Alaris

Do split rigs still have a place with modern sail handling systems?

Recommended Posts

I’m looking at a lot of boats that are available in either sloop or yawl/ketch (Bristols, Hinckleys). I know a lot of the asserted benefits of a split rig relate to ease of sail handling.

Consider for argument’s sake that one or more of the currently available sail handling systems (Dutchman, leisurefurl, full battens, lazy jacks, whatever) would make your crew capable of handling the sails of a larger sloop rig.

With that in mind, would you keep the split rig? Would you pick a split rig over a sloop? Many boats in the type I’m considering that started as split rigs are now sloops (we did this to our BI 40 in the 80s).

How about this: if you’ve got a good enough sail handling system for hoisting and dousing the sails on a sloop, couldn’t the split rig be *more* rather than less work?

(For the purposes of this question, take money out of the equation. Some of these boats need all new sail inventory, running, and standing rigging, so changing the rig could be priced in to the total plan)

 

Edit: One reason I’m asking is that I am a total sucker for the looks of a split rig and think they are much more pretty than a sloop on these classic designs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Split rigs are, generally, not going to be as fast as sloops.  Sail boats, generally, are a slow means of transportation.  If you like the look of a ketch or a schooner, sacrificing half a knot of boat speed for improved aesthetics seems like a good trade.  As far as sail handling, one factor to consider is sheet load.  A split rig will reduce the sheet load on all 3 (or more) sails, reducing the need for big (or any) winches and increasing the likelihood that everyone on board can handle the sails.  And you can fly mizzen staysails, which are immensely satisfying.  On the flip side, most mizzen sails are so small as to be pointless—hence the tendency of folks like yourself to dump the mizzen mast over the side.  I sailed a 27’ boat with a ketch rig, and honestly the mizzen was purely decorative.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before bailing on the mizzen, they replaced it with the mast from an Alberg 30. It had some power, but the decision was later made to add 8’ to the mainmast and remove the mizzen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the time she had a bowsprit that extended the J by several feet. I don’t know, it was before my time. They had fun. But we race her as a sloop today. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yawl rigs only existed for two reason AFAIK - on workboats to weathercock the boat while fishing etc. or as a rule beating thing - CCA didn't measure mizzen staysails.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given that the mizzen is apparently often not used on a split rig, then such boats are effectively being sailed with a very small rig. On a modernish sloop, could one not achieve similar sail handling advantage, but better performance, by changing to a smaller easily handled (sloop) rig for short handed ocean sailing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check rigging costs... winter storage around here can mean pulling sticks every year.  Some charge a bit less for the mizzen but they still charge... every year, twice a year...

 Plus extra shrouds, turnbuckles, terminals, sails, halyards...

Cheers, 

              W.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it all comes down to intended use.  If you plan to move fast go to weather alot etc then it's going to be hard to justify anything other than a sloop or cat haha.  On the other hand everything from classic boats to more modern Amels have split rigs that are easy to use in most conditions and the sacrifices are minimum.  The up side of old timey classic looking boats is you tend to race other old timey classic looking boats so hard to loose in that.

The point where it's gets overcomplicated and harder to use is the cutoff. I can say a staysail schooner looks great but dealing with 5 working sails is a bit of work.  I think a good extreme example of the split rigs and logic behind is Beawolf.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thankfully we don’t pull rigs around here... ever, unless something breaks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there anything prettier than a Yawl with overhangs? Concordia, Bolero? 

Sailing under jib and jigger when the breeze is up is the simplest reeling solution. Just drop the main entirely.

 

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Things to consider:   How much distance between main & mizzen? more is better. How hard is it to move around mizzen rigging to use the aft deck areas? How does miz mast impact cockpit area? Is miz independently stayed or does it require a triatic? How well does boat balance without the miz set? (check out pics of 'Dorade' in her current racing sails)

Benefits of miz mast: you can set a great awning. Good place for radar scanner. Great support when taking sextant shots. Reaching stsl's can be awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not race and my boat is a pudgy, 4ksb, but it is a cat yawl with the unstayed mizzen mast stepped at the aft end, out of the cockpit. For me, the benefits of a mizzen are that is keeps my boat from hunting at anchor, and it eases reefing the mainsail. I don't have to start the engine and motor into the wind. I just sheet-in the mizzen and lower/reef/unreef/raise the main. I am a big fan of a mizzen. Again, not a racer.

