Alaris

Do split rigs still have a place with modern sail handling systems?

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24 minutes ago, DDW said:

That depends on the slope of their lift curves, not their static loading

Right, that's why I said "typically required"... I guess what I am saying is that it's a lot trickier to achieve stability with a lifting tail/weather helm and the equilibrium is more "fragile". Gliders are designed for peak efficiency and operate in a (relatively) narrow speed and loading range so it makes sense there but the vast majority of airplanes out there use negative lift on the tail.

In practice there may be certain cases where you might be able to achieve stability with weather helm but it will only work under narrow specific conditions. If a gust or a wake disturb things enough you are a lot more likely to get gybing or rounding up than if setup with lee helm to start with. As a side note, fine tuning balance is a lot easier with a spit rig so it should be easier to achieve stability with weather helm on a ketch than a sloop!

I wonder why there are almost no boats with the rudder up front... Obviously it's a lot more vulnerable to impacts so that's a good reason not to do it but for inshore race boats that probably wouldn't be a show stopper. I guess if your are going to steer from the back it adds complication and it would handle a bit "weird" compared to other boats. Would be fun to take an old IOR boat, move the keel back a foot or two and stick the rudder in front to see if it stops rounding for no reason!

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14 minutes ago, Airwick said:

I wonder why there are almost no boats with the rudder up front

Tiller would be on the fore-deck. Helm would get wet and couldn't pretend not to hear bowthing's comments. Unsupervised main-trimmer would wander off with pit-person for beers? Rudder might get more air time than ideal.

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21 minutes ago, Airwick said:

Right, that's why I said "typically required"... I guess what I am saying is that it's a lot trickier to achieve stability with a lifting tail/weather helm and the equilibrium is more "fragile". Gliders are designed for peak efficiency and operate in a (relatively) narrow speed and loading range so it makes sense there but the vast majority of airplanes out there use negative lift on the tail.

Not really. Stability is achieved by the difference in lift slope of the surfaces, and is similar for lifting and non-lifting tails in many if not most situations. Generally it just means that the AOA of the tail is less than the AOA of the wing.  If you require extreme stability then that difference has to be large and the tail AOA may go negative at cruise speeds (or the tail must be larger, or the boom longer). If you look at 50 year old designs then you will find more negative lift tails. And I will grant you that most of the light airplanes out there are 50 year old designs. 

Racing gliders must be efficient over a much larger speed range than other aircraft. A powered aircraft needs only to be efficient around its designed cruise speed. Gliders must be efficient at thermalling speeds which are near stall, and at high speeds cruising between thermals, at 2x or 3x stall speed. This is a much wider range than required of power planes. Racing gliders also carry water ballast, so the range of wing loadings is from about 7 lbs/sq ft to as much as 13 when fully ballasted (pilot might weigh 170 lbs, glider might carry 400 lbs of water ballast). That is as large a range as light aircraft. 

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3 hours ago, DDW said:

Not really. Stability is achieved by the difference in lift slope of the surfaces, and is similar for lifting and non-lifting tails in many if not most situations. Generally it just means that the AOA of the tail is less than the AOA of the wing.  If you require extreme stability then that difference has to be large and the tail AOA may go negative at cruise speeds (or the tail must be larger, or the boom longer). If you look at 50 year old designs then you will find more negative lift tails. And I will grant you that most of the light airplanes out there are 50 year old designs. 

Racing gliders must be efficient over a much larger speed range than other aircraft. A powered aircraft needs only to be efficient around its designed cruise speed. Gliders must be efficient at thermalling speeds which are near stall, and at high speeds cruising between thermals, at 2x or 3x stall speed. This is a much wider range than required of power planes. Racing gliders also carry water ballast, so the range of wing loadings is from about 7 lbs/sq ft to as much as 13 when fully ballasted (pilot might weigh 170 lbs, glider might carry 400 lbs of water ballast). That is as large a range as light aircraft. 

Yes, but it is much harder to get stability this way. Or to put it differently (and more honestly) I can't build a stable model pane with the CG behind the centre of lift of the main wing.

For stability, the plane analogy has its limit as when you are getting overpowered and heel a boat, the propulsion is offset to leeward which then make the boat luff and it turns depower it. That's basically why it is so easy to balance a boat upwind even with weather helm.

