alifish

C&C 30 and Farr 280 - What happened

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Posted (edited)

Both these boats were pretty cool in 2016, but neither survived as current viable designs. I know that C&C went under, but what happened to the Farr, how many were built? Was in Newport late last summer and two C&Cs were on their trailers looking like they hadn't been sailed in quite a while. There's like 3-4 C&Cs for sale.. Was the completion too tough for somebody to pick up  the C&C molds and continue on?? Was JBoats too hard to compete with? Granted each of the designs were substantially different but each had pulses:(! Seems like these were the last of a breed?

Edited by alifish
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my impression is that were too short. there really aren't any competitive 28's (and no the far east 28 is not great either). the 30 same thing - they just won't go with melges 32's or even ft 10's. no doubt mark mills will say that's not true, but look at the race results, not great. i remember telling mark to make the thing 32'-33'. nope. oh well. and btw, when was the last fast farr boat? those guys lost the plot a number of years ago...

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I don’t think J/Boats was the threat. They don’t really play in that arena except for the old and short-lived (but fast) 90, until the 88 came along. And that’s still a pretty different design brief IMO.

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The Cape 31 is slowly getting some spread, as well as 13 or so in Cape Town there is a boat in the States and one in the Hamble, with interest from Hong Kong and NZL. It is a huge improvement on the C&C 30 and the US boat has a larger main and no 1 headsail to optimize its light weather performance.

https://mills-design.com/project/cape-31/

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At the time the "C&C" 30 came out, and I used quotes because it really has no relation to C&C except someone bought the logo, I predicted it would not succeed. The buyers of the previous C&C 30s would not be interested at all, the new 30 is a totally different kind of boat. The people that would buy the new 30 were and are IMHO a fairly fixed size pool of sailors. Any new boat in this category is mostly scavenging buyers from some other sporty-boat class. The market is only so big and neither the 30 or the 285 were able to suck enough buyers out of the other classes.

Also at least for the C&C no one wants to be the first one in a OD class that dies and the financial future of the Barely Careful operation was never all that certain.

 

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Just now, kent_island_sailor said:

At the time the "C&C" 30 came out, and I used quotes because it really has no relation to C&C except someone bought the logo, I predicted it would not succeed. The buyers of the previous C&C 30s would not be interested at all, the new 30 is a totally different kind of boat. The people that would buy the new 30 were and are IMHO a fairly fixed size pool of sailors. Any new boat in this category is mostly scavenging buyers from some other sporty-boat class. The market is only so big and neither the 30 or the 285 were able to suck enough buyers out of the other classes.

I heard it was because potential buyer's wives didnt like the head accommodations

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To make up for the huge amount of wetted surface area, the C&C30 had miniscule foils that made them incredibly hard to control for an average helmsman or crew. This, along with poor restrictions on professional sailors, high campaign costs, and a couple of well-monied owners who committed to outspend anyone in order to win, meant that the barriers to entry were instantly too high for most owners and drove down interest. 

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18 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

with poor restrictions on professional sailors, high campaign costs, and a couple of well-monied owners who committed to outspend anyone in order to win,

This^^^

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11 hours ago, Major Tom said:

The Cape 31 is slowly getting some spread, as well as 13 or so in Cape Town there is a boat in the States and one in the Hamble, with interest from Hong Kong and NZL. It is a huge improvement on the C&C 30 and the US boat has a larger main and no 1 headsail to optimize its light weather performance.

https://mills-design.com/project/cape-31/

Is the small foils/wetted area problem similar to the C&C on the Cape31? Didn't really mean to compare the J/Boats to the C&C or the Farr280 vastly different boats. Total different customer!

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Went on a C&C30 when they first launched. A close friend wanted a partner to just race the boat. Pics looked good, write-ups piqued interest.

Absolutely no way.

It is just like a dinghy, with all the trouble of ownership of a large yacht.

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1 hour ago, alifish said:

Is the small foils/wetted area problem similar to the C&C on the Cape31? Didn't really mean to compare the J/Boats to the C&C or the Farr280 vastly different boats. Total different customer!

No, there does not appear to be any control issues, the class is a huge improvement on the C&C as the boat was designed without the towing width restrictions and was optimized to perform in Cape Town conditions, anyone who has watched the inshore race during the Volvo stopover should know exactly what I am talking about, so control was obviously a critical part of the design, the boat also has more volume in the bow which gets it up onto the plane nice and early and eliminates the nose down situation the 30s seemed to often end up in.