Snubs

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's been so long since we owned a yawl that I almost forgot how much the mizzen settles you at anchor. Very useful in crowded anchorages. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Alaris said:

I’m looking at a lot of boats that are available in either sloop or yawl/ketch (Bristols, Hinckleys). I know a lot of the asserted benefits of a split rig relate to ease of sail handling.

Consider for argument’s sake that one or more of the currently available sail handling systems (Dutchman, leisurefurl, full battens, lazy jacks, whatever) would make your crew capable of handling the sails of a larger sloop rig.

With that in mind, would you keep the split rig? Would you pick a split rig over a sloop? Many boats in the type I’m considering that started as split rigs are now sloops (we did this to our BI 40 in the 80s).

How about this: if you’ve got a good enough sail handling system for hoisting and dousing the sails on a sloop, couldn’t the split rig be *more* rather than less work?

(For the purposes of this question, take money out of the equation. Some of these boats need all new sail inventory, running, and standing rigging, so changing the rig could be priced in to the total plan)

 

Edit: One reason I’m asking is that I am a total sucker for the looks of a split rig and think they are much more pretty than a sloop on these classic designs. 

I sailed a swan 65 ketch for many years,  plenty fast 

the fastest transatlantic trip ive done was on a ketch 

the defect  is that the mizzen , ketch , rigging takes up too much valuable deck space

With all that mizzen rigging  Walkways are full of Head bangers , toe stubbers and clutter ..it doesn’t work on small boats 

Perhaps a 50 footer would be the smallest 

also remember all the windage when docking 

bring plenty of fenders 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

It's been so long since we owned a yawl that I almost forgot how much the mizzen settles you at anchor. Very useful in crowded anchorages. 

True, but anchor riding sails work well too. I'm surprised I don't see them more often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Easier to drop the roller jib  and reduce windage when the breeze comes on 

adding windage with a riding sail is not optimum 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do split rigs still have a place with modern sail handling systems?

 

Apparently. Classic boats are popular here in the Northeast and if anything, the popularity grows. The owners have the means to put anything on them including modern sailhandling.

 

Yet there are more yawls on the coast of Maine than you could shake a stick at (seriously). And ketches and schooners. But these old rigs are design elements of classic boats.  Why would they change them? If new-age speed is the reason, you've gotta do a lot more to boats designed decades ago than just change the rig. Start with the hull, get rid of that and bolt the deck to a J 35. Oh wait a minute, J35's are classics now. :)

 

I've got 20 years with a yawl and I wouldn't take the mizzen rig off. I can see little gain in speed and a big loss of much of what makes sailing an old boat like mine, fun. I think I've seen more people try to add a mizzen to a sloop than I've heard taking the mizzen off a yawl. 

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kris, one of the things I was pondering was that the Bristol I have my eyes on was originally available as a ketch with a deck stepped mizzen and the only modification to the original rig is a shorter boom. So I get where they are coming from. “What if...”

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

 

I've got 20 years with a yawl and I wouldn't take the mizzen rig off. I can see little gain in speed and a big loss of much of what makes sailing an old boat like mine, fun. I think I've seen more people try to add a mizzen to a sloop than I've heard taking the mizzen off a yawl. 

 

 

There was the classic S&S Good News I sailed on twice. Once as a 66' yawl, then as a 60' sloop. If ever there was a misbegotten modification, that was it. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

There was the classic S&S Good News I sailed on twice. Once as a 66' yawl, then as a 60' sloop. If ever there was a misbegotten modification, that was it. 

 

Echoes of The Card

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to put it out there....

A classic boat is expensive period.  Yes there are people who buy them use them hard and walk away, but for any boat stewards who try to maintain them for the next ones they are a considerable jump in labor time and money than any other boat.  It doesn't really matter what it's made out of when you are in that classic pedigree or something like it be ready to dump the $$$.

But for the crazy among us it's worth it...

