Swimsailor

New Moore 33

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moore33.com is referenced, but the domain seems to be for sale.

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1 hour ago, Swimsailor said:

I found this blurb on the interwebs yesterday.  I hope it's successful for all involved.  Anyone have any details?

https://blog.sfgate.com/latitude38/2020/08/16/the-next-big-thing-in-sailboats-isnt-big/

9 minutes ago, carcrash said:

moore33.com is referenced, but the domain seems to be for sale.

No doubt some cyber squatter from the Lat 38 sphere registered it.

It the M 30 is true, I hope it is a boat that does not need a rail full of weight.
The M 24 sure was fun. I sailed on Zinfandel with Bob and Rex Boyes back in the mid 70's. It sure was fun as well as the production line later on.

 

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15 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

No doubt some cyber squatter from the Lat 38 sphere registered it.

It the M 30 is true, I hope it is a boat that does not need a rail full of weight.
The M 24 sure was fun. I sailed on Zinfandel with Bob and Rex Boyes back in the mid 70's. It sure was fun as well as the production line later on.

 

Given the brief to be a shorthander/offshore. Rail meat wouldn't be the game.

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57 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Given the brief to be a shorthander/offshore. Rail meat wouldn't be the game.

From the article 2 versions - 4 for LD/offshore, 7 for around the cans. 4 is a good number for distance, big crew and people spend a lot of time sitting on their cans rather than racing around them.   From the link:

The trailerable — yes, trailerable — sloop will offer two configurations: one for distance racing with a four-person crew and another for buoy, day or coastal racing with a crew of seven. They plan to release hull numbers one and two in February 2021.

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32 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

From the article 2 versions - 4 for LD/offshore, 7 for around the cans. 4 is a good number for distance, big crew and people spend a lot of time sitting on their cans rather than racing around them.   From the link:

The trailerable — yes, trailerable — sloop will offer two configurations: one for distance racing with a four-person crew and another for buoy, day or coastal racing with a crew of seven. They plan to release hull numbers one and two in February 2021.

I finally read the piece. It sounds like there is only one boat but they can add some of the safety features for the new USS SER. Bulkheads and escape hatches bla bla bla.

I wonder if the safety mods will meet the Intl requirements. That could expand the market.
I look forward to seeing some drawings and build photos.

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Will it be built with famous thin laminar woods down below?  Hope so. What made the Cali ULDB so cool in 70s and 80s.

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Odd that they are pushing two different fully crewed configurations. I'd think emphasizing shorthanded sailing would be the way to go.

It might be interesting to take measurements from a Moore 24 hull, and then engage a good naval architect to scale it up into the 30-35' range. Emphasize simplicity, keep the shape as similar as possible. Optimize for short handing around the US West Coast to Hawaii.

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20 minutes ago, apophenia said:

Odd that they are pushing two different fully crewed configurations. I'd think emphasizing shorthanded sailing would be the way to go.

It might be interesting to take measurements from a Moore 24 hull, and then engage a good naval architect to scale it up into the 30-35' range. Emphasize simplicity, keep the shape as similar as possible. Optimize for short handing around the US West Coast to Hawaii.

Sounds like you want an Olson 30.

As awesome as Moore 24's and Olson 30's are, yacht design and construction have come a long way in 45 years.  I think Alan Andrews is a "good naval architect".  I'm willing to bet it will be simple to rig and sail.  If the boat can be optimized for short handed/fully crewed without too much fuss, why not market to both types of owners?  

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How cool would it be if the M33 gets traction.  Small enough to trailer, and big enough for TransPac.  Sail over with 2 or 4.  Fly back while boat rides trailer on PASHA.  Maybe a few can splash early 2021 with time to prep for TransPac.  Alan will do a great job.  Cant wait to see drawings, estimated polars and ratings. 

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14 minutes ago, yoyo said:

How cool would it be if the M33 gets traction.  Small enough to trailer, and big enough for TransPac.  Sail over with 2 or 4.  Fly back while boat rides trailer on PASHA.  Maybe a few can splash early 2021 with time to prep for TransPac.  Alan will do a great job.  Cant wait to see drawings, estimated polars and ratings. 

Yep!

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1 hour ago, Swimsailor said:

Sounds like you want an Olson 30.

As awesome as Moore 24's and Olson 30's are, yacht design and construction have come a long way in 45 years.  I think Alan Andrews is a "good naval architect".  I'm willing to bet it will be simple to rig and sail.  If the boat can be optimized for short handed/fully crewed without too much fuss, why not market to both types of owners?  

