Swimsailor

New Moore 33

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Just now, Raz'r said:

While I'm not in the market, as I have my boat for the next 5+ years, and my old-man boat is probably something more like a Wyliecat or Alerion 28, I am very interested in seeing the boat!

The Alerion's really are very beautiful boats. There are a few 28's and a few 38's in the area some owned by previously very successful hardcore racing sailors, and they are a joy to see.

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1 hour ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

The Alerion's really are very beautiful boats. There are a few 28's and a few 38's in the area some owned by previously very successful hardcore racing sailors, and they are a joy to see.

The 38s are to swoon for.

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

The 38s are to swoon for.

There is a brand new navy blue one with 3di rags and a big square top main in a slip three or four away from my boat. It is owned by a general contractor who had a series of hot shit race boats and is now a little older. I guess the lesson is to not have him remodel your kitchen B)

 

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34 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

You managed to miss the point pretty thoroughly. My point is that newer boats are not necessarily better boats. I agree that the J-70 is a really fun boat to sail. But last time I did the Etchells Worlds we had 120 boats on the line. Do you think there will be 120 J-70's on the line for the 2060 Worlds? Stars are still world class sailing and in production. So are Finns.

Etchells had 37 boats at the last worlds. You're talking about longevity of classes, but also talking about extremely niche boats that lack the universal popularity that the classes you put down do have. The Santa Cruz ULDBs are super fun boats, I agree with that sentiment thoroughly, but so are J70s and  Melges 32s. Newer boats are most certain not necessarily better boats, but they certainly can be! You've just been shitting on anything that isn't an old SF ULDB in this thread. I don't get it. Ron Moore clearly believes that this boat has better commercial appeal than new Moore 24s, otherwise he wouldn't be investing time, money and energy into this project. Obviously opinion is subjective, but let other people have one too.

 

A Ferrari 250 GTO is an awesome car, beautiful, prolific, and undeniably changed the landscape of sportscars, and I'd be fine with someone saying it is the greatest car of all time. But I think its perfectly acceptable for someone to buy a LaFerrari, with F1 technology, beautiful looks, crazy engineering, and say that it is the greatest car of all time. And I'm fine with people saying all of that, because I know the Ford Pinto is the greatest car ever designed.

 

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4 minutes ago, Tubes said:

I know the Ford Pinto is the greatest car ever designed.

 

You have got me there.

I am not shitting on anyone's boat. The more people sailing the better as far as I am concerned. Someone up thread said that the long and narrow design philosophy is over, and I disagree especially when beam is constrained for a trailer boat. If you are happy getting a new boat every few years then it is fine to have the newest design. Cool. That is all.

Personally I would rather have a Cal 40 than a Beneteau 40.7. I guess I am weird, but I have known that for a while. I guess Stan and Sally Honey are also weird since that is what they chose for their personal boat.

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On 8/24/2020 at 10:45 PM, BobJ said:

Antrim 27 has raced over 2-3 times in the Pacific Cup.  The new carbon version is signed up to go next time.

 

There are these other races to Hawaii for the rest of us.  Usually tougher due to the conditions off San Francisco, and no designated chefs or hairdressers on board.

Having sailed four Pac Cups, one short handed. It is as hit or miss for conditions as Transpac.

The Moore 33 has a good chance of qualifying for Transpac. 

 

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On 8/25/2020 at 7:23 AM, stinky said:

Have you ever done any offshore one design racing? Nothing keeps you honest like a few sisterships playing the same game. 

 

Yes.  Spent several years crewing on OOD 34's.  Lots of Channel races and a couple of Fastnets.

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24 minutes ago, yoyo said:

Some renderings and specs up on Lat38.

Dang! That thing is going to SCOOT.

10' wide, so no pilot car when trailering. 3,750 displacement, no problem to tow but make sure your tow vehicle is heavy and sure footed for when you cross a bridge with a crosswind.

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32 minutes ago, Blastbeat said:

Looks like an Antrim 33 to me... I was secretly hoping for a scow, swing keel and option for foils down the road...

I don't think there is any such thing as an Antrim 33 except in the imagination. The 27 is a nice boat though. Never really took off as a one design. Not meaningfully better than an Express 27 which has an established one design fleet.

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7 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

I don't think there is any such thing as an Antrim 33 except in the imagination. The 27 is a nice boat though. Never really took off as a one design. Not meaningfully better than an Express 27 which has an established one design fleet.

I believe he was referencing the Antrim 34 concept design.  I dont think any were built. https://antrimdesign.com/antrim-34-lifting-keel.html

 

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1 hour ago, Swimsailor said:

Looks a lot like a Hendo,  or a Flying Tiger 10M, or a Farest 28R. Not that that's bad but I don't think it's going to set the offshore market on fire the same way the 24 or the O30 did.