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mean you're supposed to put a sail on that rear stick? I thought it was just the helmsman's back rest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Willin' said:

You mean you're supposed to put a sail on that rear stick? I thought it was just the helmsman's back rest.

Radar and wind generator holder if you're a hard -bitten cruiser.  

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

I think it all comes down to intended use.  If you plan to move fast go to weather alot etc then it's going to be hard to justify anything other than a sloop or cat haha.  On the other hand everything from classic boats to more modern Amels have split rigs that are easy to use in most conditions and the sacrifices are minimum.  The up side of old timey classic looking boats is you tend to race other old timey classic looking boats so hard to loose in that.

The point where it's gets overcomplicated and harder to use is the cutoff. I can say a staysail schooner looks great but dealing with 5 working sails is a bit of work.  I think a good extreme example of the split rigs and logic behind is Beawolf.

Interesting that Amel have now abandoned ketches with their new 50. I love the looks of a split rig but a sloop, or cutter or ideally Solent for longer distance cruising, with good sail handling gear makes sense to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Split rigs with two shorter masts also help if the ICW with its fixed bridges and relatively low clearances may one day be a part of your plans...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, jewingiv said:

Split rigs with two shorter masts also help if the ICW with its fixed bridges and relatively low clearances may one day be a part of your plans...

This is one thought. I don’t necessarily plan on the ICW but my local bridge is 75’ so larger sloops won’t fit. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more benefit to a mizzen; heaving to is simple. Just sheet-in the mizzen and secure the tiller. You can drop all other sails for ease, or repair, or to reef. Because I don't have a head-sail, the mizzen is essential for heaving to. I think of my mizzen as my training wheels and dopey autopilot who will hold the boat head to wind while I unfuck my situation. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, snubber said:

One more benefit to a mizzen; heaving to is simple. Just sheet-in the mizzen and secure the tiller. You can drop all other sails for ease, or repair, or to reef. Because I don't have a head-sail, the mizzen is essential for heaving to. I think of my mizzen as my training wheels and dopey autopilot who will hold the boat head to wind while I unfuck my situation. 

Don't you end up going backwards head to wind when you do this ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Don't you end up going backwards head to wind when you do this ?

 

My yawl just sits pointed a little ahead of perpendicular to the wind, and heads dead down wind at about a half a knot in a 15 knot breeze, like this: 

308792977_hoveto15kts.thumb.jpg.8578b7180320b5c07f2394b344cf92f1.jpg

It won't sit pointing dead to windward unless I'm on anchor or mooring. Once free (and if the mizzen is sheeted flat),  it heaves to whether you want to or not. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Don't you end up going backwards head to wind when you do this ?

Yes. Hove to, my boat slides to windward at around .7 to 1 knots, depending on wind strength. She will not fore-reach or make progress to windward. The bow sits around 30 to 45 degrees off the wind. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, snubber said:

Yes. Hove to, my boat slides to windward at around .7 to 1 knots, depending on wind strength. She will not fore-reach or make progress to windward. The bow sits around 30 to 45 degrees off the wind. 

Aren't you worried for your rudder ?

Going backward in more than 25 - 30 knots of wind is something that would scare me. Heaving to with a jib, at least you are going sideways which is safe IMHO.

It might be cultural but here we are taught to always keep moving forward at least fast enough to keep the rudder efficient.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Aren't you worried for your rudder ?

Going backward in more than 25 - 30 knots of wind is something that would scare me. Heaving to with a jib, at least you are going sideways which is safe IMHO.

It might be cultural but here we are taught to always keep moving forward at least fast enough to keep the rudder efficient.

Short answer: Yes, but just a little. My situation is unique.

1. Small boat. It's a 20 foot shaprie weighing about 2500 lbs.

2. Sailing in relatively protected waters near-shore in the Great Lakes (between US and Canada). So I am usually 10-20 nms from shore, and always close enough to duck-in and hide from bad weather. If the weather forecast is questionable, I stay at anchor. I have been caught in winds approaching 30 kts. There is nothing good about those conditions for me or my boat. But I would, if needed, heave to and not be overly concerned about the rudder. 

