tumbleweed314

Construction of a Pogo 50

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4 hours ago, Chimp too said:

There is so much more to it than the cost of the resin. There is percentage resin content, laminate schedule and much more. Also the weight implications of gel coat and a resin rich unconsolidated outer layer, along with the potential extra tooling cost (can’t fair a gel coat boat like you can a painted one), and much more.

it has been generally accepted that the break point in size where epoxy becomes financially advantageous is coming down. It has been well below 50 feet for a good time now. And that ignores the structural and weight benefits. Bond to the gel skin is also a big risk and void content there as well as controlling cure staging increases risk and reduces lifespan of poly/vinylester. 
Name another 50foot one off or small series build performance boat built with these materials in the last 20 years. I can’t think of one. There is a reason for that. Cost isn’t it.

Looks like you are zeroing in on build tech, which I’d argue ^^^^ (post 163) has for now, at least, scrambled rules of thumb concerning material tech.  Proof will be coming in a few decades, given similar upkeep- throw away green boats might be coming to get us?  Might be?  Planned obsolescence?  It’ll never catch on. ;)  
 

as far as performance boats, it might help to consider that in the piano world, say  a 9’ concert instrument, is considered ready for replacement or rebuild in 5 years.  

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8 hours ago, Amati said:

Looks like you are zeroing in on build tech, which I’d argue ^^^^ (post 163) has for now, at least, scrambled rules of thumb concerning material tech.  Proof will be coming in a few decades, given similar upkeep- throw away green boats might be coming to get us?  Might be?  Planned obsolescence?  It’ll never catch on. ;)  
 

as far as performance boats, it might help to consider that in the piano world, say  a 9’ concert instrument, is considered ready for replacement or rebuild in 5 years.  

What does a rebuild entail? Change the oil, check the caster pressure, clean the keyboard. There's more?

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3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

What does a rebuild entail? Change the oil, check the caster pressure, clean the keyboard. There's more?

Bent and squeaky sustain pedal, bent trap work rods, cracked keys, stripped up stop rail screws, broken hammer shafts, loose bass string windings, fire ax damage (that’s a good story, and involves the King of Thailand), moving damage (dropped again), split hammers, broken strings, bridge delamination, moving damage (not from dropping, but from, for example, being left in the rain, or left in sub zero weather in a truck for 48 hours), bad critic reviews, moving damage, somebody kicked the lyre and it fell off (again),  when the lid fell (again), it cracked the plate, and there was this buzzing sound in low humidity, somebody lost the conch again (inside joke there), the marble that the conductors 3rd trophy wife’s 2nd kid dumped in the piano is stuck in between the plate and soundboard somewhere and is rattling on the opening chords to the Grieg, and nobody can find it, the factory wants the piano back, and nobody knows why, one of the artists claim the piano is haunted, somebody juiced the hammers too much, the hammers are too dull, the rack got warped, or the piano is just worn out, and we’ve lost the the crown, and there’s not enough power to cut through the orchestra.  That, or Kieth J. played it, and said it sucked.  Voicing problems, or it’s not a Steinway.  Left out a jumpy pin block.  Or a mystery action regulation for a certain artist, and no one can figure out how to undo it.

In other words, the usual stuff....
 

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5 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

Doctor, will I be able to play the piano after the operation?

Maybe....but will it make the right noises?  

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For some reason Amati’s rant about piano tuning made me think of this show. I’m enjoying the materials discussion you guys are having. 

Good luck w the boat.

 

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Miffy said:

Epoxy makes more sense in custom race boat or small sportboat where the actual vs. design loads are closer with minimal margin and the primary focus is weight. Like I said above - the choice between epoxy vs vinylester has more to do with your fiber and core material & exterior finish than epoxy vs vinyl. They are more sensitive to moisture and temperature variation during mixing and layup. If your program specifies foam & paper core + carbon fiber & you're okay with a paint finish? Then sure, go epoxy. But if you're looking to build no fuss minimal maintenance boats where the owner can race/sail it to the tropics, leave it in the sun and maybe return home for a reason and not waste time dealing it and would rather spend money on living & not on marginal returns? Vinyl is perfectly fine.

Vinylester has far superior corrosion resistance, temperature resistance, and elongation (toughness) - you want high durability sitting in the tropics with gelcoat exterior? Vinylester. 

Don't forget for supply chain logistics purposes, epoxy has virtually indefinite shelf life. Vinyl needs to be used up in a quarter... so when some builders opt to only build in epoxy, it is because it keeps their inventory easier to manage. If I provide a vinylester/poly option, it means I have a steady business. 

Thanks Miffy,

That was very interesting.  

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13 hours ago, Amati said:

Bent and squeaky sustain pedal, bent trap work rods, cracked keys, stripped up stop rail screws, broken hammer shafts, loose bass string windings, fire ax damage (that’s a good story, and involves the King of Thailand), moving damage (dropped again), split hammers, broken strings, bridge delamination, moving damage (not from dropping, but from, for example, being left in the rain, or left in sub zero weather in a truck for 48 hours), bad critic reviews, moving damage, somebody kicked the lyre and it fell off (again),  when the lid fell (again), it cracked the plate, and there was this buzzing sound in low humidity, somebody lost the conch again (inside joke there), the marble that the conductors 3rd trophy wife’s 2nd kid dumped in the piano is stuck in between the plate and soundboard somewhere and is rattling on the opening chords to the Grieg, and nobody can find it, the factory wants the piano back, and nobody knows why, one of the artists claim the piano is haunted, somebody juiced the hammers too much, the hammers are too dull, the rack got warped, or the piano is just worn out, and we’ve lost the the crown, and there’s not enough power to cut through the orchestra.  That, or Kieth J. played it, and said it sucked.  Voicing problems, or it’s not a Steinway.  Left out a jumpy pin block.  Or a mystery action regulation for a certain artist, and no one can figure out how to undo it.

In other words, the usual stuff....
 

