Raptorsailor

Jules Verne Trophy 2020

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Well, this attempt succeeded in getting Baron Benjamin de Rothschild into the sailing records, pending confirmation.

 - Passage of the Cape of Good Hope: 21 January 2021 at 11h27’46’’ UTC, in 11 days 9 hours and 53 minutes (new reference time)
- Passage of Cape Agulhas: 21 January 2021 at 15h37’53’’ UTC, in 11 days 14 hours and 03 minutes (new reference time)

Congrats, and commiseration, Gitana. 

From Charles:

Quote

Contacted by Cyril Dardashti, the director of the Gitana racing stable, Charles Caudrelier shared his first impressions: 

Everything was going well aboard. We were coming out of what was a tough night, with really heavy seas and a very shifty breeze, but things had improved since our gybe. Franck had just passed the helm to Morgan and a few minutes later there were some odd sensations and more and more vibration at the helm. We noticed that the leeward rudder, our starboard rudder, was moving around a lot from side to side. We brought the boat to a virtual standstill so David could go and look at the back of the float. Unfortunately, he quickly recognised that the rudder stock was seriously damaged. There was no particular impact to report prior to this observation and even though breakages are part and parcel of the history of our mechanical sport, we’re going to need to gain an understanding of what could have happened here. We cannot repair damage like this at sea and we can no longer use our rudder. We’ve raised it and now we’re sailing on port tack with no rudder. We are safe, but we are unable to go fast. The shore team and Marcel van Triest are looking at our options going forward, but one thing for sure is that the current health constraints related to the pandemic are complicating matters. We’ve turned back and we’re now setting a course towards Cape Town, which is around a two-day sea passage from here. In the meantime, we’ll decide whether we’re going to make a pit stop in South Africa or if we’ll make our own way straight back to Brittany.

It's a massive disappointment for everyone involved! We are so sorry to have to stop here, because we really wanted to bring this Jules Verne Trophy home… for Benjamin de Rothschild, Ariane de Rothschild and all our team.

http://www.gitana-team.com/en/actu/1298/the_maxi_edmond_de_rothschild_abandons_her_jules_verne_trophy_record_attempt

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4 hours ago, symbio2 said:

So far these boats never perform a week at 35nds.

 

So far they haven't had the perfect weather window like IDEC had you dunce.

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42 minutes ago, Geff said:

FCK!  SHT!  PSS!  :angry:

x100

dammit :(

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Bummer. Again.

Hmm. Maybe nextgen record breaker boat will be a catamaran. Modern take on Team Philips might be interesting/efficient. Fully foiling, long/tall foils to get the ride height, two wing masts with smallish soft cloths, designed to be driven with a small crew from inside a bat cave on each hull, pod racer pod in the middle for steering. One hull for the French, another for team Monsieur Alex L'Ugoboss. Throw in an Italian cook from team Maserati and success is almost guaranteed.

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28 minutes ago, TPG said:

So far they haven't had the perfect weather window like IDEC had you dunce.

FIFU.  The name calling isn't necessary.

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58 minutes ago, noaano said:

Bummer. Again.

Hmm. Maybe nextgen record breaker boat will be a catamaran. Modern take on Team Philips might be interesting/efficient. Fully foiling, long/tall foils to get the ride height, two wing masts with smallish soft cloths, designed to be driven with a small crew from inside a bat cave on each hull, pod racer pod in the middle for steering. One hull for the French, another for team Monsieur Alex L'Ugoboss. Throw in an Italian cook from team Maserati and success is almost guaranteed.

It's not just the height of foilshaft to get clearance, it's longitudinal location as well. If the set up places front foil further forward, the bows keep clear of wavetops even with the same shaft height. That means less weigh and/or loading for rudder shaft, and less breaking up. Wetting the central part of the hull by wavetops is not anywhere near as damaging to performance or structurally, thus more separation between front foil and rudderfoil should work. They could still carry 2 much smaller foils in between to assist liftoff in lighter winds. As those could be made lighter, the same overall weight budget would allow for heavier construction for the 4 foils used in tougher conditions => less breakages.

And the size of those for foils used for vertical lift could then be made smaller, leading to less vertical accelerations and associated loadings, again resulting less breakages.

 

Ps, I'm sure TPG will also see need for yet more insults due to this post, like always when some technical reasoning is discussed that he does not understand.

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Cue the Symbio idiot to claim that the damage is because the boat is a foiler.... making such claim without knowing a damned thing whether the rudder component that broke has anything to do with foiling, and ignoring that the boat was not doing anything "foiling" that a waterborne boat wouldn't have been doing.

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5 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

Cue the Symbio idiot to claim that the damage is because the boat is a foiler.... making such claim without knowing a damned thing whether the rudder component that broke has anything to do with foiling, and ignoring that the boat was not doing anything "foiling" that a waterborne boat wouldn't have been doing.

