Greyhound37

do big race boats depreciate?

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This may be a record

Ragamuffin 2004 90'. Cost over $8 million US to build now $85,000.

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Build cost reflects time and design and time of workers. 
 

Current value factors in how much future investments are needed to make it work. 
 

CQS probably needs to come with a lump some payment to the next owner :(

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This may be the most asinine thread title I have ever seen... 

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It's well documented in these forums that it's not the initial cost of used big race boats as you call them.  It's the ongoing maintenance and upkeep that's the killer.

Think of it on a smaller scale, you can get into a used J/35 for a pretty good price.  Or say a brand new 35 footer of your choice for a lot more money.  Either way you're spending the same on storage, sails, regatta entries, etc...

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I think there's another factor at play as well, which is also apparent with luxury yachts, cars, and houses.

The rich people who can generally afford these things don't want somebody else's second hand crap - they want the latest and greatest showpiece.

And the 99% of us who would be just fine with one of these "hand-me-downs" don't have enough money to keep the dream alive. 

 

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Not to get political, but this is a prime example of the wealth inequality gap. Once the .01% have moved on, it's a big drop to the common guy.  

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3 minutes ago, gspot said:

I think there's another factor at play as well, which is also apparent with luxury yachts, cars, and houses.

The rich people who can generally afford these things don't want somebody else's second hand crap - they want the latest and greatest showpiece.

And the 99% of us who would be just fine with one of these "hand-me-downs" don't have enough money to keep the dream alive. 

 

That is the perfect definition of Sailboat Racing.

Yea, 8 mil for a boat that last....not that long? I'd be happy with a J 70 and race in SB.

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1 minute ago, Meat Wad said:

That is the perfect definition of Sailboat Racing.

Yea, 8 mil for a boat that last....not that long? I'd be happy with a J 70 and race in SB.

Hence why all events that are healthy encourage halo projects but also love IRC2-3 entrants. You need critical mass not just line honors. 

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How to thread title 101, listen and repeat:

'Do boats swim?'

'How wet is water?'

'Why is sailing?'

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5 minutes ago, C. Spackler said:

Not to get political, but this is a prime example of the wealth inequality gap. Once the .01% have moved on, it's a big drop to the common guy.  

You mean some sort of trickle down sailonomics? Fine with me.

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14 minutes ago, Matagi said:

You mean some sort of trickle down sailonomics? Fine with me.

That was what I said, but the fuel economy on my Learjet has been killing me. 

 

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C.  as a. common guy who used to work with the. 01%,  I was glad to have them there.   If I was a "planner" or a '"social worker" I would be taking that money and using it for the common political good.   We would be racing Optimists that were owned by the motherland and If you didn't win, and couldn't defect, you would. be sent back until your. mind was right.  Capitalism is messy, that's what makes it fun.

'

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35 minutes ago, C. Spackler said:

Not to get political, but this is a prime example of the wealth inequality gap. Once the .01% have moved on, it's a big drop to the common guy.  

But you did get political.

It's funny to me because there's many people in this world who would think that someone who owns and races a Cal 25 has to be about a wealthy a person as it gets.

The reality is, in a world view, if you enjoy the sport of sailing and have the means to read and post to this forum you ARE THE %.01

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2 hours ago, Greyhound37 said:

This may be a record

Ragamuffin 2004 90'. Cost over $8 million US to build now $85,000.

Yup 

 

i know  one that was listed at 1.2 million , then 850 k , presently 500 k

good boat, no offers 

it will probably go for 250k

 

in general racers , racer cruisers are a very poor investment 

 

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, C. Spackler said:

Not to get political, but this is a prime example of the wealth inequality gap. Once the .01% have moved on, it's a big drop to the common guy.  

7 minutes ago, glexpress said:

But you did get political.

It's funny to me because there's many people in this world who would think that someone who owns and races a Cal 25 has to be about a wealthy a person as it gets.

The reality is, in a world view, if you enjoy the sport of sailing and have the means to read and post to this forum you ARE THE %.01

That is about what it's like here in Cali. The State and Local Governments think that if you own a boat, you have too much spare $$$.

