Greyhound37

do big race boats depreciate?

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On 1/5/2021 at 10:26 AM, Meat Wad said:

I guess for 120k up front it looks like a deal. Dockage and sails will kill you though. Distance racing looks to be the only option.

I saw a big Trawler out in the desert that someone probably got for cheap and now it is a house with a nautical theme.

 

23 hours ago, billy backstay said:

"Ragamuffin 90, a 2004 Dubois 90, is now exclusively for sale with our team on Sydney Harbour. Built by McConaghy Boats to state of the art specifications at a total cost in excess of US$8 million"

How could anyone with half a brain think that boats appreciate???

 

I wonder how much you could sell off stuff that comes with the boat?

Then truck the fucker out to the desert of AUS, dig a big ditch and put the thing in it. Now you have a nice earthen home with a constant temp and bugs won't eat it.

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9 hours ago, dave-j said:

But... the major point I wanted to make is back when I had a partner and we wanted relatively recent race boats in the 40' range to compete in local racing, we took huge advantage of the practice of dumping race boats for cheap.  that way, virtually all of our budget could go into maintenance, storage, sails and campaigning costs.  We had three custom made boats 40-42' over the years and had a ball winning at a fraction of the spend of most of our competition.

Or to put it another way, the taxpayer funded a big chunk of the capital cost of your used raceboats.  Nice help if you can get it.

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10 hours ago, dave-j said:

image.png.5f15f1cc6658c66b6618c6e310bea9eb.png

This graphic isn't really right.  A billion is 1,000 millions.  Each of those pallets is about $700 million.  Each of the yellow straps is about 10 x 10 of the $1 million pile.  Seven straps per pallet = $700 million.  So about 1.5 pallets = $ 1 billion.

Which actually just begs the question when did a Billion stop being a Billion. I was always taught a billion was short for Million2 (1 000 000 000 000) and a Trillion was Million3 

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That's the old British definition.

It's been obsolete as long as I can remember.

A billion is a thousand million

A trillion is a thousand billion

and so on.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

That's the old British definition.

It's been obsolete as long as I can remember.

A billion is a thousand million

A trillion is a thousand billion

and so on.

I'm fully aware of that it just feels like the "new term" only became the fashionable accepted definition after we started getting "Billionaires".  It seems like there was an unspoken consensus that a million million was just too much and we needed to make the goal easier to reach.  You know what they say, "the first billion is the hard one".

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13 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

 

Then truck the fucker out to the desert of AUS, dig a big ditch and put the thing in it. Now you have a nice earthen home with a constant temp and bugs won't eat it.

Mount wind turbine on mast track and run it up for some free power.

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8 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

I'm fully aware of that it just feels like the "new term" only became the fashionable accepted definition after we started getting "Billionaires".  It seems like there was an unspoken consensus that a million million was just too much and we needed to make the goal easier to reach.  You know what they say, "the first billion is the hard one".

Much longer ago than that.

I lived in England 60 years ago and that was the only place I ever heard the million million definition.

AFAIK it was never used elsewhere - not even in the colonies.

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$1 Million dollars in $100 bills is a stack about 8 ft tall. That picture is silly. 

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36 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Much longer ago than that.

I lived in England 60 years ago and that was the only place I ever heard the million million definition.

AFAIK it was never used elsewhere - not even in the colonies.

The UK killed it off in the 70's  Ted Heath got fed up with the confusion caused by US vs UK billions.

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4 hours ago, Mark Set said:

$1 Million dollars in $100 bills is a stack about 8 ft tall. That picture is silly. 

When I worked for a major bank I was in the "Cash Cage" at main branch once. That was in the days of $1 bills.

There was a pallet of bundled cash of all denominations up to $100 on the floor - probably 3' high. I asked what it was worth and the senior guy eyeballed it for a minute and said "probably $5 million".

Cash is extremely bulky - those movies where they buy the ton of coke with an attache case of cash are ridiculous.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Cash is extremely bulky - those movies where they buy the ton of coke with an attache case of cash are ridiculous.

Yes and no. Certainly for a tonne. Cocaine is $50 million per wholesale tonne...half a tonne of 100’s. When I withdraw one of my millions it fits in a full size attaché case: 10 kg. There used to be an online calculator. Probably illegal now.

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Two Legged says the taxpayers funded my boat purchases??  How? Seems more like we took advantage of the market quickly depreciating race boats.  Nobody got a tax break! 

On 1/7/2021 at 12:50 AM, TwoLegged said:

Or to put it another way, the taxpayer funded a big chunk of the capital cost of your used raceboats.  Nice help if you can get it.

