Alaris

What’s next for J?

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The 121 has been out a few years. Personally I wouldn’t be surprised to see something in the 43-45’ range. This is the first time since the 44 was introduced in 1989 that they haven’t offered a single boat over 40’.

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dust off the drawing board and build a fast boat. In the 40 foot range, think 125 with just a little more beam aft and the rudder moved forward.  

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Just now, IMR said:

dust off the drawing board and build a fast boat. In the 40 foot range, think 125 with just a little more beam aft and the rudder moved forward.  

They were so close with the 121. Could they strip it out and make it cheaper and faster without going full carbon a la 125?

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I think in the talk with the Ed there were some hints of something like that being in the works, 46ft or so? Would need to listen to it again but less important stuff keeps me from it.

It's an interesting interview from a design perspective, though. You will never see a Pogo/Dehler 30 etc. style boat in the near future as they believe in rather slim lines aft, no chines and an emphasis on a boat that goes upwind as well.

But I agree, a modern version of a 125 would be a good counterpoint to all these inflated bathtubs. Just to show them, that you can do it differently. A slightly faster 99 or 88 would also be good, maybe a re-iteration of the J/90?

img699

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1 hour ago, Alaris said:

They were so close with the 121. Could they strip it out and make it cheaper and faster without going full carbon a la 125?

I feel like they could just turbo the 121 and be there.  The 121 hull is all that, but the rig is so conservative, that it rates basically the same as a 122, despite being much lighter and having water ballast.  Put a decent stick on it, and watch it go.  

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1 hour ago, Alaris said:

They were so close with the 121. Could they strip it out and make it cheaper and faster without going full carbon a la 125?

Take the 121 and build it in carbon and strip it out so it’s fast.

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1 minute ago, Roleur said:

I feel like they could just turbo the 121 and be there.  The 121 hull is all that, but the rig is so conservative, that it rates basically the same as a 122, despite being much lighter and having water ballast.  Put a decent stick on it, and watch it go.  

I just looked at the specs and didn’t realize the SA/D was so low. Seems like a missed opportunity but then again they tend to skew conservative generally and the design brief was for short handed sailing. 

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6 minutes ago, Matagi said:

I think in the talk with the Ed there were some hints of something like that being in the works, 46ft or so? Would need to listen to it again but less important stuff keeps me from it.

It's an interesting interview from a design perspective, though. You will never see a Pogo/Dehler 30 etc. style boat in the near future as they believe in rather slim lines aft, no chines and an emphasis on a boat that goes upwind as well.

But I agree, a modern version of a 125 would be a good counterpoint to all these inflated bathtubs. Just to show them, that you can do it differently. A slightly faster 99 or 88 would also be good, maybe a re-iteration of the J/90?

img699

The 90 and the 125 have the same dna. 

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1 minute ago, IMR said:

Take the 121 and build it in carbon and strip it out so it’s fast.

Million dollar 40 footer :blink:

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Well there is a turbo'ed version out there with a taller mast....

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2 minutes ago, RImike said:

Well there is a turbo'ed version out there with a taller mast....

Where?  Boat name?

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unstayed J/123 offshore catboat

 

post-55-1224014308.jpg 

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21 minutes ago, bloodshot said:

unstayed J/123 offshore catboat

 

post-55-1224014308.jpg 

One might call J/Boats many names, but unconventional is not one of them. 

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3057.jpg

Loki

Note the squaretop main

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Any idea the rating impact of the new rig and sails?

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How about a J75 that can keep up with a 25 year old Melges 24?

 Unlikely. 

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I wouldn't mind seeing a 20-21 footer that can compete for club fleet ownership like the RS21

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Those are treading awfully close to the J/70 even given the caveats you both list. I don’t see J stepping on their own toes like that. 

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7 hours ago, bloodshot said:

I wouldn't mind seeing a 20-21 footer that can compete for club fleet ownership like the RS21

This^^. The future is small and shorthanded.