I'm sitting in my wheelchair and chat with someone and tell them I have a boat. You can see their eyes go wide thinking a yacht. Then I tell them it's only a 26' sailboat. They still think big. Most people have no concept of boating other than floating down a river.

But the original post is basically how I got my boat. in the 80's it was probably 14 to 16K new wo/sails. Over the years it passed hands and sat and sat. Someone bought it and raced it again, then PHRF hammered the rating because good sailors on a good boat win races. The boat sat and sat. I got it for 4k, dumped my $$$ and heart into it. I replaced enough, along  with new sails to be around the original 16K mark, which is nothing compared to new boats.

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And small race boats depreciate and mid size race boats depreciate  - ask a Swan 42, or C&C 99 or Farr 400 onwer - - they all do as the latest shiny object comes to the market....

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Back in Realville,  class envy. is used by the virus, to use the energy of the floaters to continue propagation.   Sales tax+property tax+property tax on the slip you don't own+parking tax=@20% ongoing cost that goes. into the "general fund". It has reached. the point where the parasitic fees have exceeded the depreciation of the vessel ,so that your wonderful boat is looked upon as a liability.   Most. of this didn't happen in the 60s,  so the market was broader.

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Small boats seem to have some bright spots. I bought my J-88 new in 2015 for $120,000. no sails or electronics and sold it for $120, a few months ago. So the cost of all the sails trailers and electronics was the depreciation. $40,000. +/-.Not bad after 5 years of racing.

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So only a finite number of people in this world can afford to build, maintain and operate mega yachts / huge racing vessels.  This number is constant.

 This number doesn't change if an owner decides to sell (or even giveaway) a yacht and build another.

So it stands to reason that people who can suddenly afford to maintain and operate these yachts would come out of the woodwork, no matter how much the price drops for the cost of the boat.

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5 minutes ago, glexpress said:

So only a finite number of people in this world can afford to build, maintain and operate mega yachts / huge racing vessels.  This number is constant.

 This number doesn't change if an owner decides to sell (or even giveaway) a yacht and build another.

So it stands to reason that people who can suddenly afford to maintain and operate these yachts would come out of the woodwork, no matter how much the price drops for the cost of the boat.

Exactly - the price and market activity is largely dependent on the number of people who can afford it. 

This essentially drives up the price for things that the masses can afford, and drives down the price for things the masses cannot afford.

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1 hour ago, glexpress said:

It's well documented in these forums that it's not the initial cost of used big race boats as you call them.  It's the ongoing maintenance and upkeep that's the killer.

Think of it on a smaller scale, you can get into a used J/35 for a pretty good price.  Or say a brand new 35 footer of your choice for a lot more money.  Either way you're spending the same on storage, sails, regatta entries, etc...

A J/35 is a bad example. They are overall nice boats for cruising or daysailing and still can be raced anyplace with a PHRF fleet. The routine annual costs are doable for a middle-class family.

A large single-purpose race boat literally has no other use. The annual storage and upkeep costs would be enormous, it is highly likely the boat would not even be useable without paid crew, so literally there is no use for most of these boats except to race them and if they are not good for that, they are pretty much scrap.

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I sold my Sunfast 3600 for 50% of its all in cost after 5 years and the new Sunfast 3300 is going to hammer the 3600 values as IT is the new shiny object!!

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1 hour ago, C. Spackler said:

That was what I said, but the fuel economy on my Learjet has been killing me. 

 

You may be joking, but that is a thing. I could buy an ancient Learjet tomorrow and not even need a loan. Could I fly it? Well sure, on the fuel that was in it when I bought it. After that, not so much. No one really wants noisy maintenance-intensive gas-guzzling old jets, they sell for parts/scrap value.

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1 hour ago, glexpress said:

The reality is, in a world view, if you enjoy the sport of sailing and have the means to read and post to this forum you ARE THE %.01

Up, no.

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2 hours ago, C. Spackler said:

Not to get political, but this is a prime example of the wealth inequality gap. Once the .01% have moved on, it's a big drop to the common guy.  