Although I agree that the una rig is the most effective rig in theory, I was really disappointed that the big French manufacturers didn't start offering "matin bleu" style twin mast soft wingsails despite buying the intellectual property. IMHO for a cruising boat this has to be one of the best compromise, low centre of effort, no need for a kite, easy to reef short handed, easy to tack, easy to balance the boat (smaller AoA for the rear mast and it becomes nearly self steering)...

image.png.17e65383e41693659b3b5e89c10c5be9.png

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6 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Yes, but it is much harder to get stability this way. Or to put it differently (and more honestly) I can't build a stable model pane with the CG behind the centre of lift of the main wing.

For stability, the plane analogy has its limit as when you are getting overpowered and heel a boat, the propulsion is offset to leeward which then make the boat luff and it turns depower it. That's basically why it is so easy to balance a boat upwind even with weather helm.

Although I agree that the una rig is the most effective rig in theory, I was really disappointed that the big French manufacturers didn't start offering "matin bleu" style twin mast soft wingsails despite buying the intellectual property. IMHO for a cruising boat this has to be one of the best compromise, low centre of effort, no need for a kite, easy to reef short handed, easy to tack, easy to balance the boat (smaller AoA for the rear mast and it becomes nearly self steering)...

True that the greater the difference in AOA between wing and tail, the greater the stability typically. Free flight models have to be very stable, much more so than piloted aircraft, pushing you towards forward CG and negative tailplanes. Production light planes are typically made quite stable to keep from killing the doctors and lawyers than buy them. Sporty light aircraft are made less stable for better handling. Racing sailplanes have closer to minimum stability because of the wide range of speeds and the need to avoid trim drag at higher speeds. It is normal to ballast to move the CG near the aft limit. Most also have full span camber changing flaps, one big benefit is reducing trim drag at speed as removing camber lowers Cm. Average speeds in record attempts are in the 200 kph range these days which implies interthermal speeds of 270 kph.

Boats are much more aero and hydrodynamically complicated than aircraft, in addition to what you mention the underwater hull shape changes with heel and that has usually a stabilizing effect upwind. Nevertheless even catamarans can be made to self steer upwind with weather helm. 

Obviously I am a fan of the unstayed, bald headed rig. Twin masts with schooner like proportions seem to give up significant windward ability, but my boat is probably the upward realistic limit for the una-yawl rig. The main is 90 sq m and really a bit bigger than is convenient to handle. I am not convinced that double luff sails add much performance when compared to a round carbon mast - it looks good in theory but does not seen to carry into practice. According to the Braithwaites, this is due to mast trim requiring more attention than can be reasonably given. 

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4 minutes ago, Tanton Y_M said:

From Junk Rig to E.L.I.A

153SL4-OR30-15.jpg

If I had some cash to "burn", I would already be negotiating the design fee....:rolleyes:

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19 minutes ago, DDW said:

Obviously I am a fan of the unstayed, bald headed rig. Twin masts with schooner like proportions seem to give up significant windward ability, but my boat is probably the upward realistic limit for the una-yawl rig. The main is 90 sq m and really a bit bigger than is convenient to handle. I am not convinced that double luff sails add much performance when compared to a round carbon mast - it looks good in theory but does not seen to carry into practice. According to the Braithwaites, this is due to mast trim requiring more attention than can be reasonably given. 

TBH, I don't have a clear opinion on how much upwind performance you give away by going the schooner way. With enough separation between the 2 masts I only imagine that it can't be that bad to cruising boat standards. Only 2 masted boats I've been on were old gaffers so it is hard for me to determine what was due to the schooner bit and what was due to the cotton sails. To me a schooner sounds like a good all-rounder.

Don't get me wrong I admire your boat and if I had the opportunity to sail her I would literally jump onboard.

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Schooners point, more or less. The big beamy blunt bowed lumber carriers that were converted to charter around here can go to windward to varying degrees. But due to the nature of our sailing grounds here, they can often circumnavigate Penobscot Bay, or parts of the middle, reaching all the way, and back. 

1964792126_FoxIslandsSchoonerHeritage2.jpg.fec25d89ec1a9ba57d6591c331b94de0.jpg

At any rate, the old boats sail a lot more of their miles than all of us in 'modern' counterparts. 