20307AAA-DFE6-46BC-85F1-19B9338FD1CA.jpeg

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51 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

No, there does not appear to be any control issues, the class is a huge improvement on the C&C as the boat was designed without the towing width restrictions and was optimized to perform in Cape Town conditions, anyone who has watched the inshore race during the Volvo stopover should know exactly what I am talking about, so control was obviously a critical part of the design, the boat also has more volume in the bow which gets it up onto the plane nice and early and eliminates the nose down situation the 30s seemed to often end up in.

20307AAA-DFE6-46BC-85F1-19B9338FD1CA.jpeg

sails well in chop huh, never had seen this!

wouldn't do well in the double damned

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Here is the problem. Sailed the CC30 when it first dropped, bow keep dipping and it wanted to trip and the owner felt it right away and said no thanks.  

Compare the 30 to everything out there before, Henderson 30, Melges 30/32, FT10, etc, and it is overpriced, and rates slower than the same boats that came before, Sure OD cool, but why bother spending the dollars when dollars/fun just wasn't there. That and you had to take the boat everywhere to do OD.

280 had similar problems. Cool new boat, however, you could just buy a Farr 30 and still have more fun for cheaper.

That being said, maybe it is a good thing. That so many boats from before their time are still awesome. However, as prices keep going up, and people keep having less dollars to spend, we will continue to see the same trends.

Just my thoughts, I am often quite wrong in life.

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4 hours ago, Major Tom said:

the nose down situation the 30s seemed to often end up in.

20307AAA-DFE6-46BC-85F1-19B9338FD1CA.jpeg

AAHHH-OOOOOO-Gaaahh!    Dive! DIVE! DIVE!

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4 hours ago, trimfast said:

Here is the problem. Sailed the CC30 when it first dropped, bow keep dipping and it wanted to trip and the owner felt it right away and said no thanks.  

Compare the 30 to everything out there before, Henderson 30, Melges 30/32, FT10, etc, and it is overpriced, and rates slower than the same boats that came before, Sure OD cool, but why bother spending the dollars when dollars/fun just wasn't there. That and you had to take the boat everywhere to do OD.

280 had similar problems. Cool new boat, however, you could just buy a Farr 30 and still have more fun for cheaper.

That being said, maybe it is a good thing. That so many boats from before their time are still awesome. However, as prices keep going up, and people keep having less dollars to spend, we will continue to see the same trends.

Just my thoughts, I am often quite wrong in life.

Perhaps I am looking at the half-empty side of this equation but I see it as a huge disappointment that these boats built as much as 30 years ago are as fast or faster than what is available today. There’s no excuse for a new racing 30 footer to come out that is slower than a Mumm 30 or Henderson 30. None. Those boats weren’t perfect but we shouldn’t be seeing boats that are demonstrably slower.
 

New designers and builders should be fixing and tweaking what those boats got wrong, and doing it at the same speed or faster. Especially at the price points they are asking. Otherwise, for your $150-200k you can literally replace everything on a M30 or H30 and have the most expensive bottom job on the course and have a lot of change left over. 

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37 minutes ago, Alaris said:

Perhaps I am looking at the half-empty side of this equation but I see it as a huge disappointment that these boats built as much as 30 years ago are as fast or faster than what is available today. There’s no excuse for a new racing 30 footer to come out that is slower than a Mumm 30 or Henderson 30. None. Those boats weren’t perfect but we shouldn’t be seeing boats that are demonstrably slower.
 

New designers and builders should be fixing and tweaking what those boats got wrong, and doing it at the same speed or faster. Especially at the price points they are asking. Otherwise, for your $150-200k you can literally replace everything on a M30 or H30 and have the most expensive bottom job on the course and have a lot of change left over. 

To be fair, they tried to achieve different goals. Legal trailering without permits can really hamper a boat design. 

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In that  bow down shot Of the C&C it must be humping! We sail in 28-30 and never came close to that other then digging into the next wave.

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I was trimming main on the boat in the picture. Was blowing 20-24 knots and we were doing 18+ knots. 28-30kt puff hit us with a big lift.  My self and the A sail trimmer dumped the sails but with the lift probably just made it worse. That picture is I think the first of three. We went almost to a 45 deg bow down angle. Water was up to the boom. The kite finally blew out and the boat then fell to leeward. Maybe someone has the series of photos. It happens in Newport just off the harbor entrance.