 It’s not exactly trickle down-  it’s more like flush down.
 

 But!  there is the formula

           $

________________     (  :wub:  )   =  :)

            H
 

H = hours sailing
 

 

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3 minutes ago, Amati said:

 It’s not exactly trickle down-  it’s more like flush down.
 

 But!  there is the formula

           $

________________     (  :wub:  )   =  :)

            H
 

H = hours sailing
 

 

You might want to invert that. :lol:

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3 hours ago, fan said:

This may be the most asinine thread title I have ever seen... 

You might wanna look up the Temptation threads.

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2 hours ago, Matagi said:

How to thread title 101, listen and repeat:

'Do boats swim?'

'How wet is water?'

'Why is sailing?'

Yes

Quite

Because

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Big old race boats have no value because it isn’t possible for them to win races anymore. 

... But isn’t there a thread about a crazy couple converting a TP52 into a fast cruiser? So maybe that would be an option. Ok, it isn’t as easy as in pre-IOR times, but it has been done. Ichi Ban for example?

Would make a good conversation starter. “She was a full-on Racer when we bought her for almost nothing. Took part in the Shithole-to-Nowhere race in 1912 or so... Here, look at these pictures - that was the ‘interior’ and here’s the cockpit... quite the pit, eh? Aaw, one more Aperol by the way? “ 

If I had the moolah I’d at least explore that option for my future mothership. 

 

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Think of the boats that get donated to schools and foundations. My school has had a Whitbread maxi as well as a bunch of 30-40 foot racing boats donated over the decades. USNA gets some really gorgeous specimens in the 50+ range on a regular basis. If these boats held real value, they wouldn’t be donated for the write off.

My dad donated an Alden schooner (apropos of the previous reply, was built for the 1931 fastnet) to a school in the 80s. Several dump trucks full of money later, the current owner now has a gorgeous charter boat. But she was essentially worthless when he donated her. 

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If they still keep winning! I know of an SC50 and a J-125 that the owners got a pretty good resale price. Not as much as they spent campaigning them.

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25 minutes ago, 10thTonner said:

Big old race boats have no value because it isn’t possible for them to win races anymore. 

... But isn’t there a thread about a crazy couple converting a TP52 into a fast cruiser? So maybe that would be an option. Ok, it isn’t as easy as in pre-IOR times, but it has been done. Ichi Ban for example?

Would make a good conversation starter. “She was a full-on Racer when we bought her for almost nothing. Took part in the Shithole-to-Nowhere race in 1912 or so... Here, look at these pictures - that was the ‘interior’ and here’s the cockpit... quite the pit, eh? Aaw, one more Aperol by the way? “ 

If I had the moolah I’d at least explore that option for my future mothership. 

 

Been done here ....the marina costs would be very high , the Anchorage options quite low , sail costs ?

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/listing/2237794142?bof=xfYPwU21

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1 hour ago, mathystuff said:

You might want to invert that. :lol:

:lol:  2 best days theory-

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At the opposite end of the spectrum, there's a guy on my dock with a Mirage 24. That boat has an ecosystem on the bottom. The roller furling was broken, the day he dropped the boat off, over ten years ago. The sail is still on it, rolled up. The headstay is broken, the now gray-with-filth jib halyards are holding the mast up. The outboard hasn't run in a decade. The deck was disgusting.

Ten years, twelve months per year is 120 months. 120 months X an average of $200 a month berth fees is  $24,000.  He's spent twenty-four-thousand dollars to store a boat, which is unsailable, and unsellable.

Well, he spent ten hours scrubbing the deck. I asked him why he didn't rent a pressure washer for $35, and he mumbled. The boat has really nice (old) self-tailing winches on it.  He took them off...'cause you know, "if the boat is going to be scrapped, I'll repack them and sell them"...riiiiight. I've told him three times....the new standing rigging is going to cost you $1,000. The haulout is going to be close to $1000 because your back is fucked up and you can't do the work yourself.  You have to replace all the running rigging. That's going to be $300 at least.  Lifelines? $200.  The jib is trashed, the roller furling is broken and is god-knows how old. You can't get parts for it....take it off and throw it away. You need a new mainsail and a new jib...That's going to be $2,000.   You need to spend at least $4,000 to make this boat sail-able again.