I'd consider Andrews to be an excellent naval architect. I'm suggesting a lesser naval architect - one who is competent enough to update the structural engineering for the larger size and the properties of vacuum / infused layup rather than early hand layup. Otherwise the design should stay true to the original Olson-Moore design.

An O29 has some appeal, maybe that will be my next boat.

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There are a couple of things that have happened since the 70s. And Alan Andrews recent designs, such as Fast Exit, demonstrate these things.

More stability, more volume in the ends, more efficient underwater foils, more efficient ballast, and big asymmetrical spinnakers for downwind.

I would expect the Moore 33 to reflect these newer aspects, rather than those from the 70s. Hence, not much like an Olson. And even the Moore 24 has the reduced volume fore and aft compared to modern planing dinghies, so not much like a Moore 24 either..

 

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4 hours ago, apophenia said:

Odd that they are pushing two different fully crewed configurations. I'd think emphasizing shorthanded sailing would be the way to go.

It might be interesting to take measurements from a Moore 24 hull, and then engage a good naval architect to scale it up into the 30-35' range. Emphasize simplicity, keep the shape as similar as possible. Optimize for short handing around the US West Coast to Hawaii.

I think it’s pretty safe to say a “fully crewed” boat designed for 4 is a short handed design that just happens to have enough bunks to accommodate 4 easily. 

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This is awesome.  I won't be able to afford one, but I want one!

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This space is starting to get a bit crowded. I guess trailerability is novel.  Kinda like a shorthanded FT10.

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1 hour ago, Teener said:

This space is starting to get a bit crowded. I guess trailerability is novel.  Kinda like a shorthanded FT10.

A water ballasted boat similar to an FT10 would be interesting. Probably a bit too narrow too be any good as an all-rounder, but could be an interesting downhill weapon. 

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Reads like an updated Hobie 33 to me. 

Hope Ron can get it together to get one built in the next decade!

 

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9 hours ago, apophenia said:

It might be interesting to take measurements from a Moore 24 hull, and then engage a good naval architect to scale it up into the 30-35' range. 

I believe that is what they did with the UN 30. There is a recent thread on that boat:

I read the article on Lat 38 this am and was wondering about the boat. It is amazing Ron Moore is still building! 

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2 hours ago, stinky said:

Reads like an updated Hobie 33 to me. 

Hope Ron can get it together to get one built in the next decade!

 

Really?  Isn't that whole design brief done and buried?  Long and narrow was great and still has it's moments. But, time to move on.

Btw, written by a huge fan of the SC 50.

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1 hour ago, Hitchhiker said:

Really?  Isn't that whole design brief done and buried?  Long and narrow was great and still has it's moments. But, time to move on.

Btw, written by a huge fan of the SC 50.

Did someone build a more fun all around trailerable one design than the Express 27 while I wasn't watching?

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Waterline helps. 

The difference between 26 and 32 LWL is a whole lot more than a lineal stretch. Especially for old bones.

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7 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Really?  Isn't that whole design brief done and buried?  Long and narrow was great and still has it's moments. But, time to move on.

Btw, written by a huge fan of the SC 50.

Well, he did say trailerable, normally:

lifting keel to get on a trailer
low displacement so towable

limited beam so drivable without permits

 

do all of that in a 10m boat and you get a hobie 33.

 

forgo the beam limit and things open up.

 

 

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6 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Did someone build a more fun all around trailerable one design than the Express 27 while I wasn't watching?

E27 are great boats and many do PacCup.  But they are too small for TransPac minimum of 30' LOA.  That may bring in a few more buyers.  

 

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1 hour ago, Jackdaw said:

Well, he did say trailerable, normally:

lifting keel to get on a trailer
low displacement so towable

limited beam so drivable without permits

 

do all of that in a 10m boat and you get a hobie 33.

 

forgo the beam limit and things open up.

 

 

Not really.  Hobies are only 8 feet wide.  You got at least another foot to go before CHP gets wise.  Melges 32's are 9' 6" and considered trailerable.  If it were me, getting a permit wouldn't be the limiting factor for this boat.  I tow my 9' 6" Capri 25 all over the west and no one has ever bothered me.  I even took the boat across Hoover Dam for a photo op. 

From a design perspective, beam on the new boat will be carried well aft.  The only similarity to a Hobie will be that they’re both 33 foot sailboats.  These comparisons to 40 year old designs are pretty funny.

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37 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Not really.  Hobies are only 8 feet wide.  You got at least another foot to go before CHP gets wise.  Melges 32's are 9' 6" and considered trailerable.  If it were me, getting a permit wouldn't be the limiting factor for this boat.  I tow my 9' 6" Capri 25 all over the west and no one has ever bothered me.  I even took the boat across Hoover Dam for a photo op. 

