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Caca Cabeza

Tesla Model 3 - Good, Bad ugly... Anything else?

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Need to make changes to the motorpool. Colleague has had a model 3 for 2+ years. He thinks it's great. Has all of the features. I'm thinking of the base model (250 miles, white nothing else). Anyone have reports?

Thanks!

PS - I am always bagging on him to take the iPad of the dashboard. How DO you do that? /sarc off

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39 minutes ago, Caca Cabeza said:

PS - I am always bagging on him to take the iPad of the dashboard. How DO you do that?

Just put black electrical tape over it. ;)

As long as you've got access to a charge, the only thing you'll have to worry about is Tesla haters.

Dunno why some just can't let it be. Probably laid-off auto workers.

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I looked at the 3 and now see them all the time.  Nice but.... Y appears to be the minimum I need.  Additional room with the seats down.  The room plus the unreal 0-60 just sold me.  

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2 hours ago, woodpecker said:

Everything you need to know about owning a Telsa.

Yep, disgruntled auto worker.

Think of all the usual ICE maintenance unneeded on an electric vehicle.

That alone...

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So, caveat, I do not own an Model 3. 

OTOH, I do have a current lease on a Chevy Bolt. Why? Free charging at work so it was (pre covid) a free car compared to the gas I was putting in my old ranger.

So (what happens often) because of the charging at work, there's a lot of  model 3 folks that also charge. And these are folks I work with on a daily basis, ride in their cars. etc...) Sp I've got some sense on what a Model 3 is. 

Unless you absolutely need infinite range, once you go electric, you'll never go back. 

Covid hits, so I'm workin from home. We had previously  bought the semi-grown kids a brand freakin new Tacoma, to replace the 200K mile ranger I was driving to work. (And we do use a truck often, hence a striped down Taco.) . What do they use? The Bolt. Why? 'Cause it's a freakin ball to drive.  Yup, this crap econobox GM thing is amazingly fun to drive. Off the scale fun. Better than my (previously owned) mustang. It's a ball to drive. Did I mention that this crap GM thing is an absolute ball to drive? 

Model 3?  Better in every single way than the Bolt. ('cept for some build quality issues.) The software is top-notch, and shows why existing car manufactures are f'n dinosaurs.  You don't see lots of M3 buyers regretting the buy. Oh, it's _beyond_ a ball to drive. Except compared to a Model S. Yea... that thing is great to drive........

 

 

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35 minutes ago, gptyk said:

('cept for some build quality issues.)

Fit and finish?

P'shaw.

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2 hours ago, justsomeguy! said:

Yep, disgruntled auto worker.

Think of all the usual ICE maintenance unneeded on an electric vehicle.

That alone...

In theory, yeah ... but in reality, these Teslas are very complicated luxury cars, and while they may not need much maintenance, when things go wrong they are apparently very difficult to fix by an average home DIY mechanic. The YouTube videos I've seen for even simple repairs are very complicated, and the people doing the work seem to have far more expertise than the average home mechanic.

My local auto parts retailer only has the most basic parts for the Teslas, like brake pads, lights, tire pressure sensors, and such. It seems that complicated repairs require pats that are not easy to get, and often have to be removed from donor cars.

An average little economy ICE car by Mazda, Nissan, GM or Toyota is still pretty easy and cheap to fix, even with the fancy stuff on there.

The Teslas are luxury vehicles. But someday soon, cheap, simple electric cars, vans and trucks will be available from the mainstream makers, and hopefully they will be as dead simple to repair and upgrade as glorified electric golf cart should be.

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Mikey hates anything that doesn't use oil.

Job is a job right?

 

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7 hours ago, Caca Cabeza said:

Need to make changes to the motorpool. Colleague has had a model 3 for 2+ years. He thinks it's great. Has all of the features. I'm thinking of the base model (250 miles, white nothing else). Anyone have reports?

 

It's fucking FAST!

The only thing I don't like about the 3 is that all the displays are offset - there is nothing right in front of your eyes.  You get used to it, to see stuff like speed etc out of the corner of your eye.  But it's just not natural.  

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5 hours ago, mikewof said:

...the most basic parts for the Teslas,

Which are the usual repairs/maintenance needed.

Especially brake pads!

Musk has upended the auto industry's business model, pissing off the big three in the US to no end.

Not to mention NADA.

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Several friends have Tesla’s, a couple of model 3’s. All are very happy to the point of acting like LDS Missionaries at times ;)  None have seen any mechanical issues.  

Panel fit and paint tend to be pretty average. First few months’ production seem to be the worst in that regard. I’d be pretty hard on an inspection on a new one (used seem to hold great value so new is probably a trade off with low mileage used). If buying used from a known source, I’d say as long as you are happy with the condition, go for it. 