Clearly, piano makers could learn from naval architects: it’s time to switch from wood to composites!

https://www.worldpianonews.com/new-product/art-case/schimmel-k208-pegasus-piano-purchased-by-atlantis-sanya/

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So, to recap: 

I should have built a 3 masted, carbon boat, slathered in epoxy with a planned obsolescence piano onboard, outfitted with single panel magic sails.  

Cool. Cool. Cool.  Got it now. I'll go tell Pogo. 

 

 

 

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In other news, been a pretty quiet week on build updates. Lots of paperwork this week - hull id numbers, USCG documentation, sail numbers, and lining up measurement at the moment of delivery to avoid multiple ins-and-outs to get everything laserbeamed.  I guess at some point I should think about taxes and getting it officially flagged and all that , but so far, it seems like "sail it to the US (or maybe USVI?),  pay excise tax" is just about the extend of the complexity.  Of course, I could be totally wrong.

Meanwhile, I've been sewing a boom tent, and sorting out tool sets for minimal weight to bring with me when I hop the pond to take delivery.  Not too exciting, but keeps me busy while I wait on lockdown. 

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Very exciting, both the news and the fact that you haven't abandoned this thread due to some of the discussions people are having in here.

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On 10/14/2020 at 2:54 AM, NZK said:

Yep, exactly. The line has to pull from way aft - an easy way to picture it is using the overhead of Svea and their deckchute - the TP drop system is basically an internal version of this without the sock. 

The drop-line (red) has to lead at least as far back as the end of the chute/back of the kite (yellow). Svea's leads further aft than technically necessary to get back to a winch that isn't already being used - they could theoretically have led it directly inboard from the aft end of the chute onto one of the midships winches just forward of the deckhouse but ultimately their racing set-up doesn't allow for this....

Looking at the Pogo pictures I expect you'd put a second snatch block on the aft quarter and run the line back through this and up into the highest speed pit/companionway winch..?

PS. Big points for use of 'abaft'....

 

Whilst we're talking about Svea and winch line-speed...

 

Svea deckchute.png

https://fb.watch/1YLzRQFQRp/

great video of that line speed in action 

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On 11/19/2020 at 9:10 PM, Ishmael said:

What does a rebuild entail? Change the oil, check the caster pressure, clean the keyboard. There's more?

My old Rhodes electric piano had $1,600 poured into the guts before I bought it. Pretty much everything inside was used up. Now it’s like new and still looks 50 years old and stage worn.

 

10 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

So, to recap: 

I should have built a 3 masted, carbon boat, slathered in epoxy with a planned obsolescence piano onboard, outfitted with single panel magic sails.  

Cool. Cool. Cool.  Got it now. I'll go tell Pogo. 

 

 

 

That would have satisfied at least one person here. 
 

Can’t wait for more pics and info!

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4 hours ago, jackolantern said:

https://fb.watch/1YLzRQFQRp/

great video of that line speed in action 

I thought my earlier post included that video but I guess it didn't embed properly... The hydro package on that boat is insane, I forget what pressure they can run at but it's not one that makes you feel comfortable...

Thanks again for keeping this thread running and props on sewing your own boom tent - did you get measurements from another 50 or use the GA drawings to get the offsets? 

I've lost track of whether mainsail 'storage' has been discussed? Are you going for the narrow section boom with the lateral 'spreaders' or is there an alternative option?

I have to be honest some of the covers on the pogo website look pretty abysmal....(That North branded stackpack/loose fitting bedsheet on Maremosso being one)

 

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16 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

In other news, been a pretty quiet week on build updates. Lots of paperwork this week - hull id numbers, USCG documentation, sail numbers, and lining up measurement at the moment of delivery to avoid multiple ins-and-outs to get everything laserbeamed.  I guess at some point I should think about taxes and getting it officially flagged and all that , but so far, it seems like "sail it to the US (or maybe USVI?),  pay excise tax" is just about the extend of the complexity.  Of course, I could be totally wrong.

Meanwhile, I've been sewing a boom tent, and sorting out tool sets for minimal weight to bring with me when I hop the pond to take delivery.  Not too exciting, but keeps me busy while I wait on lockdown. 

Mind if I ask how the process has been going? Narrowing down choices for the next boat and a (smaller) Pogo is at the top of the list that would also be coming to Chicago.  Had a read of shaggy's thread which included the joys of spending the holidays at your local shipping port and the vagaries of government run bureaucracies, curious how your buying/commissioning/importing has been going with the yard and the authorities.  Keep the updates coming and any tips on where to park something around here with an ass that Sir Mix-a-Lot can admire would be appreciated.

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4 hours ago, smokeless said:

Mind if I ask how the process has been going? Narrowing down choices for the next boat and a (smaller) Pogo is at the top of the list that would also be coming to Chicago.  Had a read of shaggy's thread which included the joys of spending the holidays at your local shipping port and the vagaries of government run bureaucracies, curious how your buying/commissioning/importing has been going with the yard and the authorities.  Keep the updates coming and any tips on where to park something around here with an ass that Sir Mix-a-Lot can admire would be appreciated.

just buy shaggy's ? turn key bad mother fucker.

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15 hours ago, smokeless said:

an ass that Sir Mix-a-Lot can admire

Truer words have never been spoken. This is my favorite part of the hull.

3b19e69829ec4c70d8cda7c8122f63e7.jpg

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16 hours ago, smokeless said:

Mind if I ask how the process has been going? Narrowing down choices for the next boat and a (smaller) Pogo is at the top of the list that would also be coming to Chicago.  Had a read of shaggy's thread which included the joys of spending the holidays at your local shipping port and the vagaries of government run bureaucracies, curious how your buying/commissioning/importing has been going with the yard and the authorities. 

I don't think I'm going to have nearly as much difficulty with either commissioning or importing.