From a design perspective, beam on the new boat will be carried well aft.  The only similarity to a Hobie will be that they’re both 33 foot sailboats.  These comparisons to 40 year old designs are pretty funny.

We're kinda saying the same thing. I'm also figuring that beam will not be limited by the max non-permit width (9-9.5 feet depending) as it really opens up the design. 

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7 minutes ago, Jackdaw said:

We're kinda saying the same thing. I'm also figuring that beam will not be limited by the max non-permit width (9-9.5 feet depending) as it really opens up the design. 

Aside from the benefits of non-permit towing doesn't a narrower beam also reduce the advantage of maximum crew weight gut-hiking all the time with all of those associated benefits?

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But they are too small for TransPac minimum of 30' LOA.

And the Transpac requires and inboard.

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3 minutes ago, solosailor said:

And the Transpac requires and inboard.

Or an outboard in a well. 

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29 minutes ago, solosailor said:

It's like Dejavu all over again.

Similar design brief to your boat, right?

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Go with an electric inboard. Then you have the charging requirement covered.

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9 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Did someone build a more fun all around trailerable one design than the Express 27 while I wasn't watching?

Yes, several times over.

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7 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Yes, several times over.

Well the Melges 24 and J70 are both fun, trailerable one design boats. However both fleets are riddled with pros, and you can't sail either one offshore or to Hawaii or shorthanded. Around here, at least, neither fleet survived while the Moore 24 and Express 27 classes remain extremely vibrant.

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Go with an electric inboard. Then you have the charging requirement covered.

You mean like prop regen for charging?   That doesn't work very well.  If it did all those Class 40s and Open 60s wouldn't carry Watt&Sea hydro-generators.

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Similar design brief to your boat, right?

Well the Azzura is 30.75 and is much heavier.  4500 plus gear, 2150 in keel.      It's much closer to the design brief for the Antrim 34.

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13 minutes ago, solosailor said:

It's much closer to the design brief for the Antrim 34

Never heard of the Antrim 34 so I looked it up - drawings from 2000 and no specs listed.  I assume none ever built.  Not sure if the design brief included offshore capable but pretty cool looking.  Is this the Dejavu you mentioned?

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25 minutes ago, yoyo said:

Never heard of the Antrim 34 so I looked it up - drawings from 2000 and no specs listed.  I assume none ever built.  Not sure if the design brief included offshore capable but pretty cool looking.  Is this the Dejavu you mentioned?

Good comparison.  The Columbia Carbon 32 comes to mind as well.

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15 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Good comparison.  The Columbia Carbon 32 comes to mind as well.

We have one of these beasties up here in Bayfield. My wife was giving it the look-over, and noted that there was no place to hold on while taking a dump in the wide open forepeak. She asked;

"is that why they left it raw black, to cover up the shit stains"?

 

'Why I love her' reason #8372

 

Screen Shot 2020-08-18 at 11.58.02 AM.png

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16 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Really?  Isn't that whole design brief done and buried?  Long and narrow was great and still has it's moments. But, time to move on.

Btw, written by a huge fan of the SC 50.

so you're saying that shoving a 2x4 in the Hobie 33 mold won't cut it?

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The 8'6" max beam thing is significant if and only if you think you will be involved in a problem on the road.

There is no standard for length, beam, or height that is consistent across the USA other than 8'6" being always legal in every state. The EU is much more consistent at 2.5 meters wide (8'3") and 20 meters length (I forget the height limit, and thing might have changed over the past couple of decades).

In some states, including California, you can get permits trivially for wider loads, up to 9'6" or 10', and long loads beyond 40', and high loads above about 11 feet. There are usually limitations on where you can go, but those limitations are usually pretty benign, such as only on residential roads if its near your start or destination.

The risk: In many states, the permit says "If you are in an accident, that is prima facie evidence that it was unsafe to tow." In other words, any accident becomes your fault. Also, most states have restrictions based on time of day, day of week, and days near holidays. So if you want to be legal, you often cannot tow for 10 days before and after holidays, cannot or must tow at night, cannot tow in the rain, and so on.

So while in practical cases its not a problem at all to tow much wider loads -- even my 11'3" beam 11' high Olson 40 on a trailer -- it may well be somewhat illegal and you accept liability from all the idiots on the road.

Personally, I would consider towing a wider boat and ignoring the laws. Especially as the laws are contradictory and inconsistent. Hence, one could probably win fighting a ticket if you use a lawyer. But it is still an annoyance, a constant concern.

