Tomfl

Boat 4 sale; not mine

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This came up in my facebook feet.

"Buy an ultime trimaran Gitana 11 ! We put up for sale this legendary trimaran, VPLP built, on the basis of the Belgacom of 2004. Initially 60 feet long (ORMA class), it was extended to 77 feet in 2009, making it into the Ultimate category. Capsized in September 2019, the trimaran is structurally unscathed and will constitute a magnificent base for a race lover. As it stands, the hull platform with an adapted carbon mast and her boom, she is sold for €180,000 ex-Tax. All the other items need to be gathered and purchased: sails, nets, rigging etc..all can be supply by our team and even prepared. The total budget for a complete replacement as new is in the range of 580 K€ ex VAT

https://www.facebook.com/commerce/listing/748249346027625/?media_id=1&ref=share_attachment

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54 minutes ago, JimBowie said:

OMFG BUY AN AD AND SHOW US YOUR OWN TITS BLUBBERBOY!

 

Reading comprehension is your friend.  It is obvious to everyone but you I have no connection to this boat or it's owners.  Not to mention they are probably not aiming at the SA readers as a potential place to look for buyers.

What concerns me most about your insulting post is your seemingly ignorance of how significant a boat Gitana 11 is.  When a world class multihull capable of breaking records left and right it is news.

I do have one other concern, your ignorance of what posting in all caps means.

 

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One of my favorite tris in her last configuration, love the lines.

image.png.25937ac2820be7acf848624b708d8808.png

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It's like a giant Diam 24...

Or I guess a Diam is just a tiny Gitana...

In other words, VPLP definitely has a style. 

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6 hours ago, Tomfl said:

Reading comprehension is your friend.  It is obvious to everyone but you I have no connection to this boat or it's owners.  Not to mention they are probably not aiming at the SA readers as a potential place to look for buyers.

What concerns me most about your insulting post is your seemingly ignorance of how significant a boat Gitana 11 is.  When a world class multihull capable of breaking records left and right it is news.

I do have one other concern, your ignorance of what posting in all caps means.

Buy an ad and show tits comments are, in my mind, equivalent to someone saying God bless you after you sneeze. And your outburst is like atheist scolding someone that dared to bring god into discussion. That is how I read your post and Jim Bowie's reply to it.

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2 hours ago, Upp3 said:

Buy an ad and show tits comments are, in my mind, equivalent to someone saying God bless you after you sneeze. And your outburst is like atheist scolding someone that dared to bring god into discussion. That is how I read your post and Jim Bowie's reply to it.

Whether you mean to give offence, or not, is one way of looking at language.

Another way to look at it is do some take offence or not.

I suspect that Gesundheit (wishing you good health) or god bless you are likely acceptable under both approaches.

Asking for images of some ones breasts may not be offensive to many who are asking but it does seem likely to offend some who are being asked and others who are merely observing.

How you proceed depends on how you balance what feels right for you versus whether you care about the impact of your actions on others.  

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13 hours ago, Tomfl said:

This came up in my facebook feet.

"Buy an ultime trimaran Gitana 11 ! We put up for sale this legendary trimaran, VPLP built, on the basis of the Belgacom of 2004. Initially 60 feet long (ORMA class), it was extended to 77 feet in 2009, making it into the Ultimate category. Capsized in September 2019, the trimaran is structurally unscathed and will constitute a magnificent base for a race lover. As it stands, the hull platform with an adapted carbon mast and her boom, she is sold for €180,000 ex-Tax. All the other items need to be gathered and purchased: sails, nets, rigging etc..all can be supply by our team and even prepared. The total budget for a complete replacement as new is in the range of 580 K€ ex VAT

https://www.facebook.com/commerce/listing/748249346027625/?media_id=1&ref=share_attachment

drool worthy boat..... I just can't even comprehend what it would cost to campaign something like this. It seems like you'd be around the cost of the boat per year at a minimum to really race something like this.

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10 hours ago, Upp3 said:

Buy an ad and show tits comments are, in my mind, equivalent to someone saying God bless you after you sneeze. And your outburst is like atheist scolding someone that dared to bring god into discussion. That is how I read your post and Jim Bowie's reply to it.

That was simply stock SA reply to what is blatantly an advert, even an inadvertent one (sic, that's kinda funny.  Read that twice).  Anyway blubber, no offense meant and none taken, just a good old ribbin on the nubbin.

Have great weekend everyone

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19 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

The tits thing is getting old.

