zks7

Flying Tiger halyard - where does it dead end on the masthead?

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We bought a used Tiger. Not much sailing due to the pandemic. Second sail out, the main halyard cover separated. We need to replace the halyard. Ours is a 2:1, using a Tylaska roller shackle. This will be my first time up the mast on this boat. We are purchasing a new 5/16 Warpspeed line, with a cover the entire length. Seven questions:

  1. Where does the bitter end attach to on most Tigers?
  2. Do you use chafe guard on the two ends? Or is that too difficult to get through the sheaves?
  3. Do I need a luggage tag on the end to go through a strap?
  4. Or is there a system for a stopper knot?
  5. How hard is it to use the kite(s) halyards with a bosun's chair?
  6. Run one halyard through one of the main winches?
  7. Use the other as a backup (in case of kite halyard failure)?

Need to know the options before going up the mast.

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Greater purchase causes greater friction and wear.

Just because the previous owner had a 2:1 halyard installed does not mean that it is either practical or necessary for such a relatively small and light weight mainsail.

 

 

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I thought about going to 2:1 for years with #71 and wound up never doing it.  Now, we don't have the same wind here that zks has in SFO, so the 2:1 may be a requirement there.  For us, we regularly sail in 5-15, once each summer up to 25-30.  Using 5/16" covered Warpspeed 1:1 had manageable stretch (after we got the creep out).

To zks' questions though: we never had a problem going up the mast on the spin halyard; if you're going with 2:1 I'd say yes, luggage tag the halyard at the top - on the mast crane - there should be a pin in there aft of the luff track, then run the halyard tail down the mast.  I never needed chafe guard, and I never stripped the cover off (as sexy as that is for weight savings, the $$ lost in reduced durability just wasn't worth it for our program).

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These are the best pics I could find. Not much, but it will give you an idea of what you'll find up there. We used either the main or the spi halyard, using the jib halyard as a backup. 2:1 in sf bay is a must to reduce the load on the clutches (that are already upgraded on your boat). 

 

 

 

1861650084_ScreenShot2014-09-02at1_05.53PM(2).png.c9fe3b46fa1ae98473ae4644e1792d8c.png660527664_ScreenShot2014-09-02at1_04.56PM(4).png.185cba4ec38aa4ec3d47209b5a670a7b.pngIMG_0614.JPG.6f2a81dcf697d873723b3c0e18507e69.JPG

20140514_125913.jpg

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Keep the 2:1. Here's what I did. It's just an eye splice in the warpspeed. Could have done a better job whipping. 

Capture.JPG

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Thanks to all of you for your information/opinions. We have a new Quantum reduced area mainsail with a flattener, and two reefs. The plan is to keep the 2:1 for San Francisco bay. Our core was already stripped. The cover was on the end that would be inside the mast (no weight saving in the mast). The stripped core was at the bitter end. The core itself is in really good shape. The load bearing end of the line was covered. The cost of replacing Warpspeed 5/16 is going to be 2-5 times the cost of putting a new cover on the load bearing section. We are going to measure the sections that will be under load in the reefs, and extend the cover through out hose areas. We expect it to be somewhere between 70-100 feet of cover - after we measure it. The plan is not to have an additional wear cover over the masthead end. Let you know how it turns out. Hope to have it completed by next weekend.

 

We are sailing this weekend with a number 4 jib (after sailing the prior weekend with a number 3). We will put a reef or two in. The summer winds (so far) here on the central bay weekends have been 18+ steady usually gusting into the 20's. We will find out how far the reduced load needs to be to keep her feet.

 

Again thanks,

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When you are up inspect the 6 rivets of the tang where the top of the forestay is attached. There's a lot of load there, especially on the upper 2s. 