FIFY.

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4 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

Cue the Symbio idiot to claim that the damage is because the boat is a foiler.... making such claim without knowing a damned thing whether the rudder component that broke has anything to do with foiling, and ignoring that the boat was not doing anything "foiling" that a waterborne boat wouldn't have been doing.

 Gitana 17 is lighter than idec with same overall dimensions. Foilsystems increase loadings. Combine those and you should realize why Gitana 17 either uses better materials, better structural design or less safety factors. It makes no difference if the part that actually failed had something to do with foiling or not. It could have been made stronger and heavier for the same overall weight of the boat, if it would have had less and/or smaller foils.

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On 1/21/2021 at 6:03 PM, serialsailor said:

Very nice photo of gitana going down a wave. Probably taken before good Hope. It seems hard to keep the boat foiling in any reasonably big sea state.

IMG_20210121_170103.jpg

This picture clearly shows one of the reasons why I presented idea that a cat with 6 foils in different locations than ultimes for Jules Verne record breaking makes sense in this post: 

 

Even with same size foilstruts in vertical dimension all bows would be off the water if front foils would be further forward.

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1 minute ago, NotSoFast said:

 Gitana 17 is lighter than idec with same overall dimensions. Foilsystems increase loadings. Combine those and you should realize why Gitana 17 either uses better materials, better structural design or less safety factors. It makes no difference if the part that actually failed had something to do with foiling or not. It could have been made stronger and heavier for the same overall weight of the boat, if it would have had less and/or smaller foils.

Might we wait to see the cause of the damage before jumping to conclusions?  If they hit something large, it (foiling) is probably irrelevant.  If it is fatigue from foiling, it is then a valid point that has to be handled, just like all technology.  Just like they learned about the cavitation damage on the TJV withdrawal.  This was the first time that a sailboat foiled on the open ocean for 10K miles.

The point I was making is that people like Symbio who thinks that technology advancing happens smoothly, or if there are setbacks the design is the wrong idea, are ignorant.  Ooooh, sorry hyper-sensitive types that seem to forget that Sailing Anarchy has always been a place where people are not supposed to get butthurt, act as mommy for those who get butthurt, or have to watch how they say things.

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Just now, NotSoFast said:

This picture clearly shows one of the reasons why I presented idea that a cat with 6 foils in different locations than ultimes for Jules Verne record breaking makes sense in this post: 

 

Even with same size foilstruts in vertical dimension all bows would be off the water if front foils would be further forward.

On the video where that capture comes from, that "nose dive" is no where near as bad as it looks in the still image.

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8 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

When did Sailing Anarchy become a "nice" place?

I dont' know, but as an example most threads in AC anarchy contained pretty nice technical conversation about what possibilities for really fast sailing boats could be done under rules after Oracle announced their deed of gift challenge and before they showed any information of their boat named Dogzilla before AC33 took place. that took place more than 10 years ago, perhaps there were something nice before that too?

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9 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

Might we wait to see the cause of the damage before jumping to conclusions?  If they hit something large, it (foiling) is probably irrelevant.  If it is fatigue from foiling, it is then a valid point that has to be handled, just like all technology.  Just like they learned about the cavitation damage on the TJV withdrawal.  This was the first time that a sailboat foiled on the open ocean for 10K miles.

I don't think I was jumping to any conclusions, just stated some facts. Higher fraction of overall weight goes to appendages in a foiling boat compared to non-foiling boat. That means there is less weight budget available for structures of the rest of the boat, with at least the same loads. That remains factual regardless what caused the breakages of Gitana 17 rudder or rudder systems. And there as weight reduces performance far more in a foiling boat than non-foiling, the latter types are bound to push the limits more for weight savings. As have happened based on weight info provided by the teams themselves.

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15 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

On the video where that capture comes from, that "nose dive" is no where near as bad as it looks in the still image.

So?

I'm sure there has been something worse not shown on any publicized video than the posted still image in question.

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29 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

When did Sailing Anarchy become a "nice" place?

Just certain threads like this one.  But feel free to flame away...

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15 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:

I dont' know, but as an example most threads in AC anarchy contained pretty nice technical conversation about what possibilities for really fast sailing boats could be done under rules after Oracle announced their deed of gift challenge and before they showed any information of their boat named Dogzilla before AC33 took place. that took place more than 10 years ago, perhaps there were something nice before that too?

Huh?  What does that have to do with people getting pissy about sharp comments?  Did anyone suggest no one talk about tech of the boats?  Nope.  Symbio came in making claims that are not founded as if he had some data to back it up, did so in the face of all the best designers moving in the direction of these foiling concepts, and doing so ignoring that Gitana was NEVER trying to go full top speed, but rather always balancing their tempo with preserving the boat and optimizing the routing for the systems that were available to them.  He rightly got called on it.  Then wankers come in to I guess defend him, or try and make this venue "nice".  Screw that, just throw it out there rather than making this place another damned PC place safe for the hyper-sensitive.  If I make a douchey comment, I deserve to be ripped for it... big fucking deal.

