JBOATTROUBLEMAKER

34-40 ft Cruiser Racer for 6-8 People

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Hello,

This topic is a follow up to a post in J boat anarchy regarding a J35 (one boat which I have since ruled out of my criteria for comfort reasons). I have a family of 6 who are all looking to get out on the water, but classically, only 2 of us are willing to bother to actually sail the boat, so looking for a shorthanded cruiser/racer in the 34-40 ft range for 50-75k  prefferably less than 25-30 years old. Boats I am currently considering are:

Jenneau SO37

Beneteau Oceanus 351

Hunter 36 (hate hunter products but still looking at this one)

Any suggestions are welcome and as this is a first large boat of this type (I owned a J92 a few years ago) and most of our family lacks sailing experience, we are looking for something easy, fun, and comfortable (hopefully fast-ish too).

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I think you need to decide what elements are most important in terms of layout (euro or traditional), rig (in mast furling or slab reefing) and draft, then home in on boats.  Personally in the class I like the jeanneau 35 and oceanis 361 but that is based on my preferences.  If you want more performance An older first 375 could be a good boat or a J37. You could also look at j35c or 110 but they are not terribly big for that given loa.

 

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38 minutes ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Hello,

This topic is a follow up to a post in J boat anarchy regarding a J35 (one boat which I have since ruled out of my criteria for comfort reasons). I have a family of 6 who are all looking to get out on the water, but classically, only 2 of us are willing to bother to actually sail the boat, so looking for a shorthanded cruiser/racer in the 34-40 ft range for 50-75k  prefferably less than 25-30 years old. Boats I am currently considering are:

Jenneau SO37

Beneteau Oceanus 351

Hunter 36 (hate hunter products but still looking at this one)

Any suggestions are welcome and as this is a first large boat of this type (I owned a J92 a few years ago) and most of our family lacks sailing experience, we are looking for something easy, fun, and comfortable (hopefully fast-ish too).

I have a friend who doublehands a Dufour 40e with his wife.  I don't know how common they are in the US. It's lovely inside and has a reasonable turn of speed.

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In your price range, if you're not willing to look at older boats I think your best bet is going to be to keep an eye out for a Beneteau First.  The three you mentioned will all be easy and comfy for six and fine for splashing around the bay, but racing would be a stretch.

Here's a thought: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2003/beneteau-first-36-7-3545351/

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1 hour ago, ChrisJD said:

In your price range, if you're not willing to look at older boats I think your best bet is going to be to keep an eye out for a Beneteau First.  The three you mentioned will all be easy and comfy for six and fine for splashing around the bay, but racing would be a stretch.

Here's a thought: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2003/beneteau-first-36-7-3545351/

I really like this boat, the only caveat is the interior quality vs the Jenneau, worth it for the performance, but questionable regarding my family's response

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1 hour ago, T sailor said:

I think you need to decide what elements are most important in terms of layout (euro or traditional), rig (in mast furling or slab reefing) and draft, then home in on boats.  Personally in the class I like the jeanneau 35 and oceanis 361 but that is based on my preferences.  If you want more performance An older first 375 could be a good boat or a J37. You could also look at j35c or 110 but they are not terribly big for that given loa.

 

I like the Jeannneau 35 as well, but looking at pricing, they seem to cost almost the same as a 37, which has more deck space. Yearly cost of course makes up the difference, a 37 footer would cost $3,200/yr to keep at my club, plus about 1-2,000 in yearly maintenance and upgrades = about 5,000/yr, a 35 footer would only cost a few hundred less, so I feel like the 37 is a better value.

My family likes the SO35, 37 because of the modern and well designed layout and interior.

The Oceanis 351 is the cheapest boat on my list by far (35k to 50k in price) and the 361 does not seem to be worth 20k extra (to me).

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The 361 has a more traditional layout and slab reefing (two things I like).  
 

The 36.7 is probably the best suggestion on the list if you want a faster boat.  It is much quicker than the Jeanneau’s.  There isn’t much difference in interior quality between a Beneteau or Jeanneau.  You should be able to get a decent one for $60k.  Hard to beat that value.  

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I love my Express 37 for this kind of use.  It's 10 years old than what you want, but that was also true of the J/35 that you were excited about.  In your price range you can get a nice one.  Build quality is higher than the Beneteaus and other boats listed.  The interior has a much nicer buildout than a J/35 plus there is 6' standing height in the main cabin (J/35 is a couple of inches less).  I also find the cockpit more comfortable with sloping seat bottoms and backs.

It sails very well.  It's easy to handle doublehanded (even without autopilot) with a non-overlapping jib and asymmetric kite tacked to the bow.  

The main cabin is big and has plenty of space for 6 people to hang out or eat dinner (though the table is for 4).  The boat sleeps 4 comfortably with decent privacy, 6 if you are okay getting cozy.  I love the quarterberth layout because it can either be a huge double where you sleep athwartships with lots of headroom or two singles where you sleep in line with the hull (and store sails in between).

Express 34 and Olson 34 are very similar boats but harder to find.

Here is a nice one that a friend is selling in Vancouver, BC: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/express-37-3675497/

 

 

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1 hour ago, Alex W said:

I love my Express 37 for this kind of use.  It's 10 years old than what you want, but that was also true of the J/35 that you were excited about.  In your price range you can get a nice one.  Build quality is higher than the Beneteaus and other boats listed.  The interior has a much nicer buildout than a J/35 plus there is 6' standing height in the main cabin (J/35 is a couple of inches less).  I also find the cockpit more comfortable with sloping seat bottoms and backs.