3. The rudder is a beast, hung on a skeg/full keel. I welded my rudder blade from two sheets of steel, with an end plate, and welded that to a steel shaft. Everything is coated in fiberglass and epoxy. I sail in fresh water, so rust is less an issue. The rudder assembly rides on a bottom mount/skeg (about 8mm thick stainless steel), which is through-bolted to the bottom of the keel), and is held in a tube (above the water line). It is heavy and over built.

4. Thus far, I only heave to with the mizzen when I am reefing the main, so at most I am drifting downwind for about 5 minutes. I have heaved-to in winds in the mid-20 kts, and never felt it was dangerous for my rudder. My other option is to run the engine a bit, slowly ahead, but the motion is less comfortable than drifting a bit down wind. And lowering the outboard, starting it, setting the throttle all add steps to a fairly simple reefing process. 

It's a small boat, close to shore, with a beastly rudder. Might not work for everyone. 

Snubs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, snubber said:

Short answer: Yes, but just a little. My situation is unique.

1. Small boat. It's a 20 foot shaprie weighing about 2500 lbs.

2. Sailing in relatively protected waters near-shore in the Great Lakes (between US and Canada). So I am usually 10-20 nms from shore, and always close enough to duck-in and hide from bad weather. If the weather forecast is questionable, I stay at anchor. I have been caught in winds approaching 30 kts. There is nothing good about those conditions for me or my boat. But I would, if needed, heave to and not be overly concerned about the rudder. 

3. The rudder is a beast, hung on a skeg/full keel. I welded my rudder blade from two sheets of steel, with an end plate, and welded that to a steel shaft. Everything is coated in fiberglass and epoxy. I sail in fresh water, so rust is less an issue. The rudder assembly rides on a bottom mount/skeg (about 8mm thick stainless steel), which is through-bolted to the bottom of the keel), and is held in a tube (above the water line). It is heavy and over built.

4. Thus far, I only heave to with the mizzen when I am reefing the main, so at most I am drifting downwind for about 5 minutes. I have heaved-to in winds in the mid-20 kts, and never felt it was dangerous for my rudder. My other option is to run the engine a bit, slowly ahead, but the motion is less comfortable than drifting a bit down wind. And lowering the outboard, starting it, setting the throttle all add steps to a fairly simple reefing process. 

It's a small boat, close to shore, with a beastly rudder. Might not work for everyone. 

Snubs

Yes, I can understand that. TBH in these circumstances I just go forward slowly with just the jib and the mainsheet eased out. Most boats will be stable with the tiller lashed more or less to leeward

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Alaris said:

Echoes of The Card

I'm not familiar. Is there a good story there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

I'm not familiar. Is there a good story there?

The short version is that The Card, a Farr maxi ketch, got a little too close to a spectator boat during one of the starts in the 89/90 Whitbread and lost her mizzen. She sailed the leg as a sloop.

297668A6-EDED-4B02-B2F9-A792655DE231.jpeg.601e8479efde6a659fed371298a6898c.jpeg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Alaris said:

The short version is that The Card, a Farr maxi ketch, got a little too close to a spectator boat during one of the starts in the 89/90 Whitbread and lost her mizzen. She sailed the leg as a sloop.

297668A6-EDED-4B02-B2F9-A792655DE231.jpeg.601e8479efde6a659fed371298a6898c.jpeg

if memory still serves me, it was on the start of the leg from NZ to Uruguay.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had a Herreshoff Rocinante for years, loved the split rig, she was a magical boat, beautiful and dream to sail.  Used jib and mizzen lots in big blows.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you value handling under sail (which has gone out of fashion with reliable and cheap diesel auxiliaries) then a mizzen enhances that value. This is the real case for a yawl - mizzen big enough to add to handling, but not expected to be a big part of drive. The biggest downside of a mizzen - all the extra rigging to maintain and trip over - is an obsolete problem: It is very easy to have an unstayed mizzen with modern materials. Heaving to easily and surely, reefing in a controlled and leisurely way, settling at anchor, backing down under sail - all made easy with a mizzen. In a large boat, splitting the rig has the additional virtue of keeping individual sail sizes manageable. 

Now, the sail we ought to be talking about leaving off is the jib. 