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7 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Well the Melges 24 and J70 are both fun, trailerable one design boats. However both fleets are riddled with pros, and you can't sail either one offshore or to Hawaii or shorthanded. Around here, at least, neither fleet survived while the Moore 24 and Express 27 classes remain extremely vibrant.

All well and good.  But, that does not deal with the fact that there are many trailerable designs out now that not only beat the pants off either of the San Fran centric boats you have mentioned, but also can be raced to Hawaii in Transpac and then shipped back on a trailer.

 

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2 hours ago, stinky said:

so you're saying that shoving a 2x4 in the Hobie 33 mold won't cut it?

I guess if it worked for the Moore, it could work for the Hobie. But..............

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Wrt towing.  There are methods to comply with the legal width requirements.  One method being to tilt the vessel and trailer cradle/bunks.  Maybe a bit cumbersome, although the Far East 28 cradle has a cool novel approach.

fareast.jpg

triad-trailers-custom-sailboat-j125-boat-04.jpg

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4 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Wrt towing.  There are methods to comply with the legal width requirements.  One method being to tilt the vessel and trailer cradle/bunks.  Maybe a bit cumbersome, although the Far East 28 cradle has a cool novel approach.

fareast.jpg

triad-trailers-custom-sailboat-j125-boat-04.jpg

You don’t have the tilt the 125 in California. We pulled the hammer up from SD to SF keep on. 

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18 hours ago, carcrash said:

The 8'6" max beam thing is significant if and only if you think you will be involved in a problem on the road.

So while in practical cases its not a problem at all to tow much wider loads -- even my 11'3" beam 11' high Olson 40 on a trailer -- it may well be somewhat illegal and you accept liability from all the idiots on the road.

Personally, I would consider towing a wider boat and ignoring the laws. Especially as the laws are contradictory and inconsistent. Hence, one could probably win fighting a ticket if you use a lawyer. But it is still an annoyance, a constant concern.

My zap is 9'3" on deck but it is an 80's flared design. With a draft of 5'5" it is way up so my only issue, when I trailer'd it from Ventura to Watsonville (Moore Fab), was the semi truck/trailer that i got next too. I never was stopped by the CHP or any police. It was a bit nerve racking when I looked in my mirror and saw the clearance between the boat and the tractor trailers. Just hold straight.

I did not put a wide load sign on the back, but I should have. If I ever trailer it again. I will put red lights on the deck and the sign on the back.

Zap26_103013.jpg

 

I like the way the MC 31 has trimmed off the excess beam at the rail. Probably easier on the legs for hiking too.

0dc1b2_b33dd19c9f1140da8a46a4deb9e8064f~

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Can’t believe we have a thread about ~30’ offshore racing boats and nobody mention The Cone

 

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This will be exciting to follow. Hope it turns into something special. 

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22 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

My zap is 9'3" on deck but it is an 80's flared design. With a draft of 5'5" it is way up so my only issue, when I trailer'd it from Ventura to Watsonville (Moore Fab), was the semi truck/trailer that i got next too. I never was stopped by the CHP or any police. It was a bit nerve racking when I looked in my mirror and saw the clearance between the boat and the tractor trailers. Just hold straight.

Same here, my boat is similar and on the trailer it doesn't look like a wide load, but when I went through the toll booths in the Bay area, I watched with great trepidation as the rails squeezed through...

I did have one close call, at dusk, from an onramp a merging car eyeballed the trailer and didn't apparently notice the rudder hanging down about 5' further aft, but luckily they missed it 

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The reason the liability issue for wider than 8'6" beam boats was real for me: I used to tow my red and white 32' sport fishing boat (40' including trailer tongue and tilted outdrives, 10k lbs) with my red F350 dually, the vast majority of weekends, at least 40 times per year each way. Sure seemed like a high visibility item going down the road, but no! I had people do utterly boneheaded moves almost every time I towed anywhere.

Multiple times, idiots would try to merge or change lanes between truck and boat!

The best: Towing through downtown LA, northbound on the 110 freeway, just after the tunnels near Dodger Stadium, I needed to take the left lane onto an interchange to the 5 freeway north. Today, it is two lanes, so a bit less of a cluster, but at the time, it was one lane, and the game was to cut into that one lane at the last possible moment. The traffic in the left lane leading up to that interchange was always stop and go, with many rear end collisions. As I was approaching the turn, and therefore the last possible moment, I am of course already in the left lane. I needed to get into that left lane well before hand, with the total load length of 65' for truck, trailer, and boat.