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Symbio stated his English isn't very fluent, which means there are statements that get lost in translation.  I'll take his word for it, until proven otherwise, then trash the sht out of him and open season.

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14 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:

So?

I'm sure there has been something worse not shown on any publicized video than the posted still image in question.

Just saying that photo makes it look like it is digging in badly, but in actuality the boat just cuts through that without significant slowing. 

Maybe they will end up going with longer foils, but I'm guessing that comes with its own hazards... to start with having longer foils dictates more leverage and higher stress on the foils and linkages.  Also, having the boat higher can result in the boat having more height to come down from... that could lead to much more dramatic crashes off the foils.  Maybe the best compromise is to have the boat more frequently skipping off the water or having minor periods of the noses cutting through waves, but a safer set up.  We will see, I'm sure.

One thing is for sure, we seem to have had much less issues with pitchpoling than in the past, seems the stability of the boats has been very good, they just have had to deal with cavitation damage, impact damage, and linkage damage.... the first and last are much more easily fixable.

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10 minutes ago, Geff said:

Symbio stated his English isn't very fluent, which means there are statements that get lost in translation.  I'll take his word for it, until proven otherwise, then trash the sht out of him and open season.

Now that's the attitude! 

But seriously, I do not believe it is his wording, but rather his point.  He seems to be claiming (regardless how the words being clunky) that foilers can't go a week at pace similar to IDEC, and that they really don't have many areas where they have an advantage.  That is reason, not wording.... with that, I trash/flame away!

By the way, my MO is to have a very forgiving attitude on message boards... if Symbio makes a great point in his next point, I will ignore what he said in his previous post and give him props.  Hell, I did that with DougLord all the time, where others would NEVER recognize him making a decent point.

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Sodebo has a vid up about the ups and downs as they evolve their project. Seems relevant to today's discussion, but it's a 5-clicker.

(as for SA posting style--I choose mine, and like that this site is pretty well self regulating. Whether someone expects me to write SA-nasty is as easy to avoid as SA-nicey-nicey expectations.)

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It seems unlikely to me SA commenters are qualified to be critical of best designers and manufacturing on planet. Gitana tried, had damage, abandoned. Is unfortunate but JV a hard goal.

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2 hours ago, Varan said:

Benjamin de Rothschild looks happy

rc.jpg.3acc0d207a8d4ea1930e69678611dff2.jpg

Sad he could not watch.

I wonder if this was taken on G IV.  I got to race on her once when she was Matoaka.  Huge overlapping jibs.  Worn out a lot of grinders.  Luckily I was trimming.

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9 minutes ago, Jean-Baptiste said:

It seems unlikely to me SA commenters are qualified to be critical of best designers and manufacturing on planet. Gitana tried, had damage, abandoned. Is unfortunate but JV a hard goal.

And yet, some posters are well qualified to be critical: they've done the races, designed the boats, had the training, or even had sufficient experience to comment intelligently. But true: some just have feeling they are right, and that makes them think their feelings must be right. Up to the reader to filter which is which.

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2 hours ago, NotSoFast said:

 Gitana 17 is lighter than idec with same overall dimensions. Foilsystems increase loadings. Combine those and you should realize why Gitana 17 either uses better materials, better structural design or less safety factors. It makes no difference if the part that actually failed had something to do with foiling or not. It could have been made stronger and heavier for the same overall weight of the boat, if it would have had less and/or smaller foils.

Is it not just a matter of time. My take on it is that a boat needs to be fully bedded in before being able to complete a jules verne lap (macif and Gabart being the exception that proves the rule). This is a race for seasoned old in the tooth ocean yachts. 

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19 minutes ago, BBA said:

Is it not just a matter of time. My take on it is that a boat needs to be fully bedded in before being able to complete a jules verne lap (macif and Gabart being the exception that proves the rule). This is a race for seasoned old in the tooth ocean yachts. 

Right. And there is no better way to get a seasoned old in the tooth ocean yacht than to go out there and sail those oceans. I do not have the numbers, but I know it has been posted somewhere; the number of attempts to beat the JV record vs. the number of successes just show the difficulty of the task.

It should be, unfortunately, or fortunately, considered normal to try, and fail.

 

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Vid: They captured the discussion. "I wasn't pushing."

 

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2 hours ago, stief said:

And yet, some posters are well qualified to be critical: they've done the races, designed the boats, had the training, or even had sufficient experience to comment intelligently. But true: some just have feeling they are right, and that makes them think their feelings must be right. Up to the reader to filter which is which.

Who?