Even though the yawl boat was tied to the stern, and the mate was aboard it - just in case, this one sailed through the Fox Island Thoroughfare. 

61126414_HeritageThoroughfare.jpg.f6d17ff7316b64de02f4ffc6ab310125.jpg

As if to defy everything, most have no keel beyond a 'shoe' (long timber). Slender ones like this Tancook whaler can get to windward pretty smartly. 

1017294450_Tancookwhaler1(1of1).thumb.jpg.19174215e1e4fa262937134c5485c3af.jpg

You can tweek them for another half a knot, like any boat. 

148248661_Tancookwhaler2(1of1).thumb.jpg.6a7354af702613a4ce504b9da2e43cd1.jpg

 

 

 

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Panoramix.

The design fee ought to, not be a problem, if cost of building is not.

153-322slotw-FY06-16.jpg

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3 hours ago, Panoramix said:

TBH, I don't have a clear opinion on how much upwind performance you give away by going the schooner way. With enough separation between the 2 masts I only imagine that it can't be that bad to cruising boat standards. Only 2 masted boats I've been on were old gaffers so it is hard for me to determine what was due to the schooner bit and what was due to the cotton sails. To me a schooner sounds like a good all-rounder.

Don't get me wrong I admire your boat and if I had the opportunity to sail her I would literally jump onboard.

I can judge only by the three occasions when I went against cat schooners or large mizzened cat ketches. Two were large Freedoms with wishbones and fully battened sails, the other was a Nereus. It was not much of a contest in all three cases, but of course one does not know how good the trimmers were. For winds AWA say 50 - 150, I'd imagine it is just a sail area contest. 28 - 50 and 150 - 180 I'm guessing the una is better. In a cruising context sail handling of two equal sized sails has got to be better. But in other aspects (backing down, settling and anchor, heaving to) I suspect the yawl is better. Comes down to how you set your priorities. 

Come on out to California and we will go sailing!

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1 hour ago, Tanton Y_M said:

Panoramix.

The design fee ought to, not be a problem, if cost of building is not.

153-322slotw-FY06-16.jpg

sadly, the cost of building would be an issue...

This one looks like a nice boat to do some "grande croisière".

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48 minutes ago, DDW said:

I can judge only by the three occasions when I went against cat schooners or large mizzened cat ketches. Two were large Freedoms with wishbones and fully battened sails, the other was a Nereus. It was not much of a contest in all three cases, but of course one does not know how good the trimmers were. For winds AWA say 50 - 150, I'd imagine it is just a sail area contest. 28 - 50 and 150 - 180 I'm guessing the una is better. In a cruising context sail handling of two equal sized sails has got to be better. But in other aspects (backing down, settling and anchor, heaving to) I suspect the yawl is better. Comes down to how you set your priorities. 

Come on out to California and we will go sailing!

Thanks that's very kind of you, honestly I wasn't trying to invite myself onboard and California is a bit far away!

May be I've spent too much time on Lasers but dead downwind, I would fear the asymmetry of the Una rig, it makes sailing too exciting in big air! But then again I've have no first hand experience of a proper cruising boat rigged like this, so may be I am extrapolating things wrongly.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

May be I've spent too much time on Lasers but dead downwind, I would fear the asymmetry of the Una rig, it makes sailing too exciting in big air! But then again I've have no first hand experience of a proper cruising boat rigged like this, so may be I am extrapolating things wrongly.

I've not had much misbehavior DDW, my boat doesn't even dip the boom much. Not nearly as exciting as a Laser. I'd think there would be more trouble with a schooner wing and wing, two sides to worry about gybing. I do run wing and wing with the mizzen out the other side DDW, but my mizzen is only a little larger than Laser sized (20 m^2), and has twin sheets so it can't misbehave in any way that worries. When gybing, I don't pay any attention to it at all till everything else is done, then tend to it. I've run DDW in 30-35 knots for days, autopilot steering, never worried. 