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4 hours ago, Guvacine said:

This^^. The future is small and shorthanded.

The future is shorthanded, not necessarily small.

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20 hours ago, captnjoe said:

The future is shorthanded, not necessarily small.

Exactly.  We just finished our 18th double-handed race of the year on our J/111.  At least 12 more planned for the remainder of the year.  

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5 minutes ago, Roleur said:

Exactly.  We just finished our 18th double-handed race of the year on our J/111.  At least 12 more planned for the remainder of the year.  

Ditto on our turbo 105, although only three races down so far. Two more in the next two weeks. 

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2 hours ago, Roleur said:

Exactly.  We just finished our 18th double-handed race of the year on our J/111.  At least 12 more planned for the remainder of the year.  

Our boating was locked down for almost the whole first half of the year (counting Jan and Feb for winter weather) so we’re really just getting started. We just don’t have enough stability in our race schedules because of covid so we’re just playing it by ear. If races go forward we will go. But it’s impossible to make long term (i.e. months ahead) plans like a usual season. 

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In the Stu Johnston interview I asked what was the next J boat.  Stu replied that something along the lines of the 121 but in the 145 size range.

We need to get this "new" 125 out of our heads.  The 125 molds were destroyed in a fire and it sounds like they have no interest in low volume builds, regardless how fast they could be on the water. They want to sell 100 boats per model, not 10.

The 121 is no slouch.  It won its class in Transpac last year.  And while I would not turn down a Transpac ride on a 125, I'm willing to bet the guys on the 121 had just as much fun with a bit more elbow room below.

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On 8/1/2020 at 9:23 AM, bloodshot said:

I wouldn't mind seeing a 20-21 footer that can compete for club fleet ownership like the RS21

Not sure why you would pass on the j/70 for that purpose.  RS21's aren't much cheaper than a 70, if at all.

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1 hour ago, Swimsailor said:

In the Stu Johnston interview I asked what was the next J boat.  Stu replied that something along the lines of the 121 but in the 145 size range.

We need to get this "new" 125 out of our heads.  The 125 molds were destroyed in a fire and it sounds like they have no interest in low volume builds, regardless how fast they could be on the water. They want to sell 100 boats per model, not 10.

The 121 is no slouch.  It won its class in Transpac last year.  And while I would not turn down a Transpac ride on a 125, I'm willing to bet the guys on the 121 had just as much fun with a bit more elbow room below.

I don’t mean to be a dick, but I got a Moore 24 to Hawaii in the same time it took the 121. They were almost 2 days slower than the 125. I bet they had fun. 

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7 hours ago, IMR said:

I don’t mean to be a dick, but I got a Moore 24 to Hawaii in the same time it took the 121. They were almost 2 days slower than the 125. I bet they had fun. 

A win is a win.  But that’s kind of my point.  I don’t think J Boat customers are looking for absolute speed.  I doubt there are many buyers trying to decide between a J121 or a Moore 24 for their next transpac.

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10 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

A win is a win.  But that’s kind of my point.  I don’t think J Boat customers are looking for absolute speed.  I doubt there are many buyers trying to decide between a J121 or a Moore 24 for their next transpac.

You might as well be comparing the 121 to a foiling dinghy. Their design briefs could not be more different. 

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34 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

A win is a win.  But that’s kind of my point.  I don’t think J Boat customers are looking for absolute speed.  I doubt there are many buyers trying to decide between a J121 or a Moore 24 for their next transpac.

I was not trying to say it’s a 121 or a Moore 24. I was just saying the 121 is not all that fast for a 40 foot boat.  

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4 minutes ago, IMR said:

I was not trying to say it’s a 121 or a Moore 24. I was just saying the 121 is not all that fast for a 40 foot boat.  

I agree with you there, it could use some more rig IMO. Stability is probably fine with water ballast, add crew if you like for max speed or maybe a heavier keel. The hull shape is probably one of the better (best?) big boats J has designed excluding the 125/145. 