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At least two posters here have raced around the planet in one way or another, just stick around for a while and you will figure it out. Don't be an obnoxious newbie and spout off without having hung around for a couple years or so.

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18 minutes ago, stief said:

That's for them to say (the rule was and maybe still is not to out anyone). 

found one of the links http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/announcement/22-abbreviated-rules/

Out anyone?  If have ability and knowledge,  speak up, list qualifications, no need be shy, we would all appreciate information.

My guess is Gitana design and manufacturing is top, as are Cammas and Caudrelier, and are well funded by the Edmond de Rothschild group.

But if someone has greater expertise by all means state qualifications and speak up.

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From the talking in the last video, it is apparently either the shaft or the bottome bearing area or both, on the starboard rudder that is damaged. So no way for them to repair that at sea. Therefore the decision.

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6 hours ago, TPG said:

So far they haven't had the perfect weather window like IDEC had you dunce.

(Sorry for my english)

We must recognize that for the last three years, 3 to 4 Ultim (Gitana17, Macif, Banque Populaire?, Sodebo ..) have compete against each other during 1 or 2 race each year.

(Route du Rhum, Brest Atlantic, Jacques Vabre ect.., Artic Vendée??, ect..  ).  With their new foiler configuration  (6 appendice).

After 1 week of race whatever the race was.  All foilers  faced major damage. (ama, rudder, or daggerboard...) and were forced to abandon or to make a pit stop.

Some cross the Atlantic (Macif, Gitana) but would have faced uncapacity to continue race for a 35 days Jules Verne.

In Brest Atlantic. Foilers finish the race but  (Gitana, Macif) made 1 or 2 pit stop to fix appendice issue and Sodebo DNF.

All issues were more or less linked  around hitting at high speed (above 30 knots) an UFO Undetermined Floating Object (Whale, Container,...).

This issue made the probability for an Ultim to finish successfully a Jules Vernes ,  low very low or un-existing.

The 2020 attempt on Jules Vernes , abandon for Sodebo and Gitana with rudder issue. (During the last 2 month) show it.

First, they should improve detection system (sonar, IR Camera ...) first or invent new one.

Today it's more a lottery than a race to finish a  transat or Jules Verne , I love the Ultim but race  results and  race  are so disappointing... up to now.

 

 

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2 hours ago, oceanwwgg said:

(Sorry for my english)

We must recognize that for the last three years, 3 to 4 Ultim (Gitana17, Macif, Banque Populaire?, Sodebo ..) have compete against each other during 1 or 2 race each year.

(Route du Rhum, Brest Atlantic, Jacques Vabre ect.., Artic Vendée??, ect..  ).  With their new foiler configuration  (6 appendice).

After 1 week of race whatever the race was.  All foilers  faced major damage. (ama, rudder, or daggerboard...) and were forced to abandon or to make a pit stop.

Some cross the Atlantic (Macif, Gitana) but would have faced uncapacity to continue race for a 35 days Jules Verne.

In Brest Atlantic. Foilers finish the race but  (Gitana, Macif) made 1 or 2 pit stop to fix appendice issue and Sodebo DNF.

All issues were more or less linked  around hitting at high speed (above 30 knots) an UFO Undetermined Floating Object (Whale, Container,...).

This issue made the probability for an Ultim to finish successfully a Jules Vernes ,  low very low or un-existing.

The 2020 attempt on Jules Vernes , abandon for Sodebo and Gitana with rudder issue. (During the last 2 month) show it.

First, they should improve detection system (sonar, IR Camera ...) first or invent new one.

Today it's more a lottery than a race to finish a  transat or Jules Verne , I love the Ultim but race  results and  race  are so disappointing... up to now.

 

 

By the same token, foilers have been in the vendee for 2 (or 3?) editions, and the majority still make it around. Sure they're slower, but the point is it's not that rare of a lottery to win

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4 hours ago, oceanwwgg said:

The 2020 attempt on Jules Vernes , abandon for Sodebo and Gitana with rudder issue. (During the last 2 month) show it.

I didn't think either of them hit something (that caused the damage)? And I'm not sure all the failures in Brest Atlantiques were due to hitting things...
Mainly I think we are seeing new types of boats and the actual loads experienced at sea are not fully understood yet so the reliability will get better as the designs improve. These are race boats after all and things never break it means they were built too heavy!

Not sure how well detection technology can get and it makes you wonder at what point they will have to start changing assumptions and design some elaborate "fusing" systems, that would add complexity and weight and somewhat compromise the performance in order to increase the odds of finishing... Maybe even carry spare foils with a method for "quick-change" at sea?

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On behalf of my home country of South Africa, I apologize for the fact that these ocean-race boats keep breaking in our neighborhood.

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I think it's time they started carrying replacement rudders, they seem to be an obvious choice for Ultim's given the failure rate. 