It sails very well.  It's easy to handle doublehanded (even without autopilot) with a non-overlapping jib and asymmetric kite tacked to the bow.  

The main cabin is big and has plenty of space for 6 people to hang out or eat dinner (though the table is for 4).  The boat sleeps 4 comfortably with decent privacy, 6 if you are okay getting cozy.  I love the quarterberth layout because it can either be a huge double where you sleep athwartships with lots of headroom or two singles where you sleep in line with the hull (and store sails in between).

Express 34 and Olson 34 are very similar boats but harder to find.

Here is a nice one that a friend is selling in Vancouver, BC: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/express-37-3675497/

 

 

After looking at a J35, I decided that I did not want the maintenance demands of a boat of this age. The build quality may well be as good as you say, still the age makes up the difference (also Jeanneau is known for excellent build quality). Dollar for Dollar, I see a newer boat as a better value,

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I don't really see it that way.

Once a boat is 10 years old the maintenance matters much more than the age.  10 years is enough time for poorly sealed deck penetrations to start leaking and make for soggy core.  Or for a poorly maintained engine to be run into the ground.  I don't see many time bombs that go off only at 30 years.

Assuming both are well maintained then you want the one that was better built.

Beneteau/Jeanneau is known for decent build quality, I don't think anyone would say that they are excellent.  It always bothered me that Jeanneau's cool 3D router for cutting out all deck penetrations couldn't also come back and properly seal them with epoxy.  It would minor additional hardware and programming but longer run time, but it would make a much better boat.

 

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I think that a Hanse 370 would be right for you although toward the upper range of your price bracket. It is super easy to handle, relatively fast comfy inside and goes well to weather.

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2 hours ago, Alex W said:

Once a boat is 10 years old the maintenance matters much more than the age.  10 years is enough time for poorly sealed deck penetrations to start leaking and make for soggy core.  Or for a poorly maintained engine to be run into the ground.  I don't see many time bombs that go off only at 30 years.

Seconded. For what it’s worth, we bought what was a pretty well-maintained 40-footer that squeaked in under the OP’s age limit (was 21 y.o. when we bought her) and are about $60k in so far in post-purchase maintenance costs in three years (not counting mooring, storage etc.) - and probably going to spend that again this upcoming winter. It just is what it is. I don’t think that a well-maintained 30-year-old boat would have been much different.

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Take a look at a Catalina 34, most seems to be shoal draft wing keel.  There are deep draft that may put it n more of a race boat mode.  Nice interior, huge head as most Catalina she a wide girl. The wing may get you in some places you would not go.  Catalina brings a company still in business, a great owners community.  The open transom begins in 90's is in your price range.  Will treat you better than a similar Hunter.

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Leftfield suggestion: a Dufour 35.  See https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/dufour-35

Older than you want, and slightly smaller too.  But created by one of the finest builder-designers of the era, and ahead of her time in many ways.

I dunno how many went to live in North America, but in Europe they are cheap enough to allow for a very big refit and still remain within your budget.

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Another leftfield suggestion: Swan 38. Here one within  budget: https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1974/nautor-swan-38-3621535/

Teak deck needs replacing, so you'll have either a load of work or a huge yard bill.  But if you like S&S classic Swans, they are within reach.  

(Personally, I think that design of those 1970s Swans is wrong wrong wrong for sailing, but they are very tasty to look at.  So I approve of other people sailing them)

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Another suggestion:  Sweden Yachts 370.  https://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?man=Sweden+Yachts+370

Gorgeous Peter Norlin design, superb Swedish build quality.  The only downside is that they are well out of your budget, but you could sell a few family members to raise the extra cash.

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12 hours ago, Panoramix said:

I think that a Hanse 370 would be right for you although toward the upper range of your price bracket. It is super easy to handle, relatively fast comfy inside and goes well to weather.

There's a lot to like about the 370. But the sinking of Megawat left me unimpressed by Hanse's standards. See report at https://www.mcib.ie/_fileupload/Documents/reports/Megawat_11_06.pdf

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2 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

There's a lot to like about the 370. But the sinking of Megawat left me unimpressed by Hanse's standards. See report at https://www.mcib.ie/_fileupload/Documents/reports/Megawat_11_06.pdf

This incident seems to be one of build variety, so far as I know, no yacht in this size range has watertight bulkheads, as this report calls for. Cause of incident was a undersized bilge pump and rough seas. 

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13 minutes ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

This incident seems to be one of build variety, so far as I know, no yacht in this size range has watertight bulkheads, as this report calls for. Cause of incident was a undersized bilge pump and rough seas. 

No bilge pump on a yacht can cope with hundreds of gallons per minute, so that's a red herring.  The seas were not spectacularly rough, so that's a red herring too.

The significantly smaller Pogo 30 has coffer dams for the rudder stocks, so it's doable.

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11 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Another leftfield suggestion: Swan 38. Here one within  budget: https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1974/nautor-swan-38-3621535/

Teak deck needs replacing, so you'll have either a load of work or a huge yard bill.  But if you like S&S classic Swans, they are within reach.  

(Personally, I think that design of those 1970s Swans is wrong wrong wrong for sailing, but they are very tasty to look at.  So I approve of other people sailing them)

I can't imagine that a Perini Navi would be more expensive to keep up than an under-maintained 1970s Swan.