Commissioning:

I'm picking up the boat in France, right near the constructions site. On the invoice, they have a pretty significant commissioning charge, that I would imagine would be replaced with a significant shipping charge, if I was having it shipped here.  My expectation is that I'm stepping onto a boat that's ready to sail.  Most of the work that needs to be done is on my brain-- getting familiar with all of the systems, and a feel for how she handles in different conditions on the bay of Biscay before setting out proper.  Also in my favor -- the order for sails was significant, and the bid included having experts from North Sails at the harbor for commissioning and working through challenges.  I've split the gear up among nine suitcases (safety gear, cooking, cruising gear, dinghy, torqueedo outboard, etc) to be brought 3 per crew on the shakedown sail, which should streamline customs issues for getting stuff to the boat. 

Importing: 

I think this will be easy.I'm sailing her back via Portugal, Spain, and the ARC. So, the entire trip is EU, and then USA.  I'm a US Citizen. So, I think I just get the boat appraised and pay the 1.5% excise tax, and that's it.  

 

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19 hours ago, NZK said:

I've lost track of whether mainsail 'storage' has been discussed? Are you going for the narrow section boom with the lateral 'spreaders' or is there an alternative option?

I have to be honest some of the covers on the pogo website look pretty abysmal....(That North branded stackpack/loose fitting bedsheet on Maremosso being one)

 

The boom has three triangular spreaders to hold the stacked sail, with an ugly bag that zips closed to cover it all up, along with lazy jacks.  I saw it in action on Surfing Petrel. The skipper hopped up on the mast, and flaked it down, while lowering the 2:1 halyard by hand.  Yes, it looks ugly, but it also allows a 100m2 mainsail to be handled single-handed.  That's just too much convenience to worry about how bad it looks.  

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12 hours ago, bigrpowr said:

just buy shaggy's ? turn key bad mother fucker.

That it is and it will make someone very, very happy.  

Sadly, it won't fit in the slips a five minute walk from my house.  Closest available parking for it is over an hour drive each way.

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1 hour ago, tumbleweed314 said:

Importing: 

I think this will be easy.I'm sailing her back via Portugal, Spain, and the ARC. So, the entire trip is EU, and then USA. 

 

That sounds terrible.  Being the generous soul I am, no charge to deliver her back for you on her ample bottom via Portugal, Spain, and the ARC. All that sailing in the trades on a boat like that and next thing you know you've quit your job, have a beard, a YT channel, and spend all your time spearfishing and drinking beer. I'll tell the wife and kids it's a humanitarian aid mission, saving you from all that.

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1 hour ago, tumbleweed314 said:

The boom has three triangular spreaders to hold the stacked sail, with an ugly bag that zips closed to cover it all up, along with lazy jacks.  I saw it in action on Surfing Petrel. The skipper hopped up on the mast, and flaked it down, while lowering the 2:1 halyard by hand.  Yes, it looks ugly, but it also allows a 100m2 mainsail to be handled single-handed.  That's just too much convenience to worry about how bad it looks.  

Looks phenomenal to me. Wife on the kite, toddler on the main, me on the handlebars.  The french have this cruising thing dialed.

ThisIsFrenchCruising.jpg

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8 hours ago, smokeless said:

Looks phenomenal to me. Wife on the kite, toddler on the main, me on the handlebars.  The french have this cruising thing dialed.

ThisIsFrenchCruising.jpg

The other thing this photo shows is the 3 reef lines at the clew of the main.  3 reefs seemed like a lot, but there's a key feature I worked out with the sailmaker and Axxon in the measurements: The third reef will put the squaretop underneath the running backs, with both of them on.  This will make singlehanding waaaaaay easy. (And the sail with 3rd reefs in is still 52m2 -- larger than my current full main)

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11 hours ago, smokeless said:

That it is and it will make someone very, very happy.  

Sadly, it won't fit in the slips a five minute walk from my house.  Closest available parking for it is over an hour drive each way.

well.. that would be a problem. good luck with whatever you go with!

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Why do the Pogo's go with tiller instead of wheel?

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1 hour ago, MauiPunter said:

Why do the Pogo's go with tiller instead of wheel?

That's a good question that needs more than a passing thought. 

I think its multi-faceted.  It seems to me to be part of the whole Brittany/French solo sailor background, which often seems to have its roots in simplicity, efficiency and reliability.

A tiller we all acknowledge is hard to beat for feel. A tiller is simple. It's reliable. With the type of boats we are talking about, they all have autopilots, so its not like you are fixed in that steering position the entire time you are sailing, negating the arguments behind neck strain and such.

The dual canted rudders provide excellent bite even as the wind strength goes north, so there is little of the loading where a wheel might offer an advantage over a heavy loaded tiller. 

The helming position is well protected and can go further forrard for weight placement. 

There is less moving parts. 

The cockpits are so massive there is less physical enroachment into the cockpit space compared to a more traditional skinny boat. Knuckled tiller extension arms help with length when needed and stow away neatly when not needed.

I'm no naval architect so I might be talking utter shite, the above is simply my impression after sampling both options. The 12.50 tiller version is sublime to helm, it feels literally like a big dinghy. 

One negative I suppose with a tiller...it simply doesn't look as sexy to the novices. I went for wheels to meet my love for taking out lots of different groups of people, from kids to newbies to clients to the race crew and I admit I am very happy with my choice of  wheels. 

But I'd happily take the tiller version tomorrow, no problem. 

Thanks Mai, that made me really stop and think before posting this, cheers!   

 

 

  

 

 

   

  

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43 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

That's a good question that needs more than a passing thought. 

I think its multi-faceted.  It seems to me to be part of the whole Brittany/French solo sailor background, which often seems to have its roots in simplicity, efficiency and reliability.

A tiller we all acknowledge is hard to beat for feel. A tiller is simple. It's reliable.   