And you know what he said?

"I think I'll do all that, fix it up...and sell it."

At that point I realized that he doesn't actually live in this world, he lives in some imaginary world in his head.

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^^^ I'm not quite that far gone, but living a similar story.

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6 hours ago, slug zitski said:

in general racers , racer cruisers are a very poor investment

Sailboats are not an investment of any kind.

They are a lifestyle expenditure.

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if you only knew what some imocas sold for, or gawd forbid, ex cup boats......

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Why are we discussing this?

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3 hours ago, Alan H said:

At the opposite end of the spectrum, there's a guy on my dock with a Mirage 24. That boat has an ecosystem on the bottom. The roller furling was broken, the day he dropped the boat off, over ten years ago. The sail is still on it, rolled up. The headstay is broken, the now gray-with-filth jib halyards are holding the mast up. The outboard hasn't run in a decade. The deck was disgusting.

Ten years, twelve months per year is 120 months. 120 months X an average of $200 a month berth fees is  $24,000.  He's spent twenty-four-thousand dollars to store a boat, which is unsailable, and unsellable.

Well, he spent ten hours scrubbing the deck. I asked him why he didn't rent a pressure washer for $35, and he mumbled. The boat has really nice (old) self-tailing winches on it.  He took them off...'cause you know, "if the boat is going to be scrapped, I'll repack them and sell them"...riiiiight. I've told him three times....the new standing rigging is going to cost you $1,000. The haulout is going to be close to $1000 because your back is fucked up and you can't do the work yourself.  You have to replace all the running rigging. That's going to be $300 at least.  Lifelines? $200.  The jib is trashed, the roller furling is broken and is god-knows how old. You can't get parts for it....take it off and throw it away. You need a new mainsail and a new jib...That's going to be $2,000.   You need to spend at least $4,000 to make this boat sail-able again.

And you know what he said?

"I think I'll do all that, fix it up...and sell it."

At that point I realized that he doesn't actually live in this world, he lives in some imaginary world in his head.

You forget something: he got his money's worth because for family members, colleagues and friends (and self) he is a "yachtman"

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the short answer is that most people have no idea now much a billion is, people who play with 100 foot race boats make more in interest that day than the boat cost 

 

CYOpXsvWkAAbhNl.jpg.11258a528aea95186f1bab7a0ea7e7ee.jpg

 

 

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Everyone knows the purchase price of the yacht is the cheapest part of the process. 

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The value of a sailboat is either

** Whatever the owner thinks it is worth

or

** Whatever a buyer is willing to pay

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The value of a sailboat is either

** Whatever the owner thinks it is worth

or

** Whatever a buyer is willing to pay

 

 

^^^^^^This.

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14 hours ago, Greyhound37 said:

This may be a record

Ragamuffin 2004 90'. Cost over $8 million US to build now $85,000.

Tell him he's dreamin.

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9 hours ago, plenamar said:

You forget something: he got his money's worth because for family members, colleagues and friends (and self) he is a "yachtman"

Same reason the slowly decaying boats in Florida owned by slowly decaying people don't get sold, neither one can really move, they are going down together. The guy is a sailor to the last breath ;)

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18 hours ago, Amati said:

 It’s not exactly trickle down-  it’s more like flush down.
 

 But!  there is the formula

           $

________________     (  :wub:  )   =  :)

            H
 

H = hours sailing
 

 

Interesting that you use that quote as one of the best known maxi race boat owners, George David, called one his baots the Idler after that quote - followed by Rambler, 90, 100 and 88.

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18 hours ago, Amati said:

 It’s not exactly trickle down-  it’s more like flush down.
 