JimBowie’s been on my ignore list awhile...

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20 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

The tits thing is getting old.

not , nor are Fridays

even Anarchy has traditions <_<

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3 hours ago, Raz'r said:

JimBowie’s been on my ignore list awhile...

Thanks for the advice, I will follow your good example.

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22 hours ago, KC375 said:

Whether you mean to give offence, or not, is one way of looking at language.

Another way to look at it is do some take offence or not.

I suspect that Gesundheit (wishing you good health) or god bless you are likely acceptable under both approaches.

Asking for images of some ones breasts may not be offensive to many who are asking but it does seem likely to offend some who are being asked and others who are merely observing.

How you proceed depends on how you balance what feels right for you versus whether you care about the impact of your actions on others.  

And just where do you think you’re going, with your fancy schmancy common sense, respect and politeness?

B)

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I gotta agree that the casual misogyny is a tired and unfunny joke, tradition here or not. 
 

Moving on, though, I’d love to see more activity in the fast multi scene. The MOD’s are as active as they’ve ever been with super close racing. We are getting Shockwave (ex-Paradox) ready for the Middle Sea Race right now. Ultim Emotion is a great boat that is out there racing. The new Multi 50’s are much more exciting than the older generation and are showing up for races. Why boats like the tri above and Tritium languish is beyond me. Why anyone would campaign a slow mono...or even a slow cat...? Life’s too short to sail a slow boat. 

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58 minutes ago, Black Sox said:

And just where do you think you’re going, with your fancy schmancy common sense, respect and politeness?

B)

I’ve been working on my personal evolution. Still a work in progress.

theory-evolution-man-theory-evolution-ma

A journey pushed along by one of my first rugby coaches who emphasised, if the receiver dropped the ball the passer screwed up.

When I combined that with learning that non-native English speakers communicate better in English than native English speakers it shifted my perspective.

I now (try) to think of communication  as a tool whose effectiveness is measured by the audience. How cleaver or erudite I think my self matters not at all.  

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2 hours ago, KC375 said:

I’ve been working on my personal evolution. Still a work in progress.

theory-evolution-man-theory-evolution-ma

A journey pushed along by one of my first rugby coaches who emphasised, if the receiver dropped the ball the passer screwed up.

When I combined that with learning that non-native English speakers communicate better in English than native English speakers it shifted my perspective.

I now (try) to think of communication  as a tool whose effectiveness is measured by the audience. How cleaver or erudite I think my self matters not at all.  

Assuming personal responsibility for delivery and receipt of the message. I like it.

While I do admire the goal and will strive to emulate it to the best of my limited ability, you do know that it’ll never catch on in the wider populace, don’t you?

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5 hours ago, soma said:

I gotta agree that the casual misogyny is a tired and unfunny joke, tradition here or not. 
 

Moving on, though, I’d love to see more activity in the fast multi scene. The MOD’s are as active as they’ve ever been with super close racing. We are getting Shockwave (ex-Paradox) ready for the Middle Sea Race right now. Ultim Emotion is a great boat that is out there racing. The new Multi 50’s are much more exciting than the older generation and are showing up for races. Why boats like the tri above and Tritium languish is beyond me. Why anyone would campaign a slow mono...or even a slow cat...? Life’s too short to sail a slow boat. 

both on my dream-list...

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9 hours ago, Black Sox said:

Assuming personal responsibility for delivery and receipt of the message. I like it.

While I do admire the goal and will strive to emulate it to the best of my limited ability, you do know that it’ll never catch on in the wider populace, don’t you?

I try not to judge the world too harshly...going through life disappointed is, well, disappointing...

In the often misquoted words of someone who did make a difference.

"As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him… We need not wait to see what others do.”

and that is enough philosophising for one night, I'm off to commune with a good single malt.

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13 hours ago, soma said:

Why anyone would campaign a slow mono...or even a slow cat...? Life’s too short to sail a slow boat. 

Amen!

Can't wait to start my new journey with a miniature version of all of y'all's fancy yachts (Diam 24)

I expect for these super quick boats to start coming down in size, as we see in the Mod 50 class (which is still too large IMO for most budgets...)

Otherwise as it's recently been the case, you only get 3 or 4 of these beasts racing... Then economic conditions change... And all of them go up for sale because the budgets are too large!

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finally the pocket cruiser I've been looking for.