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Who cares how hard they are to fix? Sounds like some old fart talking about "Well, I can't adjustumicate the carburetter any more, and these dangfarnded computer whachamacallets are going to make fixing it impossible....Sheeeeit Martha, the dangmabbit engine is in sideways...."

1979 was a long time ago...

Unless you drive crazy, you're not going to even replace brakes on a Tesla. They're rarely actually used. Regen is the heavy lifter for stopping. For the same reason it's hard to buy durian at a Krogers, Autozone isn't going to stock stuff they're not gonna sell, so no Tesla parts. And let's face it, your average Tesla owner (or any brand new car owner) isn't looking to DIY maintenance. One of the great benefits of my (much crappier than a Tesla) electric car is the first scheduled maintenance is 150K miles. (Replace brake and cooling fluid). I upgraded from a 1999 jeep and a 1997 ranger to the Bolt and Tacoma because I was tired of wrenching on cars. (The boat still needs lots of work...)

And there are/were cheap-azz electrics out there. My Bolt lease is less than $300. (Was cheaper than gas on a 25 mile commute) for a 240 mile range. Compliance cars (Kia Soul, Fiat 500e, e-golf, etc...) were regularly available for ~200/month. If I didn't need a truck from time to time the kids would be tooling around in a used 500e that can be had all day long for $6K when they come off lease. Sure, range is pretty crap, but most folks don't need all that much range. (Resale on compliance cars is terrible... don't buy new, lease. They're a bargain used.  That's different with a Tesla)

The Kona and Niro are quite nice, but get to a $$$ point where the model 3 is a better buy. 

I like the center screen in the Model 3. Not at all hard to get used to, but ymmv. They're very fun to drive. Total cost of ownership over 3 years is less than a camry. Model 3 is a pretty small car. 'Mericans that compensate by having canyonero huge vehicles don't like em. All cars should have the integrated "dashcam" features that Tesla's do. 

 

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37 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Several friends have Tesla’s, a couple of model 3’s. All are very happy to the point of acting like LDS Missionaries at times ;) 

Lol. Yup.

Toyota and GM had fit and finish issues with vehicles out of NUMMI too... So maybe it's just Oakland? :)

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2 hours ago, justsomeguy! said:

Which are the usual repairs/maintenance needed.

Especially brake pads!

Musk has upended the auto industry's business model, pissing off the big three in the US to no end.

Not to mention NADA.

Sure, the average home DIYer can change brake pads and light bulbs, but troubleshoot that supercomputer on wheels? Fix collision damage? Replace the batteries or manage the high voltage system?

I've watched these repairs on YouTube, and the DIYers doing them have resources far beyond the average shade-tree mechanic.

Isuzu makes a very simple EV system, I'll bet that I could fix it. But Teslas seem to be part of a closed loop infrastructure.

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16 minutes ago, gptyk said:

Lol. Yup.

Toyota and GM had fit and finish issues with vehicles out of NUMMI too... So maybe it's just Oakland? :)

Wasn't the NUMMI facility responsible for the fiasco with the rusted out Toyota truck beds?

The Japanese built these perfect little trucks, sent them to the USA to just do one thing, build the bed and bolt it on ...

In the 1980s, I remember seeing these gorgeous little, rust-free made-in-Japan Toyota pickup bodies, with rusted out Made in USA beds.

 

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4 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Sure, the average home DIYer can change brake pads and light bulbs, but troubleshoot that supercomputer on wheels? Fix collision damage? Replace the batteries or manage the high voltage system?

I've watched these repairs on YouTube, and the DIYers doing them have resources far beyond the average shade-tree mechanic.

 

Ford, GM and the other old guard have systems just as complex, if you haven't noticed.

Today's shade tree mechanic only deals with brakes, tires/wheels, lube and oil and exhaust, maybe, and the occasional OBD to identify when he needs a pro.

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28 minutes ago, gptyk said:

Who cares how hard they are to fix? Sounds like some old fart talking about "Well, I can't adjustumicate the carburetter any more, and these dangfarnded computer whachamacallets are going to make fixing it impossible....Sheeeeit Martha, the dangmabbit engine is in sideways...."

1979 was a long time ago...

Unless you drive crazy, you're not going to even replace brakes on a Tesla. They're rarely actually used. Regen is the heavy lifter for stopping. For the same reason it's hard to buy durian at a Krogers, Autozone isn't going to stock stuff they're not gonna sell, so no Tesla parts. And let's face it, your average Tesla owner (or any brand new car owner) isn't looking to DIY maintenance. One of the great benefits of my (much crappier than a Tesla) electric car is the first scheduled maintenance is 150K miles. (Replace brake and cooling fluid). I upgraded from a 1999 jeep and a 1997 ranger to the Bolt and Tacoma because I was tired of wrenching on cars. (The boat still needs lots of work...)

