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AJ Oliver

75th anniversary of a great crime

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Just now, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Those were both strategies that came about after bombing began. Not the entire war. 

OK - most of the war then. The RAF got onto it because the Luftwaffe did it first, even if it was because they were lost, and we didn't do a lot of city bombing at first because Japan was out of range.

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AJ - just to give you all some props, I sure do hope that 100 years from now someone is sending around photos of Hiroshima and saying "Don't ever let this happen again". I would hate for memory to fade to the point launching nukes suddenly doesn't look so bad.

 

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7 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

AJ - just to give you all some props, I sure do hope that 100 years from now someone is sending around photos of Hiroshima and saying "Don't ever let this happen again". I would hate for memory to fade to the point launching nukes suddenly doesn't look so bad.

Thanks, . .  how about if we give this sorry-assed thread a rest ? 

I have read your comments with attention - not always in agreement, but that is life as we know it. 

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On 8/18/2020 at 9:32 AM, AJ Oliver said:

But you lack the stones and the intellect to say why. 

It was gibberish.  
 

why do you think it takes stones to post on the internet?   

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6 hours ago, Rok Dog said:

It was gibberish.  

What were you unable to grasp?

That millions of Americans in 1945 opposed nuking Japan? 

And that among their number were a number of folks in the military. 

Now is that so hard ? 

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International treaty to ban nuclear weapons about to take effect . .    Thanks Honduras !!

Veterans For Peace and its Golden Rule peace vessel is proud to be a part of the global coalition that got it done. 

One of VFP's more interesting members is a former Commander of a nuclear armed submarine. 

Many of the people who know the most about nukes also oppose them the most - Wm. Perry, Robert McNamara, Gen. Lee Butler and many more. 

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/10/25/victory-humanity-treaty-banning-nuclear-weapons-take-effect-honduras-becomes-50th

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On 8/11/2020 at 12:06 PM, kent_island_sailor said:

I am profoundly grateful I don't have to make those decisions. The choices are to do something monstrous or else have something even WORSE happen. I think we lost a man literally every minute the war dragged on at the end.

Okinawa was a man a minute - for 3 months.

That was for an outlying rock - imagine what the home islands would have cost.

The revisionist historians view of The Bombs is completely devoid of any historical knowledge - perfect political correctness in other words.

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On 8/20/2020 at 6:34 AM, AJ Oliver said:

What were you unable to grasp?

That millions of Americans in 1945 opposed nuking Japan? 

And that among their number were a number of folks in the military. 

Now is that so hard ? 

Where the fuck did you get that?

Only a handful of people in the entire world even knew about the bomb.

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Where the fuck did you get that?

Only a handful of people in the entire world even knew about the bomb.

Come on, normally you do not go all ignorant on us. 

Gallop polls, 1945 

Do some homework. 

Why can't you be civil in this discussion ? 

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Well, a small argument could be made that without the nukes more Japanese civilians may had died using conventional techniques over a longer period of time including more cities burned down using incendiaries before unconditional surrender  occurred. Not an expert, just putting forth a possibility.

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3 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Yes, that argument has been made - see upthead  

But the reason I am posting on this subject again is this . .  

https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/10/1076082 

image.jpeg.840b561b08ad3e3b638f190edc3689f9.jpeg

Ok.will read up. All for nuclear weapons at my house though. No argument here on that

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If my neighbor is pointing a gun at me and I am pointing a gun at him, he may one day say this is a terrible way to live, we should ban guns. I would reply that I wholeheartedly agree and I will throw my gun in the river about 30 seconds after he does the same.

This will work out about like you expect it would, especially when you add in a few more neighbors and someone realizes the last person left with a gun will be king of  the neighborhood :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Come on, normally you do not go all ignorant on us. 

Gallop polls, 1945 

Do some homework. 

Why can't you be civil in this discussion ? 

I'm very up front about why - I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses

How fast did that poll gallop?

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3 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Why can't you be civil in this discussion ? 

