martin 'hoff

Splicing: 4 meter endless loop

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For a control line over a rake adjusting wheel, I need a 4 meter endless loop in 4mm or 5mm line. It runs through tight openings - designed to use the friction for control - so it has to be even thickness. Loads are so negligible that a little bit of friction controls it - line isn't even cleated.

Early experiments with double braids I have in hand turned out to be a complete PITA to open up the cover to get to the core.

  • Are there double braids that are good and grippy, and the cover is pliable for splicing? Technique I'm using is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGtJh4lEE90&t=6s
    • Does anyone sell Rooster EasySplice line in the US?
  • Is there a strategy to splice a single-braid dyneema into an even thickness endless loop without having to double up all the line? (I'd do it a smaller loop, but for a 4 meter loop it's impractical). I don't mind losing strength, even a lot of strength here. Have large bag of assorted dyneema line.

Because it goes through tight passages and over turns, I can't just whip the lines together... but there might still be other options...

 

 

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Do it with a single braid. Either a cover or a core. Basically doubled inside itself. Ends opposite 'cover' tucking point. Internal meeting of the ends can be tapered overlap or just mushed in with a bit of extra length so no gap appears. Maybe some longitudinal stitching to keep it from wandering apart. Guessing the finished length is a trick.

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1 minute ago, El Boracho said:

Do it with a single braid. Either a cover or a core. Basically doubled inside itself. Ends opposite 'cover' tucking point. Internal meeting of the ends can be tapered overlap or just mushed in with a bit of extra length so no gap appears. Maybe some longitudinal stitching to keep it from wandering apart. Guessing the finished length is a trick.

Pulling meters of line inside itself is a massive chore, as I mentioned.

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you *could* do it as a single braid and just accept the fact that at join it will be moderately thicker. you'd have to stitch it at the buries. The video you posted is the one I used for some marlow continuous furler line, and that cover was a complete BITCH to open up to get the core out. but really it just took time, patience, swearing, and more time. You could probably use 4 or 5mm robline dinghy control line, sk78 core and polyester cover. you can still use the cover splice to keep the diameter the same.

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2 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

Pulling meters of line inside itself is a massive chore, as I mentioned.

Use core material? It seems to be looser. Or perhaps some 6mm hi-tech cover when all done would be only 5mm? Did you say stretch would be an issue? Common polyester covers are easy to do all the tricks with...when new...2 meters shouldn't be any big deal.

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maffioli swiftcord 

It's perfect for this application. On the 14, all of our control lines are endless w/continuous splices. This line is soft, cleats well, and lasts longer than most.

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What is the total travel?  Is it for a static endless application where the splice is moving a static a to b they may not be interference prone?  You definitely can do a 12 strand endless loop as all factory strops are most likely a splice process out there.  I would guess a traditional 12 strand tucked splice could be inversed.  Half and half. 

 

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7 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

What is the total travel?  Is it for a static endless application where the splice is moving a static a to b they may not be interference prone?  You definitely can do a 12 strand endless loop as all factory strops are most likely a splice process out there.  I would guess a traditional 12 strand tucked splice could be inversed.  Half and half. 

It's to move a wheel that moves a nut over a bolt. Similar to the image below...

Can you flesh out your comment of ... "a traditional 12 strand tucked splice could be inversed.  Half and half. " ? I have loads of 12 strand dyneema.

 

image.png.d80e380962856a7f1362630ba06ff684.png

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A 12 strand tucked splice you divide into 6 pairs tuck half through core and run up tucking in pairs, looking at the lay of the line you will see rows of parallel strands. Over under in pairs up these rows.  For a end to end I would guess you can do 6 one way six the other, or all twelve each way with a short 4-5" splice.  

 

I would look at strop splices for a small diameter one.  

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You shouldn’t have any trouble doing that splice in sta-set or some other double braid with a 16 strand carrier cover. Might not be as grippy as you want though. Marlows MPG furler 50 would be my recommendation but they don’t have it in a size small enough for your use. 
 

you could also get a single braid like the swiftcord mentioned above and remove half the strands from each end for a good distance and then splice the ends together. 
 