 

 

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Question answered but I thought this worth sharing. We've used 2:1 since launching the boat in 2007.  Easier hoist, easier to keep right tension on main luff... and the bitter end ties around that pin you can see in the mast crane.  Usually we go up on the main halyard and use the spinnaker halyard as a safety and to take the weight whilst attaching the new main halyard (buntline as it slides up/in).  Although last time (for some reason?) we used the jib halyard as the and took it up over the crane (and tightened) to take the weight whilst changing/attaching the main halyard. And I'm sure you'll notice the small change to the spin exit block. We were going through halyards (too much flogging through inexperience?) so that sorted it. We also reinforced the jib exit as the top pop rivet was being pulled out of the mast. No issues since.  Fyi... 

    

Mast Head Halyard Exit Block.jpg

Jib Exit Bolting.jpg

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Great pictures form you all. Thanks for the suggestions. Where did you get the spinnaker exit block appliance made? I do not see the 6 rivets on the jib tang. Did you remove two?? I only see 4 (in black matte finish). To make the changes I assume (by the picture) that the mast was dropped. Do you use a hoist to do that? Or is there some way to use a gin pole?

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We made the exit block 'appliance' in our work shop (engineering biz). You should see the rudder bracket (cassette replacement) we made...  The 6 rivets are there. You can see one clearly, another hidden under the kite halyard and the other out of shot.  These pics were taken when the mast was out for repainting/coating. The yard had a crane.     

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Thank you for the information. That is a nice bit of construction. We are looking at our kite halyard fitting today.

 

Our rudder is an interesting story: The original SF Bay owner (I am the recent third) anted another (not the original) rudder. He replaced it with the upgraded rudder. I still have the original (now a spare) rudder. However, the pin failed in the SF conditions. The owner sent it back and had it upgraded (larger pin and larger G10).

 

Has anyone with the replacement had any wear on the G10 diameter (wobble under load) pintle and gudgeon interface?

 

If so, what was your remedy. The manufacturers do not have an easy fix or a price. They want to charge shipping, then time and labor. For that, there are several local folks who could do such a. job. A this point ,it is more of a preventative question. We were frequently messing with this wear issue on the Melges 24, until we turned a Titanium shaft (after bronze, and stainless steel) efforts.

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funny, if I remember well your mast has a similar mod on the spi exit for the same reason. Not the whole struct at the bottom, but two rods welded to the sides of the sheave to prevent chafe. I think it worked because I forgot about it after we did it many years ago...

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Yes we noticed the bars on both sides of the kite sheave when we went up yesterday. Could not understand why the forum concern about kite halyard mast head wear. The kite halyard, at least at this point, does not look like a serious wear issue. But then, we are only doing bay races, no long distance stuff yet (not doing anything other than "get acquainted" sails with reduced sail area so far). There is an "extra" kite sheave on the mast top ring. It doubles as a fractional kite halyard.

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3 hours ago, zks7 said:

Yes we noticed the bars on both sides of the kite sheave when we went up yesterday. Could not understand why the forum concern about kite halyard mast head wear. The kite halyard, at least at this point, does not look like a serious wear issue. But then, we are only doing bay races, no long distance stuff yet (not doing anything other than "get acquainted" sails with reduced sail area so far). There is an "extra" kite sheave on the mast top ring. It doubles as a fractional kite halyard.

Right, the bars solved the wear issues for the spi halyard. 

The second external spi sheave was rigged with a cheap halyard, as safety and for the few coastal races we did. It saved the day at least once when we "sky-ed" the inner spi halyard... :-) 

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I have not checked the condition of the "cheap" backup kite halyard. 

 

Regarding the fractional kite halyard: Can you use it for the "new" jib halyard when doing an inside jib switch on the tuff luff?

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2 hours ago, zks7 said:

Regarding the fractional kite halyard: Can you use it for the "new" jib halyard when doing an inside jib switch on the tuff luff?

Yes we do exactly that on a regular basis.

Just make sure your bowman passes the fractional halyard around outside the forestay if he needs to change sides with the halyard. This is because the halyard sheave is above the forestay hounds on the mast.

RTT

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Thanks, I had a tough time getting the crew to understand that! We got it right - but it was interesting! 

