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Leeroy Jenkins

HURTH Transmission slipping in fwd - pull the boat?

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So my Hurth (HPW 125 or 150 from the 80s is my best guess right now) transmission is slipping in forward.  It doesn't feel or sound like its engaging and won't spin the shaft above idle despite increasing RPMs.  You can watch it slip.  Removing the linkage and moving the shift lever by hand was no different.  Reverse sounds/feels fine.  Some people have reported simply changing the ATF fixed the same problem.  I had my doubts but of course I tried it.  No change, not surprised.  

Went out for a week at the beginning of August and put around 30 hours on it including a long last day (+- 7hrs) across the Strait and up the River.  No problems at all.  Everything felt/sounded/performed great.  I didn't fill the transmission at the end of last year and it sat for six months without turning.  If that's what caused this, I'll own it.  But "All Of A Sudden" like that?  Seems a bit strange.

So unless there's something I can check at the shift lever (I know there isn't but here's hoping),  I'm going to have to pull it and rebuild something.  Any pro tips on that would be appreciated, but what I want to know right away is if removing the gearbox from the engine while the boat is in the water is a bad idea.  Let's assume that there's enough space to leave the engine where it is, the stuffing box is cranked tight and that the shaft is well supported and the boat isn't going to sink.  Will it throw the alignment WAY off?  I'm anticipating it being out some but still manageable when reinstalled.  What else?  Has anybody done this themselves? 

If any of the Lower Mainland or Vancouver Island guys know anyone who supplies parts for these or services them please chime in.  Thanks.

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Yes, it's likely the clutch plates.  Given its estimated age I'm sure there's more waiting to go, and the clutch plates are just the beginning. 

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No you won't sink the boat or lose alignment to any major degree. When the gearbox goes back on, it's bolting to a machined bell housing surface. Not much room for wiggle or change of position.

DO support the shaft with a wood block or something taped to the shaft just aft of the coupling

DO fit a hose clamp just before the stuffing box or shaft seal to prevent the shaft from sliding aft

You mentioned the River. If you are moored in the Fraser or some place with current, think about how to stop the shaft spinning too.  Maybe a few big C clamps or bar clamps attached to the shaft and blocked against the hull so it can't spin either direction.

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Sent you a PM about who NOT to use - I've spent the whole summer on the hard trying to get my Hurth HBW 150 repaired - so far it's still leaking.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Sent you a PM about who NOT to use - I've spent the whole summer on the hard trying to get my Hurth HBW 150 repaired - so far it's still leaking.

Did you ever get a quote to replace it? 

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Over 6 grand.

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6 grand is nuts unless they silver plate it & serve with it with caviar.

 

Here's a place in England offering rebuilt ones for ~1000 pounds

https://www.drinkwaard.com/en/reconditioned-gearboxes/reconditioned-gearbox-hbw150-zf15m/

 

Ebay france seller that says it is a genuine ZF dealer:  ZF 15M which they say is a replacement for the HBW150 - $2500 NEW

https://www.cafr.ebay.ca/itm/ZF-15M-1-9-1-Marine-Boat-Transmission-Gearbox-Hurth-HBW150-3306002004-/291583951744

 

Closer company in WA stage $1873 USD new

https://www.fredwarner.net/product/zf-15m-1-91-marine-boat-transmission-gearbox-hurth-hbw150-3306002004/

 

full rebuild kit for HBW

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hurth-HBW-10-150-Late-Marine-Transmission-Master-Rebuilding-Kit-/232700149570

 

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Thanks for that Zonk - if it doesn't get properly fixed this time I may bite the bullet and buy a new one. Shit, I'll have spent nearly that already.

Mine's a V-Drive so rarer and doubtlessly more expensive.

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I'm just getting into job now.  Getting the shaft off.  

Looking at what's ahead I'm starting to wonder if it would be faster to just hoist the whole show out of the bilge.  I'd be able to really scrub out the sump, and get a couple of tools back too. 

The guy I used to do the alignment switched the mounts from the soft ones that came from the guy I bought the engine from to really stiff ones and used questionable materials to block them up since they're about 5/8" shorter.  I could replace those too. 

Maybe there's a haul out in my future after all. 

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4 hours ago, Zonker said:

6 grand is nuts unless they silver plate it & serve with it with caviar.