 

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27 minutes ago, dave-j said:

Two Legged says the taxpayers funded my boat purchases??  How? Seems more like we took advantage of the market quickly depreciating race boats.  Nobody got a tax break! 

On 1/7/2021 at 5:50 AM, TwoLegged said:

Or to put it another way, the taxpayer funded a big chunk of the capital cost of your used raceboats.  Nice help if you can get it.

 

Dave, AIUI, the previous owner got a tax break for donating the boat.  So the taxpayer helped fund the depreciation.

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On 1/7/2021 at 7:11 AM, SCARECROW said:

Which actually just begs the question when did a Billion stop being a Billion. I was always taught a billion was short for Million2 (1 000 000 000 000) and a Trillion was Million3 

In Spanish a billion is one million millions...

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5 hours ago, chuso007 said:

In Spanish a billion is one million millions...

That it.  I’m moving to Spain!

I guess you don’t get many Spanish Billionaires then?

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44 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

That it.  I’m moving to Spain!

I guess you don’t get many Spanish Billionaires then?

Well, Amancio Ortega (Inditex) is the richest here (77.000 millions) I think the second and third richest are his exwife and daughter...

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23 minutes ago, Zonker said:

what is a thousand million called? 

If you have to ask you can’t afford it!

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

what is a thousand million called? 

This is the key question. I always thought the UK billion definition of 10^12 was ridiculous since they didn't seem to have have word for 10^9, other than "a thousand million". And it's not about billionaires, even in the 70's you needed these numbers to talk about government and corporate finances, not to mention in science. 

By the way, a lot of people have trouble visualizing a million, or lots of other numbers for that matter. Here's a nice way to think about a million: It's roughly the number of holes in the screen on a screen door.  

Should there be a new SA thread, "mocking ads for race boats we actually could afford to buy but totally not afford to maintain"? Maybe this is that thread. As with a friend I occasionally crew for who considered buying, I think it was Mad Max, here in Vancouver, but ended up buying an F18 instead, I would heartily support this discussion.   

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I could have bought Kialoa III a couple of years back and actually gave some thought to it but the cost of that new jib totally woke me up. :D

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16 hours ago, Zonker said:

what is a thousand million called? 

milliard

but as noted before Ted Heath made this obsolete in the uk in the early 70's

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This is a millyard. Allen Millyard is an insanely gifted builder of custom motorcycles. He builds his own engines.

 

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59 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

milliard

I think that’s only used in German, Dutch and, I think, the Scandinavian languages. With every three zeros here it goes:

thousand - million - milliard - billion - billiard - trillion - trilliard - quadrillion - quadrilliard - shitload - shitloadiard... 

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In case anyone is interested... In India they have lakh and crore Rupees... A Lakh Rupee is one hundred thousand rupees and a crore rupee is ten million rupees.

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Well, the Rupee is worth less than $0.02 CDN so...

Time for a bigger unit or a serious devaluation.

"Yeah, this boats a bargain - only 18 million cents".

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On 1/5/2021 at 10:26 AM, Meat Wad said:

I saw a big Trawler out in the desert that someone probably got for cheap and now it is a house with a nautical theme.

How about this? Desert Lobster, Mina Nevada.

Looks like it didn't work out.

00b27892-be43-433e-b73f-4377719ecc00.jpg

Screenshot_20210109-235335.png

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8 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

"Yeah, this boats a bargain - only 18 million cents".

Like the glory days of the Italian Lira, where a coffee cost five grand and a last-legs banger of a car cost a million.

I don't think that the Italian psyche has ever recovered from the average wage no longer being a million a week

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On 1/9/2021 at 2:23 AM, Zonker said:

what is a thousand million called? 

"Un Gigaeuro" :P

People speak of "k€" and of "M€", I am not sure why we don't also use the SI prefixes for the bigger numbers. I Find the billions, trillions, lakhs, Crores etc confusing as their meaning can depend of the context and/or some knowledge of the culture of those using it.

 

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1 minute ago, Panoramix said:

Un Gigaeuro :P

People speak of "k€" and of "M€", I am not sure why we don't also use the SI prefixes for the bigger numbers. I Find the billions, trillions, lakhs, Crores etc confusing as their meaning can depend of the context and/or some knowledge of the culture of those using it.

 

I like the idea, but do you really think that the average guy in the street is going to work out SI prefixes? There is an SNL sketch in there somewhere. The used car dealer in Zimbabwe asking for 1.299 x 10^23 Zdollars or whatever.

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2 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

I like the idea, but do you really think that the average guy in the street is going to work out SI prefixes? There is an SNL sketch in there somewhere. The used car dealer in Zimbabwe asking for 1.299 x 10^23 Zdollars or whatever.