25WC2kQ.jpg

 

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or take it to the logical conclusion?

full?d=1493443587

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well that wasn't the conclusion I came to, though certainly different rigs for different missions. That big a boat and perhaps splitting the sail evenly to reduce single sail size is the major consideration. For weatherly performance you really want a una rig, becomes less important as soon as you start the sheets a bit. Becomes important again when running deep.

The mizzen added to a sloop suffers from the exhaust of two sails (or a single slotted airfoil would be more correct aerodynamically). On a cat schooner the spacing spoils the slotted airfoil to some extent so the L/D of the rig will suffer. You are also unlikely to leave the aft sail up at anchor, or be able to back it to back down or control heading while stationary like you can with a small mizzen. 

What boat is that? Curious about the luff arrangement. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/21/2020 at 6:17 AM, Cruisin Loser said:

Is there anything prettier than a Yawl with overhangs? Concordia, Bolero? 

Sailing under jib and jigger when the breeze is up is the simplest reeling solution. Just drop the main entirely.

 

Sailed many years on a Columbia 50 yawl, the yawl rig added some real balance in a blow while keeping things manageable.

There were several Swan 65’s that were sloops while the rest had mizzen rigs Off the breeze the mizzen helped a little but once again provided manageable balance in a blow.

And off course along came Blakey with Steinlager that did upset the ketch to sloop movement but the mizzen on Steinlager had quite a separation from the main rig as I recall.

Mari Cha another that wasn’t exactly sluggish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess if there's a particular bridge you are worried about the reduction in air draft could be useful?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Navig8tor said:

Sailed many years on a Columbia 50 yawl, the yawl rig added some real balance in a blow while keeping things manageable.

There were several Swan 65’s that were sloops while the rest had mizzen rigs Off the breeze the mizzen helped a little but once again provided manageable balance in a blow.

And off course along came Blakey with Steinlager that did upset the ketch to sloop movement but the mizzen on Steinlager had quite a separation from the main rig as I recall.

Mari Cha another that wasn’t exactly sluggish.

Don't get confused by that generation of big Whitbread maxis. That's was a rating frig.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, DDW said:

Well that wasn't the conclusion I came to, though certainly different rigs for different missions. That big a boat and perhaps splitting the sail evenly to reduce single sail size is the major consideration. For weatherly performance you really want a una rig, becomes less important as soon as you start the sheets a bit. Becomes important again when running deep.

The mizzen added to a sloop suffers from the exhaust of two sails (or a single slotted airfoil would be more correct aerodynamically). On a cat schooner the spacing spoils the slotted airfoil to some extent so the L/D of the rig will suffer. You are also unlikely to leave the aft sail up at anchor, or be able to back it to back down or control heading while stationary like you can with a small mizzen. 

What boat is that? Curious about the luff arrangement. 

On the swan 65 we sailed with a variety of rating certificates and mizzen configurations

in a breeze , Sardinia , mizzen stepped, mast naked was fastest 

for carribean regattas like Antigua mizzen out , sloop rig was the fastest 

for coastal races ketch rigged was fastest 

 

D41DAD94-A095-48E1-97B8-CE74A9D61A82.jpeg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, European Bloke said:

Don't get confused by that generation of big Whitbread maxis. That's was a rating frig.

As I recall it was less a rating thing than an optimised sail plan for the conditions sailed and the winds being on average being aft of the beam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, DDW said:

What boat is that? Curious about the luff arrangement. 

Magie Noire by the excellent @Tanton Y_M

It is a 2 plies sail if I remember to get it more aerodynamic.

Sadly this boat is rotting away in a field in France.  If I had the money and energy, I would be trying to save her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Navig8tor said:

As I recall it was less a rating thing than an optimised sail plan for the conditions sailed and the winds being on average being aft of the beam.