And there are/were cheap-azz electrics out there. My Bolt lease is less than $300. (Was cheaper than gas on a 25 mile commute) for a 240 mile range. Compliance cars (Kia Soul, Fiat 500e, e-golf, etc...) were regularly available for ~200/month. If I didn't need a truck from time to time the kids would be tooling around in a used 500e that can be had all day long for $6K when they come off lease. Sure, range is pretty crap, but most folks don't need all that much range. (Resale on compliance cars is terrible... don't buy new, lease. They're a bargain used.  That's different with a Tesla)

The Kona and Niro are quite nice, but get to a $$$ point where the model 3 is a better buy. 

I like the center screen in the Model 3. Not at all hard to get used to, but ymmv. They're very fun to drive. Total cost of ownership over 3 years is less than a camry. Model 3 is a pretty small car. 'Mericans that compensate by having canyonero huge vehicles don't like em. All cars should have the integrated "dashcam" features that Tesla's do. 

 

Some people don't care if they can fix their own machines. It really bugs some of us though. I used to be able to put a new battery in my phone when it wouldn't hold a charge. Now my Galaxy 7 is a bit long in the tooth, the battery is shot, and the only way to replace the thing is to melt the glue that holds the whole phone together. Yeah, many people would just spend $800 on a new phone, but my phone works fine, except for the battery.

And in the case of these electric cars, I very much like the Chevy Volt system, with a gas engine, but what is the logic of putting over half a ton of batteries in the Tesla to give it a 300-some mile range? The average daily commute is less than 50 miles. Why not put in a 200 lbs battery pack to take the car the average 50 mile daily commute, and then just add in 200 lbs. of gasoline engine and a small gas tank to charge the EV system for unlimited range, thus dropping the weight of the car by 800 lbs.?

But real life doesn't always hit that 300-some mile range, and cold conditions can take 100 miles or more off of it. So they put in a far oversized battery and essentially restrict the car to commuting. I don't have a problem with that, the Tesla seems to be a really terrific luxury car. But it's a luxury car, for someone who has another vehicle or two at their disposal. It seems not to be ideal vehicle for someone as their one-and-only vehicle, or for someone who can only afford one vehicle.

Tesla makes luxury vehicles, and I've no doubt that they will continue to do well with that. But if some manufacturer can make a variation of Mitsubishi's PHEV system, and built it into a bare-bones, economy vehicle format, brand new for less than about $18k, that will be a car that most anyone can use as their one and only ... drive to work, drive cross country, take the unexpected long trip without needing to find charging stations to stop for hours along the way. But such a car would be the equivalent of a blender, the equivalent of a Toyota Corolla , not sexy like the Tesla, but able to integrate into tens of millions of lives without headaches.

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32 minutes ago, justsomeguy! said:

Ford, GM and the other old guard have systems just as complex, if you haven't noticed.

Today's shade tree mechanic only deals with brakes, tires/wheels, lube and oil and exhaust, maybe, and the occasional OBD to identify when he needs a pro.

Ford is worse, in my opinion. But I'm able to so far fix all issues with a 2012 Nissan, 2013 Mazda and 2007 Dodge.

The point there though is that independent mechanics really can fix just about any contemporary vehicle, the Teslas seem to take Ford's approach to try to keep their repairs within their own infrastructure. I can't get behind that, and it's really not adhering to the Magnuson-Moss Act. Tesla is apparently able to get away with it, Ford too, but I don't want to support that.

The irony is that the Japanese makers like Toyota and Nissan (but also GM and Fiat/Chrysler to a slightly lesser degree) seem more committed to being compliant with Magnuson-Moss than the American makers like Ford and Tesla.

Given all of that, I like Tesla because they're really pushing the envelope, and I guess that their need to keep vehicles in their own service network is a cost of what they're doing. That new exo-skeleton truck that they plan to sell seems to be a really good idea, if it works. I'm not sure if it will be the right truck to do what a truck does, but I'm sure there will be a lot of them in front of the nation's frat houses.

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7 minutes ago, justsomeguy! said:

YMMV

Absolutely, literally. Some people are pulling their Teslas right to the 300-some mile range and beyond, but less-than-ideal conditions impact the range. Same thing with the other EVs. That's a new kind of thing for us to wrap our heads around. It's not unmanageable, but it seems so easy to avoid with the addition of some very lightweight gasoline engines to charge the batteries when the driver goes beyond the designed range.

Chevy stopped making the Volt it seems simply because the market for EVs is not mainly for a one-car per person, but rather as an extra car. The Bolt and Tesla and the other EV-only vehicles fit that.

So, is there anyone in this thread who has an EV as their one and only vehicle?

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I'm all for progress regarding the e-cars...but one issue I have not seen addressed is what happens to all the batteries at the end of their life?

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My neighbour bought a 3 and I know people with S's

They and everyone who has spent time in them (I'm not among them) loves them.