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How do you charge the batts offshore with an outboard in a well?

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1 hour ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

I don't think there is any such thing as an Antrim 33 except in the imagination. The 27 is a nice boat though. Never really took off as a one design. Not meaningfully better than an Express 27 which has an established one design fleet.

Yes, I was joking about the Antrim 33  :-)  I really fail to see how this new design will attract interest, time will tell.

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One huge drawback of The Cone on distance racing is the ability to charge the batteries reliably. I can't see how this design will be different. Solar has come a long way since then, but are they going to cover it in panels? Fuel cells? Portable generator?

It also makes it much harder to single or double hand. AP would chew through even a large house bank in a couple days and it would take forever to charge with a shitty outboard alternator.

 

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Fuel cell, solar are both options that would work. Double handed I would go fuel cell so you have ap power all the time. 

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5 hours ago, bodega87 said:

How do you charge the batts offshore with an outboard in a well?

That's what hydrogenerators are for!

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When the Hobie 33 was launched, with sails, bottom paint, and basic electronics, out the door they were just under $30K.  For comparison purposes a new Corvette was about the same price, just under $30K. In 1983, as a moderately successful 30-year-old, I was able to afford both, along with my small beach front condo in Redondo Beach.

Today a Corvette is $80K.  My guess is the M33 with sales bottom paint and basic electronics will be in the $250K range.   How many moderately successful 30 somethings can afford this boat? 

My guess is Moore will be very lucky for unit sales to get half way to double digits.

It looks like a very cool boat though.

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11 minutes ago, DRP said:

When the Hobie 33 was launched, with sails, bottom paint, and basic electronics, out the door they were just under $30K.  For comparison purposes a new Corvette was about the same price, just under $30K. In 1983, as a moderately successful 30-year-old, I was able to afford both, along with my small beach front condo in Redondo Beach.

Today a Corvette is $80K.  My guess is the M33 with sales bottom paint and basic electronics will be in the $250K range.   How many moderately successful 30 somethings can afford this boat? 

My guess is Moore will be very lucky for unit sales to get half way to double digits.

It looks like a very cool boat though.

It has a sprit! Surely that is worth paying 2.5x. 
 

( I am not calling you Shirley)

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I agree, similar to a Melges 32, Hendo 30, etc. 

Interesting dayboat, and coastal racer. Not suited for longer offshore racing.

Would be four, five crew for Transpac? Two and two watches. Helm, and trim. All hands for any maneuver, change. Large, long cockpit puts helm out of reach for anything but mainsheet. Standby crew accommodation far forward, not good for weight positioning when fast running. Also extremely wet on deck, and in cockpit. No shelter

If double handing, the long cockpit makes for impossible situation while on watch. No access to sail controls at helm. Balance, and stability not practical for autopilot. 

Class 40 is a much better model for modern, crewed, and shorthanded ocean racer. Volume, balance, crew protection, all are much better for offshore, and overnight sailing. Would be interesting to see a 33-34' version of a class 40, with focus of offshore racing. Balanced for fast reaching, running, with autopilot. Primarily furling headsails. Good protection for crew. Foils?

While SoCal has mild conditions for the most part, and the protection from constant water immersion is not a factor, except very rarely. Once offshore, the fatigue from environmental exposure will likely make the experience less than ideal. 

 

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We can spout the benefits of this or that design and pontificate on what has or should be done.  All speculation on an internet forum. 

Its mostly nostalgic on my part but it would be cool to see some fun stuff getting pumped out of Santa Cruz again.  I hope the guy that stepped up with his vision to build a dual purpose 33' sporty and offshore capable trailer boat is successful. 

Key here is dual purpose and the majority of racing would be with a crew around the cans.  I would argue that to focus design on shorthanded and offshore would make the boat much less fun to sail the majority of time it will be used.  Heck the M33 guys may even be working on different shorthand/offshore versions via build packages/options.

Long cockpit making double handling impossible - really?  not practical for autopilot - really?  fatigue from environmental exposure - really?   I wonder why the Moore 24, E27, A27, Hobie 33 guys sail offshore at all.

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16 minutes ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

WOuld love to see boats built in Watsonville again. I think WileyCat 30's were the last new non-dinghies built at whaleworld/moore. Lots of good boatbuilders still around down there.

Was Watsonville chosen because SC became cost prohibitive? I know Ballinger is there. When I went by his shop I was surprised how far away from the water they are, in the midst of agriculture. I guess shipping a boat over the freeway to SC is going to be cheaper than paying prime rent for a facility closer to the water?