So some girl in a small pickup truck passes the boat, passes the truck... almost. As soon as her head was a foot in front of my bumper, with the rest of her truck alongside, she just turned. Her left rear wheel hit my front right wheel, and her truck was immediately turned 90 degrees across the front of my truck. As the now co-joined vehicles made the entrance into the narrow interchange, the rear end of her truck hit barrels filled with sand on the right, and the front of her truck was being ground down by the rock wall on the left. We came to a stop, like a cork in a bottle, wedged in with a total mass over over 10,000 kgs. Her drivers side window was now right out my drivers side window. We could and did exchange licenses and insurance cards while still sitting in our seats with seatbelts on. Her truck was now wrapped around the front of my truck, as if it was aluminum foil. Tow trucks came and separated the two vehicles. Hers was a twisted mess, mine had a one inch scratch in one headlight lens cover.

Obviously, her fault. But if that boat was wider than 8'6", AND THE CHP MEASURED IT, then I would have been my fault. The CHP (California Highway Patrol) did not measure, so I probably would have been OK.

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I towed an Olson 40 trailer from San Diego to San Fran once behind a big van. Multiple drivers tried to merge in just behind the van, somehow not seeing the looong trailer with tall uprights. I would watch them in the mirrors with stiff forearms waiting for the impact. Luckily all managed to wake up without contact, but there was a lot of swerving reactions.

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2 hours ago, longy said:

I towed an Olson 40 trailer from San Diego to San Fran once behind a big van. Multiple drivers tried to merge in just behind the van, somehow not seeing the looong trailer with tall uprights. I would watch them in the mirrors with stiff forearms waiting for the impact. Luckily all managed to wake up without contact, but there was a lot of swerving reactions.

Had the same issue when we campaigned the OneD 35; with the extra bonus of the side mounted mast.

Good times.

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On 8/17/2020 at 11:53 AM, apophenia said:

Odd that they are pushing two different fully crewed configurations. I'd think emphasizing shorthanded sailing would be the way to go.

It might be interesting to take measurements from a Moore 24 hull, and then engage a good naval architect to scale it up into the 30-35' range. Emphasize simplicity, keep the shape as similar as possible. Optimize for short handing around the US West Coast to Hawaii.

I think you just described a Wilderness 30.

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4 hours ago, longy said:

I towed an Olson 40 trailer from San Diego to San Fran once behind a big van. Multiple drivers tried to merge in just behind the van, somehow not seeing the looong trailer with tall uprights. I would watch them in the mirrors with stiff forearms waiting for the impact. Luckily all managed to wake up without contact, but there was a lot of swerving reactions.

People are idiots and there is no way to legislate them off the road.

Driving is a right, not a privilege.

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8 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

People are idiots and there is no way to legislate them off the road.

Driving is a right, not a privilege.

What's the point of driving licenses if driving isn't a privilege?

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9 hours ago, Panoramix said:

What's the point of driving licenses if driving isn't a privilege?

You are located in France and have an understanding of the difference between rights and privileges. I think MW was ironic, but this is indeed the perception of driving in the US. "Even if I am drunk as a skunk and high as a kite you cannot take away my right to drive." So yes, being an idiot does not take away their "right."

And I can tell from experience that a drivers test in the US is an absolute joke. 

 

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What's the toll booth clearance in Cal? 9-6" seems right, 9-3" perhaps close enough. Just under 3:1 B/L at 10m.

Wondering about the full crwed option, given the pandemic, how much more viable is shorthanded racing now? 2 on, 2 off is more critical for racers who can't use autopilots. Otherwise a rotating 3 is maybe a good fit for a Transpac. If you don't want a doublehander.

Incorporating water ballast into the bunks seems like it could value added or a DSS type system. The 1 interview with the pom about the Figaro 3 he said the foil is for leeward lift to reduce heeling more than reduce displacement. Good way to stay light.

Incrementalism mayn't be the way to go 45 years after the ULDB revolution. A cheap way to have water ballast as an option is to put in the plumbing then put water ski bags on deck, and leaks go overboard. Plumbing is the big hurdle.

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54 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

You are located in France and have an understanding of the difference between rights and privileges. I think MW was ironic, but this is indeed the perception of driving in the US. "Even if I am drunk as a skunk and high as a kite you cannot take away my right to drive." So yes, being an idiot does not take away their "right."

And I can tell from experience that a drivers test in the US is an absolute joke. 

 

Sorry I missed the purple font! We also have idiots here who think that drink driving is fine...

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On 8/22/2020 at 12:46 AM, Panoramix said:

What's the point of driving licenses if driving isn't a privilege?

