Jules

Applying Numbers to Sails

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Is there any trick to applying adhesive-backed numbers to sails?  The sails will be new.

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12 minutes ago, crankcall said:

have whoever made the sails do it? 

Already bought the numbers plus made the mfg insignia to apply with the numbers. 

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A coupelle of lite pencille guidelines, lay numberes oute foire spaceng and rotatione.  Slowley peelle backeng dowen (slowley) whille holdeng numbere in place.                      :)

 

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From experience on Oppies, Toppers & Lasers (4.7: 230mm, Radial: 300mm)

Check the class rules before you start and make sure you know how much it matters and where they need to go

 Draw guidelines in pencil marking the relevant edge (might be top or bottom, depending on the above) and use conservative spacing (eg a little more than the minimum)

 Start from your reference corner, peel a little backing off and stick the exposed bit down. Check position and orientation before proceeding.

 Slide your open hand over the fabric number, allowing (and gently encouraging) the backing to come away underneath as you follow the shape of the number, allowing it to find it's own way onto the sail (it will orientate itself from the corner where you started, and will go down without creasing if you get the right balance of pressure).

 Press onto the sail to secure.

Cheers,

              W.

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The only additional advice I have to the above- make your pencil lines light, they will be hard to erase later.

I also use blue painters tape for many things, and here is a good one. Use two small tabs of blue tape to secure two adjacent corners of the number or sail insignia in place, while getting started to peel -n- stick.

Once you've gotten the position marked, peel back just a tiny corner of the backing so you can get it started, then put it in the right place firmly with the blue tape. Then lift the least amount you can to get started pulling the backing and sticking the number/insignia in place. It takes four hands, do this on a big floor. Knee pads and a hardwood floor is much better than carpet. A helper holding the sail tight & flat where you're working is invaluable. It can also be done on a big table but your helper has to be pre-warned to not let the sail slide off.

It's amazing the shit that can go wrong with an operation that seems so simple.

Another technique is to use a large-diameter dowel, get one corner in place, then slide the backing off as you slide the number/insignia around the dowel and into place.

FB- Doug

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Reiterate, read the rules.

Numbers the correct size. In the right place, distance from leech, height.

At the correct spacing.

With the correct side high.

It's not hard, but the only thing worse than sticking numbers on is pulling then off after they fail measurement.

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Check twice and stick once!!  Sails I got with my used boat (from a well regarded sail maker) had two numbers transposed on one side.  No ones noticed, even in the few fleet races I've entered.  I suppose the finish taker might it was him that transposed the two numbers.  :P    If I raced more I'd go to the bother of changing them.

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Lay the area to place the numbers flat. Usually they follow a seam or a batten that is horizontal.

Lay out the numbers and check to see if it looks right.

Sometimes a light pencil line is good (dacron sails) 

Peel a small section of the backing off (I used to start at the top) and hold it off the sail as you place the number in it place and then lay it down. Slowly from underneath start peeling the backing down while you use your fingers to go back and forth making sure the number is applying to the sail without any bubbles or creases.

Zeros and eights are the hardest.

After a few years of doing this you will be a pro.

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I learned from a co-worker in the 80s when doing tape pinstripes on new cars that a little mantra is helpful.

"Can't see it from my house"

Replace 'house' with 'cockpit' and just slap them on there.

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7 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

A coupelle of lite pencille guidelines, lay numberes oute foire spaceng and rotatione.  Slowley peelle backeng dowen (slowley) whille holdeng numbere in place.                      :)

 

Yeah, you probably googled the answer to look smart!:P

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5 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:
7 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

A coupelle of lite pencille guidelines, lay numberes oute foire spaceng and rotatione.  Slowley peelle backeng dowen (slowley) whille holdeng numbere in place.                      :)

 

Yeah, you probably googled the answer to look smart!:P

And you prolley invite goode criew to macke you looke faste.                                            :)

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8 hours ago, eric1207 said:

Check twice and stick once!!  Sails I got with my used boat (from a well regarded sail maker) had two numbers transposed on one side.  No ones noticed, even in the few fleet races I've entered.  I suppose the finish taker might it was him that transposed the two numbers.  :P    If I raced more I'd go to the bother of changing them.

Got a brand new A sail from the regular sailmaker,  (one of the big names),  came with another customer's sail number.

Another one came with no numbers at all,  that one took months to notice!

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Thank you, all.  I've never done this before so I appreciate the help.

The sailmaker was asking a bundle for the insignia so we decided to do everything ourselves.  I saw a website that gave the locations of the insignia and numbers.  Had no idea that even existed but pretty cool. 