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7 hours ago, TheDragon said:

On behalf of my home country of South Africa, I apologize for the fact that these ocean-race boats keep breaking in our neighborhood.

Thanks ! ;)

And do you think they will be able to make a pit stop in Cape town ? Cammas was saying they were headed there but not sure they would be able to stop due to the COVID situation.

And they don't plan to do a full repair there anyway I think.

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19 hours ago, TPG said:

So far they haven't had the perfect weather window like IDEC had you dunce.

Before pretty much insulting me, just start to try to assimilate what I said...

TPG, Gaucho, and anyone who feels concerned : as you know very well, this type of behavior will not add anything to the discuss (maybe you delude yourself be thinking that is witty... sorry bros it is not the least, absolutely not, except for morons), thus far it’s completely gratuitous.

If this social behavior is your type of thing, leave forums and your damn shitty keyboards and come face to face to act like that, if you have any balls.

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3 hours ago, yl75 said:

Thanks ! ;)

And do you think they will be able to make a pit stop in Cape town ? Cammas was saying they were headed there but not sure they would be able to stop due to the COVID situation.

And they don't plan to do a full repair there anyway I think.

Situation in Cape Town and rest of SA is distressing, so I would not be surprised if they can do something with the rudder at anchor in False Bay or somewhere else reasonably calm they might chose to head back to Europe. Two of my acquaintances in Cape Town have died of Covid in the past few days, but both rather older. Younger friends, as elsewhere, have had it and survived.

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2 hours ago, symbio2 said:

Before pretty much insulting me, just start to try to assimilate what I said...

TPG, Gaucho, and anyone who feels concerned : as you know very well, this type of behavior will not add anything to the discuss (maybe you delude yourself be thinking that is witty... sorry bros it is not the least, absolutely not, except for morons), thus far it’s completely gratuitous.

If this social behavior is your type of thing, leave forums and your damn shitty keyboards and come face to face to act like that, if you have any balls.

What is it with some newbies who come on SA and act like they have all the answers, especially about how to behave on SA? Why not stick around and lurk for a while to learn how this place works before getting all uppity.

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As some noted earlier, they are going to have to duck under the current low and then thread the needle to get north quickly to avoid the next one, unfortunately all on port tack.

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11 hours ago, Airwick said:

 

I didn't think either of them hit something (that caused the damage)? And I'm not sure all the failures in Brest Atlantiques were due to hitting things...
Mainly I think we are seeing new types of boats and the actual loads experienced at sea are not fully understood yet so the reliability will get better as the designs improve. These are race boats after all and things never break it means they were built too heavy!

Not sure how well detection technology can get and it makes you wonder at what point they will have to start changing assumptions and design some elaborate "fusing" systems, that would add complexity and weight and somewhat compromise the performance in order to increase the odds of finishing... Maybe even carry spare foils with a method for "quick-change" at sea?

I have been too quick saying Ultim abandon come from hitting floating objects. More probably true is 60%? abandon due to hitting something, 40%? due to structural failure, who knows...   What a frustration this Ultim Class is, for spectators and for first concerned Crew, Race team, Building and design team and Sponsors.                                                          The attrition rate is high, investments are colossal.

When a sponsor give his go, (ready to spend more or less 40 millions € on 5 years all include). Then start the design process (6-8 months from a top level architect), followed by building process ( more or less 1.5 -2 years), then followed by launch time and test & navigation period (1 to 2 years) where u have to break everything fragile and rebuild it better.  

In best case, (that's the  exact story of Rothschild Gitana 17 launch in spring 2017 ) The team has a competitive & reliable  machine  4 years after the initial go.                                    But all their futur navigation time are still at risk of loosing due to a collision.

I dream to see a race season with 6 or 7 Ultim, coming from different architects and countries. It will be the same for all people engaged in looking at sailing history.                            Reality make this perspective  very difficult. Which investors are ready to start knowing he will see first result only in 3 or 4 years ?

Platform, design-trimming-navigation process are improved  month after month, so we will see less failure coming from these points .                                                                                  But hitting 100 kg of an floating or underwater something at 43 knots is an unsolved issue. I don't know if someone can solve this.

Spare are heavy and difficult to manage at sea. Detection technology are only at their beginning.  Building stronger and heavier doesn't fit with competition.

There are no obvious solutions to come.  Building an attractive race program for Investors, Sponsors and Public with increasing  boat number are key and not at all easy. 

By the way we are lucky,  Multihull race appear in the seventies, Wing mast, canting mast, curve dagger board follow in the nineties, carbon structure improve all the times.                now real flying Foilers,  after fixed rigid sail.  We can't complain... Foiling since 2013 America Cup is a key step.