 But!  there is the formula

           $

________________     (  :wub:  )   =  :)

            H
 

H = hours sailing
 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rambler

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As mentioned above, (some?) AC boats'd have to have the worst depreciation... imagine the depreciation on the Alinghi catamaran after, what, 3 races? Alinghi 5 : Challenge and Adventure

... what ever happened to her?

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1 hour ago, jekyll said:

Interesting that you use that quote as one of the best known maxi race boat owners, George David, called one his baots the Idler after that quote - followed by Rambler, 90, 100 and 88.

The blessings of a classical education. :)  Building boats keeps a person off the streets.  It’s a sweet addiction.  (I’m not in George’s league, but I wish I were!)

You have, no doubt, perused my signature below....

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43 minutes ago, ALL@SEA said:

As mentioned above, (some?) AC boats'd have to have the worst depreciation... imagine the depreciation on the Alinghi catamaran after, what, 3 races? Alinghi 5 : Challenge and Adventure

... what ever happened to her?

But watching Stradivarius sail 30 feet from Amati was uplifting beyond words.  What price beauty?  And the Cat was even more beautiful. It would be amazing to see her sail by in person.

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21 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Yup 

 

i know  one that was listed at 1.2 million , then 850 k , presently 500 k

good boat, no offers 

it will probably go for 250k

 

in general racers , racer cruisers are a very poor investment 

 

 

 

 

Depends on your definition of the word ‘investment‘.  I’d say investing in a 7’ Bosendorfer was worth every penny, assuming you had it worked on every month.  The way Debussy Preludes sound on one of those things fills the soul.

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Couch cushion money for a lot of these folks.  It's play money.

Somewhere on another thread was a discussion of rental "fees" for a mega yacht.  Essentially a charter rate that said "go away"

So on paper, its a rental.

Fully depreciated asset for a business to offset some taxes?  This is way past my financial understanding of how it works in real gritty detail, but if true, I get the concept... sort of.

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23 hours ago, Greyhound37 said:

This may be a record

Ragamuffin 2004 90'. Cost over $8 million US to build now $85,000.

Why even sell it?  Tax play?  New sail  for the next boat?

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Closing down sale.

Sid has finally had to put the toys away and swallow the anchor,  a couple of years ago.  

The 90 would be about the last one left,  but I think the TP is still there for his grandson.

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3 minutes ago, Windward said:

Couch cushion money for a lot of these folks.  It's play money.

Somewhere on another thread was a discussion of rental "fees" for a mega yacht.  Essentially a charter rate that said "go away"

So on paper, its a rental.

Fully depreciated asset for a business to offset some taxes?  This is way past my financial understanding of how it works in real gritty detail, but if true, I get the concept... sort of.

We were next to one of those charters for a couple of nights up in Vancouver a few years ago.  Coal Harbor. (Harbour?) Travolta chartered her.  Big blue thing.  There was security, etc.  So somebody can afford it...

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Back In The Day boats could be an investment. We never sold a boat at a loss and my current boat could have been sold at a substantial profit at one point.

That was a long time ago and likely not ever happening again :( What we have now is an enormous fleet of boats slowly decaying and lacking anyone willing to spend $50,000 to turn a $20,000 boat into a $35,000 boat. Also note I can park an antique airplane for about $70/month while I decide what to do with it and a car for free behind the shed, but an old boat is not usually going to just sit someplace for free or even close to free, except for the ones that get anchored in "zombie cove", the registration numbers removed, and the owners never to be seen again.

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4 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

As mentioned above, (some?) AC boats'd have to have the worst depreciation... imagine the depreciation on the Alinghi catamaran after, what, 3 races? Alinghi 5 : Challenge and Adventure

... what ever happened to her?

Was in Valencia marina couple of years ago and it was just sitting  there

Screenshot_20200728-203645.png

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5 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

As mentioned above, (some?) AC boats'd have to have the worst depreciation... imagine the depreciation on the Alinghi catamaran after, what, 3 races? Alinghi 5 : Challenge and Adventure

... what ever happened to her?

make that 2. and, afaik, it was still in valencia, abandoned at some parking lot by the harbor.

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7 hours ago, TUBBY said:

Closing down sale.