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

There's a lot to like about the 370. But the sinking of Megawat left me unimpressed by Hanse's standards. See report at https://www.mcib.ie/_fileupload/Documents/reports/Megawat_11_06.pdf

I wasn't aware of this, you scared me as I regularly sail a Hanse 370. Nevertheless after reading the report, it seems that it is the retrofitted autopilot arm which is the culprit, that makes me feel (a bit) better. The people who wrote the report don't seem to understand a lot about structural engineering. They concentrate on the material side of things whereas the stock calcs were not in line with the actual physical setup of the boat!

I agree with you on watertight bulkheads ahead of the rudder stock, sadly very few boats have them!

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11 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

I wasn't aware of this, you scared me as I regularly sail a Hanse 370. Nevertheless after reading the report, it seems that it is the retrofitted autopilot arm which is the culprit, that makes me feel (a bit) better. The people who wrote the report don't seem to understand a lot about structural engineering. They concentrate on the material side of things whereas the stock calcs were not in line with the actual physical setup of the boat!

I agree with you on watertight bulkheads ahead of the rudder stock, sadly very few boats have them!

Hanse 370e looks like a really nice boat. None for sale near me right now, but it is very high on the list right now. I would only be sailing in the LI sound and lower Hudson River so offshore capability is not a concern (although I may sail it to Fire Island or Newport RI at some point).

Something I am adding to my budget is 15k for an OceanVolt saildrive system and solar panels.

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13 minutes ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Hanse 370e looks like a really nice boat. None for sale near me right now, but it is very high on the list right now. I would only be sailing in the LI sound and lower Hudson River so offshore capability is not a concern (although I may sail it to Fire Island or Newport RI at some point).

Something I am adding to my budget is 15k for an OceanVolt saildrive system and solar panels.

The boat has been sailed in sub optimal offshore conditions, I can tell you that it is well behaved. As long as you maintain it well you can certainly do the odd offshore passage.

Not sure if you are writing it in jest but for the electric option, as much as I like the idea, retrofitting an electric engine on a newish boat is the surest way to exceed completely your budget!

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2 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

The boat has been sailed in sub optimal offshore conditions, I can tell you that it is well behaved. As long as you maintain it well you can certainly do the odd offshore passage.

Not sure if you are writing it in jest but for the electric option, as much as I like the idea, retrofitting an electric engine on a newish boat is the surest way to exceed completely your budget!

Maybe I will wait a year and while the boat is on the hard have the work done.

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23 hours ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Hello,

This topic is a follow up to a post in J boat anarchy regarding a J35 (one boat which I have since ruled out of my criteria for comfort reasons). I have a family of 6 who are all looking to get out on the water, but classically, only 2 of us are willing to bother to actually sail the boat, so looking for a shorthanded cruiser/racer in the 34-40 ft range for 50-75k  prefferably less than 25-30 years old. Boats I am currently considering are:

Jenneau SO37

Beneteau Oceanus 351

Hunter 36 (hate hunter products but still looking at this one)

Any suggestions are welcome and as this is a first large boat of this type (I owned a J92 a few years ago) and most of our family lacks sailing experience, we are looking for something easy, fun, and comfortable (hopefully fast-ish too).

You state that you want a cruiser/racer, then list three boats that are very much coastal cruisers / marina holiday homes. I think you need to clarify what you really want (both to yourself and the forum) if you want useful suggestions - just now you're getting suggestions that range from racers with a bit of accommodation through to yachts that can barely get out of their own way. 

Your annual maintenance budget also seems somewhat optimistic for a yacht of this size. Might get away with paying that little some years, but others are going to be way more expensive.

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19 hours ago, Alex W said:

I love my Express 37 for this kind of use.  It's 10 years old than what you want, but that was also true of the J/35 that you were excited about.  In your price range you can get a nice one.  Build quality is higher than the Beneteaus and other boats listed.  The interior has a much nicer buildout than a J/35 plus there is 6' standing height in the main cabin (J/35 is a couple of inches less).  I also find the cockpit more comfortable with sloping seat bottoms and backs.

It sails very well.  It's easy to handle doublehanded (even without autopilot) with a non-overlapping jib and asymmetric kite tacked to the bow.  

The main cabin is big and has plenty of space for 6 people to hang out or eat dinner (though the table is for 4).  The boat sleeps 4 comfortably with decent privacy, 6 if you are okay getting cozy.  I love the quarterberth layout because it can either be a huge double where you sleep athwartships with lots of headroom or two singles where you sleep in line with the hull (and store sails in between).

Express 34 and Olson 34 are very similar boats but harder to find.

Here is a nice one that a friend is selling in Vancouver, BC: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/express-37-3675497/

 

 

Check the stability curves for the express 37. I have first hand knowledge of one that suffered a nasty knockdown in a blow and it took the crew on the keel to get enough righting moment to get upright. 

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1 hour ago, Jackett said:

You state that you want a cruiser/racer, then list three boats that are very much coastal cruisers / marina holiday homes. I think you need to clarify what you really want (both to yourself and the forum) if you want useful suggestions - just now you're getting suggestions that range from racers with a bit of accommodation through to yachts that can barely get out of their own way. 

Your annual maintenance budget also seems somewhat optimistic for a yacht of this size. Might get away with paying that little some years, but others are going to be way more expensive.

I would like a viable cruiser/racer, however, my family wants a Yacht...looking for a boat that I can convince them to like.