 

 

  

 

 

   

  

And its harder to wrap the mainsheet around a tiller and break it, if you do its easier to fix than a wheel :D

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1 hour ago, Bill E Goat said:

And its harder to wrap the mainsheet around a tiller and break it, if you do its easier to fix than a wheel :D

What is this breaking of wheels of which you speak? :lol:

IMG_0344_zps27sq5oni.thumb.jpg.67756cf9f2b75561a865fc1e713a8fed.jpg

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2 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

There is less moving parts.  

Not sure.

On this Pogo 50 photo, it is clear that the tiller is not on the rudder shaft. There is some mechanical linkage between.

 

six19-1720.jpg

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Come on, be adventurous, take one wheel and one tiller.

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Tillers are lighter and cheaper.

Tiller extensions allow the helm to move around and work the entire cockpit.

Tillers give more accurate stall warning, and easier feel and visual information for rig balance.

Tillers make it easier for the just woken up 3am brain to get the boat unfucked.

Tillers work better with vane steering.

We could go on all day...

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6 hours ago, fcfc said:

Not sure.

On this Pogo 50 photo, it is clear that the tiller is not on the rudder shaft. There is some mechanical linkage between.

Haven't seen the exact setup on the Pogo, but having had the joy of rethreading a dropped chain and cable through a pedestal offshore in some decent breeze while racing under kite and doing my best to keep all fingers attached to the appropriate hands, tillers with linkage are going to be simpler, lighter, and have fewer failure points than wheels.  Couldn't find a decent pic to show dual tillers, but the medium Seascape/First is an easy to see dual rudder to tiller linkage, compared to a Jefa dual wheel.  Wheels have positives, but simplicity and reliability aren't on that list compared to tillers.

 

Seascape24PortUphill.jpg

JefaTravellerSteering.png

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16 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

The other thing this photo shows is the 3 reef lines at the clew of the main.  3 reefs seemed like a lot, but there's a key feature I worked out with the sailmaker and Axxon in the measurements: The third reef will put the squaretop underneath the running backs, with both of them on.  This will make singlehanding waaaaaay easy. (And the sail with 3rd reefs in is still 52m2 -- larger than my current full main)

Looks like it's setup well for SH work.  Is it single line reefing to the cockpit on the 50?  From that pic it looks like the halyards and winch for the prodder sails are at the mast for solo hoists? If I have it right, on the 36 with no backstay they say the babystay/staysail have to be up when a reef is in.  Do the runners let you tuck in a reef without the babystay?

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12 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

I think its multi-faceted.  It seems to me to be part of the whole Brittany/French solo sailor background, which often seems to have its roots in simplicity, efficiency and reliability.

A tiller we all acknowledge is hard to beat for feel. A tiller is simple. It's reliable. With the type of boats we are talking about, they all have autopilots, so its not like you are fixed in that steering position the entire time you are sailing, negating the arguments behind neck strain and such.

The dual canted rudders provide excellent bite even as the wind strength goes north, so there is little of the loading where a wheel might offer an advantage over a heavy loaded tiller. 

For the cultural aspect, I think that many sailors here learnt how to sail (on a tiller boat!) before car driving age and a wheel is a bit counter-intuitive to many. My dad has owned a boat with a wheel for 10 years now and downwind in confused seas I still have a split second of latency before I know which way to turn the wheel, whereas with a tiller it is kind of hardwired in my brain, as soon as a wave hits the boat my hand counteracts it.

Some people say that a tiller is "reversed" but it isn't that reversed to me. When you steer with a tiller, you need to feel the boat through your bum and when the boat starts luffing you feel your bum going to leeward (the stern goes opposite the bow around the keel!) so you pull the tiller to bring yourself "back to where you were" in relation to the keel. It is hard to explain in word but super-intuitive by feel thus easier on the brain.

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The mindset should really be flipped and asked - in an era when autopilots are better than helm in all conditions when you can’t see and at least 50% of the time when you can see, why have the complication of wheels. 

 

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On 11/26/2020 at 9:34 AM, smokeless said:

Looks like it's setup well for SH work.  Is it single line reefing to the cockpit on the 50?  From that pic it looks like the halyards and winch for the prodder sails are at the mast for solo hoists? If I have it right, on the 36 with no backstay they say the babystay/staysail have to be up when a reef is in.  Do the runners let you tuck in a reef without the babystay?

No, it isn't a single reef line. It's five lines, pre-run to the cockpit. 3 for different tack points and 3 for clew points.  

Boat is designed with pretty deeply swept aft spreaders. The runners aren't necessary at all to keep the mast up.  The runners give me control of mast shape.  The exception is downwind in a blow-- I'll need the runners on then for structural strength.  That said, the runners can either be masthead or deflect to the 1st reef point, which is matched intentionally to the height of the inner stay.  So, with 1 reef in, runners, stay, masthead are all at the same height.  (Which, btw, is not too far off from the original mast height on the first 5 pogo 50s. This one has a bigger stick by 2m) 

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Loving this thread, thanks for sharing the dream.  Have had a few friends go through the Pogo buying experience, always with a happy outcome, one guy said it was more like being interviewed for adopting a child, hope you enjoy.

VAT is a massive subject in UK, what with the present omnishambles, how does it work for someone outside Europe buying a boat in Europe?  The yard would I suppose still have to charge you 20%, which you claim back when you can prove she has been exported?  Do you just sail straight to the Channel islands, and do your tax stuff there?

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1 hour ago, maxstaylock said:

Loving this thread, thanks for sharing the dream.  Have had a few friends go through the Pogo buying experience, always with a happy outcome, one guy said it was more like being interviewed for adopting a child, hope you enjoy.

VAT is a massive subject in UK, what with the present omnishambles, how does it work for someone outside Europe buying a boat in Europe?  The yard would I suppose still have to charge you 20%, which you claim back when you can prove she has been exported?  Do you just sail straight to the Channel islands, and do your tax stuff there?

 I believe the way this works is the paperwork is filed ahead of time, and I never see VAT. 

 

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2 minutes ago, tumbleweed314 said:

 I believe the way this works is the paperwork is filed ahead of time, and I never see VAT. 