I'm still playing with the insignia and how to make it work.  I'm kinda leaning toward putting the "32" at an angle with the Aloha "A". 
Signa_003.jpg.fb46e9ed759e2061f7525f75dc4a7fa4.jpg

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13 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

A coupelle of lite pencille guidelines, lay numberes oute foire spaceng and rotatione.  Slowley peelle backeng dowen (slowley) whille holdeng numbere in place.                      :)

 

Should you sand the surface a little first before applying the numbers?

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8 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Lay the area to place the numbers flat. Usually they follow a seam or a batten that is horizontal.

Lay out the numbers and check to see if it looks right.

Sometimes a light pencil line is good (dacron sails) 

Peel a small section of the backing off (I used to start at the top) and hold it off the sail as you place the number in it place and then lay it down. Slowly from underneath start peeling the backing down while you use your fingers to go back and forth making sure the number is applying to the sail without any bubbles or creases.

Zeros and eights are the hardest.

After a few years of doing this you will be a pro.

I find 2s and 5s the hardest

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4 hours ago, Jules said:

Thank you, all.  I've never done this before so I appreciate the help.

The sailmaker was asking a bundle for the insignia so we decided to do everything ourselves.  I saw a website that gave the locations of the insignia and numbers.  Had no idea that even existed but pretty cool. 

I'm still playing with the insignia and how to make it work.  I'm kinda leaning toward putting the "32" at an angle with the Aloha "A". 
Signa_003.jpg.fb46e9ed759e2061f7525f75dc4a7fa4.jpg

Fuck me some people don't get it. That sail will fail measurement. It's a boats identification for the benefit of the race team and other competitors, not a fucking cake decoration.

If you're not racing I don't understand why you'd bother sticking numbers on at all, if you are you have to do it right.

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Hard flat surface, hold sail flat using two sets of knees, start at a corner, applying with a little pressure to start lets you peel off if things don’t go well

Be careful with numbers that have a circle/triangle.. 4 6 8 9 0

Good luck

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If the weather is hot, cool the numbers down before applying. The adhesive is temperature sensitive, so cooling it enables you to lift off & reapply more easily if you make a mistake or get a crease.

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8 hours ago, Locus said:
16 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Zeros and eights are the hardest.

After a few years of doing this you will be a pro.

I find 2s and 5s the hardest

Try this

DSCN9790-bear.thumb.jpg.26c509cee1670ec1dbe419ec7c42f489.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One of the sailing coaches wives took on the task of putting our town symbol on the high school NJROTC's boats. They look great, very distinctive.

They were truly a fuckin' bitch to put on. The last ones went on much quicker and easier and smoother than the first. At this point, those pre-cut numbers and letters would be child's play. OTOH I am not going to do this for a number of years, by the time it comes to do again, we will have forgotten.

FB- Doug

 

.

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Haven't seen this mentioned, so I'd like to add this method:

Instead of pencil lines I use painter's tape to mark the positions as well as holding the numbers in place. On floppy numbers like 2 and 3 I use small strips of tape to fixate the center, top and bottom.

On larger numbers I only peel the back of a portion (like the base of the 2) and use a sharp Stanley cutter to cut the paper off. Because of the fixing tapes that part of the number basically wants to fall in the right place (gently guided and brushed down with the tool @Pointy End has  posted just above, starting at the cut).

 

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18 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

And you prolley invite goode criew to macke you looke faste.                                            :)

That’s “good looking” crew...women and men

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2 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

That’s “good looking” crew...women and men

6b440c43018728cb107717c35eca5a2a.jpg

Goode foire you, you halfe youre priorittiese strate!

YLM!                                          :)

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light pencil lines, or I've used blue painters tape to create index marks on the sail and numbers... 

Dont forget, one side should be a full # size above or below the other! I messed this up once and ya couldn't read the numbers in certain lighting conditions... ooops

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Light pencil lines for guides, pencil will fade in UV light over time.

PLEASE don't sand sail and I'm hoping that should have had Purple Sarcasm font applied. 

Generally it's Stbd side Numbers High as not to have them back to back and impossible to read (same applies to telltales)

As mentioned, do it according to class rules as it's a ball ache to remove well stuck Sail Numbers even relatively recently done ones. Nippers in sail lofts generally start with cutting numbers and god knows how many backwards 2,4,5 and 7s I've seen, nope Nipper, go back and do it again. Then go clean the machine pits.

As an anecdote and a story from around 2006, the newly (self) appointed President of 12 Metre Class in Newport 'found' that most of the boats had a slightly incorrect font used for the numbers in the 12 Class Logo and required all the boats to change them for the next regatta or risk being protested by the Committee...yeah, he really did warn that. I believe from memory it was a North font as opposed to the Class legal one.