 

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2 hours ago, TheDragon said:

Situation in Cape Town and rest of SA is distressing, so I would not be surprised if they can do something with the rudder at anchor in False Bay or somewhere else reasonably calm they might chose to head back to Europe. Two of my acquaintances in Cape Town have died of Covid in the past few days, but both rather older. Younger friends, as elsewhere, have had it and survived.

I think either they repair properly or just keep it in the up position and do without it on the way up which should be mostly starboad tack anyway

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13 hours ago, Airwick said:

things never break it means they were built too heavy!

- Ben Lexen, circa 1982. Genius of a man.

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18 hours ago, oceanwwgg said:

First, they should improve detection system (sonar, IR Camera ...) first or invent new one.

This will not be easy. Ocean surface in a storm and going fast is about the hardest environment to operate, sensorwise. Sonar will not work well above cavitation speeds, IR/camera won't see almost anything, radar might, but the resolution is not there yet - though this improves fast with FSD-cars.

Maybe need to think of a new approach. Just-in-time microsatellite highres SAR mapping of the path forward of the boat? Iceye is lauching three more sats just today, and the teams have the money... 24/7 coverage will require a _lot_ of birds.

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13 minutes ago, noaano said:

This will not be easy. Ocean surface in a storm and going fast is about the hardest environment to operate, sensorwise. Sonar will not work well above cavitation speeds, IR/camera won't see almost anything, radar might, but the resolution is not there yet - though this improves fast with FSD-cars.

Maybe need to think of a new approach. Just-in-time microsatellite highres SAR mapping of the path forward of the boat? Iceye is lauching three more sats just today, and the teams have the money... 24/7 coverage will require a _lot_ of birds.

A drone constantly flying a few hundred meters ahead of the boat, with cameras watching the surface underneath it. Control the position of the drone relative to the boat with input from the autopilot, and the gyros on the boat; recalibrate the relative position with some kind of pinging signals, two of them coming from the bow of each ama.

 

 

Yeah, I know... autonomy and all that...

Make it a kite then. Not a spinaker kite, but a kite - kite, on a string, with automatic control surfaces to make it fly in front of the boat...

Easy.;)

 

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19 minutes ago, Laurent said:

A drone constantly flying a few hundred meters ahead of the boat, with cameras watching the surface underneath it. Control the position of the drone relative to the boat with input from the autopilot, and the gyros on the boat; recalibrate the relative position with some kind of pinging signals, two of them coming from the bow of each ama.

 

 

Yeah, I know... autonomy and all that...

Make it a kite then. Not a spinaker kite, but a kite - kite, on a string, with automatic control surfaces to make it fly in front of the boat...

Easy.;)

 

Quoi de plus simple!

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2 hours ago, noaano said:

- Ben Lexen, circa 1982. Genius of a man.

"Any car which holds together for a whole race is too heavy"

Colin Chapman

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1 hour ago, Laurent said:

A drone constantly flying a few hundred meters ahead of the boat, with cameras watching the surface underneath it. Control the position of the drone relative to the boat with input from the autopilot, and the gyros on the boat; recalibrate the relative position with some kind of pinging signals, two of them coming from the bow of each ama.

 

 

Yeah, I know... autonomy and all that...

Make it a kite then. Not a spinaker kite, but a kite - kite, on a string, with automatic control surfaces to make it fly in front of the boat...

Easy.;)

 

There is also option of Superman wearing waterproof helmet with a real time Gopro linked to  nav station, flying 100 m in front of the boat. How many superman are available ?

For real,  4 or 5 IMOCA  are now competing on the  2020 Vendée Globe and are equipped with OSCAR system (UFO Detection system) . 2 engineers coming from car industry have adapt Infrared? walkers detection system from car to sailboat with a camera at the top of the mast.

 By I.A  each system build his own knowledge database system , concerning dangerous forms whale ect..  and give collision alerts to the skipper. At the end each knowledge database are mixed from worldwide user's to improve form recognition. (https://www.oscar-navigation.com/fr/index.php/racing-series/)

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2 hours ago, Laurent said:

A drone constantly flying a few hundred meters ahead of the boat, with cameras watching the surface underneath it. Control the position of the drone relative to the boat with input from the autopilot, and the gyros on the boat; recalibrate the relative position with some kind of pinging signals, two of them coming from the bow of each ama.

 

 

Yeah, I know... autonomy and all that...

Make it a kite then. Not a spinaker kite, but a kite - kite, on a string, with automatic control surfaces to make it fly in front of the boat...

Easy.;)

 

You mean like this?  Kite44.thumb.JPG.a1e3673e1051b10ad5e8e903623410e2.JPG

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6 hours ago, oceanwwgg said:

There is also option of Superman wearing waterproof helmet with a real time Gopro linked to  nav station, flying 100 m in front of the boat. How many superman are available ?

For real,  4 or 5 IMOCA  are now competing on the  2020 Vendée Globe and are equipped with OSCAR system (UFO Detection system) . 2 engineers coming from car industry have adapt Infrared? walkers detection system from car to sailboat with a camera at the top of the mast.