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Ketches and yawls are less efficient upwind and running in light and moderate winds. However they are fast reaching with all the sail they can put up with staysails etc. With modern sails it is easier to handle fewer larger sails than multiple smaller sails however, if you have to get it all off in a hurry. Heavy weather running in a ketch is easy as the mast is  generally further forward so the boat handles easily with a prevented main and poked out headsail. Going upwind in a blow with " jib & jigger"  is also not bad, but not as good as a stemhead cutter under staysail & reefed main. The chief advantage of a split rig is it enables better manoeuvrability under sail.  I have managed to sail a 65 ft ketch downwind backwards out of a crowded anchorage by backing the mizzen to each side to steer. It was much easier than I would have believed.

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3 hours ago, kiwin said:

Ketches and yawls are less efficient upwind and running in light and moderate winds. However they are fast reaching with all the sail they can put up with staysails etc. With modern sails it is easier to handle fewer larger sails than multiple smaller sails however, if you have to get it all off in a hurry. Heavy weather running in a ketch is easy as the mast is  generally further forward so the boat handles easily with a prevented main and poked out headsail. Going upwind in a blow with " jib & jigger"  is also not bad, but not as good as a stemhead cutter under staysail & reefed main. The chief advantage of a split rig is it enables better manoeuvrability under sail.  I have managed to sail a 65 ft ketch downwind backwards out of a crowded anchorage by backing the mizzen to each side to steer. It was much easier than I would have believed.

I hope you had a good reason to do such a thing

 

If I was in the firing line I would have moved out of your way

 

I now have first hand experience experience of sailing a ketch

It was a 33 mile ride down the north Sea with 15 to 20mp easterly

Bloody lumpy but boat sailed better than expected

As long as  ican trace the two bucket an hour engine running related leak all will be marvelous

 

 

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Of course I had good reason....firstly it was great fun, secondly we had no engine due to saltwater ingress and the owners 80 year old wife was sick and he wanted to get to Nassau and a doctor.  I trailer the bitter end of the anchor chain off the bow to discourage the bow from blowing off, rigged lines from the end of the mizzen to the secondaries in each side, pulled the mizzen up, anchor up & off we went. It was only about 8 knots of breeze. Frankly it was easier than under power as that thing was long keeled with the prop in an aperture and was underpowered.

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On 10/3/2020 at 2:55 AM, dylan winter said:

I hope you had a good reason to do such a thing

 

If I was in the firing line I would have moved out of your way

I've done this as well, several times. It isn't dangerous, control is better than backing with the engine in many respects. With the mizzen, the boat can be turned with no steerage way, so you can proceed slowly. 

The art of maneuvering under sail is become a lost one - contributed to by sloops which make it difficult. The rise in popularity of sloops alongside reliable diesel auxiliaries is not a coincidence. 

Large sails with modern equipment are easy to handle - until (not unless!) something goes wrong with the modern equipment. It is much easier to manhandle a 600 sq ft sail than a 1000 sq ft sail. 

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Split rigs seem to work for artists

 

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Perhaps a talented musician, but DO NOT GYBE as shown in the first 30 seconds. In more than 5 or 6 knots of wind you will end up with very serious rope burns, if your fingers are still there. Flip the sheet to the new side and let go immediately. I know this for a fact. 

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When you try or, have free standing rigs, there is a very good chance that you do not want anything else. Photo by David L.

Tanton4343D.L.jpg

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YMT, when are you going to put a MkII version of that design into production?

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1 hour ago, Tanton Y_M said:

When you try or, have free standing rigs, there is a very good chance that you do not want anything else. Photo by David L.

Tanton4343D.L.jpg

Beautiful, is this a Tanton 43 ? I think there was one for sale in Normandy a year or so ago.

I don't quite get how you handle the reefing lines. Are these the lines we can distinguish along the wishbone ?  Sorry for the dumb question but the biggest ever wishbone sail I've used was 5.7m2 (windsurf sail I got for getting good marks at my Bac!).

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Pano.

The lines along the wishbones are lazy jacks to receive the sail. Jiffy reefing is the method, you can see the reefing lines on the back of the booms. Tanton 43, about a dozen in Europe; 48 in total built. 

 

Stream.

Hard to get any production going, in the US and elsewhere especially for a totally different concept from the norm.

 - Tanton 43-45 has its own Group on F.B. Made special for owners and interested party. You can also consult my Blog.