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7 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

Was Watsonville chosen because SC became cost prohibitive? I know Ballinger is there. When I went by his shop I was surprised how far away from the water they are, in the midst of agriculture. I guess shipping a boat over the freeway to SC is going to be cheaper than paying prime rent for a facility closer to the water?

I am sure its cheaper. Where the Santa Cruz yachts were built initially is now one of the highest end residential foothill neighborhoods in the county and was just as inconvenient to the water as Moore's location today. Then SC moved to a large private property at La Selva which has no water access. Thats where all the 52's etc were built I think. Ultimate 20's were built on the same property as well as Waterat's foil manufacturing. Calffee cycles has been on that property for a long time as well. Next to Moore's Watsonville location they can cast lead which is helpful not to have to transport.

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1 hour ago, yoyo said:

We can spout the benefits of this or that design and pontificate on what has or should be done.  All speculation on an internet forum. 

Its mostly nostalgic on my part but it would be cool to see some fun stuff getting pumped out of Santa Cruz again.  I hope the guy that stepped up with his vision to build a dual purpose 33' sporty and offshore capable trailer boat is successful. 

Key here is dual purpose and the majority of racing would be with a crew around the cans.  I would argue that to focus design on shorthanded and offshore would make the boat much less fun to sail the majority of time it will be used.  Heck the M33 guys may even be working on different shorthand/offshore versions via build packages/options.

Long cockpit making double handling impossible - really?  not practical for autopilot - really?  fatigue from environmental exposure - really?   I wonder why the Moore 24, E27, A27, Hobie 33 guys sail offshore at all.

And for the love of God, DO NOT sail offshore in a Cal 40 with its death-trap spade rudder!

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5 minutes ago, Hawaiidart said:

And for the love of God, DO NOT sail offshore in a Cal 40 with its death-trap spade rudder!

Cal 40's are a death trap. No sane person would sail one offshore. Just ask the 14 boats that sailed in TransPac one-design in 1966 and again in 2005 or the Cal 40 one-design fleet that sailed last year.

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21 minutes ago, Hawaiidart said:

And for the love of God, DO NOT sail offshore in a Cal 40 with its death-trap spade rudder!

at least it doesn't have one of those sure-to-flood offset companionways

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Quote

The Moore 33 has a good chance of qualifying for Transpac. 

Not with a 1500lbs keel in a 3800lbs + sails/gear.   I bet it won't meet the righting moment.

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Are the going to build it in Watsonville or pull a fast one; anyone remember the SC37?

Does Ron have the technology to build a modern boat? I know he's been making the occasional El Toro, but other than those, whens the last time a new boat came out of that shop?

The most recent I can think of is the Antrim 30 trimaran Erin in the mid 90's. Anything since then?

 

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3 hours ago, solosailor said:

Not with a 1500lbs keel in a 3800lbs + sails/gear.   I bet it won't meet the righting moment.

I would give Alan Andrews the benefit of the doubt on this one.

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41 minutes ago, stinky said:

Are the going to build it in Watsonville or pull a fast one; anyone remember the SC37?

Does Ron have the technology to build a modern boat? I know he's been making the occasional El Toro, but other than those, whens the last time a new boat came out of that shop?

The most recent I can think of is the Antrim 30 trimaran Erin in the mid 90's. Anything since then?

 

It sounds to me the boat is purposefully low tech.  Again, benefit of the doubt goes to Ron Moore for me.

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Not sure why we are even talking about the Cal 40, but oh well:

image.png.e3390acfab69243d62df7e4286d46a2f.png

 

It is interesting Ron Moore is going to build the boat indeed, but oh well, hard to doubt him. 

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6 hours ago, stinky said:

Are the going to build it in Watsonville or pull a fast one; anyone remember the SC37?

Does Ron have the technology to build a modern boat? I know he's been making the occasional El Toro, but other than those, whens the last time a new boat came out of that shop?

The most recent I can think of is the Antrim 30 trimaran Erin in the mid 90's. Anything since then?

 

It's a boat, not a Ferrari. Two big female tools and a few more small ones, some gel oat, some glass/carbon, divinicel and/or balsa, and resin. Add some craftsmen to do the layup and squeeze excess resin out like their lives depend on it before bagging it and the rest is just details. Though the devil is in there somewhere!

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On 9/4/2020 at 12:28 AM, jhc said:

 

Class 40 is a much better model for modern, crewed, and shorthanded ocean racer. Volume, balance, crew protection, all are much better for offshore, and overnight sailing. Would be interesting to see a 33-34' version of a class 40, with focus of offshore racing. Balanced for fast reaching, running, with autopilot. Primarily furling headsails. Good protection for crew. Foils?