 

Come to think of it, I should probably ask an expert. I'm generally pretty DIY, but this seems like a place to not be pound foolish.   Anyone know a US based agent who understands both the tax issues here in the US (Federal and state use taxes) and also how to navigate VAT? 

Early on, I reached out to a few US customs agents to help make sure everything is copacetic on the import. I got zero responses.

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I'd suggest talking to someone like Peters and May.  They see these issues regularly, and have experts (or access to experts).

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6 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

Loving this thread, thanks for sharing the dream.  Have had a few friends go through the Pogo buying experience, always with a happy outcome, one guy said it was more like being interviewed for adopting a child, hope you enjoy.

VAT is a massive subject in UK, what with the present omnishambles, how does it work for someone outside Europe buying a boat in Europe?  The yard would I suppose still have to charge you 20%, which you claim back when you can prove she has been exported?  Do you just sail straight to the Channel islands, and do your tax stuff there?

Hiya mazstaylock,

You don't pay VAT, the boat is sold ex-vat, you do have to pay the applicable tax rate for the destination country.

This has to be undertaken and sorted before you can take possession of the boat at the destination.

I paid the 10% GST and a duty of 5% as per Australian requirements. A trick here is to remember that your freight costs are also factored in with the purchase price before the tax rate is applied.

 Tumbleweed, there is a French shipping agent called Baguliere , the chaps name was Damien Courterel, he was very helpful and was who we ended up shipping with. Ask Coralie for his contact details, I am sure she would still have them. If no, let me know and I will dig them up for you.  

Edit: Sorry, that is if you are shipping and not sailing her home. 

Cheers,

SB

 

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14 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

Loving this thread, thanks for sharing the dream.  Have had a few friends go through the Pogo buying experience, always with a happy outcome, one guy said it was more like being interviewed for adopting a child, hope you enjoy.

VAT is a massive subject in UK, what with the present omnishambles, how does it work for someone outside Europe buying a boat in Europe?  The yard would I suppose still have to charge you 20%, which you claim back when you can prove she has been exported?  Do you just sail straight to the Channel islands, and do your tax stuff there?

AFAIU, VAT is not charged on exports,presumably you have a few months to leave the Schengen area.

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14 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

Come to think of it, I should probably ask an expert. I'm generally pretty DIY, but this seems like a place to not be pound foolish.   Anyone know a US based agent who understands both the tax issues here in the US (Federal and state use taxes) and also how to navigate VAT? 

Early on, I reached out to a few US customs agents to help make sure everything is copacetic on the import. I got zero responses.

FWIW, when I had the K1 shipped from Rondar in England, there was no VAT, and we paid only State of Washington taxes.  I called the State, and looked at the website- they were really helpful.  Seems to me Pogo should know.  The shipper was also a huge (and friendly) help, but I did RORO, which probably won’t help for the 50.

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17 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

No, it isn't a single reef line. It's five lines, pre-run to the cockpit. 3 for different tack points and 3 for clew points.  

Boat is designed with pretty deeply swept aft spreaders. The runners aren't necessary at all to keep the mast up.  The runners give me control of mast shape.  The exception is downwind in a blow-- I'll need the runners on then for structural strength.  That said, the runners can either be masthead or deflect to the 1st reef point, which is matched intentionally to the height of the inner stay.  So, with 1 reef in, runners, stay, masthead are all at the same height.  (Which, btw, is not too far off from the original mast height on the first 5 pogo 50s. This one has a bigger stick by 2m) 

Are you actually getting a bendy mast?  Finot isn’t exactly known for that IIRR. We have big sweep on our non bendy Ballenger, and two sets of runners- top and 3/4 ( jib hounds there, and 1st reef)- getting on agreement when to use the runners for what varies with everybody.  The 3/4 does control forestay tension some,  and can give a couple of points to windward.  You going with hydraulics?

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On 11/26/2020 at 10:34 AM, Panoramix said:

For the cultural aspect, I think that many sailors here learnt how to sail (on a tiller boat!) before car driving age and a wheel is a bit counter-intuitive to many. My dad has owned a boat with a wheel for 10 years now and downwind in confused seas I still have a split second of latency before I know which way to turn the wheel, whereas with a tiller it is kind of hardwired in my brain, as soon as a wave hits the boat my hand counteracts it.

Some people say that a tiller is "reversed" but it isn't that reversed to me. When you steer with a tiller, you need to feel the boat through your bum and when the boat starts luffing you feel your bum going to leeward (the stern goes opposite the bow around the keel!) so you pull the tiller to bring yourself "back to where you were" in relation to the keel. It is hard to explain in word but super-intuitive by feel thus easier on the brain.

I suck at a wheel. I have to hold the bottom of one to steer without thinking about it.  Wheels are numb.  BUT!  You have two rudders, no?  2 rudders can be a bit numb too, depending on the hull shape, so you wind up sailing with your brain and not your body, anyway, so maybe it’s a wash...... still, a wheel is one more complex system to worry about.  My $.02.

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On 11/25/2020 at 3:12 PM, tumbleweed314 said:

The other thing this photo shows is the 3 reef lines at the clew of the main.  3 reefs seemed like a lot, but there's a key feature I worked out with the sailmaker and Axxon in the measurements: The third reef will put the squaretop underneath the running backs, with both of them on.  This will make singlehanding waaaaaay easy. (And the sail with 3rd reefs in is still 52m2 -- larger than my current full main)

So how are you dealing with the reefed part of that massive sail on the boom?  Lazy jacks and sail ties?  In 25K TW?  SH?  I’ve never seen any of the Open sailors reefing.  Always wondered about how they do that...  (Kind of argues for a wishboom, no? :lol:)

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On 11/25/2020 at 4:58 AM, tumbleweed314 said:

The boom has three triangular spreaders to hold the stacked sail, with an ugly bag that zips closed to cover it all up, along with lazy jacks.  I saw it in action on Surfing Petrel. The skipper hopped up on the mast, and flaked it down, while lowering the 2:1 halyard by hand.  Yes, it looks ugly, but it also allows a 100m2 mainsail to be handled single-handed.  That's just too much convenience to worry about how bad it looks.  