Because, maybe at a subconscious level, they are incabable of rationally analysing the topic.

Don't look too closely at the sacred cow.

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Okinawa was a man a minute - for 3 months.

That was for an outlying rock - imagine what the home islands would have cost.

You accept that because it makes you feel better.  Amazing thing self delusion.

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2 hours ago, astro said:

You accept that because it makes you feel better.  Amazing thing self delusion.

At the risk of repeating myself;

intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

At the risk of repeating myself;

intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses

How do you live with yourself?

The Japs were fucked.  The US just wanted to send a message to Russia, at the cost of innocent Japanese school children and women.

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13 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Where the fuck did you get that?

Only a handful of people in the entire world even knew about the bomb.

Normally you and @kent_island_sailor make a lot of sense; but you seem to become unhinged when it comes to weapons of mass murder. 

You claim to be intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses - If so, you should apologize for your post above, which is just plain nuts. 

Here is why: Nowhere did I write that the Gallup poll cited above was taken BEFORE the bombing - in fact it was taken during the first few weeks AFTER the bombing. 

And it showed that millions of Americans opposed it. 

You seem to take personal offense at the notion that any USAean would have been against the nuking of Japan AT THAT TIME. 

That is your problem, get over it. 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Normally you and @kent_island_sailor make a lot of sense; but you seem to become unhinged when it comes to weapons of mass murder. 

You claim to be intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses - If so, you should apologize for your post above, which is just plain nuts. 

Here is why: Nowhere did I write that the Gallup poll cited above was taken BEFORE the bombing - in fact it was taken during the first few weeks AFTER the bombing. 

And it showed that millions of Americans opposed it. 

You seem to take personal offense at the notion that any USAean would have been against the nuking of Japan AT THAT TIME. 

That is your problem, get over it. 

 

 

At some point you are going to have to realize not everyone shares your opinion and never will.

I actually care very little for decades-old opinion polls answered by people with very incomplete knowledge. They probably didn't know all those people were going to be killed anyway, just over more time and with gelled gasoline instead of uranium. I am not sure if anyone realized back then how nasty Gen. LeMay's bombing campaign was. He even admitted himself he would hang as a war criminal if the Japanese ever got ahold of him.

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7 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

At some point you are going to have to realize not everyone shares your opinion . . 

Well, since I cite polls showing most USAeans approved of the nuking, it should be clear that I "realize" not everyone agrees with me. 

And now you want to move the goalposts - saying in effect that, OK in 1945 millions of Americans opposed the bombing, but they were misinformed. 

Sure. 

Vets For Peace takes great pride in supporting the global movement against nuclear weapons. 

And we even have a Navy - check that photo from SD Fleet Week. The sailors are saluting the Golden Rule !!  

image.jpeg.bccaaa32a74791fd7629fae3b9a72a68.jpeg

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Even if they weren't misinformed, so what?

Who could look at the results and feel happy about it? I strongly suspect that due to Japan not allowing USA based reporters to work from Japan* during the war and not wanting to publicize the results of our bombing campaigns themselves, this was the first look most Americans had at what we had been doing to Japan. The Tokyo fire bombing raids could have produced a shit-ton of photos of napalm-fried kids too.

 

* weird little-known tidbit from the war, UPI or AP or maybe both were paying German soldiers for photos and stories somehow on the down-low.

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For those of you who are lurking and/or are undecided on this issue  . . 

I would ask that you try to consider the full range of costs and benefits for nations that have nuclear weapons. 

Benefits - yes, there are some. 

Costs -  monetary, close to $ 6 Trillion since 1943 

              radiation - damage to humans - as many as 300,000 US deaths (we nuked ourselves) 

                    "           damage to environment - Portsmouth OH, Savannah River, Rocky Flats, Hanford - all disasters 

               psychological costs - one cannot possess such weapons without living in an atmosphere of hate and fear. That takes a toll. 

               Opportunity costs - we could have rebuilt the planet for what we have spent on nukes 

Please support Vets For Peace and ICAN in the global effort to abolish nuclear weapons. 