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On 8/1/2020 at 9:20 AM, Varan said:

How about a J75 that can keep up with a 25 year old Melges 24?

 Unlikely. 

The J/70 was meant to be a one design.  This focus on absolute speed is kind of a waste of time.  The target market for the 70 isn't someone who wants to sail faster than a Melges 24.  I would think those cross shopping the 2 would be looking at the closest 1D fleet.  And as far as I have seen, neither one lights the PHRF world on fire.

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1 minute ago, Swimsailor said:

The J/70 was meant to be a one design.  This focus on absolute speed is kind of a waste of time.  The target market for the 70 isn't someone who wants to sail faster than a Melges 24.  I would think those cross shopping the 2 would be looking at the closest 1D fleet.  And as far as I have seen, neither one lights the PHRF world on fire.

The Melges 24s I’ve raced against in PHRF regularly get clobbered by boats rating both far higher and far lower. The best boats and crews don’t bother with PHRF. 

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4 minutes ago, IMR said:

I was not trying to say it’s a 121 or a Moore 24. I was just saying the 121 is not all that fast for a 40 foot boat.  

And I'm saying it doesn't matter.  Transpac win.  Newport Bermuda win.  Bayview Mac win.  

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Loki the J/121 raced The Hook Race with a PHRF rating of 3.  She went up about 4 feet in the mast. 

She took 3rd in PHRF 2, losing to a Farr 40 rating -12, and a J/160 rating -6.

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3 hours ago, garyedelman said:

Loki the J/121 raced The Hook Race with a PHRF rating of 3.  She went up about 4 feet in the mast. 

She took 3rd in PHRF 2, losing to a Farr 40 rating -12, and a J/160 rating -6.

Sounds like it would rate something like 12 sec/mile slower than a J/125 then?  That's not bad considering it would be easier to shorthand and more comfortable in general.  Isn't the base rating of a 121 closer to 30?  

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An issue with the 121 IMO is cost. At that price point (close to $500k), there are a number of French and Italian built boats that are lighter, have more sail area and still with good accommodations. The problem with going even bigger is costs only go up, but Beneteau have clearly found a market for the First 50, and something in the 45-48' size range that is both lighter and more offshore capable will probably sell.

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12 minutes ago, samc99us said:

An issue with the 121 IMO is cost. At that price point (close to $500k), there are a number of French and Italian built boats that are lighter, have more sail area and still with good accommodations. The problem with going even bigger is costs only go up, but Beneteau have clearly found a market for the First 50, and something in the 45-48' size range that is both lighter and more offshore capable will probably sell.

J Boats have always been pricey.  But likewise, there are few brands that hold their value like a J.  But you’re right, some of the stuff in Europe is amazing.  Italia Yachts look the part at any length.  

I think J Boats’ customer base drives their design decisions.  Whatever is coming I hope it sells like crazy. 

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To summarize, a bigger J/121, built like a J/125 at a Beneteau price point :lol::lol::lol:

J/boats understand the difference between what crew dreams about, and what owners actually buy, and by now they have lots of data points.

I would be first in line for a sportier J/121, but then there are many options including a custom build. Or a Class 40. Or sensible/economic options like the Xp-44 or Swan 42/45 that you can own for 3-4 years to do the bucket list races and re-sell quite easily. This is a tough segment with picky owners.

As hinted above, the natural step is probably the J/141 (J/121 but in J/145 size) were the feedback from the J/121 could be used to make a perfect Transpac ride for people to old for the J/125.

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6 minutes ago, Blur said:

To summarize, a bigger J/121, built like a J/125 at a Beneteau price point :lol::lol::lol:

J/boats understand the difference between what crew dreams about, and what owners actually buy, and by now they have lots of data points.