My budget is significantly less than I can afford. Maximum, I can spend 20-25k/year on the boat (not including upgrades)

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2 hours ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

I would like a viable cruiser/racer, however, my family wants a Yacht...looking for a boat that I can convince them to like.

That's an old dilemma.  Sounds like most of your family wants a marina caravan / swim platform, while you a re pat f the minority who want a boat that's fun to sail.

Unfortunately, those two requirements point in opposite directions.  You will probably find that you meet the goals better, and at much less cost, by having two boats:  a floating caravan for the family, and a real sailing boat for the minority who actually like sailing.  An old J/22 will give 2 or 3 people lots of sailing fun for little money, and avoid the huge bills of keeping a 35-40 footer fed with decent newish sails. Heck, you could probably buy a competitive J/22 with full sail wardrobe for the price of a new genoa on a 40-footer.

(The J/22 is just an example. There are plenty of other keelboats of that size which provide fun and good racing)

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

I wasn't aware of this, you scared me as I regularly sail a Hanse 370. Nevertheless after reading the report, it seems that it is the retrofitted autopilot arm which is the culprit, that makes me feel (a bit) better. The people who wrote the report don't seem to understand a lot about structural engineering. They concentrate on the material side of things whereas the stock calcs were not in line with the actual physical setup of the boat!

I agree with you on watertight bulkheads ahead of the rudder stock, sadly very few boats have them!

Pano, they do identify there was a problem with the setup of the aftermarket autopilot.  But they were displeased both that a) the large builder company had chosen not to warn owners "don't fit yer autopilot like that"; b) the owner had chosen not to get the boat re-certified after the modification.  Bit of a clown show all round, which is a pity cos I like the owner (who at the time was also a Hanse agent).  Nobody's finest hour.

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5 hours ago, ChrisJD said:

I can't imagine that a Perini Navi would be more expensive to keep up than an under-maintained 1970s Swan.

You might be right.

But I do want to encourage the OP to maintain eye-candy for the rest of us.  Sort of a public service thing. And a tastily-maintained S&S Swan is very pretty thing.

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17 hours ago, dew said:

Take a look at a Catalina 34, most seems to be shoal draft wing keel.  There are deep draft that may put it n more of a race boat mode.  Nice interior, huge head as most Catalina she a wide girl. The wing may get you in some places you would not go.  Catalina brings a company still in business, a great owners community.  The open transom begins in 90's is in your price range.  Will treat you better than a similar Hunter.

I have one here waiting to be bought. Price reduced to $29,000

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3 hours ago, Borax Johnson said:

Check the stability curves for the express 37. I have first hand knowledge of one that suffered a nasty knockdown in a blow and it took the crew on the keel to get enough righting moment to get upright. 

Can you share the firsthand story?  

The boat has a heavier keel that similar boats, so I'm a little surprised.  For example B/D is 47% on the Express 37 vs 42% on the J/35, 36% on J/109 and C&C 115.  I know that B/D isn't the same as stability index...

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We all have personal preferences, obviously, but if they were my dollars and I was looking to have fun with a quickish boat that was comfortable for the family, I'd go a bit older and pick up a well-kept Cal 39 and spend the difference on upgrades to get the boat just the way you want it.  Again, I think the Beneteau Firsts are great boats, but Oceanises, Sun Odysseys, Hunters and the like have never been known for aging well, and certainly not for their sailing characteristics.

One not too far from you: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982/cal-mk-iii-3575811/

Background: https://www.boats.com/reviews/offshore-dreaming/

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Pano, they do identify there was a problem with the setup of the aftermarket autopilot.  But they were displeased both that a) the large builder company had chosen not to warn owners "don't fit yer autopilot like that"; b) the owner had chosen not to get the boat re-certified after the modification.  Bit of a clown show all round, which is a pity cos I like the owner (who at the time was also a Hanse agent).  Nobody's finest hour.

Yes, but have a look page 44 at the skipper/owner letter. In their reply the MICB ignore the point by the owner that the autopilot was adding extra stress to the rudder stock. They give a copy of the ABS design guide saying this is a well accepted design method but when you look at the document (bending moment figure 9.1), it is clear that it doesn't cater for a force applied between the 2 bearings.

I still find it scary as this is a mistake easily made IMHO.

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12 minutes ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Seems as thought the sailing gods presented this 2005 Beneteau First 36.7 to me on Facebook...

110222850_3396574830374319_1243044765881355459_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=UgZyh6hlYa0AX88UfF7&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&_nc_tp=6&oh=1487bf711ad6243fa290c60e52edc3c0&oe=5F3E909C

Those are super boats. Fun to sail, surprisingly comfy for as quick as they are... or vice versa, depending on priority....

I dunno where you're gonna find room for 8 people though. Generally true of any 37~ 38 ish ft boat.

My pick would be the Express 37 but they're rare on the East Coast

FB- Doug

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11 hours ago, Upp3 said:

"Displacement: 5959 Kg (approx.)" I wonder what the accurate displacement would be if that is their approximation.

Somebody missed school the day they covered rounding off numbers.

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Depending on a lot of factors I wouldn’t be afraid of an older boat. A 40 year old boat owned by a super conscientious owner or two might be on the tail end of a second or third refit, have a ton of essential extras that cost$$ retail, and give you pretty good value.

Https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1981/tartan-37-cb-3683477/

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1979/tartan-37-3649621/

 

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11 hours ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Seems as thought the sailing gods presented this 2005 Beneteau First 36.7 to me on Facebook...