In that video, yeah they pull the core out of the cover. But if you’re okay with a couple smaller diameter drops where the covers end you can just milk the cover back and cut the core. Even doing that you can make it all one diameter if you focus enough. 

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Marlow excel control is in 4mm. Designed to be spliced into a continuous loop and very easy to do leaving an even thickness.

Also cheep. Other manufacturers have similar products. 

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Ditto on the Excel control.  If the length is critical make sure you prestretch the loop as the line has a lot of set to it. Honestly you can also just use regular old Poly double braid like Sta Set and get a nice even splice, although the grip won't be as high as the Technora blended line like Excel Control (which is the same thing as Furler 50 just smaller diam)

I have made a single braid endless loop be constant diameter by inserting a polypro core into it but it was a pointless endeavour that took a ton of my time and a lot of someone elses money just so they could have the line they liked but it was dumb don't do it. 

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A product like that only works well with the right control line. 
ask the manufacturer to sell you the rest of the proper package 

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On 7/30/2020 at 12:07 PM, ryley said:

but really it just took time, patience, swearing, and more time. 

;)

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Samson Trophy Braid. use it on continuous line furlers and can't find the splice again after one use. lots of grip and cheap

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A "buddha" splice is what we use for continuous-diameter structural splices. This is how continuous furler lines are built on boats that need them strong (Comanche, Macif).

 

Determine required bury (eg. 400mm in 4mm rope), double it, mark the start and middle of the taper. Gently pull alternating strands to acheive 50% taper at 50% of bury length. Carefully done, you will be able to maintain a 6-strand rope for the remainder of the 50% of the bury. Just after the mark, pull the 7th strand out and begin to wrap the remainder in tape, covering it as you taper. You'll wind up with 4mm at the start, 2mm at 50%, and 1 strand at the end.

 

Tuck into eachother at the 50% mark, stich, set under load, and milk the cover back over. For your application I would recommend something like Marlow MGP Furler 50.

 

HW

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1 hour ago, Haligonian Winterr said:

Tuck into eachother at the 50% mark, stich, set under load, and milk the cover back over. For your application I would recommend something like Marlow MGP Furler 50.

How are the ends of the cover hidden?

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10 hours ago, Overbored said:

Samson Trophy Braid. use it on continuous line furlers and can't find the splice again after one use. lots of grip and cheap

Samson is done serving sailors 

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3 hours ago, El Boracho said:

How are the ends of the cover hidden?

A finger-weave style cross with a whipping over top. Cover strands are split into 3 bundles, and buried under the opposing braid. This unfortunately makes a 1-2mm diameter increase, but is normally within the tolerances of deck hardware.

 

HW

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4 minutes ago, Haligonian Winterr said:

A finger-weave style cross with a whipping over top. Cover strands are split into 3 bundles, and buried under the opposing braid. This unfortunately makes a 1-2mm diameter increase, but is normally within the tolerances of deck hardware .

And can hurt when it tears thru a hand. A necessary evil if strength is needed.

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6 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Samson is done serving sailors 

maybe you should let them know

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On 8/2/2020 at 9:35 AM, Haligonian Winterr said:

A "buddha" splice is what we use for continuous-diameter structural splices. This is how continuous furler lines are built on boats that need them strong (Comanche, Macif).

 

Determine required bury (eg. 400mm in 4mm rope), double it, mark the start and middle of the taper. Gently pull alternating strands to acheive 50% taper at 50% of bury length. Carefully done, you will be able to maintain a 6-strand rope for the remainder of the 50% of the bury. Just after the mark, pull the 7th strand out and begin to wrap the remainder in tape, covering it as you taper. You'll wind up with 4mm at the start, 2mm at 50%, and 1 strand at the end.

 

Tuck into eachother at the 50% mark, stich, set under load, and milk the cover back over. For your application I would recommend something like Marlow MGP Furler 50.