 

 

The Classe 950 (though a bit shorter, and hardly thriving as a class), the Sunfast 3300, and the JPK 1030 would come pretty close to filling that niche - in my eyes at least. 

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1 hour ago, ALL@SEA said:

The Classe 950 (though a bit shorter, and hardly thriving as a class), the Sunfast 3300, and the JPK 1030 would come pretty close to filling that niche - in my eyes at least. 

Which of those can you legally transport on a trailer without permits in the US? And which are also intended for fully crewed buoy racing?

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On 9/3/2020 at 3:05 PM, stinky said:

Are the going to build it in Watsonville or pull a fast one; anyone remember the SC37?

Does Ron have the technology to build a modern boat? I know he's been making the occasional El Toro, but other than those, whens the last time a new boat came out of that shop?

The most recent I can think of is the Antrim 30 trimaran Erin in the mid 90's. Anything since then?

 

On 9/3/2020 at 10:11 PM, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

It's a boat, not a Ferrari. Two big female tools and a few more small ones, some gel oat, some glass/carbon, divinicel and/or balsa, and resin. Add some craftsmen to do the layup and squeeze excess resin out like their lives depend on it before bagging it and the rest is just details. Though the devil is in there somewhere!

A boat like that should have the hull and deck done with Infusion. Vacuum Bagging is out. Even Catalina uses Infusion. It is cost effective and precise.

 

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51 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

A boat like that should have the hull and deck done with Infusion. Vacuum Bagging is out. Even Catalina uses Infusion. It is cost effective and precise.

 

I'm curious if you know why they use infusion?

It's heavier than vac bagged.

 

(Hint: your favorite, the EPA, no fumes with Infusion)

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I'm curious if you know why they use infusion?

It's heavier than vac bagged.

 

(Hint: your favorite, the EPA, no fumes with Infusion)

Then they are not doing it right. The guy (Jon Vandermolen I think) who used to make the Star and he started making the 2.4mR using Infusion made the best and fastest. That is enough for me. It is a more precise method of using the proper mix of resin and glass/carbon.

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Infused parts typically are lighter than not terribly precise wet preg but bagging can make up for that. Due to the resin channels its usually heavier than prepreg. CP.

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2 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Then they are not doing it right. The guy (Jon Vandermolen I think) who used to make the Star and he started making the 2.4mR using Infusion made the best and fastest. That is enough for me. It is a more precise method of using the proper mix of resin and glass/carbon.

Key words are "doing it right". Most people don't need that last bit of optimization. Now if its faster and you can save labor along with a more consistent quality part then whats to argue, right? But one messed up part like a hull and the tortoise might still win :)

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There seems to be a bit of confusion wrt to resin fusion. Vacuum bagging is an inherent/essential part of resin infusion.  The bag remains on the part, under pressure after the resin is fully drawn through the part being molded. 

vacuum-enhanced-resin-infusion-technology.png

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1 hour ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

Key words are "doing it right". Most people don't need that last bit of optimization. Now if its faster and you can save labor along with a more consistent quality part then whats to argue, right? But one messed up part like a hull and the tortoise might still win :)

Bit of misconception in these statements. Even hand wet out layers, if vacuum bagged correctly, will be lighter than an infused build. Why? a hand layup will wet out only the glass until it's saturated. Excess resin will be pressed out thru the peel ply into the bleeder layers. Scarf joints/kerf cuts in the core will largely stay dry. If scarf joints/kerf cuts were fanned out (outside of curves) they would be filled with a very light filler before lay ups commenced.

  A infused part will result in NO dry voids anywhere, raw resin will fill all spaces in the part, whether needed or not. Because of this, infusion results in a heavier part. The J 105 class struggled with this for quite a while, as there were hand laid hulls & infused hulls racing. Not until actual weights were taken & corrector lead installed did things equalize again.

Neither method gives great control over resin/glass ratios, only pre-preg will do that But since there is no excess resin available to fill gaps/voids, several preliminary vacuum bagging steps are required before final cure. These are known as 'de-bulking' steps. And the greater the pressures used in the bagging process, the better the resulting compaction, so really high end stuff gets put into a pressure vessel to allow for more than 14.7 psi pressures.

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56 minutes ago, longy said:

Bit of misconception in these statements. Even hand wet out layers, if vacuum bagged correctly, will be lighter than an infused build. Why? a hand layup will wet out only the glass until it's saturated. Excess resin will be pressed out thru the peel ply into the bleeder layers. Scarf joints/kerf cuts in the core will largely stay dry. If scarf joints/kerf cuts were fanned out (outside of curves) they would be filled with a very light filler before lay ups commenced.