 

On 8/22/2020 at 10:38 AM, AnotherSailor said:

You are located in France and have an understanding of the difference between rights and privileges. I think MW was ironic, but this is indeed the perception of driving in the US. "Even if I am drunk as a skunk and high as a kite you cannot take away my right to drive." So yes, being an idiot does not take away their "right."

And I can tell from experience that a drivers test in the US is an absolute joke. 

 

Yes, I was being sarcastic. It is a privilege to drive but the nannies have turned it into a perceived right to drive. Especially here in CA.

South Park has a funny episode called "Grey Dawn" on this subject.

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On 8/18/2020 at 4:55 PM, Hitchhiker said:

All well and good.  But, that does not deal with the fact that there are many trailerable designs out now that not only beat the pants off either of the San Fran centric boats you have mentioned, but also can be raced to Hawaii in Transpac and then shipped back on a trailer.

 

I would be interested to hear what designs those would be. Yes, faster but practical or smart?  Emphasis on getting there in one piece without carrying a big crew. 

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On 8/22/2020 at 8:08 PM, Bruno said:

Incrementalism mayn't be the way to go 45 years after the ULDB revolution. A cheap way to have water ballast as an option is to put in the plumbing then put water ski bags on deck, and leaks go overboard. Plumbing is the big hurdle. 

Going scow or canting keel would both be bigger steps than water ballast, i guess.

Also water ballast sounds like a system that's super annoying to deal with.

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On 8/21/2020 at 4:42 PM, Meat Wad said:

People are idiots and there is no way to legislate them off the road.

Driving is a right, not a privilege.

raised_hand.gif.6ba55ba6299bd19d92dbcea50b6085db.gif

That would be me.

Driving is either being hyper vigilant for other driver idiots, in which case my blood pressure soars and I arrive at my destination a burnt-out mess, or flipping into autopilot where the speed limit is whatever all the other cars are doing and I simply respond to whatever is happening, defaulting to normal conditions sans incidents, in which case I might doze off or not pick up on the fact there is a trailer behind a non-commercial towing vehicle. There really isn't a middle road with me. If it is calm road conditions punctuated by semi-frequent surprises, the constant spike in adrenaline can put me into a narcoleptic tendency.

When towing, I am pretty much in the hyper vigilant mode. But if the load is set up well and the tongue weight is spot on, I can forget that I'm towing. I make the argument that your towing set-up should not be configured correctly, thus keeping you on your toes to avoid crashing even under perfect benign conditions.

All things being equal, I'd rather not drive.

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2 hours ago, Nick G said:

I would be interested to hear what designs those would be. Yes, faster but practical or smart?  Emphasis on getting there in one piece without carrying a big crew. 

Well, you could always start with four (five) boats that have already completed races to Hawaii and can be trailered.  Melges 32, Hendo 30, (Farr 30), J-100 and 1D35.  You could also add a C&C 30 OD.  All of these boats meet at least the min LOA requirements.  May not all meet the Stability screening, but then there have been other entries in the past that needed some work to meet the stability. 

Practical or smart?  We're talking about racing some 2300 nm offshore on a small boat with small crew.  Not sure that meets the definition of practical or smart!

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1 hour ago, Hitchhiker said:

Well, you could always start with four (five) boats that have already completed races to Hawaii and can be trailered.  Melges 32, Hendo 30, (Farr 30), J-100 and 1D35.  You could also add a C&C 30 OD.  All of these boats meet at least the min LOA requirements.  May not all meet the Stability screening, but then there have been other entries in the past that needed some work to meet the stability. 

Practical or smart?  We're talking about racing some 2300 nm offshore on a small boat with small crew.  Not sure that meets the definition of practical or smart!

Melges 32- not for your average sea monkeys. I'd be surprised if even that insane clown posse would do that again.

Hendo 30- might be the ticket if someone ever properly prepared one i.e. kept the ocean on the outside of the boat.

Farr 30- sure, still waiting for one in the right hands to kill it in a Hawaii race

J-100- I guess? but I thought we were looking for boats faster than a Hobie 33.

1D35- solid history to Hawaii but a pretty big boat compared to older ULDBs.

C&C 30- you have to be fucking kidding me.

I'd also mention:

Antrim 27- proven winner.

J-90- one of the two J boats that goes fast enough to justify a sprit.

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13 minutes ago, stinky said:

 

J-100- I guess? but I thought we were looking for boats faster than a Hobie 33.

 

Pay attention. The comp boats were the Moore 24 and Express 27.

Edit. The Antrim 27 is too short for Transpac.