We call ours hayracks, and we have line at the end of ‘em, parallel to the boom both sides (for lightness), with lazy jacks, and the sail still rolls off at times.  Our system is based on Ocean Planet’s.  I’ll see if I can dig up some photos...

here- scroll down 4-5 pages, and you’ll see it

http://www.wyliedesigngroup.com/wylie_design_group/press_files/OceanPlanet, Wooden Boat.pdf

 

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On 11/20/2020 at 10:30 AM, apophenia said:

Clearly, piano makers could learn from naval architects: it’s time to switch from wood to composites!

https://www.worldpianonews.com/new-product/art-case/schimmel-k208-pegasus-piano-purchased-by-atlantis-sanya/

I was the NW regional tech and concert service tech for Schimmel for decades.  The problem isn’t so much then case, it’s the guts.  A lot of really smart folks have been trying to get rid of the wood bits for hundreds of years,but until the last decade or so, no luck- they don’t feel right, sound right or they squeak , grind, click, or break long before wood.  And this is with blind testing.  Some people won’t even play on the Schimmel you posted.  Because of the way it looks, not the way it plays or sounds.  Why do you think they only make 2 a year?  I’ve seen more than a few recording sessions ruined because a pianist started weeping when we took the lid off a normal looking grand so the mics would be happier.  And don’t get me started on emotional tirades about acoustic stage positioning of a piano.  One concert artist actually told me that a solo piano recital wasn’t about the music. :blink:  It was how it looked.

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On 11/23/2020 at 7:14 PM, tumbleweed314 said:

So, to recap: 

I should have built a 3 masted, carbon boat, slathered in epoxy with a planned obsolescence piano onboard, outfitted with single panel magic sails.  

Cool. Cool. Cool.  Got it now. I'll go tell Pogo. 

 

 

 

:lol:Pianos make better ballast on a boat than music, if low enough in the hull .  There’s more than one on some sailboats out there, and they rust so fast they need to be replaced pretty often.  Sailboats are, on balance, more fun than a piano.  Baby the Pogo.  Concert artist don’t usually baby concert pianos.  So they fall apart.  The concert artists too.....

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On 11/28/2020 at 9:12 AM, Amati said:

Are you actually getting a bendy mast?  Finot isn’t exactly known for that IIRR. We have big sweep on our non bendy Ballenger, and two sets of runners- top and 3/4 ( jib hounds there, and 1st reef)- getting on agreement when to use the runners for what varies with everybody.  The 3/4 does control forestay tension some,  and can give a couple of points to windward.  You going with hydraulics?

The spec is for top of mast to be able to bend 1.5% of the mast height. 22M mast, so 33 cm. (I think. This might have dropped to just over 1% when I switched to the higher modulus carbon and smaller cross section. Can’t remember.)

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On 11/28/2020 at 9:50 AM, Amati said:

So how are you dealing with the reefed part of that massive sail on the boom?  Lazy jacks and sail ties?  In 25K TW?  SH?  I’ve never seen any of the Open sailors reefing.  Always wondered about how they do that...  (Kind of argues for a wishboom, no? :lol:)

The bag atop the boom on those horizontal spreaders stays in place while sailing. The luff is on tracks. Between this two things, I don’t think I need mid sail tie downs. But maybe I will. We’ll see. 

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57 minutes ago, tumbleweed314 said:

The spec is for top of mast to be able to bend 1.5% of the mast height. 22M mast, so 33 cm. (I think. This might have dropped to just over 1% when I switched to the higher modulus carbon and smaller cross section. Can’t remember.)

Any idea how many diameters that is? Bending sideways, or longitudinally? I’m really interested how it’s going to work, since we have a Gunter rigged rotating wing mast rig on our 23’ tri, and a big part of guessing how much stiffness we needed for the topmast (round) was how much bending was needed in light winds vs heavy winds, and which way it should bend.  We didn’t go for sideways as much as in line as far as layup went. From my research, we decided that light airs required the stiffest setup, and the stronger the wind, the bendier the topmast.  Betwaite, mainly.  I think of it a$ an experiment. :lol:  depend$ when you start reefing, and how much.  So what was the reasoning behind the tip flex and the cut of your sail?  Asking for a friend..... ;) (who was your North Guru?) :) 

There’s a lot to think about, no?  Big fun!:)

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1 hour ago, tumbleweed314 said:

The bag atop the boom on those horizontal spreaders stays in place while sailing. The luff is on tracks. Between this two things, I don’t think I need mid sail tie downs. But maybe I will. We’ll see. 

Or really stiff big honker battens at the tops of the bag?  How high the sail stacks matters, and the number of cars interacts with that..

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19 hours ago, Amati said:

Or really stiff big honker battens at the tops of the bag?  How high the sail stacks matters, and the number of cars interacts with that..

You might want to look at the Harken switch track, where each car alternately diverts itself to one of a pair of lower tracks.  This effectively halves stack height when reefed or doused.

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2 hours ago, P_Wop said:

You might want to look at the Harken switch track, where each car alternately diverts itself to one of a pair of lower tracks.  This effectively halves stack height when reefed or doused.

Didn’t know the under 90’ club had those available. :lol: If only Antal made a Switch Track type of thingie .....  on the other hand, the switch track would go a long ways on the mega yacht fantasy-  IIRR the NYYC called anything over 39’11&3/4” a yacht....:lol:

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

Didn’t know the under 90’ club had those available. :lol: If only Antal made a Switch Track type of thingie .....  on the other hand, the switch track would go a long ways on the mega yacht fantasy-  IIRR the NYYC called anything over 39’11&3/4” a yacht....:lol:

Haha!  Yes, the Harken Switch products go right down to 40-footers.  No need for your YC mooring in Sardinia!