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20 minutes ago, foamy1946 said:

what happens to all the batteries at the end of their life?

Recycled in a 3rd world cuntry, usually.

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wish list for electric vehicle: 

a small to midsize chassis with a robust 4 wheel drive-train. 

interchangeable bodies: sedan, convertible sportscarish thing, small van or pickup truck body. 

or baseline chassis and driver compartment with optional payload pods you could go swap in and out on demand at dealer facility. 

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I’d say fit and finish is below average for a $40k car in 2020, and actual depreciation (bought for, sold for) is higher than some claims, but that’s hard to determine because if you are buying new they always increase incentives around quarter end to move metal. If it’s a good example it won’t need much for regular service, getting repairs after an accident can take a long time. The smartphone of cars tech featured & disposable.

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6 hours ago, mikewof said:

Sure, the average home DIYer can change brake pads and light bulbs, but troubleshoot that supercomputer on wheels? Fix collision damage? Replace the batteries or manage the high voltage system?

I've watched these repairs on YouTube, and the DIYers doing them have resources far beyond the average shade-tree mechanic.

WHY THE FUCK would you want to even bother.  The Tesla warranty is something like 8 year, 150K warranty on batteries and drive train.  4 year bumper to bumper.  

The best thing I like about the Teslas is the lack of MX or even scheduled MX.  I don't have to take a day off from work to have to go into the shop every 5K miles to get the required oil change to keep from voiding the warranty.  No fluids, no oil, no fuel.  I cackle with glee everytime I pass a gas station and the people are lining up for 15 min to pay $3+ a gallon.  I've stopped at a gas station exactly once in 6 months and that was to use their windshield squeegy to clean some bugs off on a roadtrip.  

The other thing I like is their mobile service.  I had a driver window that was sticking.  I scheduled it on the Tesla app for when I was home.  The Tesla service rep showed up at my house, fixed it and was gone in 30 min while I was having lunch inside and surfing on SA.  

I just did a road trip to Yellowstone and Grand Tetons for a week.  I put something like 2600 miles on the car in that week with the trip there and back plus all the driving in the parks to get to scenic spots to go hiking.  Total car operating cost....... exactly $0 because "Tesla Supercharger for life" came with the car package (it was not an add on).  I ran the numbers and it costs me something like $8 to charge up from empty at home.  

I try not to be like IB's LDS missionaries.  But yes, they are amazing cars.  I got the X Long Range and SWMBO got a basic 3 for around town.  She charges maybe every other day at home.  I charge overnight at home while sleeping because I have about a 69 mile roundtrip commute and it uses almost exactly 30% battery RT.  So I could easily do two full commutes without charging.  But I like having the spare if I want to run errands after work.

And SO FAST!!!!

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5 hours ago, mikewof said:

So, is there anyone in this thread who has an EV as their one and only vehicle?

Yes.

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46 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

  The Tesla warranty is something like 8 year, 150K warranty on batteries and drive train.  

  • Model 3 and Model Y Standard or Standard Range Plus - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
  • Model 3 and Model Y Long Range or Performance - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

Yes.

If it's you JBSF? Are you the one person here who has an EV as his only vehicle?

 

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Next door neighbor has a Tesla 3. Absolutely loves it.  He’s driven it to FLA from the greater Chicagoland area, Louisville, Ky; and western Minnesota.  No range anxiety.

He also has a Nissan Leaf and recently put solar panels on the roof of his house.  
My wife drove the Tesla and says that A Tesla will be her next vehicle.

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

WHY THE FUCK would you want to even bother.  The Tesla warranty is something like 8 year, 150K warranty on batteries and drive train.  4 year bumper to bumper.  

The best thing I like about the Teslas is the lack of MX or even scheduled MX.  I don't have to take a day off from work to have to go into the shop every 5K miles to get the required oil change to keep from voiding the warranty.  No fluids, no oil, no fuel.  I cackle with glee everytime I pass a gas station and the people are lining up for 15 min to pay $3+ a gallon.  I've stopped at a gas station exactly once in 6 months and that was to use their windshield squeegy to clean some bugs off on a roadtrip.  

The other thing I like is their mobile service.  I had a driver window that was sticking.  I scheduled it on the Tesla app for when I was home.  The Tesla service rep showed up at my house, fixed it and was gone in 30 min while I was having lunch inside and surfing on SA.  

I just did a road trip to Yellowstone and Grand Tetons for a week.  I put something like 2600 miles on the car in that week with the trip there and back plus all the driving in the parks to get to scenic spots to go hiking.  Total car operating cost....... exactly $0 because "Tesla Supercharger for life" came with the car package (it was not an add on).  I ran the numbers and it costs me something like $8 to charge up from empty at home.  

