Marcjsmith

BENE slow first 235

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Still contemplating the jump into human sized boats.

noticed at the local marina a first 235  fin keel. that has been sitting out of the water rig down for what appears to be a couple years.  Haven’t pinged the “harbor master” yet to see if they’d be willing to connect me with the owner.

Firgure id be doing some beer can races and weekend regattas.   Plus since the boat has a somwhat livable interior, maybe some light weekend overnight cruising with shmbo.

i have not joined the 235 forum yet for info, I figure they’d be slightly biased in favor of the boat,

im sure there are plenty of opinions around here that would be welcome.

yes I’m aware that on its best day it is a 5-6 ktsb.

what say you all?

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There was one that shared a dock with me for years,  a wing-keeled version owned by a very nice guy that kept it in great,  if utterly stock shape.  I was always impressed by the accommodations.  We sailed it together one time and I was astounded at the lethargy on display - perhaps it wasn't a nice clean bottom or the shapeless bedsheets he hoisted where the sails are supposed to go but I was never quite able to get my head around how stuck to the sea it was - (that one day)  maybe I just got it on a really bad day - wasn't very breezy (for here) iirc.

 

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They are great little boats 

very solid and capable 

I had one for a few years and loved it but moved up to a Figaro 

I don’t think there is a better small boat  that combines Interior setup and sailing ability 

put a asymmetrical on it and have fun

Tbere is a good owners website 

beneteau235.com

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I think that there is a better keel that was designed for it that looked to be Abigail improvement

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Owned one for years, decent little boat. Don’t the the 235 name fool you, it’s exactly 21.5 feet long. But very big for its size due to amazing space utilization. Go compare to a Catalina 22 (exactly same hull length) to see what I mean. By all means snap up any fin keel version you find, much better than the US-spec wing on 90% of them.

 

things to watch for:

the headliner will fall

the z190 mast section is underspecd, and the original spreader system was iffy. A bad combo

party due to the above, the rigging includes a baby-stay. Many sail without it. 

the 3-post bow pulpit was designed before roller furling was a thing.

cockpit best for short handed / cruising, a cluster while crewed racing  

 

but a fun quick little boat, and driving from the rail with an extension is one of the great joys in sailing. 

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Gk,  yeah I saw that lead fin/bulb was designed aftermarket. To replace the steel one. But I think it also depends the draft.  Given I’d be sailing on the Potomac. I really don’t want to go deeper.

Jack,  thanks for the feedback.  Yeah the cockpit looked a bit short maybe no more than 2 in the cockpit with the other folk having scramble under the boom or Around the mast for tacks.  

Still need to locate the owner before I start crawling around the boat...this could still be a pipe dream.  

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12 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

Gk,  yeah I saw that lead fin/bulb was designed aftermarket. To replace the steel one. But I think it also depends the draft.  Given I’d be sailing on the Potomac. I really don’t want to go deeper.

Jack,  thanks for the feedback.  Yeah the cockpit looked a bit short maybe no more than 2 in the cockpit with the other folk having scramble under the boom or Around the mast for tacks.  

Still need to locate the owner before I start crawling around the boat...this could still be a pipe dream.  


biggest issue is mid-boom sheeting puts the traveler on a small bridge deck just aft of the companionway. Hence headsail trimmers must sit between the driver and main trimmer. 

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32 minutes ago, Jackdaw said:


biggest issue is mid-boom sheeting puts the traveler on a small bridge deck just aft of the companionway. Hence headsail trimmers must sit between the driver and main trimmer. 

Which makes it nice an tidy for short handed or small crew members.  

 

How about the single backstay.  Did interefere with the tiller/steering at all

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16 minutes ago, Marcjsmith said:

Which makes it nice an tidy for short handed or small crew members.  

 

How about the single backstay.  Did interefere with the tiller/steering at all

An ideal shorthand setup on the boat would have the traveler boom-end and back by the driver. Then you drive dinghy-style. But the cockpit lockers prohibit that.

 

the backstay is slightly offset and looks kinda odd, but works OK. In practice it does not effect/limit the normal range of the tiller. 

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4 hours ago, Jackdaw said:

An ideal shorthand setup on the boat would have the traveler boom-end and back by the driver. Then you drive dinghy-style. But the cockpit lockers prohibit that.

What if you moved it to the floor and aft, like the first 210.  Could the boom support near end sheeting,  could the floor of the cockpit handle the main sheet loads, how much of performance hit would it be to have the main sheet stuck centerline

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1 hour ago, Marcjsmith said:

What if you moved it to the floor and aft, like the first 210.  Could the boom support near end sheeting,  could the floor of the cockpit handle the main sheet loads, how much of performance hit would it be to have the main sheet stuck centerline

Well I suppose you could, but it is long way down, so a small shin-buster traveller between the footwells would be best, or a blarney post. Anytime you cannot get the boom to centerline it's bad, and the longer the sheet run is, the worse it is. 

 

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Hey Jackdaw, "Blarney Post" ? Is that for an Irish mainsheet system? Is Darby O'Gill and  or one of his little people your mainsheet trimmer? Most of us have a Barney post without the purple dinosaur. We need his weight on the rail.

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45 minutes ago, Callahan said:

Hey Jackdaw, "Blarney Post" ? Is that for an Irish mainsheet system? Is Darby O'Gill and  or one of his little people your mainsheet trimmer? Most of us have a Barney post without the purple dinosaur. We need his weight on the rail.

A little bit of Google-fu would have ended your confusion. I didn't come up with the term.