I would be first in line for a sportier J/121, but then there are many options including a custom build. Or a Class 40. Or sensible/economic options like the Xp-44 or Swan 42/45 that you can own for 3-4 years to do the bucket list races and re-sell quite easily. This is a tough segment with picky owners.

As hinted above, the natural step is probably the J/141 (J/121 but in J/145 size) were the feedback from the J/121 could be used to make a perfect Transpac ride for people to old for the J/125.

As long as we can call it a "one forty one".  Even in the interview, Stu used "one twenty one".

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On 8/3/2020 at 9:31 AM, Alaris said:

I agree with you there, it could use some more rig IMO. Stability is probably fine with water ballast, add crew if you like for max speed or maybe a heavier keel. The hull shape is probably one of the better (best?) big boats J has designed excluding the 125/145. 

Why not just do a 121S?  They could use almost all the existing tooling, then just toss a bigger stick on it and cut down a bit on the furniture. 

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2 hours ago, Blur said:

To summarize, a bigger J/121, built like a J/125 at a Beneteau price point :lol::lol::lol:

J/boats understand the difference between what crew dreams about, and what owners actually buy, and by now they have lots of data points.

I would be first in line for a sportier J/121, but then there are many options including a custom build. Or a Class 40. Or sensible/economic options like the Xp-44 or Swan 42/45 that you can own for 3-4 years to do the bucket list races and re-sell quite easily. This is a tough segment with picky owners.

As hinted above, the natural step is probably the J/141 (J/121 but in J/145 size) were the feedback from the J/121 could be used to make a perfect Transpac ride for people to old for the J/125.

When J/Boats made a boat that was pretty close to what we wanted, but a little underpowered, we bought a hull and built the rest. 26 years later we’re still pleased with the result. What Loki did isn’t far off (although we changed foils too).

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On 8/2/2020 at 5:33 PM, Roleur said:

Exactly.  We just finished our 18th double-handed race of the year on our J/111.  At least 12 more planned for the remainder of the year.  

ya bastard B)

My daughter and I have our first one planned for Saturday

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On 8/3/2020 at 2:17 PM, Roleur said:

Sounds like it would rate something like 12 sec/mile slower than a J/125 then?  That's not bad considering it would be easier to shorthand and more comfortable in general.  Isn't the base rating of a 121 closer to 30?  

 

On 8/3/2020 at 10:42 AM, garyedelman said:

Loki the J/121 raced The Hook Race with a PHRF rating of 3.  She went up about 4 feet in the mast. 

She took 3rd in PHRF 2, losing to a Farr 40 rating -12, and a J/160 rating -6.

 

PHRF should have been closer to 9 or 12 but it was done rather hastily because of the Mac race cancellation.  The boat sails great with the new rig, nice and powerful upwind and great horsepower off the wind, much better for Chicago/Great Lakes.  I didn't sail on the boat much before the new rig  but word was that it was sticky even with the bigger square top on the stock rig. 

Rig is 5' taller, 22% square top, lots of fun Code Zeros and the water ballast inlets have been glassed over (rating hit wasn't worth it).

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7 hours ago, Blur said:

To summarize, a bigger J/121, built like a J/125 at a Beneteau price point :lol::lol::lol:

J/boats understand the difference between what crew dreams about, and what owners actually buy, and by now they have lots of data points.

I would be first in line for a sportier J/121, but then there are many options including a custom build. Or a Class 40. Or sensible/economic options like the Xp-44 or Swan 42/45 that you can own for 3-4 years to do the bucket list races and re-sell quite easily. This is a tough segment with picky owners.

As hinted above, the natural step is probably the J/141 (J/121 but in J/145 size) were the feedback from the J/121 could be used to make a perfect Transpac ride for people to old for the J/125.

I was the youngest guy on the Velvet Hammer at 37 last year for Transpac. We had guys up into their late 50’s. I would put the average age of our crew at 45 years old without doing the math. 