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It appears that all the recent 30-foot one-design classes have died soon after they were developed - M32, F28, CC 30. 
This is due to a number of factors, but I think the primary issue is that the target owner for this entire group is relatively small and they often come from other one design groups.  When a few lose interest, the fleet dies quickly.  With high operating costs and a huge time commitment, there is reason to support a class if it is not meeting the owner's immediate need for Grand Prix style sailing.    

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There was quite an active  thread about the C&C 30's demise a year and half ago for inquiring minds: 

 

 

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21 hours ago, jackolantern said:

And that was being sailed by a heavily professional crew 

prob needed even heavier guys 

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So it sounds like the guys that owned Extreme were the heavies, laying down the cash, promoting the class, going to all the races, doing well (gee wonder how doing all the races and doing well correlates?). Wonder what happened to that one? Can't remember the two that were sitting on their trailers at Newport. Prices for used are all over the map. Might be a halfway good PHRF boat??

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1 hour ago, alifish said:

So it sounds like the guys that owned Extreme were the heavies, laying down the cash, promoting the class, going to all the races, doing well (gee wonder how doing all the races and doing well correlates?). Wonder what happened to that one? Can't remember the two that were sitting on their trailers at Newport. Prices for used are all over the map. Might be a halfway good PHRF boat??

There it is, only took 25 posts to blame Extreme! Been waiting for that. I can tell you that the top 3-5 boats in that fleet all spent the same or even more then Extreme per regatta.

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1 hour ago, Peacefrog said:

There it is, only took 25 posts to blame Extreme! Been waiting for that. I can tell you that the top 3-5 boats in that fleet all spent the same or even more then Extreme per regatta.

This sounds vaguely familiar to the GL70 fleet. For years, Terry kept that fleet running. I’ll just use one example. The last year we hosted the fleet in Sheboygan, I don’t even want to know what it cost him. Before the racing even started, I got screwed over by a boat who won’t be named as a bottom diver. Evo threw me a bunch of extra money to make up for it. Then day 1 of racing broke stuff. Since I also worked for them but raced on a different boat, I was nominated to go ask for borrowed parts. I asked for a heavy #1 jib for a sled, you know, just the usual spare part. Another boat asked for a spinnaker pole. Not exactly small requests. 
 

Everyone sailed fully equipped the next day. It was also the first time the sled I was on ever won a bouy race. Worth its weight in gold. I have nothing but absolute respect for the high dollar programs that support everyone else!

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

Everyone sailed fully equipped the next day. It was also the first time the sled I was on ever won a bouy race. Worth its weight in gold. I have nothing but absolute respect for the high dollar programs that support everyone else!

Every boat has a Chance?

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14 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Every boat has a Chance?

Nailed it in one shot!  Happiest I’ve ever seen that owner on the water. 
 

I’m the guy at the mast jumping a halyard.  (No, that’s not the borrowed sail)

D1BC286E-619F-45BE-9967-9FC47A7625CB.jpeg

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13 hours ago, Peacefrog said:

There it is, only took 25 posts to blame Extreme! Been waiting for that. I can tell you that the top 3-5 boats in that fleet all spent the same or even more then Extreme per regatta.

Extreme tends to be extremely obnoxious about everything they do. 

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16 hours ago, Peacefrog said:

There it is, only took 25 posts to blame Extreme! Been waiting for that. I can tell you that the top 3-5 boats in that fleet all spent the same or even more then Extreme per regatta.

You’ll note I specifically did not call out the E2 guys. They were very self aware and concerned about their impact on the class.

The team with two boats to have their own in-house training camp operation was certainly an experience.

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On 7/31/2020 at 1:47 PM, Peacefrog said:

There it is, only took 25 posts to blame Extreme! Been waiting for that. I can tell you that the top 3-5 boats in that fleet all spent the same or even more then Extreme per regatta.

Sheezh Peachfrog, unbunch your panties, I wasn't blaming anybody...all I did was point out that it appeared to an innocent bystander they did quite a bit to further the class! Frankly I could care less if they spent more! Obviously spending more doesn't always equate to winning more,  but sailing more (participating in more races, weather ya win or lose, and training a ton!) does!

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On 7/31/2020 at 2:47 PM, Peacefrog said:

I can tell you that the top 3-5 boats in that fleet all spent the same or even more then Extreme per regatta.