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On 7/31/2020 at 12:43 PM, zks7 said:

Yes we noticed the bars on both sides of the kite sheave when we went up yesterday. Could not understand why the forum concern about kite halyard mast head wear. The kite halyard, at least at this point, does not look like a serious wear issue. But then, we are only doing bay races, no long distance stuff yet (not doing anything other than "get acquainted" sails with reduced sail area so far). There is an "extra" kite sheave on the mast top ring. It doubles as a fractional kite halyard.

The bars and faceplate can get can get distorted and create sharp edges, especially if the halyard is two blocked in heavy air or you have overly aggressive pit. I think the sheave is the same used on the Farr 30 and Harkin made a heavy duty version of the faceplate for the Farr 30, but I was never able to source one.

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Going to the boat today to inspect the "cheap backup" kite halyard.

 

Thanks for the warning. Upon inspection of the bars on the halyard sheave this weekend, there was no distortion (yet). This is after quite a few years of use. The former owners might have been lucky or careful.

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On 7/31/2020 at 2:32 AM, zks7 said:

Thank you for the information. That is a nice bit of construction. We are looking at our kite halyard fitting today.

 

Our rudder is an interesting story: The original SF Bay owner (I am the recent third) anted another (not the original) rudder. He replaced it with the upgraded rudder. I still have the original (now a spare) rudder. However, the pin failed in the SF conditions. The owner sent it back and had it upgraded (larger pin and larger G10).

 

Has anyone with the replacement had any wear on the G10 diameter (wobble under load) pintle and gudgeon interface?

 

If so, what was your remedy. The manufacturers do not have an easy fix or a price. They want to charge shipping, then time and labor. For that, there are several local folks who could do such a. job. A this point ,it is more of a preventative question. We were frequently messing with this wear issue on the Melges 24, until we turned a Titanium shaft (after bronze, and stainless steel) efforts.

We've had two original rudder cassettes and in both the tube the pin runs through broke half way down. This resulted in the pin scoring and, it snapped on us. We had upgraded the pin to Alloy 20 which seemed to hold on but the cassette was deteriorating and chasing slop was tedious. Had to go. Never liked it as the leading edge of the rudder is some distance behind the rotation point and that contributes to the rudder blowing out (ventilating) when an unannounced puff arrives (especially on a reach, with the bag up). The Betts replacement solves that problem but there was one other issue that bugged me... the stern is angled but the top and bottom pintles that form part of the stern bracket are the same length. So the rudder does not stay aligned with the water flow when off center. And the two small bearings (12mm?) are prone to wear.

With our workshop quiet during lockdown... we had a play  Probably not recommended for the home handyman, note.  

That's the original rudder with the top cut off. Seems to work really well! Hangs on and seems to have added a bit of pace. Or more correctly, loses less pace during manoeuvres ...              

Rudder Trial 10.jpg

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Really nice workmanship. An even better thought process. I never even considered what you are describing. Yes, the alignment is just as you laid out and it is only a problem when you turn it (that is pretty funny). Your solution is very elegant. Getting the pin line up meant you did the measuring out of the water? Did you end up raising the waterline level of the rudder? Where is he wear coming? Did you use a bronze pin - as a sacrificial so the pintles would wear less?  Is there a chance you could produce the hardware again? Do you have the measurements and ability to duplicate it?

 

That is a lot of metal. I assume you picked up some weight over the carbon solution. Is it "overbuilt" (maybe?) it to keep from breakage in serious winds? 

 

Thanks for sharing it.

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17 hours ago, zks7 said:

Really nice workmanship. An even better thought process. I never even considered what you are describing. Yes, the alignment is just as you laid out and it is only a problem when you turn it (that is pretty funny). Your solution is very elegant. Getting the pin line up meant you did the measuring out of the water? Did you end up raising the waterline level of the rudder? Where is he wear coming? Did you use a bronze pin - as a sacrificial so the pintles would wear less?  Is there a chance you could produce the hardware again? Do you have the measurements and ability to duplicate it?