I try not to be like IB's LDS missionaries.  But yes, they are amazing cars.  I got the X Long Range and SWMBO got a basic 3 for around town.  She charges maybe every other day at home.  I charge overnight at home while sleeping because I have about a 69 mile roundtrip commute and it uses almost exactly 30% battery RT.  So I could easily do two full commutes without charging.  But I like having the spare if I want to run errands after work.

And SO FAST!!!!

I guess you have a point. If you're the kind of man who doesn't like to get his hands dirty working on his own equipment, then the Tesla vehicles couldn't be better a fit.

I've noticed that a lot of soccer moms drive those Teslas around Colorado, lately. Their previous vehicle of choice was the four-door Jeep, and before that the Lexus SUV, and before than any brand of minivan. Weird 1990s-era box cars from Japan before that, and station wagons before that. The station wagon era for some odd reason was the longest one, lasted a few decades.

But anyway, I guess we're now in the era ot the electric robot cars.

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You guys have talked about the good, the bad...but what about the ugly.

Automotive history is kinder to some designs than others.

I suspect that a couple of decades from now, that travesty of a design that constitutes their suv model will fall somewhere between a Gremlin and an AMC Pacer.

 

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15 hours ago, Burning Man said:

It's fucking FAST!

The only thing I don't like about the 3 is that all the displays are offset - there is nothing right in front of your eyes.  You get used to it, to see stuff like speed etc out of the corner of your eye.  But it's just not natural.  

The performance 3 went head to head with a M3 and came to a draw barely losing the 0-100-0 test.  It’s quite a bit cheaper as well. That said I don’t love the interior.  Instrumentation in particular.  The Porsche Taycan does this much better.  I would consider an electric car but the upcoming  Audi E-tron is probably priced at100k.  My pick would be the BMW i4 (Probably $65-70k, or 750 on lease.  I kind of like ICE car though so we’ll see.

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

If it's you JBSF? Are you the one person here who has an EV as his only vehicle?

Yes.  Both vehicles are full EV.

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

I guess you have a point. If you're the kind of man who doesn't like to get his hands dirty working on his own equipment, then the Tesla vehicles couldn't be better a fit.

Absolutely.  I've never been a gear head.  NTTAWWT.  But time is money to me and I get better enjoyment out of being outside doing stuff on my days off than have my head in a motor and grease up to my tits.  I'd rather throw some $$ at some dude who knows what he's doing and save that time for something else.  

Honestly, if I could pay someone to clean my guns after going shooting, I would do that too.  :P

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51 minutes ago, fufkin said:

You guys have talked about the good, the bad...but what about the ugly.

Automotive history is kinder to some designs than others.

I suspect that a couple of decades from now, that travesty of a design that constitutes their suv model will fall somewhere between a Gremlin and an AMC Pacer.

 

Are you talking about the X or the truck?  The cyber truck is beyond ugly, like double ugly.  The X has grown on me, I wasn't a fan of the egg shape at the beginning, but it's actually grown on me now and the utility of the SUV is great.  Its all the time AWD and you can raise and lower the suspension, a bit.  Nothing too drastic, but it does allow me to access some hiking trails that a normal car could not go down due to some really rutted gravel/dirt roads.  

Actually, the 3 aesthetically to me, also is not the most beautiful car out there.  The grumpy face from the nose is like WTF were they thinking.  But the car from other angles is quite pleasing but not exceptional.  The 3 also has far more room inside and in the trunk than I ever imagined.  

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40 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

The performance 3 went head to head with a M3 and came to a draw barely losing the 0-100-0 test.  It’s quite a bit cheaper as well. That said I don’t love the interior.  Instrumentation in particular.  The Porsche Taycan does this much better.  I would consider an electric car but the upcoming  Audi E-tron is probably priced at100k.  My pick would be the BMW i4 (Probably $65-70k, or 750 on lease.  I kind of like ICE car though so we’ll see.

I think where the next Tesla model needs to be is an entry level consumer sports car similar to a Porsche Boxster or 911 Cab and price it in the $50-60K range.  If I were Elon, I would take the model 3 chassis and motor and redesign the body to make it a stylish coupe and have a convertible option as well.  It would crush most Non-turbo Porsches out there.  It would outsell and outperform almost anything in its class and $ range, IMHO.  

 

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1 hour ago, fufkin said:

You guys have talked about the good, the bad...but what about the ugly.

Automotive history is kinder to some designs than others.

I suspect that a couple of decades from now, that travesty of a design that constitutes their suv model will fall somewhere between a Gremlin and an AMC Pacer.

 

All the Teslas look to me like they were styled by a talented amateur, not a professional. The side views are good but the front and rear look a bit off, as do the details like the door handles, the serifed font of the early S, and other little things. The X just looks proportionally wrong, with too narrow a wheelbase for its height. Of all of them, the 3 looks the best to me unless you uglify it with those stupid Aero wheels. Of course, this is coming from a serial minivan owner, so you know how important styling is to me.