Steinlager was 84’ LOA which I seem to recall was longer than she could have been as a sloop with the same sail area, i.e. a rating decision. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

On the swan 65 we sailed with a variety of rating certificates and mizzen configurations

in a breeze , Sardinia , mizzen stepped, mast naked was fastest 

for carribean regattas like Antigua mizzen out , sloop rig was the fastest 

for coastal races ketch rigged was fastest 

 

D41DAD94-A095-48E1-97B8-CE74A9D61A82.jpeg

STARBOARD!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, slug zitski said:

On the swan 65 we sailed with a variety of rating certificates and mizzen configurations

in a breeze , Sardinia , mizzen stepped, mast naked was fastest 

for carribean regattas like Antigua mizzen out , sloop rig was the fastest 

for coastal races ketch rigged was fastest 

 

Fastest relative to rating? A naked mast is never fast in an absolute sense. But I'll use the opportunity to point out that if the mizzen is unstayed, it has a lot less drag than a Marconi mizzen mast (and less that a roller furled jib, too). 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Alaris said:

The short version is that The Card, a Farr maxi ketch, got a little too close to a spectator boat during one of the starts in the 89/90 Whitbread and lost her mizzen. She sailed the leg as a sloop.

297668A6-EDED-4B02-B2F9-A792655DE231.jpeg.601e8479efde6a659fed371298a6898c.jpeg

LOL, First sailboat race I ever saw on the news.....  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Alaris said:

Steinlager was 84’ LOA which I seem to recall was longer than she could have been as a sloop with the same sail area, i.e. a rating decision. 

Bit of both point of sail and rating.

From Yachting World

Steinlager 2 was designed by Bruce Farr with significant input from Blake, who was able to draw on his own experience having taken part in all four previous Whitbread races. Farr initially produced a ‘base’ design following tank testing at the Wolfson Unit, the costs of which were shared between four syndicates.

steinlager-2-sir-peter-blake-boat-aerial-running-shot-tall-2017-millennium-cup-credit-jeff-brown-breed-media

Steinlager 2 racing at the 2017 Millennium Cup. Photo: Jeff Brown / Breed Media

Four designs were then developed to suit the different needs of each syndicate to create Steinlager 2Fisher & Paykel (another Kiwi entry, skippered by Grant Dalton), The Cardand Merit.

It was initially intended that they would all be sloop rigged but, as this race would include more downwind sailing than the previous races, Blake asked Farr to investigate the relative speed potential of a ketch. Farr’s research revealed that a ketch had potential to get around more quickly – but Blake then discovered that Dalton also favoured a ketch.

Blake went one stage further by suggesting that a fractional ketch might have a rating advantage over a masthead ketch and he persuaded a reluctant Farr to alter Steinlager’s design again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DDW said:

Fastest relative to rating? A naked mast is never fast in an absolute sense. But I'll use the opportunity to point out that if the mizzen is unstayed, it has a lot less drag than a Marconi mizzen mast (and less that a roller furled jib, too). 

Windage receives a rating benefit 

 

it was judged the this windage benefit,  plus measuring with smaller headsails,  produced the most favorable rating for high wind ,windward,  leeward regattas 

The boAt also sailed with piston hank headsails ...no foil

I don’t know how modern rating rules work 

This was in the early 1980s, the race team was from the courageous 12m program 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Tanton Y_M said:

DDW.

Panoramic.

1983 Magie Noire TYD#834.

MagieNoiretxt1.jpg

MagieNoiretxt2.jpg

MagieNoiretxt3.jpg

MagieNoiretxt4.jpg

834wing.jpg

834gaspl.jpg

Suction cup keel

best the stick with an L profile 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Th Apex 850 will be in no danger of hitting the bridges on the Intercoastal. With 28' draft she couldn't get near them! Probably never see it in the Pacific? The Bridge of the Americas is 201'.

Yves,

An intriguing design. Most of the controlled testing done on soft sails suggests that if the mast is small enough compared to the sail chord, The benefit of shaped masts and double luffs diminishes to inconsequential. You allude to that in your article. The sail section on Magie indicates a mast thickness of about 10% which is large. It would be interesting to compare to a single surface sail and round mast of <4% chord (about what it is on my boat). The comparison used to be prohibitively expensive wind tunnel work, but I think now could be done inexpensively with CFD. Carbon has changed the game in unstayed masts. 

31,000 lbs in a 70' boat with an interior finish is quite an accomplishment. Was she ever properly weighed to see if those targets where hit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aerodynamically, a high aspect sloop rig is more more efficient from a L/D perspective than a split rig.  Modern sail handling (Powered furling and powered winches, etc) now make it possible for a small crew to handle almost any sized rig.  See any of the new mega sloops as proof.  So the reasons to consider a split rig come down to meeting more “pragmatic” owners requirements (ie looks, air draft, lower CE due to shoal draft needs, etc.). They can also provide “side benefits/options” like at anchor, or when reducing sail area, that a pure sloop can’t.