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How about baby steps - first thing is to reduce our nuclear weapon stockpile to just enough to make sure no one nukes us or our allies and make it clear that our doctrine forbids the use of them for anything but responding to other nukes.

 

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3 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Here is why: Nowhere did I write that the Gallup poll cited above was taken BEFORE the bombing - in fact it was taken during the first few weeks AFTER the bombing. 

And it showed that millions of Americans opposed it.

And what would they have said on August 5, 1945?

Your BS is nothing but revisionist history.

But I'm sure you see it as correcting history.

One thing I can tell you - if you were a grunt on a troop ship near Japan on August 5th you would have said "Hell Yes!"

And if you were the parent of that grunt you'd have said the same thing.

Hindsight is not only 20/20, it's easy and intellectually lazy. It's much the same as those people who agree with the last person they listened to.

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

One thing I can tell you - if you were a grunt on a troop ship near Japan on August 5th you would have said "Hell Yes!"

I can tell you categorically that statement is not true. 

Naval Commander Al Bigelow was just one of many thousands. 

You are the revisionist 

And you seem to be averse to providing sources to support your claims. 

You keep babbling about "hindsight" and I keep giving you sources from that era. 

BTW nearby to you San Juan Island, site of the legendary Pig War, is home to a 

number of Vets For Peace boosters. 

Good thing they did not have nukes back then!! It might well have ended badly for that pig. 

Pig War (1859) - Wikipedia

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Whatever. :rolleyes:

He thinks what he thinks.
My father was on Okinawa. If the rest of Japan was ANYTHING like that place the A-bombs would look trivial compared to what would have been left of Japan.

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9 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

A-bombs would look trivial

Really ?? 

87% Of Americans Still Believe Bombing Of Hiroshima Was Pretty Awesome –  Waterford Whispers News

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Yes, really.

And the death toll exceeded Hiroshima.

image.png.8b0fc6160ac0b1d95256dc049a92c951.png

image.png.63f0c0b3ae7e8ac8605c96889e63995d.png

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Not to mention the innocent men, women and children civilian deaths and maiming when they firebombed the snot out of Tokyo a civilian target. :(

09ww11-firebombing-01-mediumSquareAt3X.j

and the victors still occupy the region three quarters of a century later. 

Time to bring the troops home?  

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22 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

He thinks what he thinks.
My father was on Okinawa. If the rest of Japan was ANYTHING like that place the A-bombs would look trivial compared to what would have been left of Japan.

And is that why the entire US Navy command in 1945 opposed the nuking? 

AT THAT TIME - not hindsight, no siree. 

Sorry I let you deflect from ICAN's great work just this week. 

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2 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

And is that why the entire US Navy command in 1945 opposed the nuking?

Are you taking lessons from Trump?

Shortly before the end of fighting on Okinawa in late June 1945, President Harry Truman met with the Joint Chiefs and stated that he did not want “another Okinawa.” By this time the Joint Chiefs were all lined up in favor of using the atomic bomb, if it worked, which had yet to be proven. (Fleet Admiral William Leahy was convinced that it would not work.)  Casualty estimates for an invasion of Japan were being formulated, and they were extremely high. The expected casualties in an invasion of Japan were so appalling that there was no obvious dissent among the most senior U.S. military leadership about using the weapon as soon as it became available.

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Are you taking lessons from Trump?

Shortly before the end of fighting on Okinawa in late June 1945, President Harry Truman met with the Joint Chiefs and stated that he did not want “another Okinawa.” By this time the Joint Chiefs were all lined up in favor of using the atomic bomb, if it worked, which had yet to be proven. (Fleet Admiral William Leahy was convinced that it would not work.)  Casualty estimates for an invasion of Japan were being formulated, and they were extremely high. The expected casualties in an invasion of Japan were so appalling that there was no obvious dissent among the most senior U.S. military leadership about using the weapon as soon as it became available.