 

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=blarney+post+mainsheet

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barney blarney,    it would make a good option  but still gotta get the boat first.  hell it might not even be available

thanks for the feedback folks.  I'm going to talk to the marina today and see if they can put me in contact with the owner

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6 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

barney blarney,    it would make a good option  but still gotta get the boat first.  hell it might not even be available

thanks for the feedback folks.  I'm going to talk to the marina today and see if they can put me in contact with the owner

https://www.beneteau235.com/index.htm

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I've always thought they looked like a sweet shorthanded setup....basically an old-school Mini, with accomodations.  I might upgrade the rudder/gudgeons...

 

I thought the class website was gorgeous, but pretty moribund.  The deep keel thing was a Leif Beiley design and his shop did the pour, many years ago.

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Grand.  I’ve already been there and ask for permission to join to get more info. Unfortunalty you gotta be a member to read the forum.  Once I’m in,  I guess I could do a vin search and see if I can track down the owner that way if the marina doesn’t come through.   

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20 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

Grand.  I’ve already been there and ask for permission to join to get more info. Unfortunalty you gotta be a member to read the forum.  Once I’m in,  I guess I could do a vin search and see if I can track down the owner that way if the marina doesn’t come through.   

i always wanted a 235,  it was the right size of the lakes around here and had enough accommodations down below to make it a decent weekender..   didn't find one with a full keel though,  i've heard the wing keels weren't the best sailing boats around..

some years ago, i met a young couple who bought one and were fixing it up to do a grand tour.. they were going to drive it up to great lakes, head towards the st lawrence, and then down the east coast ...(before the internet rage)   i wonder how far they got.. 

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ok made contact... yay.   maybe  

I have not been on the boat,  I have only seen pictures  still waiting on access for the first 235 forum to ask more question and do better research

its a 1987 hull  

  • needs sails (not sure if that means its got crusty bed sheets or its got no fabric at all), 
  • needs rigging (not sure if that means it just needs to be rigged or if it needs specific rigging parts awaiting answer),
  • Has not been in the water for about 2 years, maybe longer, waiting for answer,
  • No motor
  • needs bottom paint
  • all exterior woods needs a good cleaning and oil
  • all exterior glass needs a good scrub down and cleaning with power tools (wax on wax off, among other things)
  • I would assume all winches taken apart and cleaned and oiled.
  • Electronics (who knows)
  • there appears to have been a flood inside (hatch left open maybe)  or sunk (question asked  waiting for answer) as the cabinetry at the very bottom near the bilge has water damage.  bilge is very shallow with not enough room for a pump. ice box drains into bilge
  • from the outside,   keel hull joint looks good, no funny indentations or cracks.
  • rudder looks sound

so is it a solid hull,  or do we have any foam and balsa that I need to worry about for the core...  if I get permission to board the boat,  is there anything  specific I should be looking for....

water stains under shroud penetrations, stains in the head liner, stains around windows... to try to explain water in the bilge.  Rigging. looking for cracks and rust...

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No sails

has been out of water for 3 years. Current owner has not ever had boat in the water.  He bought boat on the hard not rigged.  So he’s not aware of any rigging issues.  

water inside claims to have been an open hatch from previous owner.   Vin search show no claims or salvage damage.

Has title for boat, no title for trailer, just a bill of sale from previous owner  trailer is a tandem axle rig with a cradle mounted to it. Not sure how hard it would be to get a title for the trailer. I don’t see myself trailering the boat.  But if the boat is in the water, then I gotta find storage space for the trailer.

nada low retail 8800. Well no one pays retail.  Needs sails, needs a motor, needs some wood work, needs elbow grease needs bottom paint.

should be able to get a better look at it tomorrow and get inside  with permission 

I’ll Take pics and post.  Any wisdom on an inspection would be welcome.

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So we got pics...  standing rigging looks solid.  Winches are a bit heavy to rotate...

a few cracks in the gelcoat near the anchor well in the bow. But walking around the deck, feels pretty sound, no soft spots.   No apparent rust or bubbling on the keel. No blisters.

no interior cushions, all running rigging is shit.

interior wood.  Well it’s bad.   Kinda like with an old house, that house might have good bones,  but a gut and rebuild is what’s in order...  the question is, a perfect first 235 might be worth 10k, might.

is it worth the project.  Ie, could you gut the interior, and rebuild it the way you want, buy new sails,  outboard,running rigging ect, and come out with a nice cruiser/ shorthand racer.

09452603-319E-4F7C-ADD3-AAB114DB20C8.jpeg

F085462C-B74D-4E88-8020-B29F578807E3.jpeg

AE0EA7B6-0E39-494E-9801-8F7D798E7845.jpeg

9932BCA0-6D28-4D63-BDAA-D2BA260F30BA.jpeg

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More pics,  but I think just about every piece of interior wood needs to be replaced. 

A56F1062-9EFB-4163-AB10-1C528AED7821.jpeg

4FEC37CC-66EE-4388-8754-12C7D0A180A9.jpeg

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Headliner is moldy.  As well...

So basically,  chop cut rebuild.   Are the bones of a 1987  first 235 worthy of being  gutted and rebuilt....

what’s the boat worth... a trailer with no title has no value.   Is the boat a giveaway at this point.  Does it have any value.    If the owner has the boat for another year. It will be a total 6000 spent in dry storage. Over the last few years.

I have wood working skills to do the job... but. Is it worth the project?? To start over. 

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I've always thought these looked like cool boats but every one of those photos screams "run away".

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That boat should be available for $1. One dollar. You're looking at a crapload of work and money to make it sailable. When you're done, you've spent two hundred hours and a thousand dollars or more on a 21 foot boat.

A COOL 21 foot boat, for sure, but a 21 foot boat.  You will not make up your time or money here, so take on this project if and only if you think it will be a really fun project. If you LIKE ripping out rotten wood and cutting new bits and glassing it all back together, then cool.

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8 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

I'm sure I missed it, cradle, trailer, other?