 By I.A  each system build his own knowledge database system , concerning dangerous forms whale ect..  and give collision alerts to the skipper. At the end each knowledge database are mixed from worldwide user's to improve form recognition. (https://www.oscar-navigation.com/fr/index.php/racing-series/)

I like your option better.

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I don't see cameras seeing that well when it matters. Radar evolution is the key, me thinks.

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6 hours ago, noaano said:

 

I don't see cameras seeing that well when it matters. Radar evolution is the key, me thinks.

Never thought i would see a Scott Manley video posted on SA ! ^^

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Skipping Cape Town and heading home?

 

Screen Shot 2021-01-25 at 9.04.28 AM.png

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On 1/23/2021 at 2:34 PM, Geff said:

You mean like this?  Kite44.thumb.JPG.a1e3673e1051b10ad5e8e903623410e2.JPG

Now there is a memory......:-)

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What a fckin sht show, eh?  Oh well...live and learn.

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On 1/23/2021 at 12:51 PM, oceanwwgg said:

There is also option of Superman wearing waterproof helmet with a real time Gopro linked to  nav station, flying 100 m in front of the boat. How many superman are available ?

Totally unfeasible, not enough supermen (and women) available so the pay scale would make it prohibitively expensive. I think we should train bow wave riding dolphins to use their echolocation to warn of UFO's. They'll work for peanuts, or rather mackerel! Much more feasible and less costly. 

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On 1/23/2021 at 10:37 AM, oceanwwgg said:

...Spare are heavy and difficult to manage at sea. Detection technology are only at their beginning.  Building stronger and heavier doesn't fit with competition.
 

If Pip Hare can singlehandedly replace a rudder in the Southern Ocean, I think a full crew could accomplish the same on Gitana. In fact, it should be a contingency plan.

Seems silly to not have a spare rudder on such an expensive globe-trotting machine, especially given the recent experiences of so many others...

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Replacing it might depend on how the rudder is configured. Transom mounts might be easier than under-counter.  According to the team report they don't think they hit anything, so the problem may be something in the construction.  They're likely to examine the damaged piece carefully to make sure it doesn't happen again next time.

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Also it is bit pointless to compare a non foiling and a foiling rudder.

The loads involved and construction are and must be very different.

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I'm saying: it seems foolish to not carry a spare on such a well-funded platform being sailed around the globe.

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3 hours ago, heymatey said:

I'm saying: it seems foolish to not carry a spare on such a well-funded platform being sailed around the globe.

The guys involved in these record attempts are among the leading experts in the world in this sort of stuff, that is why they are in the teams.  You should realise that every single aspect is examined in depth, they do not make spur of the moment decisions based on the back of a beer mat calcs.  In order to change a rudder they would need to sail into an area of flat water, this alone would probably put them outside the record time.  In addition, the extra weight, and difficulty in finding space in a tri with limited internal space would also make this not viable.

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They already had 3 rudders at the beginning of the record attempt. If they could drop off the damaged one, and lift it up on the boat by some halyard, the central one should be large enough for steering. What is missing is the upwards lift from the leeward aft corner, limiting the ability to foil. Or use the remaining setup for foiling similar to what AC75 class boats do, one main foil leeward of center of gravity and one rudderfoil at centerline, and in addition one extra foil as a mainhull T-foil-daggerboard. Alternatively the aft part of the ama would effectively become a planning surface and the performance level drop to similar level than IDEC had. Now if there is/was also a significan't leak to aft compartment inside the ama in question, that would obviously make it slower than IDEC resulting no chance to break the record. But the basic redundancy is definitely designed in already and the central rudder could be called a spare for the leeward one, even though that is not it's only, or most important function. There was no need to call outside assistance, and definitely not a mayday, as they were already well prepared for a possibility of such breakages.

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Quote

In fact, the question about a spare part has been raised on several occasions following the announcement of the team’s abandon. As such, it’s important to respond to this issue: “It’s worth noting that a rudder weighs around 200 kg and assembling or dismantling such a part requires a special procedure, up to three people and a support rib, and that is when the boat’s in a port and without heavy seas… Offshore, the crew does not have the necessary tooling and, above all, it is not able to access the area in question, which is a long way aft and is protected by the rudder ‘chimneys’”, explained Sébastien Sainson, the director of Gitana’s design office.

http://www.gitana-team.com/en/actu/1300/the_maxi_edmond_de_rothschild_homeward_bound

Well that explains why they don't carry a spare...

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38 minutes ago, vokstar said:

Well that explains why they don't carry a spare...

Yeah, to make replacement at sea possible, it would have to be taken into account in the design, which is what I meant by making some performance tradeoffs in order to accommodate that. However if they didn't even hit anything it's a moot point, you would only consider doing this if it was becoming unlikely to make it all the way around without hitting something.