Besides for that I doubt the *entire* command structure of the Navy even knew there was such a thing as an atomic bomb :rolleyes:

 

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9 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

And is that why the entire US Navy command in 1945 opposed the nuking? 

AT THAT TIME - not hindsight, no siree. 

Sorry I let you deflect from ICAN's great work just this week. 

The Navy was probably opposed to it because it was the Army Air Corps (already well on it's way to being a seperate service branch) was doing the nuking.

The Navy thought THEY should be the ones doing the nuking.

- DSK

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30 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

The Navy was probably opposed to it because it was the Army Air Corps (already well on it's way to being a seperate service branch) was doing the nuking.

The Navy thought THEY should be the ones doing the nuking.

- DSK

THAT certainly seems likely. Perhaps not widely known is how vicious the infighting could be. I wish I could find the quote from that era i read long ago - It was something like a new Navy officer shows up at the Pentagon. His boss asks him who the enemy is and he says "Germany? Japan?" and his boss says "Hell no - they're the opposition.The ARMY is the enemy!"

There was some fuckery going on where the Army Air Corp decided bombers didn't need escorts, they ended up being shot down at a rapid rate to the point bomber crews were getting "lost" and landing in Switzerland for ski vacations, and they flat-out turned down using Corsairs as escorts because they were Navy/Marine airplanes :rolleyes:

 

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Come to think of it, I bet there was a fear the Air Corp/Air Force would run around A-bombing various places and making wars last about a day and thus make the rest of the armed forces redundant :rolleyes:

Credit to the USA we didn't actually do that, for about 3 years we were literally KING OF THE WORLD.

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Are you taking lessons from Trump?

Shortly before the end of fighting on Okinawa in late June 1945, President Harry Truman met with the Joint Chiefs and stated that he did not want “another Okinawa.” By this time the Joint Chiefs were all lined up in favor of using the atomic bomb, if it worked, which had yet to be proven. (Fleet Admiral William Leahy was convinced that it would not work.)  Casualty estimates for an invasion of Japan were being formulated, and they were extremely high. The expected casualties in an invasion of Japan were so appalling that there was no obvious dissent among the most senior U.S. military leadership about using the weapon as soon as it became available.

I think you posted those lies on purpose - shame on you. 

The comment about Leahy is a give-away. Here are his REAL views. 

“It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.”

– Admiral William Leahy

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

The admiral was wrong.

He may have been wrong, but that is no excuse whatsoever for you to post lies about him. 

Again, shame on you !! 

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On 8/18/2020 at 9:08 PM, AJ Oliver said:

Thanks, . .  how about if we give this sorry-assed thread a rest ? 

I have read your comments with attention - not always in agreement, but that is life as we know it. 

Not much of a rest,  Professor..

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2 minutes ago, nolatom said:

Not much of a rest,  Professor..

The reason I posted again was to announce the success of the global initiative to ban nuclear weapons . . 

It was our local pro-nukistas who again raised the issue of the Hiroshima bombing. 

Come on people, THINK !! 

One of the old discussions we used to have about nuclear weapons control was the danger that a mentally unstable demagogue 

might be elected Prez of the US. The pro-nuke side confidently predicted that such a thing could never happen . . 

Then we got Trump. 

When you back nukes, you are backing people like Drumph with their fingers on the button. 

And don't forget the huge costs of nukes: financial, environmental, human  

It's insane, and Vets For Peace is proud to stand with ICAN to work to abolish those instruments of Satan. 

And y'all can take your concerns to Tom Rogers, former nuke sub commander, now an anti-nuke activist . . 

https://www.kitsapdailynews.com/news/sub-commander-is-now-an-anti-nuke-activist-tom-rogers-was-arrested-while-blocking-bangor-gates/

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9 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

I think you posted those lies on purpose - shame on you.

Oh fuck off.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Oh fuck off.

Try to think through your posts above . . 

You need to apologize. 

You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not 

entitled to lie. 

When you do, people will call you out. 

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