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17 minutes ago, TANGO QUEBEC said:

Generally it's Stbd side Numbers High as not to have them back to back and impossible to read (same applies to telltales)

plusse oune!

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Of course I forgot something.

Personally, I don't want to touch the sticky side. Again, I use masking tape to make a makeshift handle: Cut 3 inches of tape, fold the first inch and stick it to the sticky side of the middle inch, then stick the remaining bit on the edge of the number, logo, whatever. Scale as needed.

Two of those, one on the plotted number or logo, and one on the backing paper can be helpful to peel really thin and sticky foil off the backing.

And finally, for jobs like these I like to use masking tape for "sensitive surfaces". It's not as sticky as the usual stuff, so it peels off easily and without residue or even unsticking the carefully applied number.

Tried and tested with sails, boats, bikes, 40 ton trucks and 5oz RC gilders. :)

 

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11 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Fuck me some people don't get it. That sail will fail measurement. It's a boats identification for the benefit of the race team and other competitors, not a fucking cake decoration.

If you're not racing I don't understand why you'd bother sticking numbers on at all, if you are you have to do it right.

Moreover it looks ridiculous! 

I would not want to be seen on that boat nor will anyone else with a sense of aesthetics. 

So, you will only get crew that have no sense of boats, you will lose, and you will look ridiculous while losing. 

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On 9/7/2020 at 12:19 PM, Meat Wad said:

 

Zeros and eights are the hardest.

 

17 hours ago, Locus said:

I find 2s and 5s the hardest

9 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Try this

DSCN9790-bear.thumb.jpg.26c509cee1670ec1dbe419ec7c42f489.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With #2, you line up the bottom. With #5, you line up the top. 0 and 8 are all curves, along with 3.

But, I did do it for 11 years so I got pretty good.

1979, I was 21 and had been doing this for a bit over 3 years and just under 4.

loft4.thumb.jpg.3914c873da8f1064c153f353d5d70b88.jpg

 

loft2.thumb.jpg.8faea9bf8cd060c93755ea146c352811.jpg

 

 

 

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I found the long horizontals on 2 and 5 hard to get staying flat and straight even when taped down. Most of my micro-wrinkles on on those. 

Luckily my current # is 7610 all pretty easy IMHO. It was my sons opti that had 324551. So three numbers that took a lot of time and being very careful.  

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Something I havent seen anyone mention - STARBOARD SIDE HIGH!!  No really....

I put more numbers and logos on sails in my time than I care to admit.  For me 0s were the hardest. For whatever reason 8s were easy and 0s sucked.

Do not cut the backing - fold over a corner where you plan to start.  Keep the sail flat and taught.  Use small push pins on a wooden floor (just not the dining room) if possible.

Do not draw pencil lines - they never come off and look dumb.  Not as dumb as crooked or poorly spaced numbers, but....

Do make sure the sail is clean and dry.  Then clean it again.  Nothing worse than grains of dirt or sand stuck under the numbers.

Do put them in the correct place.  Your boat is not bound to the World Sailing standard, but at least they have taken the time to write out the specs.  It starts on page 120 of the current rules and page 115 of the 2021-2024 rules - https://www.sailing.org/documents/racingrules/index.php  It details height and spacing requirements. Use them!

Do make sure you space them correctly.  The width of the number 1 (not counting the flag) is about the right spacing between digits, but be careful with numbers like 7 4 where it will look dumb spaced correctly because of the parallel angles on the 7 and 4.

 

MS

 

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I find rum helps...I gave a bottle to my local sailmaker and all the numbers went on perfectly.B)

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6 hours ago, Timo42 said:

I find rum helps...I gave a bottle to my local sailmaker and all the numbers went on perfectly.B)

Finally!  Some common sense advice!

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Starboard side high,  you say?  Huh.  Never knew that.  I used to call this one the Lazy Nine,  for obvious reasons.

Don't worry,  it's long-gone to the Mylar flake disease.  (sail was a light scrim and lasted 2 seasons even trying to only use it in the lighter stuff,  but: Hawaii)

We had a nice hardwood floor anyway,   but I have to admit we may have been drinking at the time.