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I've got the 27mm non-captive system B. Unfortunately, the switch track doesn't work with the ball bearing cars, so no retrofit for me. :(

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2 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Haha!  Yes, the Harken Switch products go right down to 40-footers.  No need for your YC mooring in Sardinia!

Too bad.... it was a great selling point.....:P

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2 hours ago, IStream said:

I've got the 27mm non-captive system B. Unfortunately, the switch track doesn't work with the ball bearing cars, so no retrofit for me. :(

It’s only money, right?  :)

But right now my stack is so high I’m using one of the jib halyards to zip up the sail cover.  And storing a ladder is a pain. I really need a new main, blah blah blah etc...20 year anniversary having Amati...quasi refit time, maybe, if we ever get out of COVID.  Kind of hard to work on her watching out for the odd unmasked lurker wanting to talk 2 feet away, much less a boatyard.  Sheesh.

 

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2 hours ago, longy said:

I installed a switch track on a J-160. Worked great.

Did you have to help it down, like the Harken guy in the official video?  Or did it fall without encouragement?  How big a project was it?  Did you have to switch cars?

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Original equipment was Antal track & cars (no balls). I had to make a wide aft end on the spar to fit the 'switch track'. Harken very easily custom finished their track by drilling it to the exact hole spacing that Antal track had, at NO EXTRA CHARGE. So I could re-use the original tapped holes in the mast. Track lengths were different, so I had to very carefully figure out the joints to stay lined up with old holes. Switch cars fell down with no extra help needed when dropping the main. Installed a Hall 'V' boom atb the same time (but that's another story)

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33 minutes ago, longy said:

Original equipment was Antal track & cars (no balls). I had to make a wide aft end on the spar to fit the 'switch track'. Harken very easily custom finished their track by drilling it to the exact hole spacing that Antal track had, at NO EXTRA CHARGE. So I could re-use the original tapped holes in the mast. Track lengths were different, so I had to very carefully figure out the joints to stay lined up with old holes. Switch cars fell down with no extra help needed when dropping the main. Installed a Hall 'V' boom atb the same time (but that's another story)

Wow. B) West Coast parallel universe.  You (IStream & longy) have rekindled the micro/nano/mega yacht flame! (Wait, Is a Nano mega yacht 30’, like the Nano Wally?)  (Which means a micro mega yacht is 39’11&7/8”?) :)

Why I can’t quit this place.  

Now to price the thing.  How many full battens does a boy really need?

Proposed nano mega yacht size:
 

317E7D0B-1021-4860-9972-1930CC5E1F33.jpeg

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I would verify how well 'switch track' works with full battens first.

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13 hours ago, Amati said:

It’s only money, right?  :)

But right now my stack is so high I’m using one of the jib halyards to zip up the sail cover.  And storing a ladder is a pain. I really need a new main, blah blah blah etc...20 year anniversary having Amati...quasi refit time, maybe, if we ever get out of COVID.  Kind of hard to work on her watching out for the odd unmasked lurker wanting to talk 2 feet away, much less a boatyard.  Sheesh.

 

Even I couldn't rationalize getting rid of a perfectly good track to put the switch track in. Plus, I really like the way the ball bearing cars move. I'm embarrassed to say how much I love to watch the main fall into the stackpack under its own weight. I flake the halyard in the cockpit, release the clutch, and stand back with a giant shit eating grin on my face. 

Anyway, regarding the stack height, if you've got a stackpack you owe it to yourself to set up an endless loop to operate the zipper. I spent a little time dialing mine in and it's a huge convenience. 

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52 minutes ago, longy said:

I would verify how well 'switch track' works with full battens first.

There’s always a monkey in the wrench, to steal a Christmas movie phrase.  You had all partial battens?

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Just as in hanked headsails, a light downhaul line can work wonders.   Lead it through a tiny eye lashed to alternate cars, and down she comes, even with full battens.  Hauling on the upper reef tacks helps gravity too.

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This is super helpful.  I've sent questions about ball-bearing based main track and also switch track to North Sails to get their opinion.  

Also, I've added "continuous line for stack pack" on my "Do it during sea trials" project board. 

Thanks for the tips! 

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2 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

This is super helpful.  I've sent questions about ball-bearing based main track and also switch track to North Sails to get their opinion.  

Also, I've added "continuous line for stack pack" on my "Do it during sea trials" project board. 

Thanks for the tips! 

Here’s a thread from 2009 about the switch track.  Seems like Harken will have had to make some improvements, at least where full battens are involved.  FWIW, we had a full battened main on an Antal slider system (p~ 48’ e~15’)  5 full battens, Spectra, pinhead, a fatter roach than a hobie 16, and never had a problem with it sliding  down.  A fair amount of mast bend.  Also had many fewer sliders than the main we have now (planform & battens like a Merlin Rocket main), so much lower stack than we have now- could reach the top of the stack then, not now. Never had a problem with the luff scalloping with the Spectra sail, 10 cars (?).  If North gets back, keep us in the loop?

Are you going to be using luff tension for leach control?  (Do big boats do that??)

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2 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Just as in hanked headsails, a light downhaul line can work wonders.   Lead it through a tiny eye lashed to alternate cars, and down she comes, even with full battens.  Hauling on the upper reef tacks helps gravity too.

Sometimes hoops look good, over rotating and all.  But then you might need a gaff,  if you need shrouds....

New Rig!  Aaaaaaaaaaaack

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6 minutes ago, Amati said:

Sometimes hoops look good, over rotating and all.  But then you might need a gaff,  if you need shrouds....

New Rig!  Aaaaaaaaaaaack

Yes, hoops can be good!

The Classic Yacht Experience | Puritan

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On 11/27/2020 at 4:08 PM, tumbleweed314 said:

No, it isn't a single reef line. It's five lines, pre-run to the cockpit. 3 for different tack points and 3 for clew points.  