Even better, the gods presented you one with the keel still attached.

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16 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

the owner (who at the time was also a Hanse agent)

A fairly important conflict of interest that I don't think was disclosed in the report and certainly colours my reading of the owner's preference to dump all the blame on the autopilot installer.

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40 minutes ago, bgytr said:

J 120 has my vote

Find me a J120 for 75k and I would agree...

175k doesn't count

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52 minutes ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Find me a J120 for 75k and I would agree...

175k doesn't count

Check on yachtworld.  There's a couple of em for <100k and I'm betting there's quite a bit of flexibility in price moving sailboats right now.

Really one of the very best 40 footers ever.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats-for-sale/make-j-boats/model-j-120/

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You may be able to get the one in Manaroneck for $75k but you will likely need to put $20k back into it right away.  I considered that boat before I bought mine but decided the one I got was a better move.  Anyway you slice it, a decent boat in decent shape and reasonably updated is going to be around $110k.  Better boats are $120-130k and the best ones are around $145-150k.  You can buy a cheaper one and put money into it or get one in better shape, but the bottom line is going to near the same.  I bought a cheaper boat and am halfway through a $50k refit.  

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48 minutes ago, bgytr said:
1 hour ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Find me a J120 for 75k and I would agree...

175k doesn't count

Check on yachtworld.  There's a couple of em for <100k and I'm betting there's quite a bit of flexibility in price moving sailboats right now.

Really one of the very best 40 footers ever.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats-for-sale/make-j-boats/model-j-120/

The J/120 is a lovely design.  But they are getting old now, having been built from 1994 to 2006.

How is the balsa core holding up at that age?

There were pics recently on the first J/105 being cut up for scrap, because its core was waterlogged.  The J/105 was launched in 1991,  so that's only 3 years older than the first J/120.

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22 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

The J/120 is a lovely design.  But they are getting old now, having been built from 1994 to 2006.

How is the balsa core holding up at that age?

There were pics recently on the first J/105 being cut up for scrap, because its core was waterlogged.  The J/105 was launched in 1991,  so that's only 3 years older than the first J/120.

A good survey will disclose any core issues.  Given the criteria of the OP,  it's pretty much a certainty that he will be looking at boats that are of that vintage or older, so the same potential issues will be there regardless- unless the hull is metal (which has it's own longevity issues) or solid FRP.  Depending on the extent of core damage if present, it doesn't need to be a show stopper.  I'll be fixing some core in my boat this off-season.

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The scrimp jboats are better about core issues.  You can still get them if the core isn’t isolated but won’t be as prevalent as the non scrimp boats.  Early 105s are non scrimp and could have more issues than the later boats.  Good survey will reveal that

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7 hours ago, T sailor said:

You may be able to get the one in Manaroneck for $75k but you will likely need to put $20k back into it right away.  I considered that boat before I bought mine but decided the one I got was a better move.  Anyway you slice it, a decent boat in decent shape and reasonably updated is going to be around $110k.  Better boats are $120-130k and the best ones are around $145-150k.  You can buy a cheaper one and put money into it or get one in better shape, but the bottom line is going to near the same.  I bought a cheaper boat and am halfway through a $50k refit.  

"The J/120 has become a standout in the brokerage market for performance cruiser-racers. The J offers a great combination of speed, comfort and ease of handling.

Nice clean, late model J/120 and loads of interior trim options.

Equipment includes:  Hall carbon rig, , B&G instruments with below deck auto pilot, SSB radio, Life raft,  dodger, cockpit cushions & table, refrigeration, diesel heating system and Awlgrip topsides." - $89,900 Price Reduced https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1998/j-boats-j-120-3506055/

If you think I can get them to reduce the price 15k, sure thing...

I owned a J92 that I bought for 50k in 2010 (when they where still fairly expensive) and had to put 25k into making it race ready...

I can only imagine what this 120 would be like...

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6 hours ago, bgytr said:

Given the criteria of the OP,  it's pretty much a certainty that he will be looking at boats that are of that vintage or older

I see myself buying a 1995-2005 boat and keeping it for 4-5 years and (depending on what the family thinks) upgrading to something around 150-175k in price...this of course depends on use case.

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23 hours ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Seems as thought the sailing gods presented this 2005 Beneteau First 36.7 to me on Facebook...

110222850_3396574830374319_1243044765881355459_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=UgZyh6hlYa0AX88UfF7&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&_nc_tp=6&oh=1487bf711ad6243fa290c60e52edc3c0&oe=5F3E909C

I would also support that the Beneteau Firsts are going to tick most of your boxes.

Well built, well supported, market value is pretty clear, and they sail really well.  Interiors will meet the needs of most families.

Full disclosure, we have one.  This is our 4th keel boat.  Hands down, this is the easiest boat to maintain.  Access to all key systems is well thought-out.  Brand name systems, so spare parts are readily available.  No delamination issues.  No blisters.  Not much to complain about - and did I mention it sails really well?

As pointed out, at this size, sleeping 8 people is challenging.  6 is doable in some comfort.

 

 

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2 hours ago, jacrider said:

I would also support that the Beneteau Firsts are going to tick most of your boxes.

Well built, well supported, market value is pretty clear, and they sail really well.  Interiors will meet the needs of most families.

Full disclosure, we have one.  This is our 4th keel boat.  Hands down, this is the easiest boat to maintain.  Access to all key systems is well thought-out.  Brand name systems, so spare parts are readily available.  No delamination issues.  No blisters.  Not much to complain about - and did I mention it sails really well?