- I am presently working on 2 custom projects featuring free standing sailplans, one 50' in aluminum, the other also 50', but in wood.

 

Tanton 43 Siren.jpg

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CC64D403-4608-401B-88E9-978FAFB1E263.thumb.jpeg.1388b76f0568a78c309a0bc0015ff0ec.jpegRed Herring started life as a cat ketch with over rotating masts. It didn’t work very well for a number of reasons, but really needed more sail area.    I moved the main aft 30” and added jibs along with changing almost everything else. Certainly the mizzen doesn’t help a lot beating in normal weather.    They do help keep the bow up once you start reefing and the center of effort of the main and jib moves forward. Job and jigger is a very pleasant sail combination.  I don’t believe in roller furling, so if i’m sailing solo or don’t feel like working, she sails well with just the main and mizzen.  Doesn’t point quite as well, but being able to tack without touching a rope is pretty sweet.  Once you know what you can do with a mizzen, instead of the rudder, they are lots of fun.  And that is the whole point.

SHC

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7 hours ago, Tanton Y_M said:

Pano.

The lines along the wishbones are lazy jacks to receive the sail. Jiffy reefing is the method, you can see the reefing lines on the back of the booms. Tanton 43, about a dozen in Europe; 48 in total built. 

 

Stream.

Hard to get any production going, in the US and elsewhere especially for a totally different concept from the norm.

 - Tanton 43-45 has its own Group on F.B. Made special for owners and interested party. You can also consult my Blog.

- I am presently working on 2 custom projects featuring free standing sailplans, one 50' in aluminum, the other also 50', but in wood.

 

Tanton 43 Siren.jpg

Thanks, YMT. I'm not on FB, but my wife is so I'll hijack her account and check out the group.

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1 hour ago, Steve Clark said:

Red Herring started life as a cat ketch with over rotating masts. It didn’t work very well for a number of reasons, but really needed more sail area.    I moved the main aft 30” and added jibs along with changing almost everything else. Certainly the mizzen doesn’t help a lot beating in normal weather.    They do help keep the bow up once you start reefing and the center of effort of the main and jib moves forward. Job and jigger is a very pleasant sail combination.  I don’t believe in roller furling, so if i’m sailing solo or don’t feel like working, she sails well with just the main and mizzen.  Doesn’t point quite as well, but being able to tack without touching a rope is pretty sweet.  Once you know what you can do with a mizzen, instead of the rudder, they are lots of fun.  And that is the whole point.

SHC

It'd be interesting (to me anyway) to hear why you think it didn't work out. Putting the main that far back would limit the area. Also It looks to me like the mast is large in relation to the chord. But do tell.... PM if not for public consumption.

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13 hours ago, Tanton Y_M said:

Pano.

The lines along the wishbones are lazy jacks to receive the sail. Jiffy reefing is the method, you can see the reefing lines on the back of the booms. Tanton 43, about a dozen in Europe; 48 in total built. 

OK, that's what I am used to on cruising boats and IMHO the best system when shorthanded.

Then, when you have jiffy reefing on a marconi rig, the "tack reefline" comes back to the mast inside the boom (or alongside if it was retrofitted), obviously there is no boom here, so does this line comes back alongside the foot of the sail ? If yes does it not overtighten the sail leech ?

I am just curious, TBH if the day comes when the right planets align and I have the right funds, time and health  to go on a long voyage, I would definitely consider seriously a second hand Tanton 43. I think that being able to ease off the sheets in a squall, crash gybe without too much drama, self tack, reef single-handed without ending with baggy sails and not having to set up kites is invaluable for a husband and wife crew. And this is coming from somebody who would be on the foredeck peeling spinnakers in 20+ knots TWS in his 20's...

It is a shame that people buying new boats are so conservative... A modern medium to light displacement, medium beam, twin keels cat ketch boat would IMHO be much better for people who actually cruise than the cruising boats the big brands sell nowadays.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

OK, that's what I am used to on cruising boats and IMHO the best system when shorthanded.

Then, when you have jiffy reefing on a marconi rig, the "tack reefline" comes back to the mast inside the boom (or alongside if it was retrofitted), obviously there is no boom here, so does this line comes back alongside the foot of the sail ? If yes does it not overtighten the sail leech ?