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Pretty moonlight sail drone vid

 

Quote

Yesterday, the Maxi Edmond de Rothschild, on a delivery trip back to her port of registry in Lorient since the end of her Jules Verne Trophy attempt, made her return to the northern hemisphere. Yann Riou made the most of the opportunity for one of the fabulous drone flights he has such a knack for. The images, under tropical latitudes, are an invitation for voyage and escape to round off what has been a very hectic weekend across the whole of France.

 

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What a magnificent beast, and what a thrill it must be to sail her!

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Agree. The smooth fast gliding really  impresses. 

Not to take anything away form the VG and AC, but such a contrast to Dean Barker being shaken at the wheel, or the VG vids where the skippers are lurching.

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Right on!  I watched awestruck.

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For a crippled ship she's not doing badly. Averaged 24 knots for the last 24 hours and will be home later today or early tomorrow.

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6 minutes ago, TheDragon said:

For a crippled ship she's not doing badly. Averaged 24 knots for the last 24 hours and will be home later today or early tomorrow.

Truly remarkable. And with no ribs broken, battered, and bruised like the 3 or more VG  sailors (Sam, JLC, Romain, . . .)

Hope the next VG boats can works towards as smooth and comfortable a glide as Gitana

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On 1/31/2021 at 11:36 PM, stief said:

Agree. The smooth fast gliding really  impresses. 

Not to take anything away form the VG and AC, but such a contrast to Dean Barker being shaken at the wheel, or the VG vids where the skippers are lurching.

The ride in the AC boats is rather smooth as well, in below interview (in french), Davy Moyon mentions that the ride in the RIBs following them is much harder.. :

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/regate/coupe-de-l-america/video-america-s-cup-davy-moyon-on-ne-peut-pas-naviguer-si-l-electronique-ne-fonctionne-pas-b0527bde-5efc-11eb-8fd5-8b49da1526e6

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11 minutes ago, yl75 said:

The ride in the AC boats is rather smooth as well, in below interview (in french), Davy Moyon mentions that the ride in the RIBs following them is much harder.. :

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/regate/coupe-de-l-america/video-america-s-cup-davy-moyon-on-ne-peut-pas-naviguer-si-l-electronique-ne-fonctionne-pas-b0527bde-5efc-11eb-8fd5-8b49da1526e6

Thanks for that link (couldn't access trans option; no big deal). Yes, the little I saw of the Prada cup did show a remarkable ride too. Never thought I'd see a big monohull foiling so smoothly, and wondered then how long that tech wold take to trickle down to monohull sailing at local club levels. From Hydroptère to the AC--40 years? 

Not in my lifetime, I expect. Guess I'd better get a foiling kiteboard in the meantime.:P

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9 hours ago, stief said:

Thanks for that link (couldn't access trans option; no big deal). Yes, the little I saw of the Prada cup did show a remarkable ride too. Never thought I'd see a big monohull foiling so smoothly, and wondered then how long that tech wold take to trickle down to monohull sailing at local club levels. From Hydroptère to the AC--40 years? 

Not in my lifetime, I expect. Guess I'd better get a foiling kiteboard in the meantime.:P

Go for it Stief! I started kiting at age 50, and foiling at age 63. I’m still struggling with flying gybes, let alone moving my feet around, or tacking, but it is great fun in light to medium winds.

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34 minutes ago, TheDragon said:

Go for it Stief! I started kiting at age 50, and foiling at age 63. I’m still struggling with flying gybes, let alone moving my feet around, or tacking, but it is great fun in light to medium winds.

Hmmm. Tempted, very tempted to try-- kite skiing? Might be a way to use up the winters when the water is mostly blown into rows of snowdrifts. Thanks for the goading.

Already imagining gliding down the lake in the moonlight like Gitana, with the skis like the hulls going over the rows of drifted waves. . ..  could set some 80 nm runs. Even more tempting. 

(Masking/ visor---no problem. Just have to figure on windchills of -35ºC going upwind. . . ;) )

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I found it easier to learn on a frozen lake and field with a beat up snowboard,  than initially on the soft water.  The smaller kite, etc. made the transition better for me.   And yeah,  those moon lit cold nights are memorable. 

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35 minutes ago, Geff said:

I found it easier to learn on a frozen lake and field with a beat up snowboard,  than initially on the soft water.  The smaller kite, etc. made the transition better for me.   And yeah,  those moon lit cold nights are memorable. 

Sold! Ever gone uphill? A cheap sailor looking to avoid lift ticket prices wants to know 

Though will probably start off like this, only colder. (Cred Annalise of VOR -- Dee Caffari's TTOP)

https://twitter.com/Annalise_Murphy/status/1358197944806232070?s=20

/end OT.

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