Arizona Memorial.jpg

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The BEST way to apply numbers and insignias is to use a pin to score the backing paper across the middle of the digit.  make sure that it is all the way through the paper.  Then you can hold the number in place at one end and fold it back on the score line. The paper will lift away from the adhesive cloth, and you smooth it down from the middle out.  then do the other end the same way.  Folding a corner back and sticking the number down is for amatuers.  numbers with connected loops like 8s, 6s, 9, and 4s are the hardest.  If you let the insignia cloth lay down on the sail without pulling it will usually go down flat.  I have been using this method for over 40 years.  It is quick and painless. 

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ok so we have 0s 8s 2s 4s, 5's, 6's, 8s,9s are the hardest. 

Only thing we can agree on is the 1s are easy. (maybe 7s as well) 

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23 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

With #2, you line up the bottom. With #5, you line up the top. 0 and 8 are all curves, along with 3.

But, I did do it for 11 years so I got pretty good.

1979, I was 21 and had been doing this for a bit over 3 years and just under 4.

loft4.thumb.jpg.3914c873da8f1064c153f353d5d70b88.jpg

 

loft2.thumb.jpg.8faea9bf8cd060c93755ea146c352811.jpg

 

 

 

I loved designing/ learning how to make a sail, foot round, luff curve , broad seam , cloth selection and how different and important cloth was ( early 70’s)  .... Hated!!! Crawling around on the floor all day... hated hand work ... hated the sales part, telling/ sailing/selling some ham and egger the news sails would do the trick... learned a lot then moved on 

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I concur with the blue tape. You can also score the backer in a few strategic locations so it pulls off in sections. Just like a regular sticker.

The issue of bubbles is helped by using an old credit card as a squeegee to smooth it out as you go.

I have personally seen 1 Laser & 2 Opti’s rejected. The Opti guys who measure the sails think they are at the Olympics. It takes 3 times longer to measure an Opti vs any other dinghy sail. The sails are shite, which confirms that the boats are shite. I‘ve been coaching them for 10 years. I hate them more every season. 

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 All of these Numbers and Stickers are full of Glue and Plastics. A nice organic Stencil with Dye/Paint would fit the bill nicely. It's Lighter too!  But you can't buy used sails and change the #'s ....so I guess there will be an excuse that it is not practical or possible. 

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2 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

I concur with the blue tape. You can also score the backer in a few strategic locations so it pulls off in sections. Just like a regular sticker.

The issue of bubbles is helped by using an old credit card as a squeegee to smooth it out as you go.

I have personally seen 1 Laser & 2 Opti’s rejected. The Opti guys who measure the sails think they are at the Olympics. It takes 3 times longer to measure an Opti vs any other dinghy sail. The sails are shite, which confirms that the boats are shite. I‘ve been coaching them for 10 years. I hate them more every season. 

I turned up at my first oppie championships a very very long time ago and got chucked at measurement because the bellends at North had put the numbers on the wrong side high.

It was an eye opener for me in many ways.

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I don’t have a problem putting on the numbers, I’ve made and put this sticker on five different sails and getting it back to back exactly, tests my patience. 

DD584221-50EC-4591-8E51-A03A3B7EB986.jpeg

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53 minutes ago, madboutcats said:

I don’t have a problem putting on the numbers, I’ve made and put this sticker on five different sails and getting it back to back exactly, tests my patience. 

DD584221-50EC-4591-8E51-A03A3B7EB986.jpeg

I feel for your crew. That deck sweeper is fast, but it’s a motherfucker at times. We’ve got an older Taipan 5.7. Nice sticker. 

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On 9/8/2020 at 5:19 AM, Meat Wad said:

Lay the area to place the numbers flat. Usually they follow a seam or a batten that is horizontal.

Lay out the numbers and check to see if it looks right.

Sometimes a light pencil line is good (dacron sails) 

Peel a small section of the backing off (I used to start at the top) and hold it off the sail as you place the number in it place and then lay it down. Slowly from underneath start peeling the backing down while you use your fingers to go back and forth making sure the number is applying to the sail without any bubbles or creases.

Zeros and eights are the hardest.

After a few years of doing this you will be a pro.

Use a credit card for a bubble free experience, like say, you might use for expensive white powders that are allegedly inhaled.  You could use the same one, but might make it hard to get your sail through customs at a later stage.

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4 hours ago, madboutcats said:

I don’t have a problem putting on the numbers, I’ve made and put this sticker on five different sails and getting it back to back exactly, tests my patience. 

DD584221-50EC-4591-8E51-A03A3B7EB986.jpeg

Looking at it as a technical challenge, that is quite an accomplishment.

Not so sure about why you want to make that statement to the world with your boat

- DSK

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If you do use pencil lines for alignment they can be removed easily with a white rubber latex free Hi-Polymer eraser.  No other eraser seems to work as well and not leave a mess.  I buy them from Staples.  The three and the two will be relatively easy.  That red Aloha insignia will be difficult to get on without getting a small wrinkle somewhere.