I know of a Westerly Marine cat ketch that had separate tack and clew lines for the reefs.Three reefs, I think the first and second reef lines were lead aft for the main. One was left up at the mast, but don’t hold me to it. 

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3 hours ago, Panoramix said:

It is a shame that people buying new boats are so conservative... A modern medium to light displacement, medium beam, twin keels cat ketch boat would IMHO be much better for people who actually cruise than the cruising boats the big brands sell nowadays.

Most modern cruising boats are sold by one criterion: accommodation, both inside and out.  That's where all the money and innovation goes.

Big cockpit optimised for parties and lounging, twin wheels to keep a clear passageway to the obligatory swim platform ... and wide open saloon down below for more partying.

When you sell at boat shows to people focused on that stuff, deviation from the norm in rigging and hull shape is just a negative.

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5 hours ago, Panoramix said:

OK, that's what I am used to on cruising boats and IMHO the best system when shorthanded.

Then, when you have jiffy reefing on a marconi rig, the "tack reefline" comes back to the mast inside the boom (or alongside if it was retrofitted), obviously there is no boom here, so does this line comes back alongside the foot of the sail ? If yes does it not overtighten the sail leech ?

 

 

 

On most of them that I have seen (or owned) the clew line dead ends on one arm of the wishbone, goes through the cringle (or clew block), over to the other arm, turns forward either inside or outside that arm, turns down at the mast and then back to the cockpit. Tack line is like a marconi rig. It works well, with one caveat: At each successively deeper reef, the reefed clew ends up higher and further forward than the last, since the wishbone sloped upward forward. A necessary consequence of that is there is a bunt of sail hanging uncontrolled in the lazyjacks. Not too bad on the first and maybe the second, but on the third or fourth reef you have several feet of sail, and a large area of sail, hanging untensioned below the reefed foot. This contributed to the loss of a Nonsuch 33 in the Bermuda race. It is less of a problem with high roach or square head sails, because the leach is more vertical, but square head sails are hard to control correctly with a wishbone (leach tension insufficient). That was a major driver for the the decision on Anomaly to use a conventional boom. On a cat schooner/ketch, as most of the bigger ones seem to be, this is probably less of an issue, as one sail can be dropped completely to reduce area, making deep reefs less useful. 

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8 minutes ago, DDW said:

On most of them that I have seen (or owned) the clew line dead ends on one arm of the wishbone, goes through the cringle (or clew block), over to the other arm, turns forward either inside or outside that arm, turns down at the mast and then back to the cockpit. Tack line is like a marconi rig. It works well, with one caveat: At each successively deeper reef, the reefed clew ends up higher and further forward than the last, since the wishbone sloped upward forward. A necessary consequence of that is there is a bunt of sail hanging uncontrolled in the lazyjacks. Not too bad on the first and maybe the second, but on the third or fourth reef you have several feet of sail, and a large area of sail, hanging untensioned below the reefed foot. This contributed to the loss of a Nonsuch 33 in the Bermuda race. It is less of a problem with high roach or square head sails, because the leach is more vertical, but square head sails are hard to control correctly with a wishbone (leach tension insufficient). That was a major driver for the the decision on Anomaly to use a conventional boom. On a cat schooner/ketch, as most of the bigger ones seem to be, this is probably less of an issue, as one sail can be dropped completely to reduce area, making deep reefs less useful. 

Thanks for the explanation. I just realised that I had mixed up tack and clew....

I can clearly see that the hanging sail would be an issue. May be there is a way to solve this issue with zips like they do on mini 650 jibs.

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10 hours ago, DDW said:

It'd be interesting (to me anyway) to hear why you think it didn't work out. Putting the main that far back would limit the area. Also It looks to me like the mast is large in relation to the chord. But do tell.... PM if not for public consumption.

Are you using the Chesapeake Log Canoe definition of the main? That is calling the mizzen the main as if it was a schooner.  

When Van and David  were programming Red Herring my father thought that since the boat was easily driven to 8-9 knots under power (burning about a 1 gallon/hour) that he would simply fire up the diesel if he wasn’t sailing about that fast.  So there really wasn’t much thought given to light/moderate air sailing.  The rig was even smaller.  Dad admired another L.Francis design, Marco Polo and always thought that the performance under power was an important aspect of auxiliary cruising Yacht design.  He liked to get places without fucking around.