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18 hours ago, Alaris said:

When J/Boats made a boat that was pretty close to what we wanted, but a little underpowered, we bought a hull and built the rest. 26 years later we’re still pleased with the result. What Loki did isn’t far off (although we changed foils too).

What 26 year old j/boat did you turbo? 

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3 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

What 26 year old j/boat did you turbo? 

J/105

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45 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

We gotta see this!

Carbon Hall rig 7’ taller than stock, masthead (136m2) and fractional (89m2) kites 

7’ keel (looks like a J/125 without as long a trailing edge on the bulb)

Carbon/GRP rudder (looks like a J/111)

155% genoa

500lb lighter than a stock boat

64520F7D-BEDC-459D-8284-5F4235DAF519.jpeg

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21 minutes ago, Alaris said:

Carbon Hall rig 7’ taller than stock, masthead (136m2) and fractional (89m2) kites 

7’ keel (looks like a J/125 without as long a trailing edge on the bulb)

Carbon/GRP rudder (looks like a J/111)

155% genoa

500lb lighter than a stock boat

64520F7D-BEDC-459D-8284-5F4235DAF519.jpeg

Wow!  Has it been successful?

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Nice setup on Muskrat!

The J/120 owner I'm sailing with and I considered the J/145 briefly before the 120 (we're both fast cat sailors so have speed addiction syndrome)...draft was an issue, as is cost of sails for that boat. Still, what a weapon, basically a cruisable, faster version of the J/125. Several were available for about the same as some of the tricked out J/125's, including a new suite of sails and a reasonable level of work.

If they did something similar to the 145, built to a similar weight ,with water ballast and modern sail handling equipment, it could sell, but probably in limited numbers as that is aggressive for the non-racing sailor. Draft on a true 45' performance boat remains an issue on the U.S East Coast, partly why the J/120 is a great offshore boat and competitive Chesapeake boat, coupled with the reasonable price and solid build, it matched the owners needs well.

Going forward, the water ballast issue on handicap is challenging, maybe with COVID and short handed sailing the new norm some of the restrictions will ease up and the ~50% of 121's that aren't sailing with water ballast as a result will switch.

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2 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

Wow!  Has it been successful?

We have been pleased with her performance :D

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43 minutes ago, Alaris said:

We have been pleased with her performance :D

Don't be a tease, we need pics of her undercarriage.

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Just now, Swimsailor said:

Don't be a tease, we need pics of her undercarriage.

It’s not pretty right now. The keel and rudder are being prepped for a repaint. I’ll see if I can get over there today. 

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3 hours ago, Alaris said:

Carbon Hall rig 7’ taller than stock, masthead (136m2) and fractional (89m2) kites 

7’ keel (looks like a J/125 without as long a trailing edge on the bulb)

Carbon/GRP rudder (looks like a J/111)

155% genoa

500lb lighter than a stock boat

64520F7D-BEDC-459D-8284-5F4235DAF519.jpeg

Whats it rate?

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3 minutes ago, woodpecker said:

Whats it rate?

72 W/L 66 random leg — it is only rated for the frac kite right now

When we first built her we got slammed at 42(!)

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1 hour ago, Swimsailor said:

Don't be a tease, we need pics of her undercarriage.

As I said, pardon the appearance— the keel and rudder are prepped for paint.

C8513BE2-A65F-49CC-8470-8021E0485B5D.thumb.jpeg.e3013310772aaec2efd8b8bfac1c3cb6.jpeg

2411AF72-1B7E-4E7A-8ED3-E35C8B48D40D.thumb.jpeg.6547654c1e4c5fce9ee72ae0bf5b11f4.jpeg

F408F049-72F0-4C5E-953D-CF705B4CAC7F.thumb.jpeg.a9b28b58bd3587d91c63e82f54c609ea.jpeg

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22 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Very interesting!  Is the project documented somewhere?  (FB, blog, etc)

Nope, far predates that kind of technology! Maybe someday I’ll sit down with everyone involved and write it all down. 