All that said, once the kids leave, I could see myself in a model 3 or Y.

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1 hour ago, fufkin said:

You guys have talked about the good, the bad...but what about the ugly.

Automotive history is kinder to some designs than others.

I suspect that a couple of decades from now, that travesty of a design that constitutes their suv model will fall somewhere between a Gremlin and an AMC Pacer.

 

I find that both the Gremlin and the Pacer were well-designed cars, they are getting expensive too, the collectors community is beginning to hold onto them.

There are some genuinely beautiful car designs of history. The Teslas have some design problems because they have essentially shoehorned the electric drive system into a body still essentially designed for an ICE. So form doesn't follow function, and we are left with Tesla's blank-stare of its glassed-over radiator intake, we are left with rear wheel wells that were designed to hold the suspension of a front-engine, rear-drive car. I believe that at some point inthefuture.com, we will see these affectations as something between benign and hideous, like the airplane fins on a 1957 Dodge Dart. The Fisker Karma has at least made an attempt to escape the ICE design envelope, but I'm not sure it will weather too well either. It's not a great time for beautiful cars, even the "beautiful" designs by Audi, BMW, Lexus and Mercedes have the look of appliances. iStream;s analysis of their designs is right on target I think.

On the other hand, Tesla's new truck may end up "beautiful" because the form follows the function. In a design sense, it's the opposite of the Honda Ridgeline. The truck doesn't have a conventional frame, so the weird "cyber" angles to the exoskeleton create a narrative for the design of that vehicle ... it's that shape because that shape is stronger. It's not unlike what Bertone and Pinninfarina accomplished in the 1960s and 1970s ... all of a sudden there were compact, high-output powerplants, and the Italian designers turned the world of automotive design on its head. Within a few years, the Japanese, Germans and Americans all had outright stolen the Italian design envelopes, and of course, fucked them up so they no longer worked, but there were a few successes in there.

If you want an iconic design, maybe wait for the Tesla truck? I read that they will not be painted, and will be instead sold with raw steel. I love that.

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

I find that both the Gremlin and the Pacer were well-designed cars, they are getting expensive too, the collectors community is beginning to hold onto them.

There are some genuinely beautiful car designs of history. The Teslas have some design problems because they have essentially shoehorned the electric drive system into a body still essentially designed for an ICE. So form doesn't follow function, and we are left with Tesla's blank-stare of its glassed-over radiator intake, we are left with rear wheel wells that were designed to hold the suspension of a front-engine, rear-drive car. I believe that at some point inthefuture.com, we will see these affectations as something between benign and hideous, like the airplane fins on a 1957 Dodge Dart. The Fisker Karma has at least made an attempt to escape the ICE design envelope, but I'm not sure it will weather too well either. It's not a great time for beautiful cars, even the "beautiful" designs by Audi, BMW, Lexus and Mercedes have the look of appliances. iStream;s analysis of their designs is right on target I think.

On the other hand, Tesla's new truck may end up "beautiful" because the form follows the function. In a design sense, it's the opposite of the Honda Ridgeline. The truck doesn't have a conventional frame, so the weird "cyber" angles to the exoskeleton create a narrative for the design of that vehicle ... it's that shape because that shape is stronger. It's not unlike what Bertone and Pinninfarina accomplished in the 1960s and 1970s ... all of a sudden there were compact, high-output powerplants, and the Italian designers turned the world of automotive design on its head. Within a few years, the Japanese, Germans and Americans all had outright stolen the Italian design envelopes, and of course, fucked them up so they no longer worked, but there were a few successes in there.

If you want an iconic design, maybe wait for the Tesla truck? I read that they will not be painted, and will be instead sold with raw steel. I love that.

More word salad from Mikey.  He loves to hear himself talk.

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1 hour ago, Fakenews said:

More word salad from Mikey.  He loves to hear himself talk.

As Sylvester J. Pussycat once said: “ the tediosity of it all.”

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1 hour ago, Fakenews said:

 

 

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Bowgirl has pretty much decided that the Y is her next car when we don't need the minivan anymore.  Good friend has a Model 3 and loves the shit out of it. I need towing capacity for the toys that float.  The cybertruck has the capacity, but I don't think we will see it produced for a few more years due to the pains it is having right now.  Rivian makes an awesome truck and SUV, but they also want almost $80K so that won't be happening.  

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My son, who works for Tesla got a Model 3 back in January, as an employee he did not get a discount on the price but got the extended battery and the 4 motors ( I think) and a charger. He really likes it, its a little plain but it grows on you. Installed the charger in his garage. He works from home so it works really well for him. It is really quick!!!  My car is fast but his quicker!

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Let's see, models S 3 X Y.

Musk, you old dog, you.