  A infused part will result in NO dry voids anywhere, raw resin will fill all spaces in the part, whether needed or not. Because of this, infusion results in a heavier part. The J 105 class struggled with this for quite a while, as there were hand laid hulls & infused hulls racing. Not until actual weights were taken & corrector lead installed did things equalize again.

Neither method gives great control over resin/glass ratios, only pre-preg will do that But since there is no excess resin available to fill gaps/voids, several preliminary vacuum bagging steps are required before final cure. These are known as 'de-bulking' steps. And the greater the pressures used in the bagging process, the better the resulting compaction, so really high end stuff gets put into a pressure vessel to allow for more than 14.7 psi pressures.

Yep

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11 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Which of those can you legally transport on a trailer without permits in the US? And which are also intended for fully crewed buoy racing?

I don't think you're going to legally road transport a 30+' version of a Class 40 anywhere. What part of the topic I was referring to mentioned traierling? Thread drift seems inevitable, but have a look at the quoted text, or even all of post 124, and I don't think trailering  in relevant in that context.

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46 minutes ago, ALL@SEA said:

I don't think you're going to legally road transport a 30+' version of a Class 40 anywhere. What part of the topic I was referring to mentioned traierling? Thread drift seems inevitable, but have a look at the quoted text, or even all of post 124, and I don't think trailering  in relevant in that context.

Well the design brief is a boat small enough to trailer around for one design buoy racing and big enough to do TransPac so I don’t see how a 30’+ version of a Class 40 has anything to do with it. That would be a cool boat for the Figaro though. Maybe MORC if such a thing still existed. 

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4 hours ago, longy said:

Bit of misconception in these statements. Even hand wet out layers, if vacuum bagged correctly, will be lighter than an infused build. Why? a hand layup will wet out only the glass until it's saturated. Excess resin will be pressed out thru the peel ply into the bleeder layers. Scarf joints/kerf cuts in the core will largely stay dry. If scarf joints/kerf cuts were fanned out (outside of curves) they would be filled with a very light filler before lay ups commenced.

  A infused part will result in NO dry voids anywhere, raw resin will fill all spaces in the part, whether needed or not. Because of this, infusion results in a heavier part. The J 105 class struggled with this for quite a while, as there were hand laid hulls & infused hulls racing. Not until actual weights were taken & corrector lead installed did things equalize again.

Neither method gives great control over resin/glass ratios, only pre-preg will do that But since there is no excess resin available to fill gaps/voids, several preliminary vacuum bagging steps are required before final cure. These are known as 'de-bulking' steps. And the greater the pressures used in the bagging process, the better the resulting compaction, so really high end stuff gets put into a pressure vessel to allow for more than 14.7 psi pressures.

Happy to bumble along if it draws out an educated resource. Thanks.

we tried to build a prepreg skinned rudder but the heat needed to cure it warped the thing due to the inconsistency of the foam core and the minor variations of fiber direction in relation to whatever the fuck the center of the blades universe might have been at the time

we would have needed to skin the rudder .250 inches sub final surface to allow for adding fairing material and final impact glass layers to make it true to blueprints with the 5 axis router. Wasn't worth the hassle by a long way. Even though we had a 20' plus long 5' diameter autoclave we never even thought of using it for spars and rudder shafts. Manually wound prepreg shafts/spars with overnight debulking and final cooking under vacuum made solid parts. 

Here's some useful info. if you own one of the first 100 J100's then you have a rudder with a hand made prepreg Carbon shaft and a 5 axis machined  blade with carbon and glass skins with final fairing by hand with templates along with 100% composite captured roller bearings with the only metal being the stainless races. Every blade was laid up by hand after initial shaping of the foam/ribs using the 5 axis router +|- 10 thou. Probably the finest production steering system in any mass produced boat ever. I personally tested the bearings with a dummy shaft, a load cell and a gantry crane. Bearings and shaft held beyond 3x expected max loads. Fun times.

We never vacuum bagged a wet lam rudder. Using squeegees and hand pressure was all that was needed and we made a lot of rudders that way. In the same shop we made aerospace quality prepreg parts using the autoclave some of which needed nitrogen to pressurize the clave due to curing temps needed. Zero marine parts were cured under exterior pressure except for some plate we made for bearing parts just because we could. 

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Sorry, Chris - I was trying to grab Meat Wads statement & clarify that. Didn't notice until later that it only copied your post. Infusion seems to be mostly a method to reduce emissions, at the cost of a lot of disposed plastic sheeting.  