If you're worried about going offshore on any of the boats I listed, that have already been sailed to Hawaii, then no way are you going on a J-90.  I doubt you would make it much past San Nic.   :ph34r:

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11 minutes ago, stinky said:

 

J-90- one of the two J boats that goes fast enough to justify a sprit.

Agree and the other one fits on a trailer as well. Just need 5 or 6 for Hawaii. 

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7 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Pay attention. The comp boats were the Moore 24 and Express 27.

Edit. The Antrim 27 is too short for Transpac.

If you're worried about going offshore on any of the boats I listed, that have already been sailed to Hawaii, then no way are you gong on a J-90.  I doubt you would make it much past San Nic.   :ph34r:

I think you're confused, if were comparing the the Express 27 and Moore 24, we aren't talking about Transpac. lol.

 

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14 minutes ago, stinky said:

I think you're confused, if were comparing the the Express 27 and Moore 24, we aren't talking about Transpac. lol.

 

 

comp says no.jpg

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Supposedly inertial ballasting is used in some conditions, how does that compare to leeward lift devices upwind? This is supposed to an all arounder, I thought, not just a sled. So capable of modern performance upwind and reaching, normally iirc that requires high form stability,  canters are supposed to want a stiffer canoe body, this where an NA can add the value rather than just tweak existing models. Offwind planing as well as surfing means light and wide, at least in the right spots. Water ballast is more trouble perhaps than a canter but also much cheaper. A line driven canter is viable in this size but you lose the responsiveness from an hydraulic system. Assymetric daggers vs centerline, rotating rig, deck spreaders, reaching struts, etc etc.

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What's  inertial ballasting?  I know physics so go ahead and use big terms.  

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9 hours ago, stinky said:

Melges 32- not for your average sea monkeys. I'd be surprised if even that insane clown posse would do that again.

Hendo 30- might be the ticket if someone ever properly prepared one i.e. kept the ocean on the outside of the boat.

Farr 30- sure, still waiting for one in the right hands to kill it in a Hawaii race

J-100- I guess? but I thought we were looking for boats faster than a Hobie 33.

1D35- solid history to Hawaii but a pretty big boat compared to older ULDBs.

C&C 30- you have to be fucking kidding me.

I'd also mention:

Antrim 27- proven winner.

J-90- one of the two J boats that goes fast enough to justify a sprit.

The Farr 30 lacks volume in the bow to race offshore downwind. When it was the tour de France boat even the pros would go regularly in submarine mode downwind in heavy air.

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10 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

What's  inertial ballasting?  I know physics so go ahead and use big terms.  

I don't so perhaps I used the wrong term. I thought that some were using forward tanks upwind to keep the bow down and the extra weight helped the boat keep moving in waves. And that some weight was transferred to a centerline but aft tank running to keep the bow up. Sometimes lighter isn't better seemed to be the idea.

As opposed to just having side tanks for heel trim having centerline tanks for fore n aft trim. Not for roll stabilization, though countering that is always nice.

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On 8/23/2020 at 2:14 PM, Hitchhiker said:

Well, you could always start with four (five) boats that have already completed races to Hawaii and can be trailered.  Melges 32, Hendo 30, (Farr 30), J-100 and 1D35.  You could also add a C&C 30 OD.

And which of those has very active one design fleets doing buoy racing as well as ocean racing like the Express 27 and Moore 24? Moore 24 Nationals wrapped up yesterday with 15 boats... How many OD35's are expected at this year's Nationals? How many J-100's? etc.

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58 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

 Moore 24 Nationals wrapped up yesterday with 15 boats...

I know my friend won it........Again.

My point was there have been a lot of designs since either of those, again very San Fran centric, classes that have competed in long distance off shore races.  That is all.

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1 hour ago, Hitchhiker said:

I know my friend won it........Again.

My point was there have been a lot of designs since either of those, again very San Fran centric, classes that have competed in long distance off shore races.  That is all.

any of them do it with a one-design class?

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1 hour ago, Hitchhiker said:

I know my friend won it........Again.

My point was there have been a lot of designs since either of those, again very San Fran centric, classes that have competed in long distance off shore races.  That is all.

Well, that is true. And it is true that the examples I selected are San Fran centric because, well, I live in San Fran.

However, my point is that more recent designs are not inherently better. They might be faster, but if your objective is to get from point a to point b rapidly then sailing is a very expensive way to not accomplish that. If you want a trailerable boat that can be buoy raced one design and raced across the ocean then there aren't better choices, and your selection of Melges 32, Hendo 30, (Farr 30), J-100 and 1D35 reinforces that point.