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7 hours ago, Big Bob said:

My son, who works for Tesla got a Model 3 back in January, as an employee he did not get a discount on the price but got the extended battery and the 4 motors ( I think) and a charger. He really likes it, its a little plain but it grows on you. Installed the charger in his garage. He works from home so it works really well for him. It is really quick!!!  My car is fast but his quicker!

 

I would be curious as to how much his electric bill increases, percentage-wise?

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15 hours ago, fufkin said:

You guys have talked about the good, the bad...but what about the ugly.

Automotive history is kinder to some designs than others.

I suspect that a couple of decades from now, that travesty of a design that constitutes their suv model will fall somewhere between a Gremlin and an AMC Pacer.

 

It’s an electric Aztek.

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10 hours ago, Jkdubz808 said:

Bowgirl has pretty much decided that the Y is her next car when we don't need the minivan anymore.  Good friend has a Model 3 and loves the shit out of it. I need towing capacity for the toys that float.  The cybertruck has the capacity, but I don't think we will see it produced for a few more years due to the pains it is having right now.  Rivian makes an awesome truck and SUV, but they also want almost $80K so that won't be happening.  

How much do you need to tow? The model Y can be factory upgraded with a hitch (for a mere $1000...) and they claim a 3500lb towing capacity.

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4 minutes ago, IStream said:

How much do you need to tow? The model Y can be factory upgraded with a hitch (for a mere $1000...) and they claim a 3500lb towing capacity.

Hard as is to believe, $1,000 is below average for a luxury car dealer installed hitch.  Porsche Macan or Cayenne is around $2K retrofit.  Less when factory installed. Easily 1/2 of the cost is reprogramming the various computers as plugging in trailer lights command different shift points, lighting monitors, and supposedly engine tune.     IIRC, an Acura MDX is around $1,500.  Not sure on BMW.  I would not take the risk of an aftermarket hitch given the cost of drive train repairs and the questionable warranty coverage if you had a failure.  

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3 hours ago, justsomeguy! said:

Let's see, models S 3 X Y.

Musk, you old dog, you.

And I am 100% certain that was in the original design memo...  

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26 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Hard as is to believe, $1,000 is below average for a luxury car dealer installed hitch.  Porsche Macan or Cayenne is around $2K retrofit.  Less when factory installed. Easily 1/2 of the cost is reprogramming the various computers as plugging in trailer lights command different shift points, lighting monitors, and supposedly engine tune.     IIRC, an Acura MDX is around $1,500.  Not sure on BMW.  I would not take the risk of an aftermarket hitch given the cost of drive train repairs and the questionable warranty coverage if you had a failure.  

I guess you're right. Gone are the days when I could drive the minivan down to U-Haul and buy a bolt-on hitch for $150.

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2 minutes ago, IStream said:

I guess you're right. Gone are the days when I could drive the minivan down to U-Haul and buy a bolt-on hitch for $150.

Whats a minivan?

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10 minutes ago, IStream said:

I guess you're right. Gone are the days when I could drive the minivan down to U-Haul and buy a bolt-on hitch for $150.

You still can and in many cases, you can buy the factory hitch for a few hundred online.  Considered that option on my CPO Macan.  I could have purchased the hitch and light interface box for about $500 or so.  That would have left the rear fascia pane. (cutout for the receiver) .  A private Porsche shop about 80 miles from here would do the programming for about $600 so I could have done for 11-1200 and used a cutoff wheel to make a hole for the receiver.  I made adding the hitch part of the deal so got a minimal discount from the selling dealer.  Basically, I could have maybe saved $300 and had a hacked up installation and risked warranty on the PDK and transfer case.  Decided against that on a ~$50K purchase.  

If it was out of warranty I might have made a different decision.  

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8 hours ago, IStream said:

How much do you need to tow? The model Y can be factory upgraded with a hitch (for a mere $1000...) and they claim a 3500lb towing capacity.

Need at least 5K.  Rivian claims more than that as does the cybertruck.  The Model X can tow 5K, but that's $80K.

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23 hours ago, Jkdubz808 said:

Bowgirl has pretty much decided that the Y is her next car when we don't need the minivan anymore.  Good friend has a Model 3 and loves the shit out of it. I need towing capacity for the toys that float.  The cybertruck has the capacity, but I don't think we will see it produced for a few more years due to the pains it is having right now.  Rivian makes an awesome truck and SUV, but they also want almost $80K so that won't be happening.  

Yup, But Ford/GM/FiatCrysler has also decreed a truck should cost $80K. Was in a Ford/lincoln dealer the other day (SWMBO want's to replace her MK-Z)  and the truck in the showroom listed for ~95K. Sure, it was a nice truck.... but sheesh.  7 year financing for 0 down........ Good golly, most of flyover country you can get a decent house for that. 

