Admiral Hornblower 131 #1 Posted September 10 Can the same techniques that are used on the laser downwind ( s-turning) be also used on the force 5? I have heard that the Force 5 is more prone to death rolling than the laser... I will be sailing a Force 5 this weekend at our club's annual regatta, and the wind is supposed to be 8-10 gusting 20... I feel a little nervous about s- turning and extreme rolling when the wind is that gusty.. Thoughts? simply put, I just would like to know what the F5 champion level downwind techniques are. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rasputin22 2,427 #2 Posted September 10 Having sailed both boats I would agree that the Force 5 can be a bit squirrely compared to the Laser downwind. I would attribute this to the chine aft on the Force 5 which can alternately shed water for less drag but then when one rolls and the other side of the chine gets immersed it again and slews the boat slightly and can initiate the oscillations that can turn into a Death Roll. Similar to what can happen with powerboats when they start 'chine walking'. Best you can do is be aware of this and learn to anticipate to correct and keep both chines working cleanly. More sail and a more dynamic bottom shape make the Force 5 lots faster downwind. Need lots of vang too. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steam Flyer 4,114 #3 Posted September 10 41 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said: Having sailed both boats I would agree that the Force 5 can be a bit squirrely compared to the Laser downwind. I would attribute this to the chine aft on the Force 5 which can alternately shed water for less drag but then when one rolls and the other side of the chine gets immersed it again and slews the boat slightly and can initiate the oscillations that can turn into a Death Roll. Similar to what can happen with powerboats when they start 'chine walking'. Best you can do is be aware of this and learn to anticipate to correct and keep both chines working cleanly. More sail and a more dynamic bottom shape make the Force 5 lots faster downwind. Need lots of vang too. Yep. Vang On! Nice thing about the F5 is that just before the windward mark, you can drop the traveler a little, pull the sheet a bit tighter, set the vang, then re-trim the main as normal and you're ready for take-off. If it gets sporty: weight aft, pull sheet. Put some board down too. DO NOT try and steer out of it. The rudder is bigger and deeper than the Laser rudder and will amplify the death roll. Only put the helm to lee... a little... as the boom is coming back down where it should be. IF you're going to crash, go ahead and gybe early. Nice thing about the main all in the middle, you can grab the tackle and pull.... no getting caught under the transom corner. Just like the Laser, the guys who can skate closest to the edge of a wipe out are the fastest. FB- Doug 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JBOATTROUBLEMAKER 38 #4 Posted September 10 4 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said: I will be sailing a Force 5 this weekend at our club's annual regatta Geez, I thought you bought another boat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Admiral Hornblower 131 #5 Posted September 10 43 minutes ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said: Geez, I thought you bought another boat. I did! But some said I could sail one of their Force 5s for our annual regatta, so, since there was going to be such a good fleet, I accepted his offer. I'm now trying sap as much info I can about the Force 5 before this weekend! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wavedancer II 102 #6 Posted September 11 S-curving isn't really used by Laser sailors to prevent capsizes. It is used to go fast, especially in waves. Sailing by the lee ('4th dimension') is the way to go in a Laser downwind if your primary goal is to stay right side up. No idea about the Force 5 though... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 1,287 #7 Posted September 11 1 hour ago, Admiral Hornblower said: I did! But some said I could sail one of their Force 5s for our annual regatta, so, since there was going to be such a good fleet, I accepted his offer. I'm now trying sap as much info I can about the Force 5 before this weekend! Rig up beside the fastest guy - he will be happy to answer questions. Get a decent start and stick with the fleet. You will be able to observe and learn quickly what is right and wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dex Sawash 398 #8 Posted September 11 F5 in breeze... By the lee is fast. S turn to ease gybe hit when sail fills. Don't cleat sail in tacks or gybes. Be sure to pull the board all the way back out bottom when you capsize. The vang will pin against board when you try to right the boat and keep sail full of water. Vang tension impedes mast rotation due to cleats on deck (forces the mast aft in step). Can break gooseneck pin when you bear away at weather mark with vang tight. If boat has laser style vang mod with cleat on mast, you're OK. Don't get distracted by the traveller. Upwind in chop, keep the bow light. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dex Sawash 398 #9 Posted September 15 Deathroll debrief? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grestone 22 #10 Posted September 16 Yeah, I'd love to hear an update on how your weekend fared too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Admiral Hornblower 131 #11 Posted September 16 Thanks! I am quite pleased with my results this weekend, considering this is my first regatta, and that there were some quite good sailors that I was up against. One of them has won Cleveland Race Week three times! Not surprisingly he came 1st, winning 3 out of 4 races on Saturday. Sadly, racing on Sunday had to be canceled do to very heavy rain. The wind was great though! 18 kts + 3ft waves. The whole Force 5 fleet had turned out since the weather looked like it would be possible to run a couple races, but, the rain came and scared everybody back to the club. Wet to the skin and looking like drowned rats More pics here https://www.amorisenyfineart.com/Sailing/Sam-Myers-Memorial-Regatta-September-12-13-2020/n-RZ6mxq/ Any way, I ended up with a 5th, 7th, 5th and 3rd. I am still kicking myself about that 3rd, it was soooo close to being a second, I had lead him for the entire race with him hot on my heels, but a bad tack right at the finish line caused him to slip past and take second from out of my grasp. Grrrrr...at least he only crossed a couple feet in front though... The 7th place was due to overstanding the windward mark by like 100 feet( so concentrated on going upwind on port I wasn't watching were I was going) and hitting the leeward mark. In one of the 5th places I was over the line early. But managed to to overtake half the fleet downwind. A fun regatta with good wind and beautiful weather( on Saturday!) And the first time I have ever sailed in a one-design fleet! Much more fun than PY racing. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ISA 24 #12 Posted September 18 On 9/10/2020 at 1:24 PM, Admiral Hornblower said: Can the same techniques that are used on the laser downwind ( s-turning) be also used on the force 5? I have heard that the Force 5 is more prone to death rolling than the laser... I will be sailing a Force 5 this weekend at our club's annual regatta, and the wind is supposed to be 8-10 gusting 20... I feel a little nervous about s- turning and extreme rolling when the wind is that gusty.. Thoughts? simply put, I just would like to know what the F5 champion level downwind techniques are. This is probably the most important video. To avoid the death rolling issue, there are basically two "types".. 1. By the Lee Deathroll - Typically due to the body not being enough to leeward. Even when under sheeted, a solid amount of body weight over the leeward side will prevent the death roll if it all starts by the lee. 2. Broad Reach Deathroll - Typically this occurs when transitioning from by the lee to a broad reach but not adjusting sheet tension sufficiently. This creates a great deal of lee helm when you arrive at the broad reach and spins the boat into a death roll as it starts turning. If you combine this with too much body weight to windward it will exacerbate. So by the lee, practice a strong by the lee body position which will be identical to your "saving the deathroll" position. On broad reach, make sure the helm is balanced with sufficient sheet tension to keep the boat going straight with body aft. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Admiral Hornblower 131 #13 Posted September 18 3 hours ago, ISA said: This is probably the most important video. To avoid the death rolling issue, there are basically two "types".. 1. By the Lee Deathroll - Typically due to the body not being enough to leeward. Even when under sheeted, a solid amount of body weight over the leeward side will prevent the death roll if it all starts by the lee. 2. Broad Reach Deathroll - Typically this occurs when transitioning from by the lee to a broad reach but not adjusting sheet tension sufficiently. This creates a great deal of lee helm when you arrive at the broad reach and spins the boat into a death roll as it starts turning. If you combine this with too much body weight to windward it will exacerbate. So by the lee, practice a strong by the lee body position which will be identical to your "saving the deathroll" position. On broad reach, make sure the helm is balanced with sufficient sheet tension to keep the boat going straight with body aft. thanks! Very helpful. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