As pointed out, at this size, sleeping 8 people is challenging.  6 is doable in some comfort.

 

 

I would not expect to sleep 8, only daysail with them on board.

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10 hours ago, jacrider said:

As pointed out, at this size, sleeping 8 people is challenging.  6 is doable in some comfort.

So long as 6 of the 8 are happy to share a double berth, it's doable on a boat of that size with two aft cabins. 

If you don't have two aft cabins, it's not a big job to install a pair of canvas pilot berths in the saloon.  The English Rival yachts all had them as standard.

7 hours ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

I would not expect to sleep 8, only daysail with them on board.

Any boat in that size range will do that, so long as half of them are rail meat.  8 is a ballpark normal racing crew for a boat that size, so there's no problem having that many people on the rail.

But no cruiser or cruiser-racer of that size will have 8 windward seats in the cockpit.  Many won't even seat 8 while at anchor.

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

So long as 6 of the 8 are happy to share a double berth, it's doable on a boat of that size with two aft cabins. 

If you don't have two aft cabins, it's not a big job to install a pair of canvas pilot berths in the saloon.  The English Rival yachts all had them as standard.

Any boat in that size range will do that, so long as half of them are rail meat.  8 is a ballpark normal racing crew for a boat that size, so there's no problem having that many people on the rail.

But no cruiser or cruiser-racer of that size will have 8 windward seats in the cockpit.  Many won't even seat 8 while at anchor.

Some of the Beneteau Boats have forward sun pads that could seat the extra 2 people.

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On 7/21/2020 at 4:45 PM, ChrisJD said:

We all have personal preferences, obviously, but if they were my dollars and I was looking to have fun with a quickish boat that was comfortable for the family, I'd go a bit older and pick up a well-kept Cal 39 and spend the difference on upgrades to get the boat just the way you want it.  Again, I think the Beneteau Firsts are great boats, but Oceanises, Sun Odysseys, Hunters and the like have never been known for aging well, and certainly not for their sailing characteristics.

One not too far from you: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982/cal-mk-iii-3575811/

Background: https://www.boats.com/reviews/offshore-dreaming/

Man that Cal looks great.

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1 hour ago, Slim said:

Man that Cal looks great.

I know, right?  One of the curses of having spent $X on a boat is the perpetual second-guessing of "Hey, there's a great-looking boat that cost so much less than $X, why didn't I buy that instead?"  I'm pretty sure this is constant notwithstanding X.

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On 7/21/2020 at 4:45 PM, ChrisJD said:

We all have personal preferences, obviously, but if they were my dollars and I was looking to have fun with a quickish boat that was comfortable for the family, I'd go a bit older and pick up a well-kept Cal 39 and spend the difference on upgrades to get the boat just the way you want it.  Again, I think the Beneteau Firsts are great boats, but Oceanises, Sun Odysseys, Hunters and the like have never been known for aging well, and certainly not for their sailing characteristics.

One not too far from you: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982/cal-mk-iii-3575811/

Background: https://www.boats.com/reviews/offshore-dreaming/

Really? :D

1896398651_ScreenShot2020-07-23at4_16_33PM.thumb.png.808b1eb6d543613273234328098ae918.png

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3 hours ago, ChrisJD said:

One of the curses of having spent $X on a boat is the perpetual second-guessing of "Hey, there's a great-looking boat that cost so much less than $X, why didn't I buy that instead?"  I'm pretty sure this is constant notwithstanding X.

This could be a very good topic. I spent more on renovating my H-Boat that I thought I would, probably 1.5 to 2.0X. Eventually, I got what I wanted. I often see older boats for sale 0n Yachtworld for about what I spent, that represent way more boat than mine. It bothers me at first, but then I think about what I would have had to spend on it.

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

This could be a very good topic. I spent more on renovating my H-Boat that I thought I would, probably 1.5 to 2.0X. Eventually, I got what I wanted. I often see older boats for sale 0n Yachtworld for about what I spent, that represent way more boat than mine. It bothers me at first, but then I think about what I would have had to spend on it.

Agreed.

Having been in this spot many times I am prepared to pay for what I get.

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I've spent some time on one about 15 years ago.  From what I recall, it is not very weatherly, and we did have an incident where we got turned sideways in a fairway and boat had some much windage and such a shallow keel, we could not get her to turn.  That left a pretty sour taste in my mouth as I had never been on a boat that got stuck like that.  

It is pretty nice and comfy down below, especially for a 36'er.  That is probably the best part about that boat.  I value performance quite a bit and would never compromise that much for interior space.  You might be able to get a Tartan 3500 in your budget.  not as much space below, but a much better sailing boat.  try to find one that is pre-epoxy.  

I still think a 36.7 is really tough to beat for what you want.  My only gripe with them is the dark interior wood.  other than that, nothing else will come close to the sailing performance and still have an accomodations plan that suits your family.  

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15 hours ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

There is a Hunter 36 for sale an hour from me for well within my budget...

Thoughts?

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2007/hunter-36-3469790/

I don't want to be rude, but I struggle to find a gentle way to say that my main thought is that you should make up your mind what sort of boat you actually want.

If you want a cruiser-racer, why is a Hunter with a furling main even worth thinking about?

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16 hours ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

There is a Hunter 36 for sale an hour from me for well within my budget...

Thoughts?