<<snip>> 

Figured they were doing it right.  Any thought to going to reefing hooks or are the compression loads low enough not to worry? My guess is keeping the cockpit spaghetti down is preferred

 

4 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

This is super helpful.  I've sent questions about ball-bearing based main track and also switch track to North Sails to get their opinion.  

Also, I've added "continuous line for stack pack" on my "Do it during sea trials" project board. 

Thanks for the tips! 

I'm sure this is already sorted, but curious how you guys are handling the headboard attachment.  Rigging Projects gaff lock, Karver's version, or do North have their own system to not have you climbing halfway up the mast every time you want to cover up?  My guess is it'd still be a bit of a climb even with the SwitchTrack (what is it, 5-6 regular battens+gaff?)

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1 hour ago, smokeless said:

Figured they were doing it right.  Any thought to going to reefing hooks or are the compression loads low enough not to worry? My guess is keeping the cockpit spaghetti down is preferred

 

I'm sure this is already sorted, but curious how you guys are handling the headboard attachment.  Rigging Projects gaff lock, Karver's version, or do North have their own system to not have you climbing halfway up the mast every time you want to cover up?  My guess is it'd still be a bit of a climb even with the SwitchTrack (what is it, 5-6 regular battens+gaff?)

Suddenly, the aero limitations of Mari Cha come into focus....

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4 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Yes, hoops can be good!

The Classic Yacht Experience | Puritan

There was a period when surf oriented sail windsurfer design was splitting off from racing sails, doing a fabric version, over rotating, like those rings. (Unless they were really wet, and then they would stick to the mast).  They were pretty cool, but were swamped by the high tension membrane approach.  Velzey would disagree, but hey.....

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The switch track looks a very interesting product.  Tumbleweed … as well as asking North's opinion … you should check with the mast maker as to how the switch would attach to the mast.  It looks rather wide … curvature may be a problem.  I do like smart technology ideas, provided they works in practice.

Congratulations on taking the plunge into what looks to be a dream of a boat.

I'd be interested in your take on the standing rigging.  It has always seemed strange to me to go to all the expense and trouble of a weight saving carbon mast but then keep all that heavy stainless standing rigging.  Dyneema would seem to be a better match.  Stronger, lighter, less stretch, no corrosion.  Okay … it needs to be sheathed to protect from UV, but it should last a good long time if sheathed properly.  And the SS mast fittings also keep weight up high where you don't want it … ideal place for, dare I say it, Titanium & soft shackles.  Again, lighter, stronger no corrosion.

Best of luck with your journey … I followed the thread of Shaggy's 12.50 with great interest and will be following yours too.

Cheers

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9 hours ago, tonydove said:

The switch track looks a very interesting product.  Tumbleweed … as well as asking North's opinion … you should check with the mast maker as to how the switch would attach to the mast.  It looks rather wide … curvature may be a problem.  I do like smart technology ideas, provided they works in practice.

Congratulations on taking the plunge into what looks to be a dream of a boat.

I'd be interested in your take on the standing rigging.  It has always seemed strange to me to go to all the expense and trouble of a weight saving carbon mast but then keep all that heavy stainless standing rigging.  Dyneema would seem to be a better match.  Stronger, lighter, less stretch, no corrosion.  Okay … it needs to be sheathed to protect from UV, but it should last a good long time if sheathed properly.  And the SS mast fittings also keep weight up high where you don't want it … ideal place for, dare I say it, Titanium & soft shackles.  Again, lighter, stronger no corrosion.

Best of luck with your journey … I followed the thread of Shaggy's 12.50 with great interest and will be following yours too.

Cheers

That, and all the cool Colligo stuff:

https://www.colligomarine.com
 

did the Dyneema thing on the carbon trimaran rig- big fun!  Not exactly set and forget though...   Dyneema, Colligo, and Antal for the running backs on the Monohull.  Cool stuff.  
 

https://www.colligomarine.com/fundamentals

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Tumbleweed, are you going for an automatic rig (gust response) with your flexible mast top?  Will your shrouds go up to the top of the mast, or stop short?

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On 12/1/2020 at 7:20 PM, smokeless said:

I'm sure this is already sorted, but curious how you guys are handling the headboard attachment.  Rigging Projects gaff lock, Karver's version, or do North have their own system to not have you climbing halfway up the mast every time you want to cover up?  My guess is it'd still be a bit of a climb even with the SwitchTrack (what is it, 5-6 regular battens+gaff?)

This is not sorted yet. 

This thread kicked off a conversation with North (and Axxon by extension) about the T track.  

RPG Gaff Lock seems like the likely candidate.  Video below.  North has it's own solution that is also automatic, but maybe not as elegant as RPGs. (AKA throw a lot of lines at the problem) The RPG system seems to have some further advantages in terms of not having a pile of lines going from the top carriage to the headboard when the sail is packed away, as well -- just one line. 

B

 

 

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Here's a video of the gaff lock in action. I don't think I'll be using a halyard lock at the top like that, though.  Regardless. Pretty slick.  

 

 

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Has anyone used the RPG Gaff Lock system? I wonder if  there's a chance it will disengage while reefing the sail in a building breeze. That would be... uh... problematic.  

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On 11/13/2020 at 5:08 AM, Chimp too said:

Good enough if you are happy with a shit job! Can’t understand why they aren’t using epoxy for a boat of this size. If money is so tight that this is the reason, do a pogo 48 and do it properly.

US nuclear Submarine bows are built with Vinylester, to very rigorous standards. I would hardly call it a shit job just because Vinylester is being used. 

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#ehrmygerd.  The central enclosed area is the engine compartment. I hadn't realized it was only accessible from the port side.  It may not suprise anyone that the skippers berth is on the starboard side... which also has AC.  Keith, one of my crew, will learn about this from reading this comment, and realize he is bound for some sweaty passages.  

 

first_bulkheads.jpg

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