GeorgeT415

Finn rigging

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On 9/3/2020 at 8:52 AM, surf nazi said:

Just get the yellow three strand polypropylene line. Cheap, floats and easy to find everywhere.

Yep. WM on Rosecrans has the stuff.  Theirs is blue poly pro. Class rule says min diameter is 8mm.  

You tie it to the mast, pass it through the ring on the toe line, and back to the mast or traveler. I like the traveler so its easier to bail in flight in case of emergency.  That ends up chafing the towline at the ring, so I buy 2 at a time (and be ready for it to break after a few weekends)

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Had to bail on Sunday - boat leaks like old canoe.   Haha aplenty as we had to wait 20 mins for boat to drain on edge of dock before we (4 guys) could haul the beast out.

Good fleet, moderate conditions, good RC and the SDYC in full colors.   A fine day sailing.

Thanks guys for waiting for me.  I probably cost you 90 mins time overall on the day.   Did not want to do that to you again today.  
 

Will flip the Newport, fix the leak(s) and continue training.   I felt privileged to be welcomed by a great bunch of talented guys.

Finns Rule.

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20 hours ago, blunderfull said:

Had to bail on Sunday - boat leaks like old canoe.   Haha aplenty as we had to wait 20 mins for boat to drain on edge of dock before we (4 guys) could haul the beast out.

Good fleet, moderate conditions, good RC and the SDYC in full colors.   A fine day sailing.

Thanks guys for waiting for me.  I probably cost you 90 mins time overall on the day.   Did not want to do that to you again today.  
 

Will flip the Newport, fix the leak(s) and continue training.   I felt privileged to be welcomed by a great bunch of talented guys.

Finns Rule.

Was it windy on Sunday?  The results turned into alphabet soup on Sunday.  My buddy Ryan had his mainsheet base fail and the Harken swivel popped up and no more mainsheet block.  

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6 minutes ago, WCB said:

Was it windy on Sunday?  The results turned into alphabet soup on Sunday.  My buddy Ryan had his mainsheet base fail and the Harken swivel popped up and no more mainsheet block.  

I left after Saturday racing.  Didn’t get to hook up with Ryan.  Once I got there it was all I could do to get sorted out and on the tow.

My halyard failed first race and had to tie off.

Is he keeping the Vanguard @ SDYC?

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16 minutes ago, blunderfull said:

I left after Saturday racing.  Didn’t get to hook up with Ryan.  Once I got there it was all I could do to get sorted out and on the tow.

My halyard failed first race and had to tie off.

Is he keeping the Vanguard @ SDYC?

Oh bummer...  I know he was late and couldn't race Saturday as he's busy at work and couldn't break free to rig up the Finn in time, ironically his day job is rigging.

Bummer about the halyard, that's never fun.

I believe he is.  He's going to be down there today, I presume for racing big boats, and he's going to start working on the mainsheet base repair.

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1 hour ago, WCB said:

Was it windy on Sunday?  The results turned into alphabet soup on Sunday.  My buddy Ryan had his mainsheet base fail and the Harken swivel popped up and no more mainsheet block.  

Light but then came on a bit in the last race. Wouldn't say "windy" except maybe on a San Diego scale.  Letters were from the U flag which went up after a couple general recalls/practice starts.

Fun event, great job by SDYC especially in not taking us as far south on Sunday.  Thats a looooong sail in 

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I expect that pulling the outhaul increases camber in the middle of the sail but the outhaul would need to ease at the same time to not flatten the foot at the same time. How are they actually used?  On which points of sail / shifting gears?

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1 hour ago, Kenny Dumas said:

I expect that pulling the outhaul increases camber in the middle of the sail but the outhaul would need to ease at the same time to not flatten the foot at the same time. How are they actually used?  On which points of sail / shifting gears?

 

Generally:

Outhaul flattens bottom of the sail

Inhaul flattens middle/opens leach

Cunningham flattens front/top

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Seems like tightening inhaul  is opposite of bending mast so would increase power in middle, assuming the outhaul is eased to match it. 

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Tightening controls (including the inhaul) flattens the sail

Easing controls (including the inhaul) makes the sail more round

Inhaul doesn't affect bend at all-its pulling against the gooseneck, about 6 inches above the deck.  Mast not so bendy in that area. 

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15 hours ago, some dude said:

Tightening controls (including the inhaul) flattens the sail

Easing controls (including the inhaul) makes the sail more round

Inhaul doesn't affect bend at all-its pulling against the gooseneck, about 6 inches above the deck.  Mast not so bendy in that area. 

Dacron sails are slow now but, they are still a hella lot fun to shape.  W/o other soft sails on course I was struggling to see how the laminate guys were moving the draft.   I hardly touched the outhaul and had a very ‘fat’ sail most of the day, trying to keep punching thru the short choppy waves in light breeze.   Played traveler lots trying to guess where the sweet spot is.   Played the board a fair bit downwind,  pulled all way up to experiment with how ‘slippery’ you can go thru gybes.  
 

When all else fails the constant is still sail it flat upwind.  Hike harder.   It’s going to be important to hook up with another Dacron rig and go upwind an hour or two to see what the trim should be.   

Many  guys were in knee pads and shorty neo-pants.   My Rooster farmer John with hiking pads were ok but overkill.   The knee pads on the Roosters are rough and irritating when they slipped down.

 

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24 minutes ago, blunderfull said:

Dacron sails are slow now but, they are still a hella lot fun to shape.  W/o other soft sails on course I was struggling to see how the laminate guys were moving the draft.   I hardly touched the outhaul and had a very ‘fat’ sail most of the day, trying to keep punching thru the short choppy waves in light breeze.   Played traveler lots trying to guess where the sweet spot is.   Played the board a fair bit downwind,  pulled all way up to experiment with how ‘slippery’ you can go thru gybes.  
 

When all else fails the constant is still sail it flat upwind.  Hike harder.   It’s going to be important to hook up with another Dacron rig and go upwind an hour or two to see what the trim should be.   

Many  guys were in knee pads and shorty neo-pants.   My Rooster farmer John with hiking pads were ok but overkill.   The knee pads on the Roosters are rough and irritating when they slipped down.

 

I can connect you with Ryan and the two of you should sail together.  He's running a dacron sail and aluminum mast on the '91 Vanguard Finn.  I'm sure that he'd like more time in the boat to get a feel for it.  

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On 9/15/2020 at 2:06 PM, Kenny Dumas said:

Of course pulling on everything makes it flatter. My question is:  When do you tighten the outhaul vs inhaul?

 

Always set inhaul first. Just try to make the tack area look right, no huge wrinkles , not nailed forward, just make it look smooth. Outhaul is set for sea state not breeze. flat water, tight outhaul, more waves, ease outhaul just enough to make it feel right. Loosen both downwind, outhaul eases about 3" tie your safety line so that it stops the outhaul there.    

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Ideas on how to flip over on trailer a slightly overweight Finn?    By yourself?   

Custom fittings that spin on bow/stern and a engine hoist might do it?  No overhead beams for a gantry rig - this is going down in the yard.
 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, blunderfull said:

Ideas on how to flip over on trailer a slightly overweight Finn?    By yourself?   

Custom fittings that spin on bow/stern and a engine hoist might do it?  No overhead beams for a gantry rig - this is going down in the yard.
 

 

 

 

I would roll slide it off the back of the trailer onto some grass, roll it over, and then slide it back onto the trailer carefully, all if getting another person or two to help isn't possible.  

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9 hours ago, WCB said:

I would roll slide it off the back of the trailer onto some grass, roll it over, and then slide it back onto the trailer carefully, all if getting another person or two to help isn't possible.  

Found boat shop with hoist.   Underground Finn network hookup.

”...or two...” been a prob.    Four guys to get off trlr at SDYC.   Ouch.     Will strip down (floorboard) before flipping.

 

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Boat flipped & bottom seems ok save for a few small divots/cracks around centerline.   Where’s all the water coming from?   Not easy to inspect c/b trunk from bottom, looks like I have to repair hull nicks first then flip boat and feel around deck joint inside of trunk.   If not c/b trunk leaks ( consensus) then where?

Question on old mast ring setup:   neoprene to seal deck opening?   Newer boats have the deck closed off at mast, so that’s a no brainer?
 

New floor:   Vince Valdes/Columbia said he could fabricate a new floor to replace old 3/4” plywood.   Haven’t weighed the wood floor but I would guess it’s north of 2O#.  Will be interesting to see how much weight I can shave off.   Will fix leak(s) then sail.   All’s good then go to the new floor.

Devoti uses carbon fiber on cockpit floor?  I did a floor replacement on a Laser with glass (wgt/glass? -I can’t remember). and it failed in six months.  Combination of me @ 225#, typically weak Laser design and my glassing skills.   I blew thru 3 diff cockpit floors in Lasers.

Modern carbon masts are similar in weight to Needlespar alum sections?     Lost the thread on this  - watched some guys step their carbon mast and it was a lot easier looking than lifting/balancing the Needlespar.  How can c/f mast be =/< Needlespar?

Newp Harbor launch ramp underneath PCH bridge in front of ocean canoe beach:   guy walked a Laser on light trailer down the beach to ramp, lifted the bollard up/out and had easy launch.  Never noticed the handles on bollard near bottom.  Worth noting as this will save a lot of time paddling out to harbor if you’re launchIng at Dunes on a typically light-air morning.

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On 9/16/2020 at 1:20 AM, blunderfull said:

Dacron sails are slow now but, they are still a hella lot fun to shape.  W/o other soft sails on course I was struggling to see how the laminate guys were moving the draft.   I hardly touched the outhaul and had a very ‘fat’ sail most of the day, trying to keep punching thru the short choppy waves in light breeze.   Played traveler lots trying to guess where the sweet spot is.   Played the board a fair bit downwind,  pulled all way up to experiment with how ‘slippery’ you can go thru gybes.  
 

 

I've been developing my own finn sails over the last couple of years (been sailmaking for 14 years now) and I'm having good results with my dacron mainsail so far.

Sure it's not going to compare with a brand new laminate sail at the Olympic level but when you need the sail to have a good shape for longer than 50 hours or so it makes sense.

The fabric I use in only 0.3oz heavier than the Maxx fabric, and going off the specs sheets for the two fabrics is actually stronger!

The real benefit will be later on in the season when a laminate sail will have shrunk heaps while the dacron one has not.

 

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11 hours ago, Longman said:

I've been developing my own finn sails over the last couple of years (been sailmaking for 14 years now) and I'm having good results with my dacron mainsail so far.

Sure it's not going to compare with a brand new laminate sail at the Olympic level but when you need the sail to have a good shape for longer than 50 hours or so it makes sense.

The fabric I use in only 0.3oz heavier than the Maxx fabric, and going off the specs sheets for the two fabrics is actually stronger!

The real benefit will be later on in the season when a laminate sail will have shrunk heaps while the dacron one has not.

 

Interesting.   What’s the price on your Dacron?

In daft moments I imagine ‘soft sail/alum stick’ becomes a retro thing.    
 

Then, speaking from recent experience, you get off the line in good shape but,  10-15 boat lengths later you & your well sorted out Dacron are getting a major ass-whooping.   

Finishing a decently sailed race 15-20 mins behind first group is a lesson in Humility.    

Not for everyone.

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My radial dacron sails retail for $1850inc GST in Australia. If they're exported you don't have to pay our GST and depending on where you are the exchange rate might be good.

This sail is probably stiffer than a north sail in draft as the fabric is stiffer across the panel, plus as it's a polykote it's stiffer to the hand. I'm using it on a carbon wilke which has had the tip fixed after it snapped. I held my lane in our 15 boat fleet off both starts on the weekend.

I thought if there was a downside to it would be downwind with a softer sail setting better but I haven't noticed any performance hits yet (all the mistakes are mine so far such as going to the wrong end of the finish line and letting boats through.....)

I haven't used this sail in sub 10knts yet but I did make one out of 3.8oz and used it in 8 knots and wasn't slow.

 

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On 10/11/2020 at 9:38 PM, blunderfull said:

Boat flipped & bottom seems ok save for a few small divots/cracks around centerline.   Where’s all the water coming from?   Not easy to inspect c/b trunk from bottom, looks like I have to repair hull nicks first then flip boat and feel around deck joint inside of trunk.   If not c/b trunk leaks ( consensus) then where?

keelband (the strip running from the bow knuckle to the centerboard trunk) is the likely culprit, 5200 the bejezus out of it regardless. (and take off the strips on either side and behind the centerboard, class rules say you don't need them and you're just adding wetted surface)

You can also put a layer of glass around where the CB trunk goes into the floor, wouldn't hurt. Often fun surprises under the gunwale as well. Make sure your autobailers are seated correctly and put vaseline around the edges.

On 10/11/2020 at 9:38 PM, blunderfull said:

Question on old mast ring setup:   neoprene to seal deck opening?   Newer boats have the deck closed off at mast, so that’s a no brainer?

You're welcome to do it, although the water over the bow is so negligible I wouldn't bother; same reason new boats leave the inspection port open behind the mast. More important that the mast ring and the partners are a close fit so you aren't bleeding free horsepower.

On 10/11/2020 at 9:38 PM, blunderfull said:

Devoti uses carbon fiber on cockpit floor?  I did a floor replacement on a Laser with glass (wgt/glass? -I can’t remember). and it failed in six months.  Combination of me @ 225#, typically weak Laser design and my glassing skills.   I blew thru 3 diff cockpit floors in Lasers.

Negative; no carbon or aramid allowed in the construction of hull panels. Devoti (et al) make the deck aft of the coaming, the side decks and the entire floor out of one piece and there are lateral stringers to support your weight. I have never put a hoof through the floor of a Devo and I'm heavier than you. However there is sometimes cracking at the joint where the floor meets the bottom of the hull around the centerboard trunk.

On 10/11/2020 at 9:38 PM, blunderfull said:

New floor:   Vince Valdes/Columbia said he could fabricate a new floor to replace old 3/4” plywood.   Haven’t weighed the wood floor but I would guess it’s north of 2O#.  Will be interesting to see how much weight I can shave off.   Will fix leak(s) then sail.   All’s good then go to the new floor.

Waterlogged floors are a big to-do item on boat diets, see previously linked article re: Marcus' Vanguard.

On 10/11/2020 at 9:38 PM, blunderfull said:

Modern carbon masts are similar in weight to Needlespar alum sections?     Lost the thread on this  - watched some guys step their carbon mast and it was a lot easier looking than lifting/balancing the Needlespar.  How can c/f mast be =/< Needlespar?

Carbon sticks are supposed to have a lead corrector weight about halfway up to negate the CoG gains from being carbon; 30 years of development has widened that gap and iirc the minimum weight was reduced sometime in this century. Having a balanced spar (and lots of practice Iwo Jima'ing) probably contributed to their ease.

 

As far as sails go it's a balancing act between cloth weight, longevity, cost, and durability. A new North Technora main is going to be REALLY fast for about 15 hours of UV exposure (per former Team Canada member), you can flog the thing half to death and it'll work up to 40kt, but the shrinkage and weight make it cost inefficient. Contrast this with the white poly Dieball or Karlo Kuret/ONE Sails, which have a fantastic panel weight and hardly shrink at all, but if you take it out over 15kt you're going to put holes in it. At the Club level you can really get a couple years out of your sails, rotating regatta->heavy air regatta->practice and you can stretch out that $1500 bill from really hurting your wallet.

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On 10/11/2020 at 6:38 PM, blunderfull said:

New floor:   Vince Valdes/Columbia said he could fabricate a new floor to replace old 3/4” plywood.   Haven’t weighed the wood floor but I would guess it’s north of 2O#.  Will be interesting to see how much weight I can shave off.   Will fix leak(s) then sail.   All’s good then go to the new floor.

Don't go so light on your new floor that it flexes much (at all). When standing free pumping you need solid footing.

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On 10/13/2020 at 11:48 AM, onepointfivethumbs said:

Carbon sticks are supposed to have a lead corrector weight about halfway up to negate the CoG gains from being carbon; 30 years of development has widened that gap and iirc the minimum weight was reduced sometime in this century. Having a balanced spar (and lots of practice Iwo Jima'ing) probably contributed to their ease.

 

As far as sails go it's a balancing act between cloth weight, longevity, cost, and durability. A new North Technora main is going to be REALLY fast for about 15 hours of UV exposure (per former Team Canada member), you can flog the thing half to death and it'll work up to 40kt, but the shrinkage and weight make it cost inefficient. Contrast this with the white poly Dieball or Karlo Kuret/ONE Sails, which have a fantastic panel weight and hardly shrink at all, but if you take it out over 15kt you're going to put holes in it. At the Club level you can really get a couple years out of your sails, rotating regatta->heavy air regatta->practice and you can stretch out that $1500 bill from really hurting your wallet.

Wrong on 2 points. Carbon masts have a corrector weight to bring them up to minimum weight and the placement is determined by the balance point. Finn masts, like the boats have certain balance measurements to make them legal.  Some weights are way low and some  way high and the amount of weight varies. 

The white poly sails aren't going to get holes in them over 15. They just aren't as fast because they don't hold their shape as well as technora in the upper range.  

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On 10/14/2020 at 8:59 AM, BIYC said:

Don't go so light on your new floor that it flexes much (at all). When standing free pumping you need solid footing.

Yep, need to get this tight/right.  Weight saving is key too.   P/u points for hoist straps etc.   

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On 10/16/2020 at 7:28 AM, blunderfull said:

P/u points for hoist straps etc

Lift by the thwart, a line on each side tied so they can't slip to the center and one line around the front of the centerboard trunk where the deck meets the trunk for balance.

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On 10/17/2020 at 9:01 PM, BIYC said:

Lift by the thwart, a line on each side tied so they can't slip to the center and one line around the front of the centerboard trunk where the deck meets the trunk for balance.

uh, no. Use the hiking padeye or attachment point for the rear two lines. Put the forward line around the front of the trunk UNDER where all the lines attach. Do not place it where deck meets trunk as this is typically not a strong area. Yes, you might get away with it but you might not. The two rear lines ( or just one line attached to either side making a big loop ) should go to just in front of thwart then the forward line adjust to balance the boat fore and aft.  

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3 hours ago, surf nazi said:

uh, no. Use the hiking padeye or attachment point for the rear two lines. Put the forward line around the front of the trunk UNDER where all the lines attach. Do not place it where deck meets trunk as this is typically not a strong area. Yes, you might get away with it but you might not. The two rear lines ( or just one line attached to either side making a big loop ) should go to just in front of thwart then the forward line adjust to balance the boat fore and aft.  

The hiking strap attachment points on Newport Boats Finns were homemade and all over the map in location and strength, some hiking straps were attached to the floorboard and the floorboard screwed to the thin glass hull stringers with small sheet metal screws. The factory thwart was solidly bolted to the side deck with a metal partner under the teak thwart. The original traveler (1.125" stainless tube) went through the side deck, if still in place a good option for lifting. However hoist launching is done it should be done with a big safety margin.

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19 hours ago, BIYC said:

The hiking strap attachment points on Newport Boats Finns were homemade and all over the map in location and strength, some hiking straps were attached to the floorboard and the floorboard screwed to the thin glass hull stringers with small sheet metal screws. The factory thwart was solidly bolted to the side deck with a metal partner under the teak thwart. The original traveler (1.125" stainless tube) went through the side deck, if still in place a good option for lifting. However hoist launching is done it should be done with a big safety margin.

All good thx.    I’ve got a dolly now too.

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