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12 hours ago, Pollination said:

 All of these Numbers and Stickers are full of Glue and Plastics. A nice organic Stencil with Dye/Paint would fit the bill nicely. It's Lighter too!  But you can't buy used sails and change the #'s ....so I guess there will be an excuse that it is not practical or possible. 

On old style 1/2 oz kites we used magic markers.
One thing I noticed on new kites is they only put numbers on one side, so with Sym kites you really need to pay attention to the Port/starboard  and pack it properly.

8 hours ago, Spoonie said:

Use a credit card for a bubble free experience, like say, you might use for expensive white powders that are allegedly inhaled.  You could use the same one, but might make it hard to get your sail through customs at a later stage.

Never had issues needing a flat edge to get bubbles out.
Once you get the number lined up and partially stuck down. you just work it along not pulling the backing off to far. fingers back and forth give you the feel and help with the curve of the numbers.
Doing it for 11 years makes it seem pretty mindless work. I remember when Kevin Miller of North Sails worked for us when he was just a weee teen. Everybody starts somewhere.

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personally, get a steam iron, hottest setting possible (cotton) and really press hard..

 

Quote

Use a carpenters square to get the alignment perpendicular to the leach.

 

uh, don't you mean the  luff?   haven't seen to many numbers / logos slanted downwards..

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33 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

personally, get a steam iron, hottest setting possible (cotton) and really press hard..

uh, don't you mean the  luff?   haven't seen to many numbers / logos slanted downwards..

LUFFE / LEACHE, tomattoe/ tomahttoe                   :)

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At the loft I worked at, we would line the numbers up along a long ruler. And yes, depending on class rules the numbers may need to be perpendicular to the luff OR leech. For really big or complicated logos, we would lightly tack the logo on some mylar and use it as a transfer sheet (peel all the backing and lay it down). Additionally, if you're trying to remove numbers, Quantum recommends using naptha. You need a LOT of ventilation but it does work.

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2 hours ago, cutty4sark said:

At the loft I worked at, we would line the numbers up along a long ruler. And yes, depending on class rules the numbers may need to be perpendicular to the luff OR leech. For really big or complicated logos, we would lightly tack the logo on some mylar and use it as a transfer sheet (peel all the backing and lay it down). Additionally, if you're trying to remove numbers, Quantum recommends using naptha. You need a LOT of ventilation but it does work.

What I liked to do was use the lines of the 4 x 8 plywood sheets that made up our loft floor.  Line up the head and tack of a mainsail on the same seam and you have lines perpendicular to the luff.  Line up a broadseam on a dacron main and you have perpendicular to the leech.

On jibs and genoas, I would pin the head in place, measure forward the J dimension from that pin, pull the luff snug, and pin the tack in place.  The lines of the floor would be at the correct angle (parallel to the water - usually approx a 72 degree angle).

And then I didnt need no stinking lines drawn on the sail....

MS

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16 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Looking at it as a technical challenge, that is quite an accomplishment.

Not so sure about why you want to make that statement to the world with your boat

- DSK

My occupation is a sheep pregnancy scanner so I’m not coy about sheep having a root. 
 

I’ve had a few Taipan 5.7’s, this main sail sits about the same distance off the deck as the Taipan but no boom

20 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

I feel for your crew. That deck sweeper is fast, but it’s a motherfucker at times. We’ve got an older Taipan 5.7. Nice sticker. 

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6 hours ago, madboutcats said:
23 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

... Not so sure about why you want to make that statement to the world with your boat

 

My occupation is a sheep pregnancy scanner so I’m not coy about sheep having a root. 

That explains it. But couldn't you make it look like the sheep are enjoying it?

FB- Doug

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15 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

That explains it. But couldn't you make it look like the sheep are enjoying it?

FB- Doug

It’s been a very successful and recognisable logo for my business, I’ll accept your an expert on sailing and maybe you’ll accept the fact the business I’ve built has survived for a long time with this logo.

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8 hours ago, madboutcats said:
On 9/11/2020 at 7:51 AM, Steam Flyer said:

That explains it. But couldn't you make it look like the sheep are enjoying it?

 

It’s been a very successful and recognisable logo for my business, I’ll accept your an expert on sailing and maybe you’ll accept the fact the business I’ve built has survived for a long time with this logo.

It's recognizable all right, gets the point across clearly! I wish you continued success.

Cats are a lot of fun, I cross over a fair amount but not to stay and not an expert.

FB- Doug

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