climenuts

Anchoring in "Private Water lot" BC Gulf Islands

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I am anchored out in Boat Harbour just south of Dodd Narrows and the marina here has put all kinds of no anchoring buoys in a 200m radius around the Marina. It says "Private Waterlot" on the buoys.

My understanding was foreshore and waterways were fair game unless it's an aerodrome or a channel of some kind. I can't find anything online regarding this kind of "Private Waterlot" other than the marina's website. http://boatharbourmarina.ca/anchoring.html

Is this Marina actually authorized to do this or is it some kind of bluff? I'm anchored outside of the buoys but would much rather have been in shallower water.

 

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2 minutes ago, mayday12 said:

meh, drop the hook where you want - what are they going to do? 

They claim to be able to relocate a vessel at your expense.

Wondering if this threat is real or if they're just entitled twats who went and bought some buoys.

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This was a petition to try to stop this from happening. It explains the origin of the private water lot.

https://www.change.org/p/bill-veenhof-shaw-ca-env-minister-gov-bc-ca-minister-transportation-gov-bc-ca-stop-the-destruction-of-our-natural-coastline

"The developer is emboldened by his ownership of a 'private water lot' granted by the Crown to facilitate the export of coal which hasn't happened at this location for over 100 years."

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27 minutes ago, Quilbilly said:

This was a petition to try to stop this from happening. It explains the origin of the private water lot.

https://www.change.org/p/bill-veenhof-shaw-ca-env-minister-gov-bc-ca-minister-transportation-gov-bc-ca-stop-the-destruction-of-our-natural-coastline

"The developer is emboldened by his ownership of a 'private water lot' granted by the Crown to facilitate the export of coal which hasn't happened at this location for over 100 years."

So tell them that when the coal barge pulls up you'll move.

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I know of a marina that did this because people kept anchoring so close to the slips you couldn't get into them sometimes. It is bullshit legally, but it did generally keep people from anchoring close enough to block the way.

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Why do you want to anchor so close to a marina? 

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2 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Why do you want to anchor so close to a marina? 

200 meters is about 600 feet, which is a pretty big area. In a narrow creek this could be a pain. The marina I know of was pissed that boats were within about 50 feet or sometimes less of the slips.

 

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32 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

200 meters is about 600 feet, which is a pretty big area. In a narrow creek this could be a pain. The marina I know of was pissed that boats were within about 50 feet or sometimes less of the slips.

 

Sorry, I meant the OP. 

50' is a boatlength. Who wants to anchor within a boatlength of a marina?

I know a marina where the owners have problems with people anchoring just outside their mooring field, then using their dinghy dock to use their private dumpster, restrooms, showers and laundry, all of which are free to customers. Or they swing in, tie up, dump trash, take on water, and scoot without ever buying anything in the store or offering any compensation to the marina owners. I've seen people get offended when told "we charge $5 for water and $2/bag for trash for non-customers". 

Marinas are businesses sitting on valuable waterfront property. For a lot of them, the cash flow is not great. It's not cool to try and use their amenities without paying. 

Different issue, I know. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Sorry, I meant the OP. 

50' is a boatlength. Who wants to anchor within a boatlength of a marina?

I know a marina where the owners have problems with people anchoring just outside their mooring field, then using their dinghy dock to use their private dumpster, restrooms, showers and laundry, all of which are free to customers. Or they swing in, tie up, dump trash, take on water, and scoot without ever buying anything in the store or offering any compensation to the marina owners. I've seen people get offended when told "we charge $5 for water and $2/bag for trash for non-customers". 

Marinas are businesses sitting on valuable waterfront property. For a lot of them, the cash flow is not great. It's not cool to try and use their amenities without paying. 

Different issue, I know. 

 

I have paid $20/day to use a dinghy dock, showers, bikes, and pool while anchored near a marina and it was well worth it, I hope no one expects all that for free.