 

Tow 5K? Get a gasser (or overkill with a diesel) . That's fine. Horses for courses. 5K's not that much, but unless the distance to the ramp was quite short, I don't think electric would excel in the task. 4wd is pretty necessary on boat ramps.....

 

 

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16 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

I would be curious as to how much his electric bill increases, percentage-wise?

billy,

He is not concerned about the extra cost of electricity to charge the tesla so he has not kept track. He just wanted a car that he helped to design. Electricity is fairly cheap out here in the Seattle area.

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50 minutes ago, gptyk said:

Yup, But Ford/GM/FiatCrysler has also decreed a truck should cost $80K. Was in a Ford/lincoln dealer the other day (SWMBO want's to replace her MK-Z)  and the truck in the showroom listed for ~95K. Sure, it was a nice truck.... but sheesh.  7 year financing for 0 down........ Good golly, most of flyover country you can get a decent house for that. 

 

Tow 5K? Get a gasser (or overkill with a diesel) . That's fine. Horses for courses. 5K's not that much, but unless the distance to the ramp was quite short, I don't think electric would excel in the task. 4wd is pretty necessary on boat ramps.....

 

 

Oh I know about the prices of trucks. Midsize SUVs have been my go-to's for the last few years.  Honda Pilot is what I currently have, tows like a dream and has 4x4.  Most midsize SUVs have 5k of towing with the right packages so I'll probably stay in that class since its affordable (most brand new mid-size SUvs are $42-45K).

 

Bowgirl still wants a Model Y.  We live in hurricane country so one car needs to be gas in case we need to evacuate (gas stations are still way more prominent down here than charging stations).

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14 hours ago, IStream said:

I guess you're right. Gone are the days when I could drive the minivan down to U-Haul and buy a bolt-on hitch for $150.

I don't think those days are gone.  Now, though, you buy the hitch from Amazon.  Still $150 or so.

https://www.amazon.ca/CURT-13119-Class-Receiver-Hitch/dp/B007JEJQP0/ref=sr_1_3?crid=EAPGFGSDMI85&dchild=1&keywords=honda+pilot+trailer+hitch&qid=1596521548&sprefix=honda+pilot+trailer+%2Caps%2C225&sr=8-3

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4 hours ago, Rain Man said:

 

$142 at Rock Auto for our truck....

 

image.thumb.png.1667c90535ebd228684263022ad67d0e.png

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Yeah, but but to IB's point, those aren't German/electric luxury automobiles.

I don't have a garage and park on the street. Between that and my teenagers, I'm a long way off from having a luxury automobile.

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On 8/2/2020 at 5:35 PM, IStream said:

All that said, once the kids leave, I could see myself in a model 3 or Y.

I like the looks of the Y slighter better.

 

 

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On 8/3/2020 at 5:10 AM, billy backstay said:

 

I would be curious as to how much his electric bill increases, percentage-wise?

I running two cars with one home 220V charger installed.  We alternate days in the garage to charge or Swmbo charges during the day while I'm at work.  Honestly, I'm not seeing much difference.  I'd have to dig into the numbers to really know, but it's not even really noticeable as in there is no "HOLY FUCK HONEY, look at the electric Bill".  And it seems to be more than offset by the lack of gasoline charges.  By a lot. 

Before I bought the car, I ran the numbers on my commute and I've got about an 80 mile RT to work on a 75mph highway.  I often run a couple of errands after work plus the usual weekends.  Compared to my previous SUV (a 2017 Ford Explorer) that got about 20mpg - at 90 miles per day and $3.50/gal for gas - that's $472 in gas per month for just one car.  My total electric bill in the NV summer at 105F everyday and running the A/C, 2 tesla chargers, a 220V hot tub jaccuzi every night and other normal electrical uses - my highest electric bill for the month of july was ~$425.  I'm betting the tesla charging two cars AT MOST is adding a $150 a month.  Probably more around $100 or less because $400+ NV summer time bills are the norm here.  

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On 8/3/2020 at 8:13 AM, Innocent Bystander said:

Hard as is to believe, $1,000 is below average for a luxury car dealer installed hitch.  Porsche Macan or Cayenne is around $2K retrofit.  Less when factory installed. Easily 1/2 of the cost is reprogramming the various computers as plugging in trailer lights command different shift points, lighting monitors, and supposedly engine tune.     IIRC, an Acura MDX is around $1,500.  Not sure on BMW.  I would not take the risk of an aftermarket hitch given the cost of drive train repairs and the questionable warranty coverage if you had a failure.  

Yep, totally agree.  I think the issue with towing is the battery range goes WAAAY down quickly.  I know when I drive in pretty hilly terrain at any decent speeds, the range is a fair amount less than on the flats.  Even more so if there are steep climbs.  You gain some of it back downhill, but not all.  I can only imagine towing anything would be worse.

 

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