 

But there’s a reason a 787 is a monoplane with a high aspect ratio wing, or that 99% of modern race boats are sloops...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Crash said:

But there’s a reason a 787 is a monoplane with a high aspect ratio wing

Sure, but as any 787 sailor will tell you, the fun really starts at the top mark

image.png.beb3e941d3e0a4d61cee1f27bff61f6a.png

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, weightless said:

Sure, but as any 787 sailor will tell you, the fun really starts at the top mark

image.png.beb3e941d3e0a4d61cee1f27bff61f6a.png

I thought the saying was nothing goes to weather like a 747, not 787

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alaris,

I think some of it comes down to how you plan to use the boat. I had a Freedom 40 Cat Ketch and one of the things that I really liked was that there were a lot of options for shortening sail. More so with a ketch/yawl with one or two headsails. This can be the difference between, as Pat Riley would say, "not good" offshore and "not bad." My current sloop has basically 4 options. Jib w/reef, Jib w/2nd reef, no jib, bare pole. There have been times when I wished I could just balance the rig on a reach with a mizzen and headsail.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Crash said:

Aerodynamically, a high aspect sloop rig is more more efficient from a L/D perspective than a split rig.  Modern sail handling (Powered furling and powered winches, etc) now make it possible for a small crew to handle almost any sized rig.  See any of the new mega sloops as proof.  So the reasons to consider a split rig come down to meeting more “pragmatic” owners requirements 

The primary and secondary electrical winches on the modern sloop I just helped deliver cost over $60k.....not sure on the electrical furler.

Convince comes at a cost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never said it was cheap :P just possible.

Personally, the first “big boat” I ever raced was a Luders 44ft yawl at Navy.  I have a soft spot for split rigs.  My dream boat is a gaff rigged topsail schooner...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Crash said:

I never said it was cheap :P just possible.

Personally, the first “big boat” I ever raced was a Luders 44ft yawl at Navy.  I have a soft spot for split rigs.  My dream boat is a gaff rigged topsail schooner...

They don't point Staysail Schooner all the way go modern..haha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They pointed great compared to the square riggers that came before!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

having just bought one of these......

2020090711535f5602fe69275.jpg

I am assuming that no rig will make it shift in anything under a force 5

but I am a patient man

 

D

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want best efficiency per square foot of sail cloth, don't buy a Yawl or Ketch.

If you want a boat that gives you sail choices, and Good places to mount stuff like Radars then consider them. 

  • Being able to sail with jib and mizzen and not bother with the Main allows small crew in heavier winds for ease of passage or just daysailing with the wife
  • Flying a Mizzen Staysail is a  pleasant diversion, and far easier than a spinnaker, and will roll most sloops on a beam -Broad reach
  • Flying them together, with a staysail under spinnaker gets your active halyard count up to 5 if you are concerned with that stuff 
  • With a Yawl's mizzen about 25% of the area of a Main, you can balance the boat to sail with minimal rudder, easing the burden on Autopilot and gaining some speed on a close reach while giving up a bit of dead upwind due to drag. 
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Crash said:

I meant more like this...

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1991/covey-island-schooner-schooner-2915802/

 

Though I like your’s too Dylan:P

If you haven't seen it check out the Lucky Luke schooner in Vietnam thread in WBF.  Amazing build sister ship to Tree of Life.  Not sure whatever happened after Luke passed away. Build was a something else small shop in Vietnam giving Covey Island a run for their money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ishmael said:

It's a classic 3ksb.

sadly you are correct.

last week a 50 footer "round Britain skippered experience yacht" where four men pay to get around the UK in eight weeks - often just for bragging rights

 

if the yacht is not making six knots under sail then they turn the engine on.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, dylan winter said:

sadly you are correct.

last week a 50 footer "round Britain skippered experience yacht" where four men pay to get around the UK in eight weeks - often just for bragging rights

 

if the yacht is not making six knots under sail then they turn the engine on.