Worst nightmare for a marina - a sailboat pulls up to the fuel dock, takes on 300 gallons of water, dumps trash, and then buys 4 gallons of diesel while a bunch of powerboats trying to buy 500 gallons of fuel each circle around.

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18 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Sorry, I meant the OP. 

50' is a boatlength. Who wants to anchor within a boatlength of a marina?

I know a marina where the owners have problems with people anchoring just outside their mooring field, then using their dinghy dock to use their private dumpster, restrooms, showers and laundry, all of which are free to customers. Or they swing in, tie up, dump trash, take on water, and scoot without ever buying anything in the store or offering any compensation to the marina owners. I've seen people get offended when told "we charge $5 for water and $2/bag for trash for non-customers". 

Marinas are businesses sitting on valuable waterfront property. For a lot of them, the cash flow is not great. It's not cool to try and use their amenities without paying. 

Different issue, I know. 

 

I am 50 feet from the no anchoring buoys on the end of my rode. The anchoring buoys are minimum 600ft from the marina but basically block the entire bay. See screenshot with shitty markup of the buoys.

I have no problem leaving room for the marina not am I freeloading on their facilities. I am just dropping the hook for the night because I missed slack at Dodd.

Capture+_2020-09-16-08-01-16.png

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

a sailboat pulls up to the fuel dock, takes on 300 gallons of water, dumps trash, and then buys 4 gallons of diesel while a bunch of powerboats trying to buy 500 gallons of fuel each circle around.

It me

 

(In reality I usually get 15-20 gallons of gas, which is a slightly bigger purchase, but still chump change compared to Smokey Belcher and his floating diesel pot, which might suck a couple hundred gallons in one go - that said, it obviously comes with the game of operating a public accommodation - serving cheapskates like me is the price you pay to serve the big spenders)

Edited by Breamerly
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29 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

If I lived around there those buoys would move about 50 feet closer to the marina about once a week ;)

All I'll say - since given my whole thread on this kind of thing, I'm pretty sure everyone knows my stance - is that a battery powered angle grinder will go through a 3/8" chain link in just over thirty seconds. 

Don't ask how I know.

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38 minutes ago, Breamerly said:

All I'll say - since given my whole thread on this kind of thing, I'm pretty sure everyone knows my stance - is that a battery powered angle grinder will go through a 3/8" chain link in just over thirty seconds. 

Don't ask how I know.

If the buoys vanish, they'll just get replaced. If they s-l-o-w-l-y creep a bit closer every week or two, the marina might not notice they lost about half their private preserve ;)

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I wonder if the marina considered a mooring field, since they're reserving the whole bay anyway. Considered how busy Pirate's and DeCourcey Island get, I'd image there would be a demand. Not that I would personally prefer a mooring field - but if this 'private water lot' ownership allows the marina to prevent anchoring, moorings might at least reduce some of the crowding in nearby anchorages..

 

I doubt they'd actually relocate a vessel without notice (and if you were onboard, I'd imagine you'd be able to put up enough of a fit to prevent it). Do they have any authority to ticket/fine a boat?

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Next time I am in the area I'll anchor within the buoys just to be a shit disturber.

I find it hilarious that an operating mill in Ladysmith can't move derelict boats anchored directly in the way of their logging operations but this marina thinks they have a magic bullet.

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25 minutes ago, climenuts said:

Next time I am in the area I'll anchor within the buoys just to be a shit disturber.

I find it hilarious that an operating mill in Ladysmith can't move derelict boats anchored directly in the way of their logging operations but this marina thinks they have a magic bullet.

Yeah, that’s bullshit.

Unfortunately, probably, or maybe indicative of the one of the problems on the BC coast - anchorages near cities where people leave derelict boats to die, or some people who can’t or don’t want to afford housing live aboard and create problems, or the perception of problems in the eyes of those ashore.  Complex problem - “fixed” with “solutions” like that you’re describing...

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It's a bullshiit claim. Read their claim carefully.

"Only registered permit holders may anchor their vessels, besides anchoring incidental to navigation, such as during an emergency or bad weather."

