thinking that this body of knowledge boils down to the study of regs. That is where boatdesign.crap comes in. Every answer is "consult an NA". (and pay 20% of the boat value for the privilege of having simple equations understood.

and that concludes my OPINION.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are so fucking over your head. You should shut up now. LLL and freeboards are not part of sailing yacht design. They are also a routine calculation with a long empirical history.

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like flies to shit, SA attracts people like Brentation et al for a little midnight stroll. They deserve their inevitable keyboard beatings.

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12 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

C’mon. 
Traditions are traditions

amy-anderson-big-fake-tits-bikini-801x12

FIFY

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

I am an N.A. I do not participate on that other forumd. Very few do.

Where do you participate in engineering discussions?

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It is true, engineers and nav arch's use approximations and standards to design things. Often it is much easier to determine a peak load rather than an operating load, but things still need to withstand peak loads. Often risk is the determining factor, higher the risk the greater the design cost to mitigate it.

An Euler calculation for a pillar is usually more than sufficient. Pillars have incredible bearing capacity relative to their size, to the point where absurdly fine pillars can sometimes be sufficient, but impractical for a variety of reasons.

It sounds like you want to be an engineer. Go and study for a few years, then get a few years experience.

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2 hours ago, Ncik said:

It is true, engineers and nav arch's use approximations and standards to design things. Often it is much easier to determine a peak load rather than an operating load, but things still need to withstand peak loads. Often risk is the determining factor, higher the risk the greater the design cost to mitigate it.

An Euler calculation for a pillar is usually more than sufficient. Pillars have incredible bearing capacity relative to their size, to the point where absurdly fine pillars can sometimes be sufficient, but impractical for a variety of reasons.

It sounds like you want to be an engineer. Go and study for a few years, then get a few years experience.

Thx for the response (and ignoring the condescension for now). I graduated a very long time ago in Engineering, however, I did not study naval regs that are often unintelligible, conflict with each other and themselves, cost a fortune, and based upon boats that are very dissimilar. For me its easier to calculate from first principals and skip the endless opinions of reg interpretations. 

Whats not clear about pillars, is how to design stays and shrouds to prevent buckling and take out large loads from a GZ righting moment from 30deg of heel - a design number that in practice a steel boat would never reach. For plastic cats this trivial. For larger wooden masts not so much

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We mean it when we request that the nastiness and petty bickering come to a halt. I'm sorry I have to close this thread as I was enjoying the information being presented.

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58 minutes ago, Temptation said:

 30deg of heel - a design number that in practice a steel boat would never reach

Why not? If it has adequate sail area and reasonable form stability a big gust of wind should heel a steel boat just as much as any other type.

You are not correct about how rigs are engineered. Some NA's use some very basic calculations (get a copy of Skene's Elements of Yacht Design from any big library) to design a basic rig. You can use that as a reference. For a more modern book buy a copy of Principles of Yacht Design  - Lars Larsson and Rolf Eliasson.

Some folks at the higher end use integrated FEA rig/sail models that do load the rig based on sailing loads. Yes dynamic loads can be higher but high end racing boats have had load cells and recording data recorders for decades so the loads ARE well understood.

 

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9 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Why not? If it has adequate sail area and reasonable form stability a big gust of wind should heel a steel boat just as much as any other type.

Pretty sure I've had mine at over 30 deg in a heavy gust...

FKT

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Pretty sure I've had mine at over 30 deg in a heavy gust...

>Why not? If it has adequate sail area and reasonable form stability a big gust of wind should heel a steel boat just as much as any other type.

 

Apples and bannanas... your plastic/wood boat prolly has a SAD > 20, steel cruisers are much less. With a full rig, even at 17, if you do the math, it would take F9 to cause almost 30deg heel. How many people carry full rig in F9? 20Deg is probably all you would ever see and that aggressive 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Ncik said:

It is true, engineers and nav arch's use approximations and standards to design things. Often it is much easier to determine a peak load rather than an operating load, but things still need to withstand peak loads. Often risk is the determining factor, higher the risk the greater the design cost to mitigate it.