Sid has finally had to put the toys away and swallow the anchor,  a couple of years ago.  

The 90 would be about the last one left,  but I think the TP is still there for his grandson.

Pretty sure the TP got sold and is now sailing down in South Australia

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I’m thinking the Melges 40 guy should be looking at some of these to part out. At these prices you might actually get close to breaking even. Before having to dispose of a stripped 90’ hull :D

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On 7/27/2020 at 9:36 AM, C. Spackler said:

That was what I said, but the fuel economy on my Learjet has been killing me. 

 

That's nothing compared to the "sail economy" of a 100'er.  Dollars per mile?  Dollars per tack?  A 30-tack jib off of a TP52 in the Med is 10-cents on the dollar.

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There are some great buys out there for the Yachting Addicted. It does not matter what anyone else thinks, It is the joy and rush of owning a nice Yacht and Driving her to the limit while racing or just out for a nice powerful daysail/practice. Those were the days my friend...

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I would still rather have a performance sailboat that a wet snail long keel heavy pig, or a fat assed hobby horsing tub that must power until the wind gets above 10 knots, and is so unsatisfying that even then, I see them powering all over the BVI and between LA and Catalina on the most glorious sailing days.

Since you can't buy a new performance boat for reasonable money, I have been converting my Olson 40 into something that is very nice to sail AND cruise. Not done, but even the process is satisfyingly hard and expensive and time consuming work. The result is beautiful and enjoyable.

The thing that stopped me from going bigger was the loads and weight of things. I can easily lift my headsail with one hand, and hoist my main without a winch (I can't tension the luff, but I can hoist it). That is critical to be able to continue to sail even when the aches and pains of age interfere.

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30 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

85712F86-E777-4AAA-9D6C-C4B5A03BEC8B.jpeg

Ah yes the good ship Nybroo. I knew her well. 

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29 minutes ago, Alaris said:

Ah yes the good ship Nybroo. I knew her well. 

Sounds like it was sold to some Scandinavians and renamed. 

Or maybe named after the pony?

https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/nybroo

Located in Portsmouth Rhode island, her owner is now able to accept all offers for this ( still) very fast machine.

Asking $145,000

Lets all put $10 In and form a syndicate! 

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32 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

Sounds like it was sold to some Scandinavians and renamed. 

Or maybe named after the pony?

https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/nybroo

Located in Portsmouth Rhode island, her owner is now able to accept all offers for this ( still) very fast machine.

Asking $145,000

Lets all put $10 In and form a syndicate! 

I see a bare hull. Who’s putting in the money for the keel, rudder, rig, and sails? 

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1 hour ago, Alaris said:

I see a bare hull. Who’s putting in the money for the keel, rudder, rig, and sails? 

Don K. His check hasn’t cleared yet. 

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On 7/27/2020 at 11:40 AM, Cristoforo said:

I think this one may have been most expensive boat for  $/race actually completed. 

https://www.denisonyachtsales.com/yachts-for-sale/80-Custom-Andrews-80-2004-Portsmouth-Rhode-Island/7195236

I thought the keel fell off when they ran into something hard?

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On 7/27/2020 at 10:54 AM, Greyhound37 said:

This may be a record

Ragamuffin 2004 90'. Cost over $8 million US to build now $85,000.

They do as soon as they are rolled out of factory

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On 8/3/2020 at 1:17 PM, Cristoforo said:

85712F86-E777-4AAA-9D6C-C4B5A03BEC8B.jpeg

On 8/3/2020 at 2:45 PM, Alaris said:

I see a bare hull. Who’s putting in the money for the keel, rudder, rig, and sails? 

WTF is it??? the website was ???????????????????

 

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MW, that is Donnybrook. An Andrews 80.  A somewhat recent thread: 

 

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$/smiles you can't beat a trailerable boat. Mono or multi. If only because you don't have the marina fees...

Of course if you have a waterfront home with a dock you also don't have marina fees and can therefore rationalize almost any boat.

See, it's all relative. Can you tell I'm not a millionaire?

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