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2007/hunter-36-3469790/

Man, if you used to have a J/92 you are going to be really blindsided by how much less fun a Hunter (or cruisy Catalina, Beneteau non-First, etc) is to sail by comparison. You’ve gotten lots of good suggestions in this thread that don’t go down the route of party barges. 

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7 hours ago, T sailor said:

I've spent some time on one about 15 years ago.  From what I recall, it is not very weatherly, and we did have an incident where we got turned sideways in a fairway and boat had some much windage and such a shallow keel, we could not get her to turn.  That left a pretty sour taste in my mouth as I had never been on a boat that got stuck like that.

Same exact thing happened to us in a shallow-draft Hunter 33 about five years ago: narrow channel, gust picked up unexpectedly, weather helm pointed us directly towards the rocks, released the main sheet but the main got pinned against the swept shrouds, and we couldn’t get her to turn for a good 30 seconds or so until we actually furled the main about halfway.  It was legitimately terrifying.

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3 hours ago, Alaris said:

Man, if you used to have a J/92 you are going to be really blindsided by how much less fun a Hunter (or cruisy Catalina, Beneteau non-First, etc) is to sail by comparison. You’ve gotten lots of good suggestions in this thread that don’t go down the route of party barges. 

I don't see the problem. I heard the Hunter 36 even comes with its own tender and hot slave girls.  Perfect for a raft-up at the Sarlacc Pit for drinks and canapes.

 

 

the-khetanna_d1d5b294.jpeg

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4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I don't want to be rude, but I struggle to find a gentle way to say that my main thought is that you should make up your mind what sort of boat you actually want.

If you want a cruiser-racer, why is a Hunter with a furling main even worth thinking about?

Don't worry, the H36 was my wife's suggestion. I still think that the Beneteau First 36.7 is my best option (closely followed by a Hanse 375/345) but I was just trying to open my mind to things that my uninterested in sailing family would like. If I got my way I would still own the J/92...

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50 minutes ago, silversailor said:

Look at a Hanse 370 or 400. The 370 is lighter and faster than the 375 and well made. Send me a PM if you are serious about a Hanse.

I assume you have one for sale?

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10 hours ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Don't worry, the H36 was my wife's suggestion. I still think that the Beneteau First 36.7 is my best option (closely followed by a Hanse 375/345) but I was just trying to open my mind to things that my uninterested in sailing family would like. If I got my way I would still own the J/92...

It seems to me that the "uninterested in sailing family" is the problem with this plan. You are trying to split the difference between two radically different goals, and I can't see how this can work out well.

If you buy a boat with some real sailing ability, then either your non-sailing family gets fed up with you sailing it hard, or you get fed up with having a real sailing boat that only gets used like a picnic/caravan boat.

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A dire assessment.  I'm betting he can strike a balance that will mostly satisfy everyone.  Mostly being the operative word. 

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On 7/21/2020 at 12:44 PM, TwoLegged said:

There's a lot to like about the 370. But the sinking of Megawat left me unimpressed by Hanse's standards. See report at https://www.mcib.ie/_fileupload/Documents/reports/Megawat_11_06.pdf

 

On 7/21/2020 at 8:12 PM, TwoLegged said:

Pano, they do identify there was a problem with the setup of the aftermarket autopilot.  But they were displeased both that a) the large builder company had chosen not to warn owners "don't fit yer autopilot like that"; b) the owner had chosen not to get the boat re-certified after the modification.  Bit of a clown show all round, which is a pity cos I like the owner (who at the time was also a Hanse agent).  Nobody's finest hour.

The ironies abound. He had also previously been a life raft service agent. 3 of the named individuals involved were on the same boat in the ‘79 Fastnet.

(Disclosure: I too like him.)

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8 minutes ago, Ajax said:

A dire assessment.  I'm betting he can strike a balance that will mostly satisfy everyone.  Mostly being the operative word. 

“All of the people some of the time” is the compromise here

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21 minutes ago, Black Sox said:

“All of the people some of the time” is the compromise here

Yes, that's one possible outcome.  But it's also possible that it leads to nobody ever getting close enough to what they actually want.  Sometimes one size doesn't fit all.

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TL may be spot on here.  This could work out or it likely could be an exercise in everyone being frustrated and PO'd...  Might need to go the route of the guy in SoCal, who was in a similar conundrum (he just sold a First 405) and ended up getting a trawler.  Obviously he was more willing to compromise in the effort to get everyone out on the boat together.  

How about a Grand Banks 36 and maybe a UFO on deck?  

 

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

It seems to me that the "uninterested in sailing family" is the problem with this plan. You are trying to split the difference between two radically different goals, and I can't see how this can work out well.

If you buy a boat with some real sailing ability, then either your non-sailing family gets fed up with you sailing it hard, or you get fed up with having a real sailing boat that only gets used like a picnic/caravan boat.

I still think a First 36.7 will do the job. I like the idea of a Hanse 370 or a J120, but they both seem to be over my budget.

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At the end a cruiser or cruiser racer that sails well isn't too much of a compromise from the perspective of a passenger who just wants a caravan boat. Sure there might be a traveller in the cockpit, more draft, some missing cup holders and a bit less space inside but assuming that you sail the boat conservatively, they will soon forget. Even if they don't realise they may be better off as some caravan boats are actually quite hard to sail and the skipper will be more relaxed on board a boat that is easy to handle.