I can see your point and the tabloid would be full of "Who are these technocrats telling us how to count ?" kind of stuff...

But I don't think that the average guy in the street is that dumb, they already know kilo and mega, they would just need to learn Giga and may be Tera once every 10 years when Banks completely ruin the economy and big salvage plans are put in place! And actually they already know these names for hard disk drives.

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21 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

I can see your point and the tabloid would be full of "Who are these technocrats telling us how to count ?" kind of stuff...

But I don't think that the average guy in the street is that dumb, they already know kilo and mega, they would just need to learn Giga and may be Tera once every 10 years when Banks completely ruin the economy and big salvage plans are put in place! And actually they already know these names for hard disk drives.

First of all, if you don't think the average guy in the street is that dumb you haven't met the average guy in the street. After you meet him, remember that half the population is even dumber than that.

Banks don't cause hyperinflation. Governments cause hyperinflation by printing money. Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon. See Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Argentina, Turkey, Germany (between wars), etc. etc. 

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1 hour ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

First of all, if you don't think the average guy in the street is that dumb you haven't met the average guy in the street. After you meet him, remember that half the population is even dumber than that.

Banks don't cause hyperinflation. Governments cause hyperinflation by printing money. Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon. See Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Argentina, Turkey, Germany (between wars), etc. etc. 

Seriously I sometimes work in one of the most deprived suburb of Paris and it makes me very hopeful in human nature and people abilities, most people can grok pretty complex stuff when you take the time to explain.

As for the T€, I was more thinking about the rescue packages, it was a bit in jest to say that a T€ is quite a lot of money... I don't think that this is the right place to start a debate on monetary policies but AFAIU banks do indeed create money thanks to debts they issue (they don't need to have 100% of the cash to sell you a mortgage) .  Anyway this is how I understood things after the sky fell on my head in 2008 and I don't do Political Anarchy.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

 AFAIU banks do indeed create money thanks to debts they issue (they don't need to have 100% of the cash to sell you a mortgage) .

Wrong.

That was one of my PhD microbiologist fathers favourite "understandings" of money.

I think the misconception comes in when people don't understand the difference between a banks assets, liabilities and their capital ratios

Banks can't lend money they don't have - If they could, inflation would be a sight to behold.

Only the central government can "create" money.

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Wrong.

That was one of my PhD microbiologist fathers favourite "understandings" of money.

I think the misconception comes in when people don't understand the difference between a banks assets, liabilities and their capital ratios

Banks can't lend money they don't have - If they could, inflation would be a sight to behold.

Only the central government can "create" money.

Well show me how this is wrong.

When I first heard this (it was via people who had been to occupy Bristol just after the 2008 crisis) I thought this is fishy and can't possibly be right and is probably some hoax. So being with a scientific background, curious of the subject  as at the time I was really trying to understand how the construction industry got completely annihilated by something which wasn't our fault, I tried to disprove the hypothesis. I didn't manage to despite reading extensively on the matter with an open mind. In my quest, I even found a statement on the website of the bank of England corroborating the hypothesis, this is when I started to change my mind. Whenever you ask people why this is wrong, the reply you get is along the lines "That's not how it works" or "You don't understand" but I never got "Go and read this paper" with said paper giving compelling reason (it was always stuff written without rigour nor easy to verify assertions or sometimes even like an Op Ed) or "If you look there you will see that this is wrong for X, Y, and Z reasons" kind of answer. So being somebody biased toward the scientific method, I think that it is probably right as if it was wrong some knowledgeable people from the financial sector who would be benefiting in a way or another from the system would be quick to provide rational explanations explaining why.

Here is evidence put out by "positive money" : https://positivemoney.org/publications/ which is a British non profit campaigning for a fairer money system. If you have just a few minutes watch this :

 

If you have lot of time, try to disprove them, I tried, I didn't manage to, if you do so, you will get my esteem!

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This may no longer be the right thread. But let me try with this bridge:
Most socio-economic issues are caused by various human trials and errors in coordination. Markets are one solution, central banking, another, etc...

So why do we not see more partnerships owning race boats? A 40-70' mono racer takes 7-15 crew to run. Who are all these people? Why is it hard to find 5-8 partners to spread the purchase and running costs? 

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a British non profit campaigning for a fairer money system

Oh yeah - I'll take their word for it. :rolleyes:

My wife & I have a combined 68 years in a major multinational bank - we know how it works. They have to have liabilities and capital to balance their assets. Their capital has to be a minimum percentage of their liabilities as well. They can't just make up bookkeeping entries to loan out. Maybe it's different for Deutsche Bank, HSBC and the other sleazy Euro banks but not here.