Both, Cradle mounted to a trailer.  So getting on and off the boat while working on it is that much more of a chore  nice and stable though so it’s got that going for it...

alan,  I was thinking several thou. Easily.

running rigging, sails, small outboard and electronics would chew up 2-3 if I was able to scare up some used sails and a used outboard   the mid 80s datamarine electronics are likely shot and while you’ve got everything opened up it would make sense to rewire. And maybe put new in.  Which means now youve got 3 holes in the cabin near the hatch that need repair.

And this is just the stuff that we can see easily.

the “cool” part would be the ability to completely layout the interior to your liking.  Not like a 21’ boat is a big canvas for ground breaking interior design but could add a bit of fun to the project.

F164F138-0C0A-44C7-A520-D317A4D43D1B.jpeg

58E79F6E-F420-42DF-BDC1-C0A771A94733.jpeg

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For an old iron keel that looks great.  Mine was much worse, but has seemed to hold up to the rework for the last 3.5 years.  It that boat suits your needs and you could get it for way, way, way cheap, it would be a fun project!  Light simple interior for how many people you plan on having.  From the web site, be sure to take care of the transom!  Although with the deeper fin keel, guess it will hit prior to the rudder.

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23 minutes ago, bridhb said:

For an old iron keel that looks great.  Mine was much worse, but has seemed to hold up to the rework for the last 3.5 years.  It that boat suits your needs and you could get it for way, way, way cheap, it would be a fun project!  Light simple interior for how many people you plan on having.  From the web site, be sure to take care of the transom!  Although with the deeper fin keel, guess it will hit prior to the rudder.

I have to agree with those saying that there is nothing I've seen yet that contributes value. This should be a boat that they pay you to haul off their property.

It certainly has the potential to be restored and be a very cool little boat. The Bennie 235 is a super boat for the match of sailing characteristics and comforts/room. It's not a sportboat but it'll sail rings around most mass-market 23~ 25 footers of it's era. I happen to think it's a good looking boat too.

It not only needs all new running rigging (as a guess off the top of my head, there goes $3~4k easily), new sails ($8~9k new, used.... how low can you go), wiring and instruments (write your own number here), and a complete bulkhead job... that means building a set of support frames for the hull so you can rip the old bulkheads out without having the hull shape distort...

This is a potentially great little boat, but it's a huge project. It's getting up to be more work than building a boat from scratch. Worth it? Your call.

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

It not only needs all new running rigging (as a guess off the top of my head, there goes $3~4k easily)

Figure out what line could do all the running rigging and find a friend with a business that could buy a spool wholesale.  I worked with a local marine business and was shocked at the markup on line.  I'm sure you could come away with something for well under $1/ft and do the boat for well under $1K total.

I was involved with homemade airplanes for a while and the mantra was if you want to build, build.  If you want to fly, buy.  If working on a boat gives you great pleasure (you sick bastard if so) then a project is probably a great idea, if not, as others have said, run.  I would be embarrassed if you even considered more than $2K as an extreme upper limit.  I'd start at $1K just to be respectful and show the current owner the list of upgrades required and their estimated costs.  

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I agree with @Alan H, the horrible condition of this boat isn't worth more than one dollar at most.  Don't be foolish!  Buy a boat you can enjoy right away.

FYI, here is an old thread about the 235 keel:

and related images that I contributed to it that disappeared when DropBox changed their policy about images in a /public folder:

http://www.islandcad.com/marine/keel_replacement/

beiley_f235_lead_bulb_2.png

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53 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I was involved with homemade airplanes for a while and the mantra was if you want to build, build.  If you want to fly, buy.  If working on a boat gives you great pleasure (you sick bastard if so) then a project is probably a great idea, if not, as others have said, run. 

This, absolutely.

You mention used outboard, used sails, etc but to me that removes the only potential upside I see: that when you've done all this work, you at least end up with a nice boat with new equipment. If you end up with used sails and a used outboard anyway, just go buy one of the many other used boats out there that are actually usable.

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Over on CA, there is a loong thread by  @Bull City  on renovating a H-boat.  A bit longer, but light and skinny with long overhangs, so about the same amount of boat.

The result is gorgeous, and Bull seems rightly thrilled with it, but it cost lots and took ages.

The only reason I can see for taking on this Bene would be that you a) love a resto job, and b) you want to pimp it up into something way better than you could buy off the shelf.

Neither reason seems enough on its own.  If you want to pimp a ride, start with a more modern hull.  If you want resto, start with something that more classic status so that it will have some resale value.

 

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Over on CA, there is a loong thread by  @Bull City  on renovating a H-boat.  A bit longer, but light and skinny with long overhangs, so about the same amount of boat.

The result is gorgeous, and Bull seems rightly thrilled with it, but it cost lots and took ages.

@Marcjsmith TwoLegged is almost right. It did cost lots, mostly because everything but the bottom was professionally Awlgripped. However, the whole process took about 6 months, mid-Fall to mid-Spring. I enjoyed the project and I've been very happy with the boat. I got a lot of good advice from SA members.

I should emphasize that the boat was very sound and had been taken care of. It was really ready to sail. The sails were good. There were one or two soft spots in the FG that were easily fixed. But all of the bulkheads and interior wood were fine - just needed cleaning or re-finishing. I loved hull shape and most everything about the boat, but I wanted to address aesthetics, and get the details the way I wanted them. The big items were:

  • The Awlgrip job
  • Removing 90% of deck hardware and plugging dozens of holes
  • Removing old hard bottom paint & new bottom paint
  • Removing hull & head liners and painting interior of hull & overhead
  • Refinishing interior cabinets and other woodwork, and exterior teak
  • Re-glassing hull-to-keel  joint
  • Installing some new & some re-used deck hardware
  • New running rigging
  • New winches
  • New interior & cockpit cushions

The Beneteau looks like a complete gut and rebuild. I wouldn't do it unless it was a very special boat.