 

That is a lot of metal. I assume you picked up some weight over the carbon solution. Is it "overbuilt" (maybe?) it to keep from breakage in serious winds? 

 

Thanks for sharing it.

For rudder alignment, we laid out the old cassette and rudder in the shop and then made the new bracketry to duplicate the same (similar...) angle and blade area in front of rotation line, but without the stern angle. You'll note we cut a little out of the front of the rudder to move forward but that's where the reinforcing is, so not as much of a cut as the Betts (or we'd have liked). There is a bit more weather helm. There was very little before so that's not a problem. Rudder is at the same level... same depth.  

In the old bracket/pintles, we used bronze bushes. Pain in the butt unbolting it to change them every couple of years. Note the new bracket has 4 pintles with bearings in between.  Bit over engineered... but should last.  In fact the whole thing is well over engineered.  Could have gone with a lot less metal. Titanium would have been nice... Still, weighing everything before and after, surprisingly, the new set up is 3kg less (than original).

I think I'd be looking for new workshop guys if I suggested we do it again... I'd hate to cost it up. What I'd probably do (in another life) is to fabricate the same/similar stern bracket (to take out stern angle) and have a carbon rudder made to fit.           

     

 

    

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Thanks, Your craftsmanship and concern is admirable. is your concern about the ventilating and detachment (as the boat heels) reasonable? Or is the rudder going to lose authority as the speed builds up in any case (after it exceeds laminar flow) and heels? Is it a speed issue or a heel determinant?

 

Not sure if this is an exercise for Covid 19 days, rather than practicality? We are so new to the FT10 boat that we have not had a chance to witness the rudder issues you speak of.  However the intellectual pursuit side is really interesting.

 

We have more experience in a Martin 243 and Flying Dutchman than the FT10.  When those boats heel there is a multitude of issues that can only be remedied by keeping the boat flat at all times.

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On 8/3/2020 at 10:42 AM, saboteer said:

Harkens Face plate with guards.

https://www.harken.com/productdetail.aspx?id=5112&taxid=414

The 310 thru deck is what is used on the M32 for mast head shives.  They make is custom though with a fully welded box.

https://www.harken.com/productdetail.aspx?id=8585&taxid=414

The HCP 1201 was the heavy duty version APS used to carry.image.png.e41dcfb0e575e9cec265199326b29715.png

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On 8/6/2020 at 8:54 AM, zks7 said:

Thanks, Your craftsmanship and concern is admirable. is your concern about the ventilating and detachment (as the boat heels) reasonable? Or is the rudder going to lose authority as the speed builds up in any case (after it exceeds laminar flow) and heels? Is it a speed issue or a heel determinant?

 

Not sure if this is an exercise for Covid 19 days, rather than practicality? We are so new to the FT10 boat that we have not had a chance to witness the rudder issues you speak of.  However the intellectual pursuit side is really interesting.

 

We have more experience in a Martin 243 and Flying Dutchman than the FT10.  When those boats heel there is a multitude of issues that can only be remedied by keeping the boat flat at all times.

Keeping the Tiger flat, especially under kite, is highly recommended. As is having a hand on the vang for when it isn't. No real problem with the rudder as speed builds. Once on the plane, the Tiger is very stable.  The first issue as the boat heels is, the reduction of rudder blade in the water (see below). It loses bite and you loses the ability to get the boat to respond to tugging the tiller. Instinct is to give it a more robust tug, and it ventilates.  Boat falls over. Given the 'design' with the blade not being perpendicular to the water flow when off centre  (as previously discussed), it encourages ventilation. Up until recently, this was all a bit academic. However,  following our 'Covid Project' early indications are the new arrangement hangs on beyond the point the original would blow out. A very tight reach under our largest kite (it is... quite large) last weekend surprised us how she hung on.               

FT10 Heel.jpg

Balmain Tiger - Big Grey.jpg

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