 

HW

Sounds like a lot of intricate work. Hats off.

Before I try this, I'm going to give lines with easy-to-splice covers a shot... this is a lightly loaded control line after all...

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On 8/2/2020 at 8:57 PM, El Boracho said:

And can hurt when it tears thru a hand. A necessary evil if strength is needed.

Any furling line spliced strong enough to do it's job will win over hands/fingers. Not just full-strength ones.

 

HW

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On 7/31/2020 at 2:17 AM, European Bloke said:

Marlow excel control is in 4mm. Designed to be spliced into a continuous loop and very easy to do leaving an even thickness.

Also cheep. Other manufacturers have similar products. 

This

A bit hard to splice, since you don't/can't taper the line. You have to use a needle (D-splicer) and pull the full width line back through the splice. Trick is to get just the right amount through the needle (1/8" or so) too much cannot pull, too little it slips off in the splice and you start again. Dinghys use this for double ended controls that run to both sides of the boat

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On 8/9/2020 at 9:01 PM, Locus said:

This

A bit hard to splice, since you don't/can't taper the line. You have to use a needle (D-splicer) and pull the full width line back through the splice. Trick is to get just the right amount through the needle (1/8" or so) too much cannot pull, too little it slips off in the splice and you start again. Dinghys use this for double ended controls that run to both sides of the boat

So I bought Marlow Excel Control 5mm. It's possible, but incredibly hard. Using a D-splicer and a Samson set of fids, a loop with even thickness splice took at least 1 hour to complete. 

There's either a trick I'm missing, or a really devious definition of easy.

Problems

  • the cover is hard to open up to pull the core out -- but doable
  • the cover doesn't expand to accommodate fid+core so fid is out of the question
  • getting just the right amount of "inner" cover on the tip of the needle is key, because the outer cover doesn't expand much and the fit is so damn tight - angle cut on the "inner" cover end helps (cut it straight later for constant thickness)
  • pulling with the d-splicer and milking the outer cover over is just the devil incarnate; I eventually won with a ton of twisting, but I'm damaging the d-splicer

Is there a better way to go about this?

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18 minutes ago, martin 'hoff said:

So I bought Marlow Excel Control 5mm. It's possible, but incredibly hard. Using a D-splicer and a Samson set of fids, a loop with even thickness splice took at least 1 hour to complete. 

There's either a trick I'm missing, or a really devious definition of easy.

Problems

  • the cover is hard to open up to pull the core out -- but doable
  • the cover doesn't expand to accommodate fid+core so fid is out of the question
  • getting just the right amount of "inner" cover on the tip of the needle is key, because the outer cover doesn't expand much and the fit is so damn tight - angle cut on the "inner" cover end helps (cut it straight later for constant thickness)
  • pulling with the d-splicer and milking the outer cover over is just the devil incarnate; I eventually won with a ton of twisting, but I'm damaging the d-splicer

Is there a better way to go about this?

Nope its a PITA, but once done it works great. 

You are supposed to remove all the core at the splice, you did that correct?  You just milk the cover back and cut the core. I think its 2 or 3 fids on each side

D splice went in just fine but getting the cover through is tough

Cutting a couple picks out of the tip did help but if you put too much through the splicer it wont go, too little it slips. On the 4mm i have i think i had like 1/8" tail through the splicer. 

I even watched the videos from Marlow, they made it look super easy. Took me at least an hour, and of course this is on the boat because its continuous. 

 

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I think you're doing something wrong. I'm no splicing guru but find these very easy.

Bend the rope back on itself, tease the outer open on the outside of the bend with a fid and the core should come out pretty easily.

You should never have the d splicer in the line at a point that has core, so it shouldn't be a tight fit. You're pulling outer into outer at the point you've removed core.

The only part requiring any skill is cutting the ends of the parts you've put into the outer the right length so your don't get a thin bit. Like anything cut too little and then cut more if required.

First time should be a 10 minute job, subsequent splices it takes longer to find the tools and work out how long the loop should be.

Have another look at the video.