Good luck.

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Thanks all,  yeah it’s definitly got its pluses and minuses 

used motors don’t scare me and working on fuel burning equipment is pretty easy.

used sails, yeah it’s like putting v6 in a car that deserves a v8. The benefit to going used,  is to save significant money, while I figure out what Inventory i need/want if I end just enjoying cruising and the occasional beer can race or weekend regatta, no real need to spend thousands on racing material

pimping the ride-not sure how much I’d change or not but having the blank slate inside is a neat opportunity/challenge not a whole lot outside to change.

special boat-right now it’s just another boat on the hard that caught my eye   

Projects-I love projects and I love working on things and coming up on a slow time right now.

current owner tossed out the price $5000.  I said nothing, 

 

 

.   

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4 minutes ago, Marcjsmith said:

current owner tossed out the price $5000

Yikes.

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1 hour ago, Marcjsmith said:

current owner tossed out the price $5000.  I said nothing, 

Do not call him with an offer, let him call you when he arrives back on planet earth.  

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1 hour ago, mathystuff said:

Yikes.

Yeah,  there not many for sale, but ones I’m seeing mostly Europe  are asking  more than 10k usd.   And we all know  that no such thing as a turn key used boat.  

Figure purchase price, labor, materials would have to be less than what I could find a comparable boat for....

and even then......???

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9 minutes ago, Marcjsmith said:

Yeah,  there not many for sale, but ones I’m seeing mostly Europe  are asking  more than 10k usd.   And we all know  that no such thing as a turn key used boat.  

Figure purchase price, labor, materials would have to be less than what I could find a comparable boat for....

and even then......???

Didn't see you where in the US. Is there a comparable boat common in the US? Lots of advantages to be had in owning a common boat.

You'd also have to figure in whether you would ever realistically get that boat restored, because that's going to take a shitton of time. Absolutely get someone to professionally check if hull and deck are wet, if you consider it at all.

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Hokie. thanks the cl link,  I must have been just outside my cl search distance...

dont think that I have fallen for anything...just trying to garner as much information as I can to make a decision....  

and yess it would be a shitton of hours spent after work and on weekends and the worst part is that all  oF the work is 30 minutes away from all my tools and materialsat my house Which would make the pita factor greater.  

 

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I can't argue with the saying there is nothing as expensive as a cheap boat, and the best advice if you want to sail is to find one that is well sorted. However, I had one for several years that was in some ways was worse and cleaned up quite well. Mine didn't have the same degree of wood damage but had been stripped for racing so it was a jig saw puzzle to find/replace old parts. This is a roomy, long waterline boat with the fin keel and what looks like a fair bottom. They are a very tender boat (you learn to step near the centreline), but I sailed mine double and singlehanded in a lot of different weather. They sail a bit funny, even with tons of rake the helm was neutral/ lee biased, but they track beautifully.A solid glass hull avoids a lot of problems although they still can blister and the deck needs to be solid.

- The end grain of the plywood was not sealed well. They all get at least staining or peeling of the veneer. It looks really bad, but can be sanded, epoxied filled if necessary, and painted white. If it is truly rotted from water standing and it's soft in more than a couple of spots, then I agree the boat is done and step away.

- Engine - most are going to come with an old outboard that is usually done. Mine lasted a year and I replaced it with a new 5hp 4 stroke long shaft for $1,400 CAD. A 6 or even 8 hp gives best speed but is heavier.

- Sails - most will have an original 80's Elvstrom main and jib. Budget for a new main, #2  and perhaps an assym kite unless racing. A cut down #3 is handy if solo.

- Headliner - it always fails, replacing it all with new HullBlanket from SailRite was a weekend job.

- Cushions - Sewed mine with Sunbrella, although I would leave that to the pros next time.

- Traveller - it doesn't need to be moved. It sails like a J-24, helm and main in the cockpit, jib trimmer hikes by the cabintop and crossed the bridgedeck when tacking.

The costs for mine added up to about 30% more than planned, mainly because of all the "one more" things like new graphics, hull stripes, hardware. At least the size of the boat means there is only so much you can spend. So, like everyone above, if you are looking for a cheap boat to get sailing, look elsewhere. If you get some satisfaction from seeing something neglected clean up and you have a space and lots of time to work on it, then maybe.

F235.JPG

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On 8/3/2020 at 2:18 PM, Marcjsmith said:

current owner tossed out the price $5000.  I said nothing

Yeesh. I picked up a nearly-immaculate Catalina 22 in good sailing condition with new sails (plus new asym cruising spin), great condition trailer, new standing rigging, and a whole host of goodies from Catalina Direct for $4200 back in April of this year. PO had all the paperwork in order and came with a (so far!) bulletproof, first-pull-start Honda 5 horse.

 

I'd expect a 20-22 ft. sailboat to be in great cruising condition with no major outstanding issues for $5k. Bene 235 is even more annoying because you don't have Catalina Direct to supply all the parts & pieces. Asking $5k for a non-pedigree 22' boat in need of what is surely another $5k of maintenance (not upgrades, just maintenance) to go in the water? The guy is either crazy or, more likely, has never had a boat before and doesn't understand how boat valuation works.

 

Actually, given that he bought a 22'er with extensive water damage, no rigging or sails, and never put it in the water, that's probably what happened... it's up to you whether you want to educate him or not!

 

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2 hours ago, Coaster said:

I can't argue with the saying there is nothing as expensive as a cheap boat, and the best advice if you want to sail is to find one that is well sorted. However, I had one for several years that was in some ways was worse and cleaned up quite well. Mine didn't have the same degree of wood damage but had been stripped for racing so it was a jig saw puzzle to find/replace old parts. This is a roomy, long waterline boat with the fin keel and what looks like a fair bottom. They are a very tender boat (you learn to step near the centreline), but I sailed mine double and singlehanded in a lot of different weather. They sail a bit funny, even with tons of rake the helm was neutral/ lee biased, but they track beautifully.A solid glass hull avoids a lot of problems although they still can blister and the deck needs to be solid.