How boring. We ghosted out of one of our favourite spots this afternoon, headed home under the foresail only because I was too lazy to raise the main. 2-3 knots gives a lot of time to look for wildlife, birds, have a cup of coffee etc. We only fired up the diesel when we ran right out of wind coming into our home bay & wanted to pick up the mooring. We'll sail/drift along down to maybe 1 knot if we've time in hand.

My boat has a very inefficient rig judged by the ability to go to weather. But it's very easy to handle and I'm not in a hurry. If I am - I fire up the diesel.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

But it's very easy to handle and I'm not in a hurry. If I am - I fire up the diesel.

FKT

Your "in a hurry" speed is 6 knots? Be still my beating heart...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Se7en said:

Your "in a hurry" speed is 6 knots? Be still my beating heart...

My 'flat chat' speed is 7-8 knots. Which I almost never bother doing. Simple 3 sail rig.

2 litres/hour burn rate at 5 knots under power. Why burn 2X as much for another 2-3 knots...

Shrug. I like poking about in the fringes of the waterways. You can go faster but unless you've got a catamaran, tri or a hull with a retractable keel, you can't go where I can go.

In a lot of ways Dylan's Fisher would be a good choice of boat for southern Tasmania.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

My 'flat chat' speed is 7-8 knots. Which I almost never bother doing. Simple 3 sail rig.

I was just taking the piss. The idea of being in a hurry on a yacht amused me. That's a decent speed for your waterline length, clearly you have too much horsepower.

I really want to make it to Port Davey on a boat well equiped enough to carry dive gear, kayaks etc and stay there a few weeks. I've been blown out a couple of times on deliveries, and didn't make it there on our crusing yacht. I'm seriously considering a motor boat to be able to cruise Ferneaux and do the trip to Port Davey. A motor sailer would do me fine, with the sails as stabilisers as much as propulsion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Crash said:

But there’s a reason a 787 is a monoplane with a high aspect ratio wing, or that 99% of modern race boats are sloops...

Question is, why aren't modern race boats una rigs? Of course the answer is the fast ones are, the more nuanced answer is that many race boats do not get to select their apparent wind speed with a couple of throttle levers. Sloops are like a 787 with the leading edge slat deployed all the time....high lift but also high drag.

And, even a 787 has a vertical stabilizer (mizzen) for control and trim B).

image.png.beb3e941d3e0a4d61cee1f27bff61f6a.png.6f8c8346c3b546b3e348126e5f6e0831.png

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DDW, good points!  Though, because you have a rudder (the horizontal stab below the water), you can dispense with the one in the airstream and not pay the drag penalty for 2 airfoils in the airstream...as 99% of the time, the horizontal stab is creating lift in the opposite direction of the wing...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DDW said:

Question is, why aren't modern race boats una rigs? Of course the answer is the fast ones are, the more nuanced answer is that many race boats do not get to select their apparent wind speed with a couple of throttle levers. Sloops are like a 787 with the leading edge slat deployed all the time....high lift but also high drag.

And, even a 787 has a vertical stabilizer (mizzen) for control and trim B).

image.thumb.png.b0e6836f624e445eaa997c38c0d3fa57.png

FIFY: if it's a mizzen it needs laundry. I suspect that if 787's often operated with AWA > 90 they'd have parachutes, too.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now it is starting to look a lot like my boat - we have both main asym and mizzen staysail for a total of 2400 sq ft downwind - if we could figure out how to keep it all flying. Sorry no mizzen laundry in the picture - we only had 4 crew that day and had to gybe every 10 minutes to keep out of the mud!

 

vgeFRzD.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Crash said:

DDW, good points!  Though, because you have a rudder (the horizontal stab below the water), you can dispense with the one in the airstream and not pay the drag penalty for 2 airfoils in the airstream...as 99% of the time, the horizontal stab is creating lift in the opposite direction of the wing...

 

Two comments on that: the foil in the water only works when there is apparent water flow (e.g., not at anchor or while in irons, or heaving to); and like sailboat rudders and mizzens, horizontal stabs are almost always designed to be lifting - there is no requirement that they be at negative AOA for stability, only that their lift slope be greater than the wing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites