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964racer

North "Tour Xi" sails - opinions for SH use ?

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Any experience / opinions on North "Tour" sails for single-hand cruising and occasional racing ?  The type recommended line by the local rep.  I was originally looking at a radial cut dacron, but the "Tour" line was recommended because they are a laminate and are lighter/easier handling, but more durable than a racing sail with low stretch compared to dacron.

 

 

 

 

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For singlehanding, I always like to remember that sails take much more of a beating that with a crew.  There will be times, many times, when your sails are flogging when you are working to fix some other problem.  So unless you are made of money, you want sails that can take flogging without failing.

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Totally agree with Foolish. There's a lot of times when you just can't get to the jib's leech line to tighten it, it flogs for 5x as long as crewed when reefing, your autopilot rounds up while you're taking a shit, etc. leading to an uncomfortable amount of flogging.

The 3Di Ocean or Endurance might bridge the durability gap enough to make the change from Dacron but they're a lot more expensive.

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If your sails are fully battened, they do not flog.

I have completely fallen in love with Dimension Polyant light skin GPX carbon. Its **much** lighter than dacron, and is very flexible, has a much easier "hand" than any dacron that is close to strong enough. And, it lasts for very many years.

A dacron sail might last a long time, but tis stretched to shit long before it unravels. As dacron ages and gets baggy, needing to be changed or reefed or similar efforts, while also being slow. Obsolete.

Since the DP GPX cloth does not stretch AT ALL, and is so light, you don't need a light, med, heavy, #2, #3, #4. Just one sail for all conditions. So it ends up being much, much cheaper. I went with a lapper, a non-overlapping jib with a boom high clew, and therefore fully battened. The diagonal lower batten (perpendicular at the headstay, to the clew) works in place of a whisker pole for wing and wing sailing. Works great! Fully battened means it stays benign no matter what is going on, never flogs.

It is truly a transformation over previous generations of sailcloth.

Any sailmaker can use DP GPX, which means you can choose based on relevant aspects (location, service, shape, knowledge and insight, help, cost, time) rather than simply advertising.

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6 hours ago, carcrash said:

If your sails are fully battened, they do not flog.

I have completely fallen in love with Dimension Polyant light skin GPX carbon. Its **much** lighter than dacron, and is very flexible, has a much easier "hand" than any dacron that is close to strong enough. And, it lasts for very many years.

A dacron sail might last a long time, but tis stretched to shit long before it unravels. As dacron ages and gets baggy, needing to be changed or reefed or similar efforts, while also being slow. Obsolete.

Since the DP GPX cloth does not stretch AT ALL, and is so light, you don't need a light, med, heavy, #2, #3, #4. Just one sail for all conditions. So it ends up being much, much cheaper. I went with a lapper, a non-overlapping jib with a boom high clew, and therefore fully battened. The diagonal lower batten (perpendicular at the headstay, to the clew) works in place of a whisker pole for wing and wing sailing. Works great! Fully battened means it stays benign no matter what is going on, never flogs.

It is truly a transformation over previous generations of sailcloth.

Any sailmaker can use DP GPX, which means you can choose based on relevant aspects (location, service, shape, knowledge and insight, help, cost, time) rather than simply advertising.

"The diagonal lower batten (perpendicular at the headstay, to the clew) "

Do you mean vertical battens or horizontal ?

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1 hour ago, 964racer said:

"The diagonal lower batten (perpendicular at the headstay, to the clew) "

Do you mean vertical battens or horizontal ?

The upper three or five battens are perpendicular to the leech, like typical battens. Basically horizontal.

The lowest batten is diagonal: it is perpendicular to the luff, running to the clew. Its the lowest batten that enables wing and wing dead downwind without a whisker pole.

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do you have a picture? 

 

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10 hours ago, carcrash said:

The upper three or five battens are perpendicular to the leech, like typical battens. Basically horizontal.

The lowest batten is diagonal: it is perpendicular to the luff, running to the clew. Its the lowest batten that enables wing and wing dead downwind without a whisker pole.

Carcrash,  I assume your synthetic headstay has a chafe sleeve cover.  Have you seen much chafe on your headstay from the ends of the battens?  Is there something done to the sail luff at the batten locations to prevent chafe or is it just not a problem?

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On 8/11/2020 at 2:21 PM, climenuts said:

Totally agree with Foolish. There's a lot of times when you just can't get to the jib's leech line to tighten it, it flogs for 5x as long as crewed when reefing, your autopilot rounds up while you're taking a shit, etc. leading to an uncomfortable amount of flogging.

The 3Di Ocean or Endurance might bridge the durability gap enough to make the change from Dacron but they're a lot more expensive.

Yah ... sails take a beating ...particularly the mainsail and downwind sails 

high quality , detailed , mid price range sails make sense 

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19 hours ago, carcrash said:

If your sails are fully battened, they do not flog.

I have completely fallen in love with Dimension Polyant light skin GPX carbon. Its **much** lighter than dacron, and is very flexible, has a much easier "hand" than any dacron that is close to strong enough. And, it lasts for very many years.

A dacron sail might last a long time, but tis stretched to shit long before it unravels. As dacron ages and gets baggy, needing to be changed or reefed or similar efforts, while also being slow. Obsolete.

Since the DP GPX cloth does not stretch AT ALL, and is so light, you don't need a light, med, heavy, #2, #3, #4. Just one sail for all conditions. So it ends up being much, much cheaper. I went with a lapper, a non-overlapping jib with a boom high clew, and therefore fully battened. The diagonal lower batten (perpendicular at the headstay, to the clew) works in place of a whisker pole for wing and wing sailing. Works great! Fully battened means it stays benign no matter what is going on, never flogs.

It is truly a transformation over previous generations of sailcloth.

Any sailmaker can use DP GPX, which means you can choose based on relevant aspects (location, service, shape, knowledge and insight, help, cost, time) rather than simply advertising.

At sea your sails slat and flog like crazy in light wind confused sea conditions 

everything takes a beating , battens fly out , chafe on rigging ,  headsail collapse lazy jack slap ...

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I think if are considering paneled sails, I would look to some other sailmakers to see what they offer.  I'm not sold on North Paneled materials as they won't give you data to compare to what DP or other makers are offering.  I'm also not sure what North is offering for a taffeta on their paneled sails.  I think 3di is a really great product but if you are not stepping up to that level financially, then I think some other sail makers have better options.  I couldn't swing the premium for 3di so went with another sailmaker.  I got quotes from several sailmakers and think that most of the majors can make a really good sail.  you just need to find someone who is willing to listen to your requirements and give you the best options that meet those and your budget.  The sailmaker I chose has been super responsive and has offered alot of helpful advice on planning the whole inventory.  

Good Luck!

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On 8/13/2020 at 7:29 AM, slug zitski said:

At sea your sails slat and flog like crazy in light wind confused sea conditions 

everything takes a beating , battens fly out , chafe on rigging ,  headsail collapse lazy jack slap ...

The farthest I have seen a full batten fly, when it escaped the surly bounds of It’s pocket, was 50 yards, we reckoned.  Of course, when that happened, my wife wanted to hail the CG frigate a mile or so away and beg for help.  Thankfully, my manly pride put the kaibosh on that foolish plan, and 5 hours later we were feasting at Confetti’s, and then got a taxi home.  Of course my wife’s story is that I went to the can, and while I was occupied,  she got on the phone, called the marina, got a week’s moorage, a reservation at the restaurant, and the taxi home.  I’ll let you, fair reader determine the truth, whatever that ;) may be...:lol:.....

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On 8/10/2020 at 7:51 PM, 964racer said:

Any experience / opinions on North "Tour" sails for single-hand cruising and occasional racing ?  The type recommended line by the local rep.  I was originally looking at a radial cut dacron, but the "Tour" line was recommended because they are a laminate and are lighter/easier handling, but more durable than a racing sail with low stretch compared to dacron.

 

 

 

 

My sails are made of this  XI 09 Cruise. 5th season, still very good shape. I sail a trimaran, Sh or Dh, cruising and « distance » racing. Of course with such a program sails  have not been exposed to much heavy weather, except for my my blade jib which I sold to a guy sailing in the carribean, who told me that it was really strong. 

The taffeta is quite plaesant to handle - not slippery - and seems well resistant to chafe. A detail, but  I got the sails in grey color, which I find really better than white (looks good, does not shows stains, and is much easier on the eyes to look at).

The possible drawback of this material I think is the weight - and this can be an issue in SH (my main is about 40 sqm, 65 kilos, still OK). This is a handicap I accept as I assume that those sails are robust.I am no specialist in sailcloth at all, but whenI researched for those sails, I had the impression that Hydranet would compare in robustness but would be lighter - again, just an impression...but much more expensive.

So overall  I am pleased with this material.

How North dimensioned the sails, the battens they fitted, etc..is another topic. 

 

 

 

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On 8/12/2020 at 11:35 AM, carcrash said:

If your sails are fully battened, they do not flog.

I have completely fallen in love with Dimension Polyant light skin GPX carbon. Its **much** lighter than dacron, and is very flexible, has a much easier "hand" than any dacron that is close to strong enough. And, it lasts for very many years.

A dacron sail might last a long time, but tis stretched to shit long before it unravels. As dacron ages and gets baggy, needing to be changed or reefed or similar efforts, while also being slow. Obsolete.

Since the DP GPX cloth does not stretch AT ALL, and is so light, you don't need a light, med, heavy, #2, #3, #4. Just one sail for all conditions. So it ends up being much, much cheaper. I went with a lapper, a non-overlapping jib with a boom high clew, and therefore fully battened. The diagonal lower batten (perpendicular at the headstay, to the clew) works in place of a whisker pole for wing and wing sailing. Works great! Fully battened means it stays benign no matter what is going on, never flogs.

It is truly a transformation over previous generations of sailcloth.

Any sailmaker can use DP GPX, which means you can choose based on relevant aspects (location, service, shape, knowledge and insight, help, cost, time) rather than simply advertising.

Carcrash - I'm curious if the full batten and light weight helps this sail work in very light air?  Something you might use a windseeker for.  I'm imagining that with the batten you can keep the sail shape steady to fully use the puffs.

J

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On 8/12/2020 at 11:35 AM, carcrash said:

If your sails are fully battened, they do not flog.

I have completely fallen in love with Dimension Polyant light skin GPX carbon. Its **much** lighter than dacron, and is very flexible, has a much easier "hand" than any dacron that is close to strong enough. And, it lasts for very many years.

A dacron sail might last a long time, but tis stretched to shit long before it unravels. As dacron ages and gets baggy, needing to be changed or reefed or similar efforts, while also being slow. Obsolete.

Since the DP GPX cloth does not stretch AT ALL, and is so light, you don't need a light, med, heavy, #2, #3, #4. Just one sail for all conditions. So it ends up being much, much cheaper. I went with a lapper, a non-overlapping jib with a boom high clew, and therefore fully battened. The diagonal lower batten (perpendicular at the headstay, to the clew) works in place of a whisker pole for wing and wing sailing. Works great! Fully battened means it stays benign no matter what is going on, never flogs.

It is truly a transformation over previous generations of sailcloth.

Any sailmaker can use DP GPX, which means you can choose based on relevant aspects (location, service, shape, knowledge and insight, help, cost, time) rather than simply advertising.

I’m torn on that one- if you have swept spreaders, fully battened sails take one hell of a beating. That, battens are heavy, and God help you if they won’t flip in light airs.

light is expensive, but is also the SH Friend.

 

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On 9/15/2020 at 9:06 AM, Chix & Dumpling said:

Carcrash - I'm curious if the full batten and light weight helps this sail work in very light air?  Something you might use a windseeker for.  I'm imagining that with the batten you can keep the sail shape steady to fully use the puffs.

J

I think the sail works well in light air. Batten tension on tapered battens does seem to help maintain shape when it glasses off.

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On 9/15/2020 at 12:13 PM, Amati said:

I’m torn on that one- if you have swept spreaders, fully battened sails take one hell of a beating. That, battens are heavy, and God help you if they won’t flip in light airs.

light is expensive, but is also the SH Friend.

 

I explicitly measured the headsail so it does not hit the mast, ever, to avoid beating it on the mast.

Note that if one is trying to generate the most lift and lowest drag for a given amount of sail cloth (aka money $$$), instead of trying to have the most sailcloth aloft that a rule allows (aka sending the maximum $$$ to your sailmaker), then you want the leech FORWARD of the mast.

The optimum location for the jib leech is at the lowest pressure point of the mainsail, which is forward of the mast (or else you would not sail forward upwind). Since my boat is about performance, rather than rating rule or enriching sailmakers, my jib will not take a beating from the mast.

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On 8/10/2020 at 4:51 PM, 964racer said:

Any experience / opinions on North "Tour" sails for single-hand cruising and occasional racing ?  The type recommended line by the local rep.  I was originally looking at a radial cut dacron, but the "Tour" line was recommended because they are a laminate and are lighter/easier handling, but more durable than a racing sail with low stretch compared to dacron. 

 

 

 

 

Like everything else on a boat, there is no one perfect sail, and everything is a compromise.  I had a radial cut North main that I really liked on my S2 9.1.  That said, I'd agree with your North Rep that Tour Xi will be lighter than a dacron sail, while be more durable than a pure racing sail (think 3Di raw). At 240 sq ft, the main on the 9.1 was small enough that weight, from a hoist/handle single or short handed wasn't really an issue.  Your main is 300 sq ft, so 25% bigger.  You are probably at the cross over point were the weight of a dacron main will be more of an issue.  Not that you can't manage a dacron main, but it may take longer/be harder to do...the other advantage to a single or shorthanded racer, racing a boat like yours of a laminate sail is reduced weight aloft, meaning less heel for any given windspeed.  As you can't stack the rail with bodies to make up for extra weight aloft, the lighter sail will make the boat stiffer and you more competitive.

While a dacron main will physically last longer than a laminate sail, it's racing shape doesn't last near as long.  So from a racing standpoint, the added "durability" of dacron isn't adding much value.  After 4 years of so (being kinda generous) even a well cared for radial dacron sail is really only good as a delivery and cruising sail...

So I'd say if the boat already has a dacron main that can be the cruising/delivery sail slot, then I'd spend the money on a laminate sail that is lighter and easier to handle when racing shorthanded, AND gives you back some righting moment....but it's easy to spend someone else's money!

Crash

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