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Three general racing types:

1. One design or close (class 40, multi 50). The best resale. Think J-boats, Lasers, Figaros.

2. Cruiser-racer PHRF racers. Dual use makes resale okay due to cruisability.

3. Development, “no holds barred” racing. America’s cup, etc. The highest outlay for the least resale. If you’re not competitive anymore against other cutting edge boats utility drops to zero, or negative, considering the effort and costs. 

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6 hours ago, EarthBM said:

Three general racing types:

1. One design or close (class 40, multi 50). The best resale. Think J-boats, Lasers, Figaros.

2. Cruiser-racer PHRF racers. Dual use makes resale okay due to cruisability.

3. Development, “no holds barred” racing. America’s cup, etc. The highest outlay for the least resale. If you’re not competitive anymore against other cutting edge boats utility drops to zero, or negative, considering the effort and costs. 

Which is why I’d argue the fast 50’-80’ multihull scene is great. You can buy an old ORMA or MOD and have fantastic boat on boat action.
 

The Ultimes are tough...they get obsolete fast. 

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3 hours ago, soma said:

Which is why I’d argue the fast 50’-80’ multihull scene is great. You can buy an old ORMA or MOD and have fantastic boat on boat action.
 

The Ultimes are tough...they get obsolete fast. 

But you won’t... not boat-on-boat.  New ones will kills the old ones. If absolute SOG per $ we’re the target I agree with you. But the target is SOG relative to others.
 

The only honest race is fixed $ budget. Here’s $1m, first around the globe in one piece wins. And even there the resale value needs to be managed. A $1m budget where you’re okay to lose it all is more than $1m budget where you think you can sell what’s left for $500k.

 

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3 hours ago, EarthBM said:

But you won’t... not boat-on-boat.  New ones will kills the old ones. If absolute SOG per $ we’re the target I agree with you. But the target is SOG relative to others.
 

The only honest race is fixed $ budget. Here’s $1m, first around the globe in one piece wins. And even there the resale value needs to be managed. A $1m budget where you’re okay to lose it all is more than $1m budget where you think you can sell what’s left for $500k.

 

I have no idea how you can make that argument. The MODs are 10 years old(?), they’re still the fastest boats on the water, and racing is as close as can be. Mighty Merloe is a 12-yr old ORMA and races heads up with the MODs. Ultim Emotion nearly rates even with the MODs and she’s even older. No one has built a new boat in this segment for ages. I’ll admit that resuscitating Tritium or the one above won’t be cheap, arguably more expensive than buying turn key, but racing on these boats is ridiculously close a decade later. 
 

The cost to campaign one of these tris is far cheaper than a TP or a Pac 52. And double the speed.  It’s a drop in the bucket compared to a mini maxi. One event on a J or mini maxi likely exceeds the annual operating cost on a MOD with a full schedule. 
 

In fact, I’d argue the closeness in racing is a disincentive if anything. The crews are skying or mousing out the unused halyards to reduce windage  They're sleeping on deck on the windward floats and shitting in buckets. Everything they can think of to gain a boat length they are doing. That’s kinda awesome...but it’s also kinda lame. Back in the cheap seats on Shockwave we still sleep down below, have aircon, and a toilet. 
 

I get the feeling you don’t really have any exposure to this scene. 

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Mighty Merloe beating MOD70s is an interesting subject. I suspect that it’s down to the crew and local knowledge, but would love to hear more. Did it sell?

Are there other races where MOD70s, ORMA 60s and Ultimes race together?

I guess it would be informative to ask Tritium’s current owner why he’s selling and wants to do the next Transpac in a sled.

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23 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Mighty Merloe beating MOD70s is an interesting subject. I suspect that it’s down to the crew and local knowledge, but would love to hear more. Did it sell?

I don’t think it sold. I also think they were closer than you’d expect...it wasn’t just local knowledge. Mm was the fastest ORMA from what I understand. 

Quote

Are there other races where MOD70s, ORMA 60s and Ultimes race together?

Lots. C600, Transpac, Middle Sea, Fastnet, Cabo, Rolex Transatlantic, etc etc. Depends on the year and who comes out to play, but the MODs are more active than they’ve ever been. 

Quote

I guess it would be informative to ask Tritium’s current owner why he’s selling and wants to do the next Transpac in a sled.

He overreached with the tri. He got it for cheap from Artemis after the SF Cup. It needed/needs work to get caught up. Ryan Breymeier did a lot to get it in sailing condition, but it still needs six digits spent on her. He also had a SC70 and a powerboat, as well, so his toy stable was getting full. Nowadays, his big restaurant has been closed for something like 200 days this calendar year as a result of Covid and riots. I’m sure he’s feeling some financial sting and would love to sell the tri now. 