I've had this discussion several times over the years and I'm not gonna do it anymore - you believe what you want to believe.

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14 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

This may no longer be the right thread. But let me try with this bridge:
Most socio-economic issues are caused by various human trials and errors in coordination. Markets are one solution, central banking, another, etc...

So why do we not see more partnerships owning race boats? A 40-70' mono racer takes 7-15 crew to run. Who are all these people? Why is it hard to find 5-8 partners to spread the purchase and running costs? 

Because a big part of it is a dick swinging contest. More so the bigger the boat gets.

"My boat" is a very big deal to a lot of people.

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Oh yeah - I'll take their word for it.

Did I tell you that I have a scientific background? Let say that shooting the messenger is not the most efficient way to convince people like me. I am sure that back in time, some were talking of Galileo in similar terms!

2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Maybe it's different for Deutsche Bank, HSBC and the other sleazy Euro banks but not here.

I don't know who is the sleaziest but I remember my life turning to shit in 2009 thank to North American financial institutions and their subprime mortgages.

2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

They can't just make up bookkeeping entries to loan out. 

I don't think that I've claimed this. My layman understanding of modern banking is that loans are contracts that are recorded in the bank's books as an asset balanced by a liability that the customer can then spend, hence the "new money" while the loan is running. In the UK more than 95% of the "money" in circulation is from this source, thus If we all slow down our borrowing like we did in 2008, the economy is starved of "cash" (which isn't actual cash but bank liabilities balanced by a promise to repay later that has an accounting value) and idiots like me who work for the physical economy - which is highly dependent on people having "cash" to spend - end up in trouble for no physical reason.

The day I understood this I felt better, there is a running joke amongst French engineers, 3 different engineers build 3 different bridges.

  1. The first one is from a top uni, he builds a clever bridge, the bridge falls down but after inspecting the rubbles, he understands why
  2. The second one is from a middle tier uni, he builds a bridge, the bridge falls down and he doesn't understand why
  3. The third one is from a less prestigious and more practical uni, he builds a bridge, he's not entirely sure why but the bridge stands up

So here you go in the span of a few years, on my understanding of the randomness of the financial system, I felt like I evolved from engineer 3, to engineer 2 and then to engineer 1! I also understood that these crisis are inevitable (no cash, no economy) as when the banker loose confidence the physical economy can't function as there isn't enough money left (which isn't actual money but bank liabilities) to grease its cogs.

2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I've had this discussion several times over the years and I'm not gonna do it anymore - you believe what you want to believe.

I thank you for letting me in my ignorance! At this stage I think that it is better if we stop this discussion as I struggle to keep smiling after being taken for an idiot too many times.

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39 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

My layman understanding of modern banking is that loans are contracts that are recorded in the bank's books as an asset balanced by a liability that the customer can then spend, hence the "new money" while the loan is running. In the UK more than 95% of the "money" in circulation is from this source, thus If we all slow down our borrowing like we did in 2008, the economy is starved of "cash" (which isn't actual cash but bank liabilities balanced by a promise to repay later that has an accounting value) and idiots like me who work for the physical economy - which is highly dependent on people having "cash" to spend - end up in trouble for no physical reason.

Start out by learning about the definitions of money supply: M1, M2 and M3 in particular. Once you have done that let me know, and we can go from there. Pro tip: hyper inflation is not caused by the kind of money that banks create (which is limited by reserve ratios) but by the kind that governments create through deficit spending colloquially known as printing money. This is what debases the currency not bank lending. If you are of a scientific bent you can also look at all the known instances of hyperinflation. These are called "data."

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Uhhhh, just been avoiding responding, of course not, they appreciate, WTF is the matter with you all???  Worth more every day in an alternative universe.

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3 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

the kind that governments create through deficit spending colloquially known as printing money.

It's now known as "quantitative easing" and has been since at least the 2008 crash.

Get with the program.;)

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8 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Start out by learning about the definitions of money supply: M1, M2 and M3 in particular. Once you have done that let me know, and we can go from there. Pro tip: hyper inflation is not caused by the kind of money that banks create (which is limited by reserve ratios) but by the kind that governments create through deficit spending colloquially known as printing money. This is what debases the currency not bank lending. If you are of a scientific bent you can also look at all the known instances of hyperinflation. These are called "data."