An Euler calculation for a pillar is usually more than sufficient. Pillars have incredible bearing capacity relative to their size, to the point where absurdly fine pillars can sometimes be sufficient, but impractical for a variety of reasons.

It sounds like you want to be an engineer. Go and study for a few years, then get a few years experience.

And sometimes when people doubt the design you can do a load test

jwpcolts.jpg

FL Wright - SC Johnson headquartrs - the building inspector was not happy with his supporting columns...empiricism won out

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4 hours ago, Temptation said:

Thx for the response (and ignoring the condescension for now). I graduated a very long time ago in Engineering, however, I did not study naval regs that are often unintelligible, conflict with each other and themselves, cost a fortune, and based upon boats that are very dissimilar. For me its easier to calculate from first principals and skip the endless opinions of reg interpretations. 

Whats not clear about pillars, is how to design stays and shrouds to prevent buckling and take out large loads from a GZ righting moment from 30deg of heel - a design number that in practice a steel boat would never reach. For plastic cats this trivial. For larger wooden masts not so much

From which school?

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8 minutes ago, KC375 said:

And sometimes when people doubt the design you can do a load test

jwpcolts.jpg

FL Wright - SC Johnson headquartrs - the building inspector was not happy with his supporting columns...empiricism won out

The billdere at Falleng Watere wase afraide to remoove the concrete formes on canterleverred decks untille FLW stoode nexto hime.                            :)

fallingwater-1440x640.jpg

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8 hours ago, VWAP said:

FIFY

Wow what’s that in that armpit ?

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4 hours ago, Temptation said:

Thx for the response (and ignoring the condescension for now). I graduated a very long time ago in Engineering, however, I did not study naval regs that are often unintelligible, conflict with each other and themselves, cost a fortune, and based upon boats that are very dissimilar. For me its easier to calculate from first principals and skip the endless opinions of reg interpretations. 

Whats not clear about pillars, is how to design stays and shrouds to prevent buckling and take out large loads from a GZ righting moment from 30deg of heel - a design number that in practice a steel boat would never reach. For plastic cats this trivial. For larger wooden masts not so much

if you want to be an engineer about it and use 1st principles, then do it!  It's not a complex structure.  Go back to your free body diagram and do the analysis, fer crissakes.

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6 hours ago, Temptation said:

Thx for the response (and ignoring the condescension for now).

Let us know when you plan on addressing the condescension and I’m glad FKT came by to say fuck off, loser.

Fastyacht can stay and babysit you for a bit until Mommy comes and gets you

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17 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Wow, what a shitty trollfest.

Funny enough though, it was properly answered on the first reply.:

image.thumb.png.12786dc21306387c290f5a28806beea1.png

Yeah, but that was 5 years  ago and this kid is looking to learn everything WillPoprter, Taunton,  BobP and yourself learned in one easy to digest thread. 
 

And let’s keep this thread a little mature, we’re not dealing with a full deck here.

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2 hours ago, Temptation said:

Apples and bannanas... your plastic/wood boat prolly has a SAD > 20, steel cruisers are much less. With a full rig, even at 17, if you do the math, it would take F9 to cause almost 30deg heel. How many people carry full rig in F9? 20Deg is probably all you would ever see and that aggressive 

 

 

Have you ever sailed?

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2 hours ago, Temptation said:

>Why not? If it has adequate sail area and reasonable form stability a big gust of wind should heel a steel boat just as much as any other type.

 

Apples and bannanas... your plastic/wood boat prolly has a SAD > 20, steel cruisers are much less. With a full rig, even at 17, if you do the math, it would take F9 to cause almost 30deg heel. How many people carry full rig in F9? 20Deg is probably all you would ever see and that aggressive 

 

 

You may be unpleasantly surprised re how little form stability a set of shitty plans offer & how little RM you have until you heel over 20°. 
 