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2 hours ago, stinky said:

any of them do it with a one-design class?

Trunk Monkey did it when there was still a OD class for Farr 30. What is this fascination with one design class? If you really want to sail OD, get a Laser.  If you want to sail offshore get a boat that can accomplish the task.

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2 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

 They might be faster, but if your objective is to get from point a to point b rapidly then sailing is a very expensive way to not accomplish that.

It's a boat race! The point is exactly to get from point a to point b rapidly.  Preferably more rapidly than the next bloke.

I'm afraid that this thread has drifted way off course.

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42 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

It's a boat race! The point is exactly to get from point a to point b rapidly.  Preferably more rapidly than the next bloke.

I'm afraid that this thread has drifted way off course.

In one design the objective is to get there more rapidly than the next bloke. In handicap racing the objective is to get there faster compared to your rating than the other bloke compared to his rating. The only time speed is the ultimate object is in first to finish or in record setting like round the world or in a trench in Namibia. An OD35 is not a good boat for setting records although they were fun to sail when they were a one design. For that matter so was the Mumm 30.

The boats you mentioned (Melges 32, Hendo 30, (Farr 30), J-100 and 1D35) are all many times more expensive to acquire and campaign competitively than the Express 27 or Moore 24. None of them have significant one design fleets anymore as far as I know (maybe the Melges 32 still has a pro circuit in Europe?). None of them is likely to have a one design fleet 20 years from now. Are any of them IRC killers? I don't know the answer to that. So by what objective criteria can you call any of them a better design? I suppose if you don't care about one design racing, don't care about value for money, don't care about longevity or durability, don't care about winning on handicap and don't care about first to finish then maybe one of these is a good choice for reasons I can't think of. If you just want to have fun reaching around real fast why not get an old 505 or a Melges 24 or a Donzi?

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On 8/23/2020 at 3:36 PM, Hitchhiker said:

Pay attention. The comp boats were the Moore 24 and Express 27.

Edit. The Antrim 27 is too short for Transpac.

If you're worried about going offshore on any of the boats I listed, that have already been sailed to Hawaii, then no way are you going on a J-90.  I doubt you would make it much past San Nic.   :ph34r:

Antrim 27 has raced over 2-3 times in the Pacific Cup.  The new carbon version is signed up to go next time.

Ryan Finn raced a J/90 to Hawaii in the 2004 singlehanded race.

There are these other races to Hawaii for the rest of us.  Usually tougher due to the conditions off San Francisco, and no designated chefs or hairdressers on board.

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2 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

The boats you mentioned (Melges 32, Hendo 30, (Farr 30), J-100 and 1D35) are all many times more expensive to acquire and campaign competitively than the Express 27 or Moore 24. 

I sailed part time on an Express 27 in the Detroit fleet and that boat does not have a bad day.  One of my best days of sailing was at a NOOD in Detroit on an E27.  The owner had a work commitment and asked me to skipper the first day, so of course, I got on the phone.  A good friend and much better sailor than me agreed to show up and do what you do with someone who doesn't know the boat, put them on the helm.  So, two races. The first, we just did nothing right and ended up in the middle.  The second race was cool.  We started in about 8kts and were not great and then a front came thru and we're now in 25kts.  Still rounded the first mark in 6/9 or so, and started picking them off.  On the way uphill, we had a HS age kid who was doing the whole wave...wave...wave...wave bullshit.  My buddy says, shut up kid, they're all waves.  Probably rounded 3rd or so and reached the top mark 2nd.  On that downwind, the Etchells had caught us at the leeward mark, my buddy says, this is gong to be really good, or really bad.  We got inside and pinwheeled everyone and heard several of the Etchells trading paint.  Our lead boat was on the outside and we never looked back.  

The Express , Olson 30, or Hobie 33 are all on my short list of fun boats to sail.  

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7 hours ago, BobJ said:

There are these other races to Hawaii for the rest of us.  Usually tougher due to the conditions off San Francisco, and no designated chefs or hairdressers on board.

You cant take chefs or hairdressers on the "fun race" to Hawaii? That must suck.

 

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9 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Trunk Monkey did it when there was still a OD class for Farr 30. What is this fascination with one design class? If you really want to sail OD, get a Laser.  If you want to sail offshore get a boat that can accomplish the task.

Have you ever done any offshore one design racing? Nothing keeps you honest like a few sisterships playing the same game. 

Skip and Jody probably would have done much better in 2010 if there'd been another mumm 30 racing. Might have kept them from sailing 1/2 way to Alaska and then over standing oahu.

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