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8 hours ago, longy said:

Sorry, Chris - I was trying to grab Meat Wads statement & clarify that. Didn't notice until later that it only copied your post. Infusion seems to be mostly a method to reduce emissions, at the cost of a lot of disposed plastic sheeting.  

No apology necessary! All good stuff. I have never been a fan of infusion as I believe its easier to fuck up a huge part for not that much gain, but in all fairness any kind of composites manufacturing or repair requires a bunch of non-recyclable garbage. The industry itself from the point of fiber/resin manufacturing up to the point of having a usable part is incredibly non-green. You can't even really recycle the composite parts when their useful life is over. The greenest thing folks could do would be to buy old boats and fix them up versus buying a newly manufactured one. Lot less fumes that way :)

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On 9/5/2020 at 8:58 PM, SF Woody Sailor said:

Which of those can you legally transport on a trailer without permits in the US? 

That topic alone is a minefield for those who dare to enter........ And not particularly valid as to the overall sucess of any one sailboat design. 

You make some valid points but there will always be someone trying to buld a better mousetrap, despite good reasons as to why we should all be be sailing a limited number of designs to prevent fragmentation of our sport....... So what we are essentailly distilling this discussion down to, is Free Market over, dare I say it; Communism or Dictated choices.

And without tring to send this down a political rabbits warren, consider that it is Free Markets that have allowed prices to be gouged and to prevent sailboats having any bearing on affordibility anymore, let alone be comparable with other commonly owned items........ Just saying.

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1 minute ago, Boink said:

That topic alone is a minefield for those who dare to enter........ And not particularly valid as to the overall sucess of any one sailboat design. 

You make some valid points but there will always be someone trying to buld a better mousetrap, despite good reasons as to why we should all be be sailing a limited number of designs to prevent fragmentation of our sport....... So what we are essentailly distilling this discussion down to, is Free Market over, dare I say it; Communism or Dictated choices.

And without tring to send this down a political rabbits warren, consider that it is Free Markets that have allowed prices to be gouged and to prevent sailboats having any bearing on affordibility anymore, let alone be comparable with other commonly owned items........ Just saying.

Well that is why I think new boats are overrated. The Express 27 is a fantastic trailerable buoy racer that can also be take offshore and has an existing one design fleet (on the West Coast). The Olson 30 and Hobie 33 (minus the one design) are slightly larger, trailerable fantastic offshore downwind boats for Hawaii. So I am not sure why a new boat is needed. I guess I think there is a space for the maximum size boat that would be Transpac compliant and you could fit in a trailer (maybe with the mast in sections?) for the trip back.

 

But then again, I think asymmetrical kites are stupid. I think having a bureaucracy in Moscow decide which boats we ought to sail would be a poor idea. On the other hand, we would all sail Macgregor 26's so at least there would be a one design. I have a boat I like so my opinion is totally irrelevant.

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Just now, SF Woody Sailor said:

Well that is why I think new boats are overrated. The Express 27 is a fantastic trailerable buoy racer that can also be take offshore and has an existing one design fleet (on the West Coast). The Olson 30 and Hobie 33 (minus the one design) are slightly larger, trailerable fantastic offshore downwind boats for Hawaii. So I am not sure why a new boat is needed. I guess I think there is a space for the maximum size boat that would be Transpac compliant and you could fit in a trailer (maybe with the mast in sections?) for the trip back.

 

But then again, I think asymmetrical kites are stupid. I think having a bureaucracy in Moscow decide which boats we ought to sail would be a poor idea. On the other hand, we would all sail Macgregor 26's so at least there would be a one design. I have a boat I like so my opinion is totally irrelevant.

I think you need to update your reference points.......

If you actually have belief that Moscow is in any way a representation of Communism then I cannot help you. 

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Just now, Boink said:

I think you need to update your reference points.......

If you actually have belief that Moscow is in any way a representation of Communism then I cannot help you. 

Good point. Caracas, Pyongyang or Sacramento. 

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This is a thread drift but communism doesn’t mean it’ll be bad designed just no one gets rewarded for it. 
 

It can be the mig17 or mig29 of light sport boats. But expect the ppl who put it together to get some ration increases and maybe timeshare dacha and a hero medal. 

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13 minutes ago, Miffy said:

This is a thread drift but communism doesn’t mean it’ll be bad designed just no one gets rewarded for it. 
 

It can be the mig17 or mig29 of light sport boats. But expect the ppl who put it together to get some ration increases and maybe timeshare dacha and a hero medal. 

Like the Yugo and the Lada? Incentives are everything. In Soviet times the apparatchik in charge of a shoe factory got a dacha if he exceeded the production quota for shoes. He made all left shoes. 
 