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5 hours ago, Alaris said:

Carbon Hall rig 7’ taller than stock, masthead (136m2) and fractional (89m2) kites 

7’ keel (looks like a J/125 without as long a trailing edge on the bulb)

Carbon/GRP rudder (looks like a J/111)

155% genoa

500lb lighter than a stock boat

64520F7D-BEDC-459D-8284-5F4235DAF519.jpeg

Why?  Seriously, seems like a lot of money sunk into a boat that only rates 66 and has no one design fleet....

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18 minutes ago, SEC16518 said:

Why?  Seriously, seems like a lot of money sunk into a boat that only rates 66 and has no one design fleet....

Why not?  It’s a cool boat that has provided the owner and crew a lot of good times.  Isn’t that enough?

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37 minutes ago, SEC16518 said:

Why?  Seriously, seems like a lot of money sunk into a boat that only rates 66 and has no one design fleet....

Because we wanted to.

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1 hour ago, SEC16518 said:

Obviously..., but what was your goal in this project?

The boat we wanted didn’t exist in 1994. If we were doing it today, maybe we’d go for a 111. As it stands, it is the light air performer we wanted. 

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55 minutes ago, Alaris said:

The boat we wanted didn’t exist in 1994. If we were doing it today, maybe we’d go for a 111. As it stands, it is the light air performer we wanted. 

When you crawl into the grave; no one will ask if you did everything the "right" way .... only if you enjoyed the ride.  I love your response!

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On 8/6/2020 at 6:01 AM, SEC16518 said:

Obviously..., but what was your goal in this project?

I’m sorry, but I’ll happily stand behind anyone that “turbos” a boat. It’s simply more fun!

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31 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I’m sorry, but I’ll happily stand behind anyone that “turbos” a boat. It’s simply more fun!

It is fun! And we have the added benefit of lifetime ownership, because it can’t be reverted to class legal so no one would buy it from us!

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I also own a J105!

 

lovely yours Alaris!

 

We have problems in light, and we are not able to do your changes!

what about a bigger main and biggest jib and kite?

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1 hour ago, WANDERLUST said:

I also own a J105!

 

lovely yours Alaris!

 

We have problems in light, and we are not able to do your changes!

what about a bigger main and biggest jib and kite?

These are our measurements for the small kite (fractional 89m2). We also have a masthead 136m2 but PHRF really kills us on the rating so we are trying out a smaller kite this season. Measurements are accurate unlike a lot of PHRF certificates because the boat has an ORC rating.

941C3F79-C2A0-431D-B44C-274356E1C011.jpeg

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On 8/3/2020 at 10:34 AM, Alaris said:

The Melges 24s I’ve raced against in PHRF regularly get clobbered by boats rating both far higher and far lower. The best boats and crews don’t bother with PHRF. 

Depends on the area, rating and course. In PHRF NE Melges 24's rate 108.

In W/L racing in breeze and waves they don't do that well. The larger boats that rate the same or close can punch through the chop better. They get hammed to the first mark and can't recover downwind. 

In point to point racing with the kite up in breeze they're virtually untouchable.  

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On 8/5/2020 at 4:48 PM, Alaris said:

72 W/L 66 random leg — it is only rated for the frac kite right now

When we first built her we got slammed at 42(!)

I bet its a PHRF weapon at 72. 

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5 hours ago, Squalamax said:

I bet its a PHRF weapon at 72. 

We have fun. We’re really a weapon when the wind is so light many people consider canceling races (<6kts). Otherwise a pretty good contender but if there is any upwind in a blow, we get annihilated. Beyond overpowered. Which makes sense, because we designed the boat to race in the summer on the Chesapeake which has traditionally been very light.
 

We have reduced the size of the main since she was originally built. For one thing the boom came across the pedestal at approximately the helmsman’s teeth, and for another, it was just too much main. She now actually has a shorter E than a stock 105 but several feet more on the hoist. 

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