The "such as during an emergency..."  is their bullshit addition."  They are trying to suggest anchoring incidental to navigation is only during an emergency or bad weather.

Your anchoring incidental to navigation is what you choose as long as it's not unreasonably long.  Anchoring is part of navigation. 

 

The court decision - the City of Victoria passed a Bylaw regulating the Gorge Waterway. It said the city was NOT trying to prevent anchoring, just long term anchoring etc. i.e. derelict boats or permanent anchoring there.

From the decision "in this case the Bylaw does not purport to regulate or restrict the temporary moorage of vessels. Instead, the 2016 amendments to the Bylaw were made to ensure that the Bylaw was compliant with the West Kelowna decision. The Bylaw does, however, prohibit the construction, for example, of docks and the long-term anchorage and/or moorage of boats in the Gorge Waterway.

https://www.victoria.ca/assets/City~Hall/Media~Releases/2018/2018Mar5_MR2_Judge Voith, re The Corporation of the City of Victoria v. Zimmerman, 03....pdf

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I think it is pretty crappy of the marina to try and stake out such a large no anchoring zone.  A small buffer zone off their docks I can see, but what they've done is excessive, IMO.  

That's a lot of prime anchoring real estate put off limits for no real reason. 

If that were my place, I'd put in a nice restaurant, fill that area with moorings and offer free launch service until 10 PM. 

 

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@Zonker How about Mark Bay where they don't let you anchor within the mooring field? Asking for a friend...

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Mark Bay is part of the NewCastle Island Marine Park so that is why anchoring is not allowed. That's a legal reason.

  • We are trying to protect the sensitive ecological values of the sea bed from dragging anchors. For this reason, the use of anchors in Mark Bay is not permitted in order to allow for the recovery of sub tidal and inter-tidal marine life in the bay, and to better prevent boats from washing ashore. Please use the mooring buoys available and make sure your boat is safely secured to them."

Park Boundary. So anchor outside the boundary. It's not that hard to avoid.

image.thumb.png.4c2fd7d0d3dcb826d8067bfa4f9fe27e.png

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That's place was tough, we got yelled at about three times.  You only have a tiny amount of room between the moorings and the power cables.  All in all they were super nice though just had to move a bit and expect someone to drop the hook right on top of you, price of hanging in a nice spot I guess.

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I sure wish we could have a cruiser deal with prices on water and trash dump. I'd much rather pay than beg.

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Here is an article that explores the broader issues of derelict boats on the BC coast and the economic and social issues around them...which may have something to do with people who have economic interests in certain bays that attract boats wanting to try to restrict anchoring (by fair means or foul, as in this case with the questionable buoys and warning of removal).  It’s an issue that my own community has dealt with where I live (and keep my boat!).

Very interesting and insightful article (and it mentions Newcastle Marina in Nanaimo, among other places):  https://cortescurrents.ca/vessels-of-concern-signs-of-the-times/

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8 hours ago, climenuts said:

... because I missed slack at Dodd.

 

If your boat can power just a little faster than the current against you, you can get through Dodd quite quickly when the current is against you using the backeddies.  It is relatively safe to do this in Dodd because there are no rocks near the shore to avoid. 

It is conventional thought that you should only go through Dodd at slack, and for many people that is true.  If you would like instructions on how to get through in both directions when the current is against you, PM me.

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1 minute ago, Rain Man said:

If your boat can power just a little faster than the current against you, you can get through Dodd quite quickly when the current is against you using the backeddies.  It is relatively safe to do this in Dodd because there are no rocks near the shore to avoid. 

It is conventional thought that you should only go through Dodd at slack, and for many people that is true.  If you would like instructions on how to get through in both directions when the current is against you, PM me.

Just post it here, I'd like to know too.

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47 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Just post it here, I'd like to know too.

Sounds pretty dodgy to go against the slack at Dodd in a sailboat if, say, a tug and tow starts coming through the other way *with* the current...