 I perceived the experiment a little differently.  I was focused on developing the sailing performance of the design, and that has been where all my effort has gone.  I still share Van’s enthusiasm for motor sailing, and if there is any wind at all, it is worth about 2 knots and 500 rpm to haul up the main and  mizzen.  That being said, I wanted to see if I could attain the fairly lofty and romantic sailing performance he imagined, and all effort has been spent making the sailing part as efficient as it can be with little care for ease of use.  My aversion to roller furling is windage when the boat is on the mooring.  It can easily blow highway speeds for a f ew hours, and the boat is happier and easier on her ground tackle with minimum windage.  I use hanks, so dropping the jib on deck is alway under control.  If sailing several days in short succession, the sausage bag can be zipped over the sail stopped in the waterways.  All told, I guess I think that performance under sail is the most important criterion of a cruising sailboat.  You have to be able to sail well in all conditions and I am loath to surrender any sailing performance for ease of use or convenience.  Things have to be practical, efficient and achievable by one man, but I’m not going to give away half a knot and 3 degrees of heading without a damn good reason.

The original masts were very heavy, as were the sails that we tried to hoist on them.  It was a total 30 minute shit fight to get the main up.  She had a bolt rope and slot because this was before batt cars and all that.  There weren’t many full battened mainsails in 1980, so no one had invented that stuff yet.  I still use the bolt rope because the sail isn’t that big.  The carbon rig weighs about 300 pounds less than the aluminum, with the consequent improvement in righting moment.  It should also be noted that rotating rigs with narrow should bases are very rare.  This is for the good reason that compression and rotation are not best friends and it’s a challenge to stabilize a rotating mast in buckling, so while I can bristle with innovation with the best of them, I decided to replace the heavy aluminum rotators with the lightest non rotating carbon masts I could get built; book the certifiable righting moment gain and surrender the more speculative aerodynamic improvement.  The result was that I could increase sail area about 300 ft^2 with a 100% jib and maintain a “first reef” threshold of 20 knots apparent?

If you aren’t going to freestand the mast, you have to have enough beam to make the shrouds worthwhile, which means either increasing flare in the bow or moving the rig aft.  If you are referring to the large separation between the main and mizzen, there is a complex relationship which more or less comes down to the further apart you put them the harder the mizzen can work.  In effect you want the wake of the main to fall to leeward of the mizzen. There is CFD available today to study this that wasn’t available in 1979, and I haven’t done much investigation.  It IS very nice not to have sails overhead in the cockpit.  I& I could stand it, a bimini would could be easily fit, but I am my fathers son! He never had cockpit cushions, and neither do I.

i hope that answers your questions. And my wife used to sail with me and our kids.  She also knew that Red Herring was her only choice because of the emotional attachment I have to the boat.  So she made it work.  At 64 with two bad hips she wasn’t having it.  I hope that now the hips are replaced, she might reconsider.

SHC

 

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1 hour ago, Steve Clark said:

my wife used to sail with me and our kids.  She also knew that Red Herring was her only choice because of the emotional attachment I have to the boat.  So she made it work.

She's a stunning boat.  I can see why you have such huge emotional attachment to her

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Thanks, that explains a lot. Boats are the total of their tradeoffs, and one design choice often dictates the rest. A sloop uses the triangle between stem, transom, and truck to hang sail; a cat therefore must be either very light and easily driven or have the mast near the bow. The mast near the bow pushes towards freestanding for the reasons you mention - and has been made considerably more practical by carbon. Then a long sail chord becomes possible, reducing the mast diameter/chord ratio further. 

Unfortunately all of this is in a very primitive state of development compared to a marconi sloop due to the huge inertia in yacht design and buyer acceptance. That is a remarkable boat, but I doubt you'd have many takers at the average boat show. Doesn't sleep 12.

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I am designing a 46' alu ketch for a Hawaiian client right now. Some people just prefer a split rig.

CT 54 chuter.jpg

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Is that a spanker and Spinnaker?  Hard to see in photo looks like two light air head sails.

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On 10/11/2020 at 8:56 AM, Steve Clark said:

Are you using the Chesapeake Log Canoe definition of the main? That is calling the mizzen the main as if it was a schooner.  

When Van and David  were programming Red Herring my father thought that since the boat was easily driven to 8-9 knots under power (burning about a 1 gallon/hour) that he would simply fire up the diesel if he wasn’t sailing about that fast.  So there really wasn’t much thought given to light/moderate air sailing.  The rig was even smaller.  Dad admired another L.Francis design, Marco Polo and always thought that the performance under power was an important aspect of auxiliary cruising Yacht design.  He liked to get places without fucking around.

 I perceived the experiment a little differently.  I was focused on developing the sailing performance of the design, and that has been where all my effort has gone.  I still share Van’s enthusiasm for motor sailing, and if there is any wind at all, it is worth about 2 knots and 500 rpm to haul up the main and  mizzen.  That being said, I wanted to see if I could attain the fairly lofty and romantic sailing performance he imagined, and all effort has been spent making the sailing part as efficient as it can be with little care for ease of use.  My aversion to roller furling is windage when the boat is on the mooring.  It can easily blow highway speeds for a f ew hours, and the boat is happier and easier on her ground tackle with minimum windage.  I use hanks, so dropping the jib on deck is alway under control.  If sailing several days in short succession, the sausage bag can be zipped over the sail stopped in the waterways.  All told, I guess I think that performance under sail is the most important criterion of a cruising sailboat.  You have to be able to sail well in all conditions and I am loath to surrender any sailing performance for ease of use or convenience.  Things have to be practical, efficient and achievable by one man, but I’m not going to give away half a knot and 3 degrees of heading without a damn good reason.

The original masts were very heavy, as were the sails that we tried to hoist on them.  It was a total 30 minute shit fight to get the main up.  She had a bolt rope and slot because this was before batt cars and all that.  There weren’t many full battened mainsails in 1980, so no one had invented that stuff yet.  I still use the bolt rope because the sail isn’t that big.  The carbon rig weighs about 300 pounds less than the aluminum, with the consequent improvement in righting moment.  It should also be noted that rotating rigs with narrow should bases are very rare.  This is for the good reason that compression and rotation are not best friends and it’s a challenge to stabilize a rotating mast in buckling, so while I can bristle with innovation with the best of them, I decided to replace the heavy aluminum rotators with the lightest non rotating carbon masts I could get built; book the certifiable righting moment gain and surrender the more speculative aerodynamic improvement.  The result was that I could increase sail area about 300 ft^2 with a 100% jib and maintain a “first reef” threshold of 20 knots apparent?

If you aren’t going to freestand the mast, you have to have enough beam to make the shrouds worthwhile, which means either increasing flare in the bow or moving the rig aft.  If you are referring to the large separation between the main and mizzen, there is a complex relationship which more or less comes down to the further apart you put them the harder the mizzen can work.  In effect you want the wake of the main to fall to leeward of the mizzen. There is CFD available today to study this that wasn’t available in 1979, and I haven’t done much investigation.  It IS very nice not to have sails overhead in the cockpit.  I& I could stand it, a bimini would could be easily fit, but I am my fathers son! He never had cockpit cushions, and neither do I.

i hope that answers your questions. And my wife used to sail with me and our kids.  She also knew that Red Herring was her only choice because of the emotional attachment I have to the boat.  So she made it work.  At 64 with two bad hips she wasn’t having it.  I hope that now the hips are replaced, she might reconsider.

SHC

 

Steve, thanks for sharing these details.  I can’t ever get enough info about Red Herring,  She has always been a sweet design and it’s good that’s she’s always been in the same family and improved with love.  If I had a spare million, I”d be wanting to give her a sister.  I might even accept the deep draft (necessary for obvious reasons). I love long, lean and low, with light displacement and commensurate small relative sail area.  Red Herring is the epitome of this.

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I've always liked the concept of the Ben Lexcen (yeah, that one) Revolution 38 ... clearly influenced by the Freedoms. Big volume, shallow draft, easy to handle rig. 

 

This one (borrowed photo) seems to sail a lot in most conditions, and gets there eventually.

 

image.png.f33b5ded63efe649e42e7bc745244df6.png

 

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