- The end grain of the plywood was not sealed well. They all get at least staining or peeling of the veneer. It looks really bad, but can be sanded, epoxied filled if necessary, and painted white. If it is truly rotted from water standing and it's soft in more than a couple of spots, then I agree the boat is done and step away.

- Engine - most are going to come with an old outboard that is usually done. Mine lasted a year and I replaced it with a new 5hp 4 stroke long shaft for $1,400 CAD. A 6 or even 8 hp gives best speed but is heavier.

- Sails - most will have an original 80's Elvstrom main and jib. Budget for a new main, #2  and perhaps an assym kite unless racing. A cut down #3 is handy if solo.

- Headliner - it always fails, replacing it all with new HullBlanket from SailRite was a weekend job.

- Cushions - Sewed mine with Sunbrella, although I would leave that to the pros next time.

- Traveller - it doesn't need to be moved. It sails like a J-24, helm and main in the cockpit, jib trimmer hikes by the cabintop and crossed the bridgedeck when tacking.

The costs for mine added up to about 30% more than planned, mainly because of all the "one more" things like new graphics, hull stripes, hardware. At least the size of the boat means there is only so much you can spend. So, like everyone above, if you are looking for a cheap boat to get sailing, look elsewhere. If you get some satisfaction from seeing something neglected clean up and you have a space and lots of time to work on it, then maybe.

Post of the day for me.  

Coaster, you do excellent work.  That is about as clean of boat as I've seen in a long time.  Job well done!

 

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11 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

Hokie. thanks the cl link,  I must have been just outside my cl search distance...

dont think that I have fallen for anything...just trying to garner as much information as I can to make a decision....  

and yess it would be a shitton of hours spent after work and on weekends and the worst part is that all  oF the work is 30 minutes away from all my tools and materialsat my house Which would make the pita factor greater.  

 

Marc, I would pass. There are many better choices out there.

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Hey folks,  thanks for feedback.   I found a couple Catalina 22’s.  One in jersey on a trailer. One in MDin the water and also a hunter 26.5 (not the water ballast one) in MD in the water

both 22 appear to have been recently refurbished or at least well kept, as is the hunter   obviously im looking at different performance numbers comparing the BENE to the Catalina,  the hunter has similar phrf numbers compared to the BENE.  And a bit more focus towards cruising comfort (which might make shmbo take a bit more interest). Adding a few feet oF loa, and nearly a foot of beam will do that though...

going to try to make the couple hour drive to take a look at the MD boats this weekend. 

 

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2 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

Hey folks,  thanks for feedback.   I found a couple Catalina 22’s.  One in jersey on a trailer. One in MDin the water and also a hunter 26.5 (not the water ballast one) in MD in the water

I have an '88 (87?) Hunter 26.5.  Not a bad boat.  They're a little tender, so reef early.  MIne has the wing keel (may have been the only option) which allows us to get close to shore on our impoundment lake.  It's a fun day sailor, and there's enough room to have a few guests.  Things to look for are a rotten transom where the engine mount is.  I recored mine from the inside out.

There was a Bene first 285 for sale a couple of years ago at my marina, still kinda wish I'd jumped on that.

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I always liked the look of the 235.  Very impressive room below for the size and managed NOT to look like a pig.  Like the 285 too....

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Well they do slips in 5’ increments. So it is what it is..

robbie,  yeah I liked the look of the 235 as well, kinda looked sporty even.   It was a bit crowded down below with the table trying to get to the v berth.  But it was a well though interior all things considered. 

Not sure if the 26.5 had a deep keel option.  

Any idea what cores there are on the 26.5. Foam, balsa or solid?

 

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So I’ve got the following places to look

craigslist

Boattrader

Sailboat listings

sailing texas   

Any other good spots to check...the worts thing about sailboat listings and sailing Texas is so many old ads   

Taking a look at the hunter tomorrow   

 

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18 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

Any idea what cores there are on the 26.5. Foam, balsa or solid?

I can tell you the transom on mine was "compost".  I *think* it was plywood.  I replaced it with marine ply.

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3 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

So I’ve got the following places to look

craigslist

Boattrader

Sailboat listings

sailing texas   

Any other good spots to check...the worts thing about sailboat listings and sailing Texas is so many old ads   

Taking a look at the hunter tomorrow   

 

https://www.sailingtexas.com/202001/ss291105.html

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Hunter was fair.  Rained last night and I was able to notice half a dozen places where water dripped in.  Lots of gelcoat cracks in the deck,  and the soft transom as well.....  never put yes on the Catalina 22, no call back. 

 But did put eyes on a Capri 22.  Which may be a bit more race oriented than I’m wanting to go but we’ll see.

 

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25 minutes ago, Marcjsmith said:

Hunter was fair.  Rained last night and I was able to notice half a dozen places where water dripped in.  Lots of gelcoat cracks in the deck,  and the soft transom as well.....  never put yes on the Catalina 22, no call back. 

 But did put eyes on a Capri 22.  Which may be a bit more race oriented than I’m wanting to go but we’ll see.

 

A Capri 22 isn't really all that "race-oriented." Nice sailing little boat, though

FB- Doug

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This Capri is well sorted out for racing.

Needs, bottom paint has a good barrier coat needs a lot of spit and polish on the above the waterline gelcoat   

 I know the owner and  him selling the boat is a new development.  

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23 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

Thanks. A bit out of my league though 

this one is taking up space and money, an offer of 6500 would probably get it... has everything you'd need and wouldn't have to spend money to upgrade.. a 30' boat is a nice size..