I did read about this, at the time it took me quite a bit of effort before I could write about the subject concisely like in the paragraph you quoted. A good physicist will go through the principles of theories that are truly complicated with lay people using simple words whereas in finance people don't seem to be able to do so, most of them seem to enjoy tortuous statements littered with jargon thus I had to make the effort to read about this stuff whereas I only wanted a diagram or a few paragraphs explaining accurately the broad principles.

By the way I am not worried by hyperinflation and I also I didn't really want to start this conversation, my initial T€ comment was just a dig at the quantity of cash that proved necessary to bail out various banks after the 2008 crisis. Hyperinflation is indeed scary but at the moment (and this started in the 90s in Japan), central banks seem to need to constantly inject money into the system through QE or other methods to keep the economy alive. That's the opposite of what happens in the case of an hyperinflation scenario where central banks try to reduce the money supply to reign in inflation.

The Mx values where x is a number don't mean exactly the same thing from place to place (why on earth can't they agree on one definition? you can speak to a Russian, Chinese or German engineer and a Newton will still be a Newton), when I was studying this I was living in the UK, so I was mostly reading stuff published by the Bank of England and they have divided money supply in just two, narrow money (M0) and broad money (M4). I like the Brits' love of simplicity! So what I called "cash" or "new money" above is M4 money. M0 / M4 < 5% thus the Brits are "renting to the banks" 95% of the money they use.

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On 1/8/2021 at 3:56 PM, chuso007 said:

In Spanish a billion is one million millions...

in portuguese, a billion is one thousand millions.

or, in mathese, 1billion=1x10^9

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Pano, my admittedly simplified layman's understanding of the banking system is pretty closely aligned with yours. I would only add that there is an important distinction between the motives of banks and bankers. I will leave it at that rather than add to an already overly drifted topic but, suffice to say, I really despise bankers.

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On 1/8/2021 at 3:56 PM, chuso007 said:

In Spanish a billion is one million millions...

and in portuguese, one million millions would be a trillion...

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2 hours ago, Trovão said:

and in portuguese, one million millions would be a trillion...

Probably a hangover from when the Escudo was worth 1/2 a cent.

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funniest thing I've seen currency wise  is argentina 1988 , 10000 peso notes with a redline through 3 zeroes and annuldo written across it, below this was the word Austral..... one way to tackle inflation, had to ask at a bank if they were genuine... which they were, wished I kept a couple now, from memory the same was done to other denominations too

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17 hours ago, 167149 said:

funniest thing I've seen currency wise  is argentina 1988 , 10000 peso notes with a redline through 3 zeroes and annuldo written across it, below this was the word Austral..... one way to tackle inflation, had to ask at a bank if they were genuine... which they were, wished I kept a couple now, from memory the same was done to other denominations too

it also happened in brazil, in the hyper-inflation era of the 1980's... cut 3 zeros and called "new"...

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My sister lived in Italy before the Euro.

The Lira was like that - people were virtually millionaires every month when they got paid.

The really weird part was they still had change.

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46 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

My sister lived in Italy before the Euro.

The Lira was like that - people were virtually millionaires every month when they got paid.

The really weird part was they still had change.

They talk in thousands and millions in Colombia and they have 500 pesos coins! (about 0.15€). They were saving in USD but then in the early 2010s the pesos became strong against the dollar so lot of people lost money!!!

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Had a friend who worked in Zimbabwe in the 80's and he said it was best to buy the first round as the drinks got more expensive by the hour

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I'm not really even sure "depreciate" is the right word to describe the loss in value.  More like "write-off."

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On 7/27/2020 at 4:04 PM, toad said:

the short answer is that most people have no idea now much a billion is, people who play with 100 foot race boats make more in interest that day than the boat cost 

 

CYOpXsvWkAAbhNl.jpg.11258a528aea95186f1bab7a0ea7e7ee.jpg

 

 

a million seconds is about 11 days,  a billion seconds in around 31 years.

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33 minutes ago, Great Red Shark said:

a million seconds is about 11 days,  a billion seconds in around 31 years.

thanks, sort of puts things in perspective

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3 hours ago, Great Red Shark said:

a million seconds is about 11 days,  a billion seconds in around 31 years.

That means 209 billion - Musk's net worth - is about 6500 years

Who will be the first trillionaire? (31,000 years)

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On 1/8/2021 at 1:17 PM, TwoLegged said:

Dave, AIUI, the previous owner got a tax break for donating the boat.  So the taxpayer helped fund the depreciation.

Ah, but we purchased two directly from the owners.  They weren't donated.  One was, so yeah, I guess so, but it's no different than donating a car to Kars for Kids or to your local PBS station.  It benefits non-profits.  Anyway, as said, two of the three were not donation boats, just victims of rapid depreciation.

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