 

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1 minute ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Like the Yugo and the Lada? Incentives are everything. In Soviet times the apparatchik in charge of a shoe factory got a dacha if he exceeded the production quota for shoes. He made all left shoes. 
 

 

The Mig17 and Mig29 was objectively aerodynamically good performers. 
 

With design - edu & opportunity was often sufficient and the Soviets gave out unlimited wind tunnel hours for the projects. It’s at the production where cost cutting became the focus. 

Im not a tanky or a Soviet revisionist. But there’s a reason why we were worried about Soviet technology proliferation and it isn’t just because it was AK47 cheap and fit for purpose. 

We exfoliated so many scientists to the US and set them up for life. I have no doubt they could have designed small boat to end all small boat designs. 

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5 minutes ago, Miffy said:

The Mig17 and Mig29 was objectively aerodynamically good performers. 
 

With design - edu & opportunity was often sufficient and the Soviets gave out unlimited wind tunnel hours for the projects. It’s at the production where cost cutting became the focus. 

Im not a tanky or a Soviet revisionist. But there’s a reason why we were worried about Soviet technology proliferation and it isn’t just because it was AK47 cheap and fit for purpose. 

We exfoliated so many scientists to the US and set them up for life. I have no doubt they could have designed small boat to end all small boat designs. 

Exfoliated? 

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On 9/5/2020 at 11:28 AM, Meat Wad said:

Then they are not doing it right. The guy (Jon Vandermolen I think) who used to make the Star and he started making the 2.4mR using Infusion made the best and fastest. That is enough for me. It is a more precise method of using the proper mix of resin and glass/carbon.

On 9/5/2020 at 2:40 PM, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

Key words are "doing it right". Most people don't need that last bit of optimization. Now if its faster and you can save labor along with a more consistent quality part then whats to argue, right? But one messed up part like a hull and the tortoise might still win :)

Yep, do it right or get out of business.

There is a huge difference between parts and a Hull / Deck. One is parts and the other is the Boat.

 

On 9/5/2020 at 4:48 PM, longy said:

Bit of misconception in these statements. Even hand wet out layers, if vacuum bagged correctly, will be lighter than an infused build. Why? a hand layup will wet out only the glass until it's saturated. Excess resin will be pressed out thru the peel ply into the bleeder layers. Scarf joints/kerf cuts in the core will largely stay dry. If scarf joints/kerf cuts were fanned out (outside of curves) they would be filled with a very light filler before lay ups commenced.

  A infused part will result in NO dry voids anywhere, raw resin will fill all spaces in the part, whether needed or not. Because of this, infusion results in a heavier part. The J 105 class struggled with this for quite a while, as there were hand laid hulls & infused hulls racing. Not until actual weights were taken & corrector lead installed did things equalize again.

Neither method gives great control over resin/glass ratios, only pre-preg will do that But since there is no excess resin available to fill gaps/voids, several preliminary vacuum bagging steps are required before final cure. These are known as 'de-bulking' steps. And the greater the pressures used in the bagging process, the better the resulting compaction, so really high end stuff gets put into a pressure vessel to allow for more than 14.7 psi pressures.

On 9/5/2020 at 1:13 PM, Bruno said:

Infused parts typically are lighter than not terribly precise wet preg but bagging can make up for that. Due to the resin channels its usually heavier than prepreg. CP.

So did the class struggle with this or the builder??

And why would you use VB or Infusion if the part had spaces that did not need resin??? That sounds like 2 different parts.

 

OK, i can't breathe resin fumes anymore.

And there is a huge difference with Pre Preg, Infusion and vacuum bagging. where Infusion and VB are almost the same but different. Kind of like black and white???

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54 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Autocorre:D

 

exfiltrated 

I know, but I thought it was funny. Soviet scientists getting dermatology appointments in CIA/Elizabeth Arden co-branded spas. 
 

Every consumer product the Soviets made was garbage because there were no incentives or disincentives. No reward for a better product or a better price. The resources went into defense or national pride (science, literature, music etc) because those are non-market goods where price incentives are effectively irrelevant. A sailboat is a market good. Left to its own devices a centrally planned economy would give us the Optimist and the MacGregor 26. Shitty boats in large volumes. 

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1 hour ago, Meat Wad said:

 

Yep, do it right or get out of business.

There is a huge difference between parts and a Hull / Deck. One is parts and the other is the Boat.

 

So did the class struggle with this or the builder??

And why would you use VB or Infusion if the part had spaces that did not need resin??? That sounds like 2 different parts.

 

OK, i can't breathe resin fumes anymore.

And there is a huge difference with Pre Preg, Infusion and vacuum bagging. where Infusion and VB are almost the same but different. Kind of like black and white???

It's all parts until they are assembled into a boat in my world :)

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The J 105 weight differences were from TPI changing production from hand lay up to infusion, to reduce emissions. As with all J boat racing, it was left to the class/owners to sort out just how 'equal' the boats had to be. That infusion fills ALL voids is an unwanted side effect of the process.

Emissions is the huge issue nowadays, mass producing anything that results in massive outgassing of styrene/acetones/ MEK whatever is almost entirely illegal in the USA. May still be OK in North Carolina (?) where Bene was building.

Vacuum bagging (of either hand wet out or infused) allows better compaction of layers,  following/filling of tight curves in a mold, and better (than hand laid) control of resin content. (if you have a long enuff cure time, much excess resin can be squeezed out of the laminate, thru the peel ply, into the breather layers)

Pre preg lay ups are the only way to have full control of resin/fiber ratio's. You can get p-p in epoxy resins that cure at higher than room temps to allow for working times. They are refrigerated before use. You can get impregnation machines that work with polyester resins - the cloth runs thru a catalyzed resin bath, then thru rollers to press out excess resin. Because high fiber to resin material has NO excess resin, cloth edges are a problem, as there is nothing to fill the step down edge  in layers. This means vacuum bagging is a must for the laminates, and has driven the development of "thin ply" cloths that are very thin to almost eliminate the edge problems

 

Please contact your local GURIT rep for more details.

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One thing that I've wondered about is if, as open molding fades away, there is a change in strength due to compaction, if a well glassed part is slightly thicker than a bagged part.

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7 hours ago, Bruno said:

One thing that I've wondered about is if, as open molding fades away, there is a change in strength due to compaction, if a well glassed part is slightly thicker than a bagged part.

The change in strength is negligible, but the un-bagged part will be stiffer than the bagged part. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, stinky said:

The change in strength is negligible, but the un-bagged part will be stiffer than the bagged part. 

 

 

Which, for a deck may mean more glass is needed to add stiffness back......or a bottom panel is now a little too flexible......so 

the panel needs to get a little narrower.....which actually increases the potential impact pressure......

ie not a simple, no brainer change......

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1 hour ago, Mudsailor said:

Which, for a deck may mean more glass is needed to add stiffness back......or a bottom panel is now a little too flexible......so 

the panel needs to get a little narrower.....which actually increases the potential impact pressure......

ie not a simple, no brainer change......

That would be true for an un-cored laminate. However, most (well built) hulls and decks are cored. Thats how they gain their stiffness; not through the inherent stiffness of the fiber layers of the sandwich. 

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6 hours ago, stinky said:

That would be true for an un-cored laminate. However, most (well built) hulls and decks are cored. Thats how they gain their stiffness; not through the inherent stiffness of the fiber layers of the sandwich. 

Yep, brain fart....was working on a single skin laminate today.......

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There isn't much difference with sandwich, tends to have thinner skins, but monolithic I wouldn't be surprised to see 10% or more compaction. Depending on how much mat is used.

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Misunderestimated is how good a good hand layup is by a good experienced glasser, of whom there are fewer each year.

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Anyone heard anything about hull 1 and 2 build?  Web says launch spring 2021.  Would be cool to see build / progress photos.

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On 1/1/2021 at 6:39 AM, yoyo said:

Anyone heard anything about hull 1 and 2 build?  Web says launch spring 2021.  Would be cool to see build / progress photos.

Really? I can swing by soon and check it out.

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On 1/7/2021 at 1:52 PM, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

Really? I can swing by soon and check it out.

let me guess what you'll find:

  • no tooling for the 33
  • Nemo still not finished 
  • Ron fuming that Trumps coup failed.

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2 minutes ago, stinky said:

let me guess what you'll find:

  • no tooling for the 33
  • Nemo still not finished 
  • Ron fuming that Trumps coup failed.

That doesn't sound fun. I was just thinking of stopping in next door and saying hi to Craig and asking him anyway.

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On 1/7/2021 at 1:52 PM, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

Really? I can swing by soon and check it out.

59 minutes ago, stinky said:

let me guess what you'll find:

  • no tooling for the 33
  • Nemo still not finished 
  • Ron fuming that Trumps coup failed.
54 minutes ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

That doesn't sound fun. I was just thinking of stopping in next door and saying hi to Craig and asking him anyway.

With all the sailors in that area, you'd think someone would know something.

 

 

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Ron fuming that Trumps coup failed.

Uggggg.......   another disappointing thing to hear.

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