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51 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Sounds pretty dodgy to go against the slack at Dodd in a sailboat if, say, a tug and tow starts coming through the other way *with* the current...

Yes, but they talk on the radio thingy with lots of notice. It's the guy in the black 60' Searay that will fuck you up.

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22 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Yes, but they talk on the radio thingy with lots of notice. It's the guy in the black 60' Searay that will fuck you up.

Full throttle, autopilot engaged, fog, radar off.

I almost got killed in the Strait of Juan de Fuca by one of those assholes.

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I paddled through Gabriola Pass in a sea kayak when it was running against me at 6 knots. Not too hard to hug the shore and use the eddies. Until I turned around I had no idea how strong it really was!

 

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WA State's derelict program should be a model for BC to follow:

https://www.dnr.wa.gov/publications/aq_derelict_vessel_broch.pdf?x19euv&44z7d5#:~:text=The Derelict Vessel Removal Program has three main responsibilities associated,up to 200 feet long.&text=abandoned vessels found in Washington,safety highest on the list.

$3/year when you renew your registration. $5 of the annual visitor fee + $1/ft for commercial vessels/year is the main source of funding. I wouldn't mind paying $3 or 5 to help dispose of dead boats that otherwise clutter beaches, coves and anchorages.

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4 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Just post it here, I'd like to know too.

It is pretty straightforward.  You should be able to get through as long as your boatspeed at least matches the current speed.  In all cases make sure you have a backup plan in case the engine quits.  I would not recommend doing the following if the current is over 7 knots, even if your boat is faster, because of the potential for whirlpools.

All these options describe getting through against the current.  A lot of people are hesitant to go through with the current.  I have a video I posted in another thread of a small sailboat going through with an 8 knot flood.  If you stay in the middle of the current and avoid the whirlpools you can go through with the current even when it is honking.

Ebb (current going South)

Hug the west shore of Mudge Island - initially not that close, but much closer as you near the narrow part of the pass.  The backeddy will become more and more obvious - don't be surprised if the backeddy add 2 kts or more to your speed over the bottom.  If you look at the chart there are no outlying rocks against the shore.  Pay attention because the boat has a tendency to be sucked toward the shore in the last part of the backeddy.

The backeddy forms a "V" shape with the point of the "V" just to the south of the narrowest part of the pass.  When you reach the end of the backeddy you will be within 30-40' of shore.  Firewall the throttle before you head out into the main current in enough time that the boat has reached its maximum speed before crossing into the main current.  Once in the main current cross over to the Vancouver Island shore to within a couple of boatlengths.  Again, there are no outlying rocks.  Watch your progress against the shore - the current comes in pulses, and you will notice that you are making slow progress through the pass.  Once through, head over to the Gabriola Island shore for some current relief.

I did this just the other day in my 6.5 knot cruising boat against a 4.5 knot current.  It was easy.

Flood (current going North)

Approach the pass on the west side of it staying out of the main current.  Hug the shore on the Vancouver Island side as you enter the pass - there is a strong backeddy there.  Firewall the throttle before you enter the main current.  Once in the main current stay as close to the Vancouver Island side as you dare.  There are no rocks to worry about other than the shore itself.  Eventually you will get through unless your boatspeed is less than the current speed.  Be patient, the current comes in pulses, and even if you lose a little ground initially you might still get through.

In either case the strong current part of the pass is only about 50 m long.  Once you are past that you are golden.

Always watch for stray logs and big powerboat idiots going through at 25 knots with a 5 foot wake.  Pay attention - a small error on the helm can put you on the shore if you are not carefully monitoring your lateral distance.

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On 9/16/2020 at 4:50 PM, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Here is an article that explores the broader issues of derelict boats on the BC coast and the economic and social issues around them...which may have something to do with people who have economic interests in certain bays that attract boats wanting to try to restrict anchoring (by fair means or foul, as in this case with the questionable buoys and warning of removal).  It’s an issue that my own community has dealt with where I live (and keep my boat!).