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While I've always thought the 235's  were cool, $5K for that boat is a hallucination.   The current owner is spending $150 - $200 a month to keep it there, and do nothing. He's done that for YEARS. That tells you how deep the hallucination is. You just walked away from HUNDREDS of hours of work.

Smart....if what you want to do is sail, rather than sniff epoxy and sawdust....though lord knows there are guys and gals who love to work on boats.

Capri 22's are good little boats.

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Search continues. Haven’t discounted the Capri. But not sure the wife would be happy on a boat set up 100% for racing with minimal creature comforts
 

 Saw a listing for a 1984 Cal 24. Mk3

main, 3 jibs, 2 spin  Outboard.  Due for a bottom job this winter. 
 

did some searching for cal24 info. But findings were sparse

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The Hunt designed Cal 24's are pretty nice. I taught sailing on one for a while.

The Capri 22 is NOT a "dedicated race boat", it's really not. It's just a "little bit racier" than a Catalina 22.

Think about this.....how much time is The Lady going to spend, SLEEPING on the boat?  Be brutally honest with yourself, and with her.

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Alan,

I agree, that ona boat the size of Catalina 22, probably not a whole lot of overnights.  Think tent camping...

the cal 24 is a (slight) step up from tent camping,  But not nearly as sporty as the Capri 

This Capri is very very race oriented.  Not that it couldn’t be dumbed down. 

I guess I need to think while I’d love having my hair on fire making the boat go as fast it can,  I really want her to be involved  and enjoy sailing.  Which means taking a step back and looking at something that’s a bit “cruiser” friendly as well..

 

yes andy it is a cal 24 hunt looks good in pictures   But we’ll see...

 

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Marc, honestly....a Capri 22 is not like sailing an Aussie 18 skiff. It's nothing like a Melges 24. Those are RACING boats. A Capri 22 is a slightly higher performance racer-cruiser.

I mean if you just don't want a Capri 22, then fine, don't buy one. But the truth is that until you move up significantly in size, you're going to be "tent camping/cruising" in any 22-24 foot boat.  Does the Hunt-designed Cal 24 have more space below than the Capri 22? Sure. But is it enough to make a difference in terms of overnighting?  Not really.  The truth is, if you have a place to set up a camping stove, someplace to put a porta-potti, and two places for adults to lie down, you're all set. You'll have to move up to 26+ feet and a lot more money in terms of purchase price or maintainance or storage to move up to something that's significantly more than "camp cruising"

"hair on fire" in a Capri 22?  Naww....  go look at some Capri 22 videos on YouTube.  Now go look at some Melges 24 videos on YouTube. See the difference?

Besides,  i f you don't want to put the Capri 22 spinnaker up in 20 knots and see if you can pop the boat out of the water and plane, then ~Just Don't~.  The BOAT doesn't set your hair on fire...YOUR DECISIONS set your hair on fire.

All that said, if you just don't want a Capri 22, then don't buy one!

The late 80's / early 90's vintage Hunter 23's with the iron wing keels were pretty simple boats, easy to trailer and built well enough for most peoples useage.  Yeah, that iron wing keel can get pretty ugly, and the keel won't work as well as a straight fin, going to weather but if you're cruising and not racing, I always thought they were a pretty good deal....despite the general Hate-on-Hunter feelings a lot of people have.

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The Capri 22 is a nice sailing little boat. The cockpit & layout, ergonomics in general, are better than a J-22 IMHO. But yeah it's not a real racey-race boat.

Are there boats in that size range with nicer cabins? Yeah the Bennie 235 for example  ;)

Seriously, the best way to figure that part of the equation is to go to the boat in question and climb around on it, and inside it. There is simply no commonly available measure for that, to quantitatively compare boats like that.

Personally I liked the Santana 23, faster AND roomier/comfier than the Capri. And fair bit easier to trailer, if that's part of your personal equation. Or pull up to a beach, if it isn't.

Hunters? I owned one and thus feel I can speak freely of them. Built to a price, which means they cut any corner they think won't actually fall off.... in the first couple of years. But Hunter employed some very clever designers and they tend to be both faster and comfier than anything in the rice range. Of course, for ~>25 year old boats, the price range is very compressed.

FB- Doug

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Alan,  

Dont disagree on any of your points.  I just know my nature...if the go fast bits are there.  I’ll wanna go fast...to the point of making wife 1.0 uncomfortable.  I’m stubborn(stupid) like that.

 

spent many days ona hunter 34 and a hunter 30 back in my formative years.  At my current price point.  They are on the list.    not looking to dry sail or trailer. As that would mean more money for a tow vehicle.  

And yes at my price point I’m looking at boats that are 30 years old 

so many options decisions, trade offs, ect...

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Hunter 23 on yachtworld, in New Jersey.  That's a bit of a drive, but what the heck. Two bills is cheap. Hunter 23 weighs about 2400 pounds. Add in 800 more for the trailer and random stuff and a fair number of 6 cylinder cars can pull that.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/hunter-23-3692489/

And if you REALLY want ~Steady~ and ~Safe~ in this size range to please the wife, Yachtworld shows a Cape Dory 25 up in Maine for < $4K.

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1 hour ago, Alan H said:

Hunter 23 on yachtworld, in New Jersey.  That's a bit of a drive, but what the heck. Two bills is cheap. Hunter 23 weighs about 2400 pounds. Add in 800 more for the trailer and random stuff and a fair number of 6 cylinder cars can pull that.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/hunter-23-3692489/

And if you REALLY want ~Steady~ and ~Safe~ in this size range to please the wife, Yachtworld shows a Cape Dory 25 up in Maine for < $4K.

Don't ever buy a trailerable boat without a good trailer, unless you are -really- extra-positively sure you will never even slightly wish you could trailer it, AND you don't have a place to park the trailer. The trailer is a HUGE part of the value of the boat.

A lesson I have learned the hard way.

Besides there's one on Craigslist in Rehoboth Beach with a trailer, on Craigslist for $2,500, says it "needs TLC" which of course means it's fucked. But it might be worth contacting the seller @Marcjsmith, if you'd be interested. As noted, the iron wing keel has some issues. But these boats sail OK, and they're so much more comfy and practical than the ubiquitous Catalina 22 that I'm always a little bemused that crowds of enlightened sailors don't gather around bonfires of Catalina 22s to chant and rejoice.

One of the Hunters, Lagunas, Precisions (this boat here https://longisland.craigslist.org/boa/d/west-islip-neptune-24-sailboat/7172852287.html is a Precision under a different label), all will serve just fine if you're not hypped on ONE particular kind of boat. OTOH none of them are anything special, either, although you can... with work and money input... make any boat much more special to you.

If you want something slow and stable, Cape Dory is a choice. So is a Compac. The problem is that they will not be much fun to sail, nor do they shine in comfort. I'd suggest that you work carefully on the psychology of getting your wife to enjoy sailing.

My wife, whom I love dearly and consider ourselves to be newlyweds although it's 27 years now, was a sailor already. And an illustration of just how wide a sport "sailing" is, I've been sailing and racing all my life. She owned a boat herself, and was competent to take it out, sail around, and bring it back. She enjoyed the fresh air, the fact that you can "sail"  sitting down with a beer in your hand, and the social aspects. When a gust hit, she was most likely to gasp in alarm and if on the helm, spin the boat in a circle trying to head up into it. We raced a Lightning together, and after a couple of years of gentle encouragement, she actually helmed our boat thru a race. Later, she learned a bit of navigating and other big-boat seamanship. But when we retired and went cruising, we bought a trawler. Always tend to the practical needs! But my point is to bring her around slowly, no cursing, only very slight heeling (this may be a big issue), vary between giving her a job (teaching her carefully) and praising her for it, and singlehanding while catering to her and letting her read or nap or whatever. -If- you want her to like it, -you- have to take the initiative to give her reasons to like it!

I say all the above, and I hope it doesn't seem like massive pre-judgement, but far far too many friends and acquaintances say they wish their wives liked sailing and then, to all sensible observation, go out and deliberately try their damndest to make them hate it. If you take this misguided approach, it won't make the slightest fuckin'  difference what boat you pick.

FB- Doug

 

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if you are looking for something in the 22ish foot range and racing isn't your priority, I have always liked the look of these Gloucester 22's: 

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/87229 

Not the quickest little boats, but I remember them having nice sailing qualities. If you can find one of the 23 footers, I think they are even better looking than the 22. An example of the 23  https://www.sailingtexas.com/sgloucester23b.html

After the original company went out of business the 22's were built for a number of years in Kansas not to far from where I grew up along with a re-branded Laguna 26 and Newport 33 (I think), under the Classic Yachts name. 

A sailing friend was selling a 23 foot version when my family was looking and I still wish we had bought it. If we had I might still have it. I Also for sailing on the river, the keel centerboard might not be a bad thing... 

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@Marcjsmith  Have you considered a catboat?

You say you're not looking for "racy."  Catboats are beautiful, traditional and often have a lot of room for their size.  Shallow draft lets you play in the estuaries. They aren't J boats but they sail well.

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi-bin/saildata/db.cgi?uid=default&amp;keyword=catboat&amp;view_records=SearchbyKeyword&amp;sb=10&amp;so=

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Thought the thread has drifted from the Beneteau F235, I'll throw out there for reference I pick mine ('87 wing keel) up last fall in Salt Lake city for $4k with trailer & outboard, in sailable shape. It did have some damage to some of the bulkheads, not as extensive as the one in this thread. Fixed that over quarantine this spring and have been enjoying the boat.

jRrW0k6mv1vkBM4JOpKz26AH7f-YRKYUwMz2aNEK39ewk_VKGXvPsYHO2F8HBHvBUCAkM_TFoInYXqKf5DQq3VwKkXzbmXHoFiBZooAmRDi0dQDtHnF7k4-l2KPjewYjPE_FUQDzGCEg3oHuOuG_Rk1UqxQelQI01LnAg-VeNimr9SvCYDsBh7rIK_U5kfQ_oU0anVX6iUtoffhLRyYIvUilpGz6VEV5J1GkanquzTtdM8ZSxbqJbuvQn0HWWczS2PluLEZ3c_6_BiEM0n-OWXRv1J3XXRsRfRkk1lfsFE81nSgQw8Xl7AD8XSR8gVeInfLqVQlu71VgBiyx2x-ysaMf7pp0cdKSKspHMbAB2qqrjmkVyoLLZ9WKqtXsMbDG3LLoBNcb1rtIdShM4FlUcJpNlyQcvsOAOLX1WD8WcnngrBfgHAtVF2SfbSLAmuti229wygO74GBuSrwkW8HZy4GAnhllGnZ5-Z6JIE2jzZK9_IvvTmKob7nFcBn7ZFA_6omqUiG8iMV65E89p6uJN-_n6SOGngL5Gd1nfG3ZIoEx3B7Rm8Ud-DKVcfaAQDhRhF2p6GUyZu363K8JmaZfjL5t5Ek3jI_c32xD62tORspdvTmuwe8ivFDoUF-ow07R5FPsj2mIH24XE8OQMvXyV6av3ibxot0CnQmDbhWXkAMfk7is8-3kveGCAigK2AY=w838-h629-no?authuser=0
 
 
 

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If I was stone broke and wanted to cross an ocean, then a Cape Dory 25 would do it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jGO8Z29H2c

If I lived in New England, and STABILITY was the overriding factor, then that CD 25 might be the thing.  Otherwise, I dunno. I agree with Steam Flyer, they're a little low on the "Fun To Sail" quotient.  but if you just really do NOT want to set anybodys hair on fire, then there ya go.