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6 hours ago, soma said:

The cost to campaign one of these tris is far cheaper than a TP or a Pac 52. And double the speed.  It’s a drop in the bucket compared to a mini maxi. One event on a J or mini maxi likely exceeds the annual operating cost on a MOD with a full schedule. 

Absolutely agree, $/kts there is nothing cheaper than a good multi (hell, even a Hobie 16!).

However, one point that defintely makes me very sad, is the (lack of) competition in this space. This is why we need more affordable multis. After all, the TP52, J's, and all other mini maxis were built because of the amount of competition that they projected to receive. Perhaps that's why it may also be more fun to race to Hawaii on a slower, more expensive boat... At least you are competing with at least 10 boats (and technically, competing against all mono's on handicap).

Once we can get... hell let's start low... 5 multi's on a good ol' weekend race then we can start to think about larger and larger budget programs. Problem is most multi sailors mentality is who can cross the line first (line honors), as opposed to thinking of a fun handicap system that encourages participation instead of money (the Aussies had a good start down under...). 

Shrug... I wish I was a millionaire already so I could play with the big boys.

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7 hours ago, soma said:

Lots. C600, Transpac, Middle Sea, Fastnet, Cabo, Rolex Transatlantic, etc etc. Depends on the year and who comes out to play, but the MODs are more active than they’ve ever been. 

Well, yes apart from the N2E and Transpac with Mighty Merloe, are there others? Fastnet and C600 had the same 2-3 MOD 70s fighting it out among  themselves but no one else close on elapsed.

Ultimes were built for trans-oceanic races. Were they ever in a race with MOD70s or ORMAs (not a rhetorical question, I really want to know)? Think their biggest race was 2018 RdR, where 2 finished close, 2 finished weeks apart, and 2 "retired". 

There is probably a way to put together an exciting race circuit with assorted one-time 'round the world record beaters, just doesn't look like anyone figured that out yet.

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On 9/14/2020 at 8:23 PM, soma said:

The cost to campaign one of these tris is far cheaper than a TP or a Pac 52. And double the speed.  It’s a drop in the bucket compared to a mini maxi. One event on a J or mini maxi likely exceeds the annual operating cost on a MOD with a full schedule. 

I'm a mug punter, but interested to know why TP or Pac 52 are more expensive. Sorry, I'm sure you are busy as fookery It's just nice to pick the brain of someone that might have experience and know.. stuff. Cheers. 

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Purchase price is 1:1 for a used TP vs a MOD. https://www.theyachtmarket.com/en/boat-for-sale/1808159/

You’ll need almost 2x the crew for a TP (10-12 guys vs 6). I’d expect the relative per person crew wages are higher on a TP, so 2x total crew cost per day. 

Distance races take twice as long, so an event like the TP will cost 4x for crew. 

Crew costs also include flights, hotel, cars, meals, housing, etc, so it’s more than just the daily wages that end up 4x, it’s all of it  

You’ll need to deliver a TP via containership/freighter on big trips. MODs regularly sail long distances, quickly, with very few delivery crew. You don’t often see TPs wander the globe in search of competition. The Cali fleet stays in Cali, the Great Lakes fleet stays there, the Med fleet stays there. 

Sails on MODs last 3-4 years, maybe 2 years on a TP. The sails obviously cost more on a MOD, but annual sail budget is likely 1:1. I always liked the story (anecdote) that Bad Pac (sp?) took 8xA2’s on the TP, vacuum bagged, to they could use them as a consumable  Sound logic, and they won, but that gets expensive. 

Running rigging, dockage, and haul out will cost a lot more annually on a MOD, but that pales in comparison to crew costs. 

So long story short, a TP sitting in its cradle in San Diego or Palma doesn’t cost much to own, but once you start sailing a MOD costs a lot less.

 

3D10834D-CC42-41D5-9E7E-E0BCBACFDA8B.jpeg

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6 hours ago, soma said:

Sails on MODs last 3-4 years, maybe 2 years on a TP.

Why do you think that is?

because you can push them more on a mono, given no risk of capsize?

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14 hours ago, soma said:

Distance races take twice as long, so an event like the TP will cost 4x for crew. 

Cheers for the detailed reply soma, very much appreciated. This was one aspect didn't even consider. 

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