But you’re the ENGINEERERRRERRR. I’m sure you can figure it all out. 

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2 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

The billdere at Falleng Watere wase afraide to remoove the concrete formes on canterleverred decks untille FLW stoode nexto hime.                            :)

fallingwater-1440x640.jpg

https://old.post-gazette.com/lifestyle/20011208lowry1208fnp3.asp

They are by now the stuff of legend. Edgar Kaufmann's engineer thought the beams should have more reinforcing steel than Wright's engineers specified. It was Kaufmann's house; he won. Workers doubled the amount of one-inch-square bars in each beam from eight to 16. It wasn't enough. When they removed the wooden formwork supporting the first floor, the terrace sagged 44.5 millimeters -- about 1 3/4 inches. 

Kaufmann recorded the terrace's movement periodically until his death in 1955, but between then and 1995 only one or two random measurements were taken. That was the year the Western Pennsylvania Conservancy hired Robert Silman Associates of New York to examine the obvious structural problems. 

Silman found that the living room terrace had deflected as much as 7 inches and, without intervention, someday would fall into Bear Run. 

"That was a sobering day, when we heard that from the engineers," said Sarah Beyer, Fallingwater's curator of education, at the end of a recent Hard Hat Restoration Tour.

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30 minutes ago, VWAP said:

https://old.post-gazette.com/lifestyle/20011208lowry1208fnp3.asp

They are by now the stuff of legend. Edgar Kaufmann's engineer thought the beams should have more reinforcing steel than Wright's engineers specified. It was Kaufmann's house; he won. Workers doubled the amount of one-inch-square bars in each beam from eight to 16. It wasn't enough. When they removed the wooden formwork supporting the first floor, the terrace sagged 44.5 millimeters -- about 1 3/4 inches. 

Kaufmann recorded the terrace's movement periodically until his death in 1955, but between then and 1995 only one or two random measurements were taken. That was the year the Western Pennsylvania Conservancy hired Robert Silman Associates of New York to examine the obvious structural problems. 

Silman found that the living room terrace had deflected as much as 7 inches and, without intervention, someday would fall into Bear Run. 

"That was a sobering day, when we heard that from the engineers," said Sarah Beyer, Fallingwater's curator of education, at the end of a recent Hard Hat Restoration Tour.

I was on a tour when they had the floor up on the outdoor portions of the main floor to redo the structure.  That was the coolest part of the tour!  Really amazing house.

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Decision, decisions

F839DEAC-5D93-4EB4-B873-4828625E385C.jpeg

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7 hours ago, Temptation said:

Thx for the response (and ignoring the condescension for now). I graduated a very long time ago in Engineering, however, I did not study naval regs that are often unintelligible, conflict with each other and themselves, cost a fortune, and based upon boats that are very dissimilar. For me its easier to calculate from first principals and skip the endless opinions of reg interpretations. 

Whats not clear about pillars, is how to design stays and shrouds to prevent buckling and take out large loads from a GZ righting moment from 30deg of heel - a design number that in practice a steel boat would never reach. For plastic cats this trivial. For larger wooden masts not so much

I am not sure where you studied engineering but you were either asleep the whole time or got some really poor teaching.

Save yourself some embarrassment, spend an hour or two reading about buckling and you will realise why they fobbed you off. On the other hand if you've been to some drama school, let us know where it was as you are keeping us all entertained and the teaching there was obviously outstanding!

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29 minutes ago, bgytr said:

I was on a tour when they had the floor up on the outdoor portions of the main floor to redo the structure.  That was the coolest part of the tour!  Really amazing house.

Replace amazing with uhhhh questionable decision making is what I got from the tour :D

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Did the engineers actually put the steel into the cantilevered pour while FLE was out of town and against his wishes?

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