The market for 22-24 foot, low-cost family cruiser-racers is enormous.  If you really could care less about racing, then I might think about trying to find a "regionally appropriate" boat....something built and designed in your area.  There's a reason why SF Bay is full of good old Santana 22's.

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No one has mentioned a Ranger 23, Very nice little Bruce Farr designed boat.  Sails very well, nice traditional looks and lots of them built. Tall rig rates 222 in PHRF. One made the crossing Calif to Hawaii just for fun.

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Or a C&C24, not so trailerable but fun to sail, and probably the most cruiser-friendly interior in that size.

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Trailerable Is NOT mandatory.  I would like to keep the boat in the water.  As I feel that I’d be more inclined to use it if it was a matter of just hopping on board tossing the lines and heading out (yes I know there is a bit more involved)

    As opposed to having a tow vehicle with enough grunt to tow around the yard and drag up and down the ramp or use the crane to drop in.

I can appreciate the benefits of having a trailer though. And the pitfalls of having to store it, tag it insure it.

looking at a couple boats this weekend. One in Deale, and one in Edgewater.  Which I’ll take the time to meander around the marinas and see if there is anything

hokie, I never made the three hour drive each way to look at it... as much as I may have grown amorous with the 235, with so many boats on the Maryland western shore,  Why drive hundreds of miles to look at something...

sorry for the thread drift, figure it doesn’t make sense to pop a new topic.

 

 

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I owned an O'day 240 (actually about 25' overall) for about 5 years.  Did the ICW from Fl Keys to Oriental NC in 2 months on it with an ex girlfriend (relationship lasted years after the trip).   Great boat, lead ballast, wing keel with 2'8" draft that worked quite well.  I'd buy one again.  Keep an eye out for one.  Lots of neat features.  From C Raymond Hunt same as the aforementioned Cal 24.  Bought it for $5k, sold it for $5k and put about that much into it over the 5 years of ownership including very nice set of tri-radial sails from Sperry Sailmakers.

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21 minutes ago, nlmasopust said:

I owned an O'day 240 (actually about 25' overall) for about 5 years.  Did the ICW from Fl Keys to Oriental NC in 2 months on it with an ex girlfriend (relationship lasted years after the trip).   Great boat, lead ballast, wing keel with 2'8" draft that worked quite well.  I'd buy one again.  Keep an eye out for one.  Lots of neat features.  From C Raymond Hunt same as the aforementioned Cal 24.  Bought it for $5k, sold it for $5k and put about that much into it over the 5 years of ownership including very nice set of tri-radial sails from Sperry Sailmakers.

Hunt designed a lot of good boats, even his mediocre ones. I raced a pop-top Oday 23 for a couple of years, at the time I did not realize how spoiled I was and thought of it as a stupid boat; but it actually sailed fairly well and it was nice to be able to stand up, in the evening. It's worst habit was that the rudder was rather stubby and would suddenly ventilate, making the boat a bit of an adventure to steer in gusts.

There are lot of potentially nice boats out there, and the dirty secret of boat ownership is that they're ALL fixer-uppers.... some more so than others. Catalina 25, Oday 222, non-pop-top Oday 23 for free in Annapolis, an old bubble-top Columbia 26 with a Yanmar,  Cal 25 (mentioned above I think), lotsa possibilities (non-WTF) from Craigslist. BUt you have to go look in person, which is kind of a PITA and a risk these days.

I should say the travel -to- look is a PITA but I always enjoy window-shopping boats. Just a walk on the docks. And this is really the best way to find something appealing, if you obsess over the internet and only go physically look at 2 of them, that's a tough limit. What if you married one of the first two women you ever met? Give yourself time to walk thru the boatyards, take a trip down to Deltaville and Mayo etc etc. A lot of stuff is for sale that is not on the Interwwwebs.

- DSK

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I wouldn't discount the ability to tow the boat home if you have that option. We have a 30 footer and driving back and forth between the house and the boat to work on various projects can get old. There are a lot of days that I wish I could load it up and park it in the driveway to work my way through some of the projects. When I was a kid, my family used to have a Mac 22 and we would haul it behind the family station wagon. I hauled up to college with my old S-10 pickup and kept it behind the rental house and took it to the local lakes on the weekends. A trailer opens up a lot of possibilities. But yeah, if you don't need it, storing it is a pain. 

As far as tow vehicles, a lot of boats in this size range aren't that heavy. Hell, my Subaru with a 4 cylinder has a 5000 pound tow rating. 

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It sounds like you're not necessarily looking for a trailer and are already committed to getting a slip priced in 5' increments. If that's the case, I'd recommend getting a 24-25 footer. I love not having to spend money on winter marina storage, or worry about marinas not letting me do my own maintenance work. However, a trailer can be a significant portion of the total "package price", so you'll get a comparatively nicer boat per dollar if you don't get one with a trailer.

 

I love my Catalina 22 and my boyfriend is more than happy to camp on it with me, but it's definitely closer to camping than anything else. We're both in our mid-20's and pretty resilient, but if I was older and trying to bring a possibly reluctant partner aboard for anything more than a daysail I'd go for a larger boat. 25' won't be that much more difficult to handle than 22' but will absolutely be more stable and potentially have things like an enclosed head or a respectable amount of headroom.

 

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3 hours is not far if it's the right boat; buying  an inexpensive production sailboat is more like trying to find a 30 year old car with low mileage in excellent shape than trying to pick up a 2012 Camry. You can rent an F150 or similar from enterprise truck rental (not enterprise car) for around $70/day with unlimited miles.

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