This statement probably says more than any other here.

Once the top guys in a class have support tenders that cost twice what the actual boat does, I believe your class has lost it's way.  

The Farr 280 seemed like a rad boat but holy cow, that's a lot of lines and hydraulics for a 28 foot boat.  And it doesn't seem any more fun to sail than a 20 year old Farr 30. 

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On 7/31/2020 at 11:52 AM, alifish said:

 Prices for used are all over the map. Might be a halfway good PHRF boat??

As was mentioned upthread, the C&C 30 is a very difficult boat to sail.  An amateur crew is going to have a hard time getting that boat to sail to its rating.

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On 7/31/2020 at 4:47 PM, Peacefrog said:

There it is, only took 25 posts to blame Extreme! Been waiting for that. I can tell you that the top 3-5 boats in that fleet all spent the same or even more then Extreme per regatta.

Yup...waiting for that one. Dan was a huge promoter of the class. In fact, if memory serves he brings a great amount of enthusiasm to any OD class he sails in (and I mean that as a complement). 

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An interesting thing that hasn't been discussed here is most of these 30ft boats have gained zero traction outside the US or their local fleet.

Might be as with smaller fleet sizes people want boats that can rate OK to a measurement formula and a 30ft ULW flyer just will not!!  

Also not great boat offshore here!!

Mumm 30's had some traction here and do OK on IRC but I think they were popular due to how cheap you could get one, Melges 32 similar (although they suck on IRC).

MC38 has a small OD fleet in Sydney where the $$ are but it's small sister, the MC31, was a flop from what I've heard.

Compare that to something like the Jeanneau 349, probably around the same $$ and around 25 of them on the eastern seaboard of Oz!!!

Or for 1/10th the $$ you can buy a Viper 640 (around 30 in Oz I think) and have just as much fun!!

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22 minutes ago, mezaire said:

An interesting thing that hasn't been discussed here is most of these 30ft boats have gained zero traction outside the US or their local fleet.

Might be as with smaller fleet sizes people want boats that can rate OK to a measurement formula and a 30ft ULW flyer just will not!!  

Also not great boat offshore here!!

Mumm 30's had some traction here and do OK on IRC but I think they were popular due to how cheap you could get one, Melges 32 similar (although they suck on IRC).

MC38 has a small OD fleet in Sydney where the $$ are but it's small sister, the MC31, was a flop from what I've heard.

Compare that to something like the Jeanneau 349, probably around the same $$ and around 25 of them on the eastern seaboard of Oz!!!

Or for 1/10th the $$ you can buy a Viper 640 (around 30 in Oz I think) and have just as much fun!!

That’ll always be a problem in that size range. It’s a pretty small pool of the wealthy folks looking for genuine, pure, racing. Most want a great big fuck off boat to show off. 

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Cos they don't plane to windward & don't have a fridge!

Either or is acceptable.

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On 8/4/2020 at 4:32 PM, Expat Canuck said:

As was mentioned upthread, the C&C 30 is a very difficult boat to sail.  An amateur crew is going to have a hard time getting that boat to sail to its rating.

Lets see how many sink tonight on a coastal race with 30 knots and 6 foot waves forecast

2 are entered 

https://yachtscoring.com/emenu.cfm?eID=13009

 

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On 8/5/2020 at 11:12 AM, SF Woody Sailor said:

If you want a serious 30 foot one design racing boat that you can trailer why wouldn't you get an Etchells?

Because fast is fun

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6 hours ago, Swanno said:

Because fast is fun

Good one design racing is even more fun. If you like tactics the slower the boats (as long as evenly matched) the better. 

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On 7/29/2020 at 11:13 PM, Editor said:and no the far east 28 is not great either). the 30 same thing - they just won't go with melges 32's or even ft 10's. no doubt mark mills will say that's not true, but look at the race results, not great. i remember telling mark to make the thing 32'-33'. nope. oh well. and btw, when was the last fast farr boat? those guys lost the plot a number of years ago...

What??!! The Fareast isn’t that great?! Why did you let me buy it then!!!:angry:

Now i have to list it in the classifieds, pay you $50 and hope I don’t get outed when I give my real info out!!

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On 8/4/2020 at 9:12 PM, SF Woody Sailor said:

If you want a serious 30 foot one design racing boat that you can trailer why wouldn't you get an Etchells?

DIllon just got 2 more...  :)

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