 

Here's a place in England offering rebuilt ones for ~1000 pounds

https://www.drinkwaard.com/en/reconditioned-gearboxes/reconditioned-gearbox-hbw150-zf15m/

 

Ebay france seller that says it is a genuine ZF dealer:  ZF 15M which they say is a replacement for the HBW150 - $2500 NEW

https://www.cafr.ebay.ca/itm/ZF-15M-1-9-1-Marine-Boat-Transmission-Gearbox-Hurth-HBW150-3306002004-/291583951744

 

Closer company in WA stage $1873 USD new

https://www.fredwarner.net/product/zf-15m-1-91-marine-boat-transmission-gearbox-hurth-hbw150-3306002004/

 

full rebuild kit for HBW

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hurth-HBW-10-150-Late-Marine-Transmission-Master-Rebuilding-Kit-/232700149570

 

That's reasonably close to what some have been saying in other forums.  

 

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critical for long life the housing with the shift lever is mounted such that its exactly in the middle of forward and reverse measured by the angle the lever goes to when engaging.
The holes in that plate are large for the studs to allow for this.

Use Ford spec atf as its thinner

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3 hours ago, Sailabout said:

Use Ford spec atf as its thinner

All the ATF I see now is Dexron/Mercon - no longer brand specific.

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8 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

All the ATF I see now is Dexron/Mercon - no longer brand specific.

Type F was the go.

Years ago  ( 80's) when i was a BMW marine dealer ( Hurth built the clutch pack in the sterndrive or designed it and supplied the parts or something) out of the blue we had slipping clutches and on small hurth boxes as well.

Whilst we also had BW velvet drives blowing up, burning clutches. Nobody ever said the oil changed but in my opinion thats what caused it. Something got added or removed from ATF.
Big shit fight in Australia as MerCruiser did a purchase and w/tee deal with BW in the USA but not in Australia, lots of lawyers involved and new boxes flown out as we couldnt do a rebuild under w/tee.
As neither BW or Hurth looked at the oil afaik lots of stuff was tried to get over it.
Hurth boxes got spiral cut fibre discs to help shed oil, they asked us to use F spec atf,
BW asked to put 10w hydraulic fluid in the boxes and add vent bottles to deal with the oil they blew out.
Hurth via BMW told us about the shift housing alignment.

So maybe its like old v8s with non roller cams, todays oil with the zinc removed wont work for them anymore.

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I was using type F. 

If I ever had to do it again I'd do it in place.  But on Wednesday I pulled the engine out and was able to recover about $30 in 1/2" wrenches from the sump, plus a nice little Pelican flashlight - that still works!  I'm going to use the opportunity to paint and tidy up some wiring.  Bilge and engine. 

I was wrong about which model transmission it was.  Mine was actually smaller than the 150.  Found a new drop in replacement in Sidney for $1200.

@SloopJonB give Gartside Marine a call if you can't sort things out here. 

Anyone know if realignment can be done while I'm still in the water? 

If I replace the engine mounts? 

949664561_20200909_1308462.thumb.jpg.d3e292bd654095380734c87bea1a5796.jpg

 

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39 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

@SloopJonB give Gartside Marine a call if you can't sort things out here. 

Anyone know if realignment can be done while I'm still in the water? 

If I replace the engine mounts? 

949664561_20200909_1308462.thumb.jpg.d3e292bd654095380734c87bea1a5796.jpg

 

I think I found the right guy - got it back late this afternoon - the 5th time I pulled it out. Thank God it only weighs 18 Kilos.

I can pull it in 1 hour now.

Re: shaft alignment - the final alignment must be done in the water - boats change shape a little on the hard VS fully supported in the water.

Do an alignment on the hard - that will be good enough to get you back to your berth (assuming you are fairly close to it, not a 50 mile trip) - then do the final alignment. Remember it has to be accurate to a few thou. - IIRC the last install I did (25 years ago) it had to be within 7 thou of concentric.

If you replace your mounts, only remove or move the top nuts so you can lift the engine off them. Then get some good calipers and measure the distances between the mounting faces for the bed and where the engine plates sit on the old mounts - then set the new mounts to those measurements. That will get you very close to your current position and will minimize the adjustments needed.

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