Very interesting and insightful article (and it mentions Newcastle Marina in Nanaimo, among other places):  https://cortescurrents.ca/vessels-of-concern-signs-of-the-times/

The one beef I have with that article is; he blames gentrification for the 'get rid of the live aboard movement", and that is not entirely correct.  As the number of live aboards increased, so did their impact on the places they were moored.  How many of the live aboards anchored out in False Creek or the bays of the Gulf Islands do you think have holding tanks that they either empty at shoreside pump out stations or go out to the middle of the strait to pump out?

The other issue we seem to be struggling with in BC is jurisdiction.  Many people will argue that the City of Vancouver does not have the authority to limit anchoring in False Creek, and the same argument was made in Port Moody recently.  In the islands, it's even more murky, as the governing power of the Island's Trust is not always clear, and some islands are also under City governance (eg Gabriola is part of the Regional District of Nanaimo), or have their own local government.  So, figuring out who has authority to set rules for anchoring etc, and for declaring vessels derelict, and then to take care of removal (ie pay for it), is difficult.  There has been a concerted effort lately, and it is starting to bear fruit, but its a long road.

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In Vancouver, it took an act of Federal Parliament to allow Vancouver to regulate anchoring in False Creek.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-2008-120/FullText.html  (section 14)

I think Port Moody passed a bylaw, but not sure if it would stand up to a court challenge. And they charge you ~$14/night for anchoring. I suspect the derelict boats there just moved on. They only sold 64 permits last year.

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On 9/16/2020 at 4:51 PM, Rain Man said:

If your boat can power just a little faster than the current against you, you can get through Dodd quite quickly when the current is against you using the backeddies.  It is relatively safe to do this in Dodd because there are no rocks near the shore to avoid. 

It is conventional thought that you should only go through Dodd at slack, and for many people that is true.  If you would like instructions on how to get through in both directions when the current is against you, PM me.

Thanks, I've gone through against the tide a few times and know it's not an issue. I didn't have to be in Nanaimo until 3pm the following day so I decided to limp along under sail, try a new spot, and go through with a favourable current.

Did my adventurous bit by sneaking through between Secretary and Wallace to get to Porlier from Princess. Fun little bit of pilotage sneaking through the shoals.



 

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In the 60s and 70s I spent weeks exploring & camping on deserted South Secretary Island.  Roamed those shoals on a 20' trimaran log raft I made on the beach, complete with a 5 hp outboard & ~9" draft.  Truly Robinson Crusoe feeling.  Thanks for jogging those memories.  It came up for sale some years ago and if I were a Canuck, I'd have seriously considered it.  I think its owned by a group with common-use building(s) on it now.

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On 9/16/2020 at 8:12 PM, Zonker said:

WA State's derelict program should be a model for BC to follow:

https://www.dnr.wa.gov/publications/aq_derelict_vessel_broch.pdf?x19euv&44z7d5#:~:text=The Derelict Vessel Removal Program has three main responsibilities associated,up to 200 feet long.&text=abandoned vessels found in Washington,safety highest on the list.

$3/year when you renew your registration. $5 of the annual visitor fee + $1/ft for commercial vessels/year is the main source of funding. I wouldn't mind paying $3 or 5 to help dispose of dead boats that otherwise clutter beaches, coves and anchorages.

Bit of a thread hijack but we're doing the same thing with derelict rv's as well, 6.00. The concern over how much of the money actually makes it to the appropriate programs is a topic for PA.

 

WL

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2 hours ago, White Lightning2 said:

Bit of a thread hijack but we're doing the same thing with derelict rv's as well, 6.00. The concern over how much of the money actually makes it to the appropriate programs is a topic for PA.

 

WL

You could combine the programs and load up the derelict boats with derelict RV's and sink them all at once.

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How about making a breakwater out of them?  Still involves sinking them all at once but put to a useful purpose.  Might be kinda cool to see the RV's and boats lined up, not sure if vertical or horizontal installation would be most "attractive".

 

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