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4 hours ago, European Bloke said:

You should never have the d splicer in the line at a point that has core, so it shouldn't be a tight fit. You're pulling outer into outer at the point you've removed core.

I'm doing exactly that, but the outer doesn't stretch enough so the outer-inner being pulled by the d-splicer is "too large / too thick" and the job is horrible.

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6 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

I'm doing exactly that, but the outer doesn't stretch enough so the outer-inner being pulled by the d-splicer is "too large / too thick" and the job is horrible.

I did the same. A colleague told me the same. it was his advice to get the tail through the needle just the right length. Now that its done it looks and works great, The splice is a little stiff, but you have to look hard to find it. Never slipped either.  

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20 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

I'm doing exactly that, but the outer doesn't stretch enough so the outer-inner being pulled by the d-splicer is "too large / too thick" and the job is horrible.

That's strange. I'm putting the smallest amount of rope tail in the d splicer I can, sometimes it's too little and it falls out. No problem just go again.

Previously with difficult splices in very thin D12 I find wetting the line helped it slip through. Didn't need to do that with these splices.

I did try the Kingfisher equivalent as well because my chandler told me it was easier to spice. I think it was really because he didn't have enough colours of the Marlow in. In reality I found them exactly the same to splice.

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I've found a tight wrap or two of millionaire's tape around the end of the D-splicer helps both with keeping the minimal amount of tail in the end of the D-splicer and also helps it slide through. Still not exactly a walk in the park with Marlow MGP Furler 50.

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Do you wrap the tape below the tail to keep the needle together? 

I broke 2 small d splice needles on this stuff. Making my own now. 

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The best way to make the splice easier to do is to do it half a hundred times first. 
 

someone told me it’s called practice

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8 hours ago, mgs said:

The best way to make the splice easier to do is to do it half a hundred times first. 
 

someone told me it’s called practice

Yep. My daughter spliced up sail ties in a couple of her oppie sails in 1.8mm D12. That's about 80 splices in a line i can hardly even see.  She seems to be able to splice anything now.

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5 hours ago, Mikey Don’t Like Sh*t said:

That’s why you pay a rigger $30 and he does it in 10 mins, or you save $30 and it takes you 2 hours and a broken D splicer...

This one needs to get spliced into a fitting that's on the boat. Impractical to ship boat or rigger.

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I'm a little late to the party but in your shoes I'd change the friction mechanism so it's not so dependent on the thickness and other characteristics of the line. What happens if the line diameter isn't perfectly uniform? Or if it stretches over time and thins out? Or the cover texture changes with use?

If you had a clutch or a cam cleat or a clam cleat or anything that wasn't critically dependent on the line itself it seems to me that you'd have a much more robust control solution. 

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Just curious, would using a soft fid be any easier?  I haven't played with Excel so I have no idea on how much of a PITA the cover is.    

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iStream The excel control is specially design to be a continuous line. The core of the line only keeps the cover from collapsing and for the end for end you just pull the cover back and cut the core out each end of the splice, then insert the cover into the other cover just like a single braid. The cover is the load bearing portion and with the proper bury it seems to be just fine. I even have trouble locating the splice as its the same diameter as the rest of the rope, just a bit stiffer so there is an 8" straight spot in the line. 

I have to balance the slack on both sides of the boat all the time so the splice moves constantly, been on the boat for 3 years never been an issue cleating or running through some small blocks (All 16mm or micro blocks) I am using it on my Rake/shroud controls and vang. Both cascade controls so final purchase pretty low, but it has a 600lb strength in the 4mm size I think so the splice should hold that. 

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On 9/24/2020 at 5:16 AM, European Bloke said:

Previously with difficult splices in very thin D12 I find wetting the line helped it slip through.

When you say wet, do you mean soak/dip it in water or just the a bit of water on the outside? 

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4 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

When you say wet, do you mean soak/dip it in water or just the a bit of water on the outside? 

Dip it in water, couple of seconds until it's completely wet. Don't know it it helps in a line with a cover.

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