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That J120 is quite a tempting proposition, I just do not see it coming in under 75k with needed upgrades (of which, I assume, there are many)

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2 hours ago, Panoramix said:

At the end a cruiser or cruiser racer that sails well isn't too much of a compromise from the perspective of a passenger who just wants a caravan boat. Sure there might be a traveller in the cockpit, more draft, some missing cup holders and a bit less space inside but assuming that you sail the boat conservatively, they will soon forget. Even if they don't realise they may be better off as some caravan boats are actually quite hard to sail and the skipper will be more relaxed on board a boat that is easy to handle.

Bingo! Easier to sail... boats that are rigged with the idea that an active crew will work at sailing it to it's best, seems like a counter-intuitive principle to boats for a family BUT such boats are actually built and layed out and rigged (however you want to say it, the placement of blocks & winches etc etc) so that they are EASIER TO SAIL than most cruising boats, or mass-market cruiser-racers.

FB- Doug

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18 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Bingo! Easier to sail... boats that are rigged with the idea that an active crew will work at sailing it to it's best, seems like a counter-intuitive principle to boats for a family BUT such boats are actually built and layed out and rigged (however you want to say it, the placement of blocks & winches etc etc) so that they are EASIER TO SAIL than most cruising boats, or mass-market cruiser-racers.

FB- Doug

Yes + better appendages which means that the boat is much more likely to go where you want it to go whether under sail or under power!

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2 hours ago, Panoramix said:

At the end a cruiser or cruiser racer that sails well isn't too much of a compromise from the perspective of a passenger who just wants a caravan boat. Sure there might be a traveller in the cockpit, more draft, some missing cup holders and a bit less space inside but assuming that you sail the boat conservatively, they will soon forget. Even if they don't realise they may be better off as some caravan boats are actually quite hard to sail and the skipper will be more relaxed on board a boat that is easy to handle.

It's that sailing conservatively thing that would do my head in.

I have been there, many times.  A pedigree boat, well set-up ... but the non-sailor gets screamy-panicky if the boat heels more than 3 degrees, or climbs a wave more than two inches high, or manages a wee dose of speed downwind, or — heaven help us — a weensy droplet of soaking wet water sneaks in over the weather rail. 

So you reduce sail to the point where the boat is barely moving and the helm is as limp as overcooked spaghetti because the water is moving past the rudder slower than an injured snail on a rickety zimmer frame.  The screamer has mostly shut up, but your soul is shrivelling inside you so fast that you fear it will soon be shrunken to microscopic size, and then fall out of some pore ... and then you'll spend eternity inside some crevice of your own underwear being the butt of a Billy Connolly joke.  And you want to shout "so why the hell in the name of all the saints are you on a sailing boat if you don't like sailing", but you realise that it wouldn't solve anything and that the momentary release would be followed by decades of being labelled The Evil Mad Bitch Who Shouted At The Frightened Landlubber.

So you quietly say "feck this", and force a smile.  Then you drop sail and motor to port, with the screamer now happy while your brain plays a requiem mass as you silently mourn for the real sailing you have just missed.  Every thump of the diesel drives another stake through your broken heart.

And when you get to port you run or swim ashore ASAP to drown your sorrows in pint glasses ... and plan various painful forms of slow death for anyone who dares set foot on any sailing vessel but doesn't have extensive experience of enjoying capsizing and pitchpoling racing dinghies, and/or doesn't regard a hard beat into long seas as a deeper pleasure than a multiple orgasm.  While you pray to god that you get in so many drinks before kicking-out time that in the morning you will have forgotten everything.

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On 7/24/2020 at 10:12 PM, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

There is a Hunter 36 for sale an hour from me for well within my budget...

Thoughts?

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2007/hunter-36-3469790/

I'm a Hunter owner, so perhaps my opinion has some merit, but only a little. My boat is a 1989 H-28. That's the last generation of Hunters before they went all futuristic and archy. There are plenty of guys on SA who don't like Hunters. Some really know what they are talking about, and others are just race-oriented and interested in other things. Here are some of my opinions.

* The smaller Hunters are definitely not built for blue water. Some of the bigger ones have done OK crossing oceans. I don't know where the dividing line is.

* Hunter interiors tend to separate places to sit from places to sleep. The benches around the cabin table just never look to me like a place anyone could sleep.

* Cockpits seem to be designed with a long way to fall in a knockdown.

* Hunters are not as hard to work on or maintain as some other designs. In my boat, there is access to the engine from three sides.

* My boat is tender, and I've seen comments suggesting that some other models are too, but I don't know if they all are. 

* Some models are underpowered.

* I once read all the comments on all the Hunter models on a Hunter owners web site. For every model, there were complaints about holding tank odor that was fixed by going to a higher quality of hose. This sort of corner-cutting is apparent in other systems as well.

Browse for yourself here.

I once said about Hunters that they are a combination vacation cabin and daysailer.  That's good for a lot of people, but not so good for someone looking for a real cruiser.

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20 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Yes + better appendages which means that the boat is much more likely to go where you want it to go whether under sail or under power!

Maybe, maybe not. Rudders, for example. A cruising boat designer has no reason to skimp on rudder size, but a racing boat designer is going to eliminate a square foot of wetted surface if he thinks he can get away with it given an active crew to keep the boat in balance. 

On my boat, the sheet winches are withing easy reach of the helm, great for cruising and short handed sailing. Not so good for racing since the crewman sheeting the winch is likely to be facing aft with predictable results.

A lot depends on whether the boat is fitted with an autopilot of some kind. 

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